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On July 26 2011 18:53 Talin wrote:
I think your perception of the real world is somewhat warped by the media. You choose to accept the things that are sly and borderline nefarious because you're convinced that it's somehow "normal" and that it's pointless to expect the scene to grow in another direction. But this quite simply isn't true - it's just that people making money off of it would want you to believe it is and to meekly accept it as a part of the sport you follow as either "something that's perfectly normal" or "something that's ugly, but ultimately still normal".
I think it's important that the people who are in the position to do so (which is to say the fans who aren't financially or otherwise tied to any of the organizations) realize that "business" is NOT something that should have free reign over Starcraft and to keep overly "ambitious" organizations in check by dishing out criticism that stings (and stings very very hard) every time they make a move that compromises the fairness, integrity, manners and standards of good behaviour that we have and that we expect. In all honesty, this whole issue with Puma in itself isn't that all big or that horrible, but it's as good place to make a stand and a point as any. And moreover, EG's reputation had already been damaged (in SC2 too, let alone other games) - with Puma, they've overstepped their bounds one too many times.
Comparing Starcraft to professional sports is a case of apples and oranges if there's ever been one. Arguments based on analogies between professional sports and e-sports are by default very weak and very wrong - because there quite simply isn't all that much that football and Starcraft have in common. That's an understatement - there's almost NOTHING that they have in common. The only thing they have in common are common descriptors like "sport", "game" and "competition" - which just isn't enough to back up any of the arguments that usually rest on these analogies.
If you want to look at the "real world", look at the actual e-sports and all the attempts to grow an e-sports scene in the west, because for us, that is the real world. Football and basketball with the ridiculous amounts of money going around everywhere, billions of followers and hundreds of years of history are actually NOT the real world relative to what we're talking about. It's as far from the real world as anything could conceivably be. In some ways this is unfortunate, because we would want Starcraft to grow to that point, even though it won't go anywhere close in the conceivable future. In some ways it is very fortunate because we get to lay the foundations and do things differently and do things better.
Going back to the real world of e-sports, if you look at every serious western attempt at turning a competitive game scene into a "professional" (and I use the term loosely) sport, you'll see a pattern emerging. In each case, someone at some point was willing to dump money in it. Maybe even too much money for the time. In each case, the fledgling scene turned into a predatory business environment. Two to five years later, what was built initially imploded to the point of no recovery, bridges were burned, and many of the "businesses" were left scraping for money to pay for the contracts - yes, the same contracts that so many people seem to think are the solutions to everything. "What's the problem TSL, just give them contracts" has been nonchalantly posted so many times so far.
The real problem is that this predatory, competitive environment that so many people are so willing to welcome to Starcraft is actually killing e-sports (yep, there I've said it). It has killed before. It will kill again. If Starcraft too goes in the direction EG would have it, the instant gratification direction, the "WE have the money NOW and FUCK YOU" direction, the direction where one team or organization causes harm to another outside the real playing ground (the game) for profit or to "get ahead" - it's going to happen again. It just will.
This isn't the kind of game where you play survival of the fittest and win - when you do that, everyone loses. And I understand (reading through a lot of General forum threads as well) that this is an ideological, borderline religious issue for some people, but for once realize that Starcraft isn't a "market". It just can't sustain competition of that sort, there's nothing here that can feed the petty business greed and ambition of organizations like EG in the long run. The only competition that can go on in Stracraft is competition in the actual game. Teams and organizations aren't really supposed to be competitors at this point, but allies - in nourishing and growing Starcraft. If you screw them over, you screw over your own future.
And see this is the big problem with EG - they just don't care, and unfortunately they can afford to not care. Because they have this whole "e-sport organization" infrastructure, they have Justin Wong on the side and in a year or two or five they can just jump ship to the next hit e-sport title or whatever they smell as a perspective one. The point is that their fate isn't tied to the fate of SC2 (like TSL's is), and they behave accordingly. This is why every time I see EG, Fnatic, SK and Complexity involved in something, there's this big alarm bell going off in my head. I didn't really want to drag down the names of the other 3, because to my knowledge they've done nothing wrong in SC2 yet, but they all function on the same principle. EG is here because SC2 is the next big thing, not because Alex Garfield is so passionate and cares about the game or the community or the scene. In a way, they're only here to leech - as AG said himself, he's running a business. Business is essentially all about leeching while giving as little as possible.
On the other hand, a team like TSL is made up entirely from people who are passionate and care about Starcraft (including coach Lee). Teams like TSL create and build what SC2 is as a competitive game, getting almost nothing in return at this point in time. That's why a team like TSL is ten times more valuable to SC2 than a business organization like EG.
And indeed, before we've had SK Telecom and Samsung in Brood War, Brood War was the same - it was a bunch of guys giving out of their own pockets and scraping for small sponsorships to live, sleep, eat and train together so that they can compete in the game that they love. Just read up a bit on the 4U part of history of a team now known as SKT1. Big corporations moved in and established their own teams when the time was right and when investing so much into BW was justified - and once again, they didn't create a predatory business environment where everything goes, but they decided to operate as allies (KeSPA) to regulate and grow the sport together.
So instead of comparing SC2 to football and basketball, why not look up to the ONLY working electronic sport in human history that has long-term popularity and success? As far as applicable knowledge goes, I think we can learn much more from KeSPA and Brood War than we can from what goes on in the business world of football and basketball.
As far as business in e-sports goes, I would also like to point the difference between a petty business that runs on sponsorships and thin air (EG) to a real company that supports not only their own Starcraft team, but actively supports the scene as well. I'm talking about FXOpen - FXOpen is big enough that they don't have to be sly and underhanded in their workings to make their presence known, and they're big enough that they can contribute to the scene beyond what benefits them and their team. I don't think that there's a doubt in anyone's mind that FXOpen could have the SC2 dream team before tomorrow if they wanted to - but there's no reason for them to want that. They want their involvement with Starcraft to pay off in the long run, and that can only happen if Starcraft itself grows.
With EG it's the opposite. They technically bought Puma, a player they neither really need nor can really support. If they keep him in Korea, he's isolated from the rest of his "team", as well as isolated from a good practice environment. If they keep him in the US, his skill will plummet down faster than EG's reputation these past few days. The only reason they actually got Puma was for the sake of getting a top player alone (they've done the same with Idra and Demuslim before). They only care about the image of Puma parading in an EG shirt as a top Korean player. If he even happens to win a foreign tournament or two on top of that before his skill and career goes downhill (much like Idra's and Demuslim's, funny that), that's just a nice bonus feat.
Why do you think they got Grubby of all people? To support his growth as an SC2 player or to leech off of his WC3/e-sport legend image?
Yeah.
PS. See I can write longer posts than Alex Garfield.
I agree completely with the principal of what you're saying.
Although I dont think EG are the evil organization you're making them out to be. I think they're just figuring out how to do things in this young industry, the same way everyone else is.
I dont think they've done anything particularly malicious in this case either, they just made some errors in judgement. The reaction of coach Lee and the internets may have been kneejerk, but it wasnt exactly unpredictable.
Its just a learning process for everyone involved. TSL know they should tread more carefully in future and the Korean teams now understand one of the ramifications of Esports growth.
Puma IMO is blameless in all of this and the most important thing is that everything works out for him.
But I agree with your point that we dont have to resign ourselves to Esports becoming a corrupt industry just because the same has happened to other growing industries. Esports is a young industry being built by younger generations, we dont have to do things the same way as older, stupider generations.
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On July 26 2011 21:57 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? The only thing EG neglected to consider is the relative noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase. It hasnt been around long enough for this type of stuff to become par for the course re: player transfers. You all will get over it by the 10th time it happens.
Is this the sort of "growing up" that we want in e-sports? Is it not our responsibility or privilege to show that this corruption of e-sports isn't tolerated? Or are you suggesting that we should just grow up fast, and just accept and stand back while our SC2 proscene degenerates into the contract-reneging, player-poaching, transfer-politicising type of environment that plagues many modern sports?
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On July 26 2011 22:01 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:57 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? The only thing EG neglected to consider is the relative noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase. It hasnt been around long enough for this type of stuff to become par for the course re: player transfers. You all will get over it by the 10th time it happens. Is this the sort of "growing up" that we want in e-sports? Is it not our responsibility or privilege to show that this corruption of e-sports isn't tolerated? Or are you suggesting that we should just grow up fast, and just accept and stand back while our SC2 proscene degenerates into the contract-reneging, player-poaching, transfer-politicising type of environment that plagues many modern sports?
Wow, some guy running a gaming ORG talked to a player he was interested in signing. BIG DEAL. The player gets to play where he wants to play. What would you have done if they did talk to the team first and the Pum,a left anyways. Probably scream shenanigans all the same but with a different twist. Your only pissed because he was Korean and you think Koreans are obligated to be 'loyal' or something.
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On July 26 2011 21:45 stratmatt wrote:
Love all the sc2 'fans' treating puma like a litle kid who cant make his own decision because hes south korean and obligated to be 'loyal' to his team. Such latent racism... it makes me sick.
Hey, another stupid american who knows nothing of loyalty or racism.
User was warned for this post
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On July 26 2011 22:01 Spitfire wrote:
Although I dont think EG are the evil organization you're making them out to be. I think they're just figuring out how to do things in this young industry, the same way everyone else is.
There are many things that annoy me about all this, one is that they already knew how things worked:EGalex wrote:
We have already built strong relationships with the management of other Korean professional teams. In fact, over the past month alone, we have been in talks with several Korean teams (read: after speaking with management first, not players first) regarding potential recruitment and collaboration. These managers know who they are, and they know that we have approached their teams honorably and respectfully.
In this case, they just seem to have thought they'd get away with it or I really don't know what they felt was unique with PuMa's position.
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On July 26 2011 22:01 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:57 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? The only thing EG neglected to consider is the relative noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase. It hasnt been around long enough for this type of stuff to become par for the course re: player transfers. You all will get over it by the 10th time it happens. Is this the sort of "growing up" that we want in e-sports? Is it not our responsibility or privilege to show that this corruption of e-sports isn't tolerated? Or are you suggesting that we should just grow up fast, and just accept and stand back while our SC2 proscene degenerates into the contract-reneging, player-poaching, transfer-politicising type of environment that plagues many modern sports?
If this is your idea of corruption, that is just plain sad. You very, very clearly have a warped sense of what actually happened.
People, we should be worried about what is best for the players, not what we can do to help hold back players the most.
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On July 26 2011 21:58 Adila wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? If you made business decisions based on what the "community" thinks, you'd be out of business real quick.
Business that neglect what the community thinks will suffer the consequences...
PLUS there is a reason companies have PR departments or hire PR firms... so, i guess they do think of what other people think... perception is more important than reality...
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I am getting so tired of this discussion. EG did nothing wrong, Mr. Lee acted quickly because of surprise and bitterness. It all skyrocketed into drama-mode all too fast.
EG might have taken a player from a team that had nothing to offer him besides a place to live and good practice, but that is the way an open market functions and we shouldn't be mad or surprised about it.
If EG is at fault for something here it is for believing that anything but the purest way of communicating would be seen as alright by the community.
I really wish that EG had just taken it upon themselves to talk to TSL first instead of letting Puma start the conversation with TSL. That way this might all have been avoided..
You still have a fan in me EG!!
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On July 26 2011 22:07 sp00n- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:45 stratmatt wrote:
Love all the sc2 'fans' treating puma like a litle kid who cant make his own decision because hes south korean and obligated to be 'loyal' to his team. Such latent racism... it makes me sick. Hey, another stupid american who knows nothing of loyalty or racism.
Hey, another smartass who likes to call people 'stupid americans'. Smarter than you br0 
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On July 26 2011 22:09 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 22:01 Spitfire wrote:
Although I dont think EG are the evil organization you're making them out to be. I think they're just figuring out how to do things in this young industry, the same way everyone else is. There are many things that annoy me about all this, one is that they already knew how things worked: Show nested quote +EGalex wrote:
We have already built strong relationships with the management of other Korean professional teams. In fact, over the past month alone, we have been in talks with several Korean teams (read: after speaking with management first, not players first) regarding potential recruitment and collaboration. These managers know who they are, and they know that we have approached their teams honorably and respectfully. In this case, they just seem to have thought they'd get away with it or I really don't know what they felt was unique with PuMa's position.
So instead of doing EG what PuMa wanted, they should disregard that, and do what he didn't want? So many people here seem to have complete tunnel vision about this issue.
Do you listen to the un-signed, non-salaried employee, or do you go to his boss to see if he is interested in finding a much, much better job?
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On July 26 2011 22:10 sjperera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:58 Adila wrote:On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? If you made business decisions based on what the "community" thinks, you'd be out of business real quick. Business that neglect what the community thinks will suffer the consequences... PLUS there is a reason companies have PR departments or hire PR firms... so, i guess they do think of what other people think... perception is more important than reality...
Except most of the SC2 community is ignorant and short sighted, and has little to no power in sc2 business because they don't invest money into it. You can argue that they might lose a little bit of sales from this 'issue", but it's not going to be substantial. I know nobody in real life who refuses to buy products because they dislike a certain sponsor.
As for the PR stuff, what pro teams have one? lol.
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EG went straight to Puma when Lee expected them to talk to him first, and Lee went straight to the press when EG expected him to talk to them first. It's hypocritical for EG to say what Lee did was wrong in that situation. The first step was when EG ran this by Puma, you can say, "It didn't count until Puma asked his coach", but you'd be bullshitting yourself.
About PR guys, they don't make anyone mad, but who's going to believe what they say? I don't believe in them, I respect a real post more, but at least make sure you have yourself convinced of what you're saying before you bring it to TL trying to convince us. One thing I've learned from this is now I understand why NDAs are common practice in all of Blizzard's deals.
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To me the worst part about this is that they only took interest in PuMa once he started turning out really good results, whereas his team had shown interest in him well before then and turned him into a great player. Then he does well and EG swoops in offering him a 'better deal' -- the loyalty from both PuMa and EG is what I dislike. Eventually SC II may turn into soccer where players are bought out left right and center and supporting a team has pretty much no value because they run like menstruation cycles.
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On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:Poll: Team EG0 was already a fan and still am (1969) 43% -1 fan (1818) 40% +1 fan (802) 17% 4589 total votes Your vote: Team EG (Vote): +1 fan
(Vote): -1 fan
(Vote): 0 was already a fan and still am
Wow I guess EG really shit the bed this time. I wouldn't really pay attention to the last category in the poll. Or lay much credence to the title on the first. I think what it really highlights well is the amount of EG hate goin around as a result of their actions.. and boy.. many a hater be hatin.
What I'm really wondering is how this event will affect future dealings with Korean teams as well as subsequent Korean acquisitions. I can imagine coaches putting their players to bed at night filling their ears with horror stories of foreign boogeyman who will come and try to snatch them away.
I wonder if EG has someone like Alex in Korea to fluff the pillows and maybe dab away some of that shit.
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On July 26 2011 21:57 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? The only thing EG neglected to consider is the relative noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase. It hasnt been around long enough for this type of stuff to become par for the course re: player transfers. You all will get over it by the 10th time it happens.
I'd like to compare it with players transfers in football (or soccer as some people seem to call it). Manchester United's manager Alex Ferguson having a casual conversation with Lionel Messi, polling him about maybe joining his club, will be frowned upon by 'the football community', even though similar things have happened not 10, but hundreds of times before. And the European football association WILL have a punishment ready.
Just because there isn't such an e-sports or sc2 association (yet), EG's actions can't be explained as being morally right.
And noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase? Sure, over 90% of the people on the internet are complete retards, but don't insult or even underestimate the intelligence of the sc2 community.
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This whole fiasco could have probably been avoided if you negotiated through TSL's coach directly rather than through PuMa first and foremost. Furthermore, it's surprising that out of all the players who were on a contract and were actually given a salary, PuMa was not one of them.
Considering PuMa is one of the best Korean players to ever just explode onto the scene, was actually one of the main practice partners for Flash of all Brood War bonjwas, and made it through the ball-busting single elimination open tournament of the NASL, and then wiped out everybody to reach the top.
But I think the fact that PuMa wasn't on a contract changes things a bit.
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On July 26 2011 21:57 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? The only thing EG neglected to consider is the relative noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase. It hasnt been around long enough for this type of stuff to become par for the course re: player transfers. You all will get over it by the 10th time it happens.
Well nobody was upset when FXO took over a whole team so your post is pretty much not consistent and therefore useless for this discussion.
Judging from the reaction of the community there gotta be more about it and I think it's positive that EG adds their views to it, eventhough they did it with some delay, this news got pretty hot really fast after all.
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On July 26 2011 22:23 Clbull wrote:
This whole fiasco could have probably been avoided if you negotiated through TSL's coach directly rather than through PuMa first and foremost. Furthermore, it's surprising that out of all the players who were on a contract and were actually given a salary, PuMa was not one of them.
Considering PuMa is one of the best Korean players to ever just explode onto the scene, was actually one of the main practice partners for Flash of all Brood War bonjwas, and made it through the ball-busting single elimination open tournament of the NASL, and then wiped out everybody to reach the top.
But I think the fact that PuMa wasn't on a contract changes things a bit.
EXACTLY. Imagine being In Puma's shoes and your coach wont even give you a contract/salary for being such a top-level player. Congrats to Puma. EG FIGHTING!!!
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On July 26 2011 09:13 Ingebrigtsen wrote:
Why would they need to apoligies to Milkis. They were never rude to him, and he just said the same thing over and over again untill most people in chat were flipping tables because of it.
I totally agree with you on this. I respect Milky in that he tried to defend the position of Mr.Lee and I can see the difficulty in defending someone thats not there when you only have limited information but he didnt really have any good points to bring the table. EG was right in what they did and maybe Puma should be blamed for not talking to Mr:Lee earlier. It was his responsibility.
That being said, I think it would have been a nice manner move by EG to go through Mr.Lee instead of Puma but since everything was done in person on a LAN where Mr.Lee wasnt present I can see why they didnt do that as well.
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On July 26 2011 22:23 Copenap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 21:57 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:53 MrKn4rz wrote:On July 26 2011 21:50 stratmatt wrote:On July 26 2011 21:47 Siphyo wrote:When you say '*first* step' 48 times, it doesn't magically become true. You talked to PuMa at NASL, that was the *first* step. And even though informally talking to another person isn't a criminal activity, polling his interest in maybe joining EG was wrong. And it was the FIRST step. The *second* (cwidt?) step was PuMa talking to coach Lee, which should have been the third step. After talking to PuMa, which is or isn't fine depending on what actually was discussed, YOU (EG) should have directly contacted TSL, explaining that you talked with PuMa and that you would like the player to join EG's roster. How the fuck can you skip that step, and use the player as a shield between TSL and EG? Judging from coach Lee's interview, PuMa had a very hard time actually bringing up his issue within TSL, suffering for having to do the job EG should have done. You seem to be completely unable to put yourself in TSL's position. Imagine one of your top players starting to act strange, and when you ask what is up, he tells that another team has approached him to join up. He tells you that he already has decided for himself, and that despite the (in this case real) contract, he no longer wishes to be a part of EG. How would you respond? I bet the same way coach Lee did, and most likely in a way worse manner. Stop being a hypocrite, admit that you were wrong and apologize to the people you have seriously harmed with your horrible way of doing things. Negotiating things with TSL is a decent first step in redeeming yourself and your team. On July 26 2011 21:17 Klaus1986 wrote:
Puma wanted on EG. EG wanted Puma. Puma is now EG. Looks like both parties are happy. Case closed. Cool story, if there were actually just two parties. What exactly is your experience in running a pro-gaming organization? You seem to think you know an awful lot about what EG SHOULD do. Can you qualify your expertise on the matter? lol Well the reaction of the community gives him right or do you think EG is happy about how this all went? The only thing EG neglected to consider is the relative noobish quality of the sc2 pro-gaming fanbase. It hasnt been around long enough for this type of stuff to become par for the course re: player transfers. You all will get over it by the 10th time it happens. Well nobody was upset when FXO took over a whole team so your post is pretty much not consistent and therefore useless for this discussion.
2 completely different situations. Thanks for helping to prove my point.
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EPT
