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On July 26 2011 17:41 DrunkenTemplar wrote:
The way you treated and went after Milkis on WoC was a much bigger issue for me, I think you took advantage of that situation and put djWheat in a really awkward spot. I really have 0 respect for you after that show. And considering that was the first response from EG on the issue.....it was just dumb all round.
At the end of the day there's been heaps of agreements recently between Korean teams and NA/foreign ones, and this is the only one which caused a problem. Regardless of whether everything was "technically" ok, having the only contact with TSL being through puma is just a really really dumb idea. It comes across as amateurish, and the fact that other team heads like FXOBosS have posted on here means that it's not just TL denizens who think its off.
This one caused problems because EG does not seem to want to be a personal sponsor like Dr Pepper or Stride gum, they actually want their own players, unlike SK or coL for example, who just go for the easy exposure.
EG has done absolutely nothing wrong, if they want a player, they go after him. Sure, they could have tried to talk to Coach Lee first, but the language and distance barrier is pretty rough. If Lee had not reacted the way he did to the conversation between him and PuMa, this would not even have been discussed.
Coach Lee is the one to blame in this whole deal, not EG. And i understand if Alex was abit angry during WoC, he had every right to be after all the crap EG has gotten, for nothing.
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On July 26 2011 17:40 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:37 domane wrote:
An ethical, culturally considerate gesture would have been to inform TSL of your intentions before presenting PuMa with an offer. To, potentially, watch TSL offer Puma a contract, without notifying him of the EG offer?
Give TSL the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they've done anything that suggests otherwise.
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To the people really upset with EG, do you think that TSL has the right to say "No offer you can give us is worth losing Puma", and keep him? Despite not having made any binding commitments to Puma?
I think contracts are a must in any business relationship. They don't have to be filled with lawyer-ese to be legal and binding; in consulting, contracts can be very simple and often exist largely to remove ambiguity and prevent good intentions from screwing people over as much as possible.
The best part of this whole incident is that hopefully the sc2 scene will make contracts the standard way to go about an agreement. There were far worse ways their lack could have gone wrong.
Edit: I will say that EG could have handled things much better after the initial story broke, regardless of how I feel about TSL not having Puma under contract.
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On July 26 2011 16:57 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
4) PuMa was not contracted by TSL, and did not receive a salary.
I think this needs to be put in the white box on top of the thread. In my opinion, this is the CORE and utmost crucial post in this whole mess and people don't seem to get it. EG did NOT "lure away" Puma from TSL because TSL - consciously - decided to NOT pay Puma. I realize that coach Lee did make it look like this was all based on friendship and whatnot...but let's cut the crap: if any professional athlete isn't contracted and therefore isn't paid, there's a word for this: FREE AGENT TSL majorly screwed up by trying to be cheap. As they even confirmed, they only contracted Clide and SangHo. Then it's their frickin fault if their players want to leave, I mean, would you work at your job if your boss told you "hey, let's just not sign a contract, you work for free and only get some money here and there when I feel like it". EG is 100% in the right there, the fact that TSL even seems to have success at convincing the community that EG is supposed to respect and honor non-existing contracts (again: what the hell?) blows my mind. EDIT: somewhat ninja'd, poster above me states about 90% the same as I do
Can free agency exist without kespa 2.0?
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Never would have happened if they just would've signed him a contract.
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On July 26 2011 17:47 Arkio wrote:
Never would have happened if they just would've signed him a contract.
Kind of true. I don't know whether EG's recruiting tactics were kosher, but this Mr. Lee guy seems like a pretty major passive aggressor. Pretty messed up imo.
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This really is none of the business of the community but I appreciate EG for placating us anyway (although they had few options after the TSL coach decided to cry to anyone that would listen).
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On July 26 2011 17:51 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:47 Arkio wrote:
Never would have happened if they just would've signed him a contract. Kind of true. I don't know whether EG's recruiting tactics were kosher, but this Mr. Lee guy seems like a pretty major passive aggressor. Pretty messed up imo.
From what I understand very few Star2 players in Korea are contracted. It's like individual groups of families.
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On July 26 2011 16:43 Pai Mei wrote:Poll: Letting a 19 year old talk to coach white EG watch in sidelines is:inapproriate, cowardly and opportunistic (60) 66% appropriate, manner, and best option (31) 34% 91 total votes Your vote: Letting a 19 year old talk to coach white EG watch in sidelines is: (Vote): appropriate, manner, and best option
(Vote): inapproriate, cowardly and opportunistic
I believe the act of negotiating with a 19-year-old is fine. I just see a problem with the order at which it was done.
I'm surprised at the results.
On July 26 2011 17:40 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:37 domane wrote:
An ethical, culturally considerate gesture would have been to inform TSL of your intentions before presenting PuMa with an offer. To, potentially, watch TSL offer Puma a contract, without notifying him of the EG offer?
On July 26 2011 14:57 domane wrote:
All they have to do is make sure TSL gets their e-mail, or have a middleman that is fluent in Korean - someone who is not PuMa - inform TSL in person.
How would PuMa have learned that EG was interested in him? He was at NASL for an extended period of time and EG had plenty of opportunities to approach him with an offer (which they did without informing TSL beforehand).
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9071 Posts
Alex, if you are going to write 5000 words soon on the subject of journalism/translation and Milkis I personally cannot wait for you to waste your time doing it and smash all absurd and nonsensical arguements you are going to make.
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Wow, that only took like a week. *eyeroll*
I don't like the whole attitude here, but whatever, power to EG and Puma. I personally hope he fails miserably.
Also, nice reaction timing EG PR department.
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On July 26 2011 17:52 StyLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:51 Gummy wrote:On July 26 2011 17:47 Arkio wrote:
Never would have happened if they just would've signed him a contract. Kind of true. I don't know whether EG's recruiting tactics were kosher, but this Mr. Lee guy seems like a pretty major passive aggressor. Pretty messed up imo. From what I understand very few Star2 players in Korea are contracted. It's like individual groups of families.
Really? If that is so, then sign them to a developmentally contract or something along those lines. That way the player is obligated to stay with the team.
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On July 26 2011 17:52 StyLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:51 Gummy wrote:On July 26 2011 17:47 Arkio wrote:
Never would have happened if they just would've signed him a contract. Kind of true. I don't know whether EG's recruiting tactics were kosher, but this Mr. Lee guy seems like a pretty major passive aggressor. Pretty messed up imo. From what I understand very few Star2 players in Korea are contracted. It's like individual groups of families.
The notion that this has anything to do with loyalty or family is laughable. The teams are saving tons of money by doing it this way...but there are consequences to it as TSL has found out multiple times now. I have no sympathy for teams losing players when they are not paying them what they are worth. I will always support the players in these situations. Puma comes out on top in this and that means it is a positive result.
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On July 26 2011 17:37 domane wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
In the weeks following NASL, PuMa and EG continued our discussion. As of last Wednesday, there was very serious mutual interest in having PuMa on EG;serious enough that he brought the issue up to Mr. Lee, the coach of TSL, as EG and PuMa had agreed would happen. The issue should have been brought up to TSL before EG and PuMA developed "serious mutual interest" Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
For EG, growing our Korean fan base and developing mutually respectful relationships with Korean teams are both very important long-term goals. We've put so much work and planning time into being able to recruit a top-tier Korean player. Why would we want to invite such controversy and sign our first Korean player under these kinds of public circumstances? You wouldn't want to invite controversy, but you made the mistake regardless. That is either ignorance or sticking to your guns despite having a basic idea of the involved risk. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
In fact, over the past month alone, we have been in talks with several Korean teams (read: after speaking with management first, not players first) regarding potential recruitment and collaboration. These managers know who they are, and they know that we have approached their teams honorably and respectfully. Now, the obvious question you're all asking after reading this is, "Then, why didn't you do that with Mr. Lee?"
In the case of TSL, the only reason we did not speak with Mr. Lee first is that it was established between EG and PuMa, in our very first conversation, that - if he eventually decided he was interested in joining EG - he felt that the best first step (read: *first* step) to take would be for him to personally bring the issue to his coach. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 12:21 Blueblox wrote:
I think EG's management handled the sittuation wrong and then when asked how they fucked up so badly EG responded "We didn't it wasn't our fault it was (insert scapegoat here) fault!" Why did EG and PuMa decide PuMa should not inform TSL until that point? So it was planned that he wouldn't break the news to coach Lee until he had his mind almost made up? Wow. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
And overall, we think that it's a good thing that international teams like EG are increasing the overall amount of financial support available to Korean players. After all, as a result of this, PuMa will instantly become one of the highest paid SC2 players in Korea, and he will be able to travel to any foreign tournament he wants to. Many of you have criticized us for allegedly being the big, bad corporate machine. But one thing you can't argue with is that we support our players very, very well. And it's very easy, from the outside, to say something like, "Oh yeah, well, it's easy to support players well when you just throw money at them." But that kind of position is short-sighted. Irrelevant. People haven't been criticizing EG for their ability to support their players. Not the issue. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
We're not just sitting on a pile of money - it didn't just appear out of nowhere. We had to work very, very hard to secure the sponsors that we have, and it's not fair to criticize us for being good at getting sponsors, especially when (unlike other teams) we pass most of our sponsorship money on to our players. For the record, I'd like all of you to know that we put a higher percentage of our gross revenue back into player support than almost any other team in the world. So, for those of you who think I'm typing this from my yacht - I'm not. I'm actually typing this from my one-bedroom apartment. People are not criticizing EG for their ability to attract sponsors. More off-topic information from Alex Garfield. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
Going back to the situation at hand, many of you have argued that our approach here was "aggressive" and "objectionable" because we did not consult TSL management first, but rather, went to the player first. But I would like to again point out that PuMa and EG's mutual decision to have PuMa speak with Mr. Lee first was not motivated by a desire to sneak around Mr. Lee, but rather, it was simply agreed to be the best first step (again, read: *first* step) communication-wise. Just because our management did not speak with TSL's as the very first step in this process, does not mean that we ignored, subverted or disregarded TSL. Giving TSL an inadequate level of attention, which eventually caused them to become upset ... Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
In EG's defense, I want to state that, given the facts shared above, I really don't think that EG is guilty of any massive transgression here. I think the situation has been blown out of proportion to a ridiculous extent. However, I absolutely acknowledge that this situation ultimately boils down to the issue of cross-cultural respect. I truly do believe that EG's approach in this situation was appropriate, but I'm not so stubborn and belligerent as to sit here and claim that EG is 0% at fault. At the same time, though, the community's majority reaction was to place TSL as being 0% at fault, and that's not fair or accurate either. A generous compromise from Alex Garfield. One might read this and react "hmm ... sounds like EG and TSL share near-equal responsibility". Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
Ultimately, I feel that TSL's public actions in this situation were not appropriate. I think that TSL's reaction, and their decision to go to the press so fast, was very knee-jerk. Show nested quote +July 26 2011 11:26 StUfF wrote:
Lee gets told out of no where that EG has approached Puma and Puma has agreed after "weeks" of negotiation that he would join EG. Puma's mind was clearly made by that point. It's a joke to "include" Lee at that point. But true enough. TSL should have first contacted EG to discuss the issue. But what about legality? Did coach Lee break law(s) by sharing his limited knowledge to the media? TSL's public actions on one end, EG's private actions on the other ... Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
I want to state, again (and, I'm sorry for belaboring the point, but I'm going to do it), that EG and PuMa both felt that PuMa speaking with Mr. Lee would be the best *first* second step in this process, with the next logical step being EG speaking with Mr. Lee directly.
EG is willing to retroactively negotiate terms for PuMa joining EG which will satisfy Mr. Lee on a business level. It's obviously not ideal to have negotiations retroactively, but I think that EG is pretty clearly not the party that jumped the gun here.
And, to be fair, I think that our willingness to negotiate a settlement with Mr. Lee (which, again, didn't just appear out of nowhere once this went public - negotiating with him was part of the process all along, from our perspective), when PuMa wasn't even contracted, is a pretty ethical, culturally considerate gesture. I don't believe you. An ethical, culturally considerate gesture would have been to inform TSL of your intentions before presenting PuMa with an offer. + Show Spoiler [I'm in line with these opinions] +On July 26 2011 09:25 -_- wrote:
I've read the entire post. Forgive me if my missed something.
You keep saying that Puma told you the best first step would be for him to contact his coach. Wouldn't the logical first step for you have been to talk to Lee before approaching Puma and communicating EG's interest? Wouldn't have that really have been the proper first step? On July 26 2011 09:29 DrakeFZX3 wrote:
Having read the OP, the explanation about EG and Puma agreeing to let Puma speak to Mr. Lee first was pretty half-assed or at the very least, a very poor decision on both parties.
The thing is EG shouldn't have spoken to Puma first in the first place.
If EG was interested in another team's player, they should've gone directly to the that team's manager. Then this whole thing wouldn't have happened. You don't speak to a player from another team with any intentions of contraction until you've gone to management. That's just out of respect for the opposing team. On July 26 2011 10:50 GeorgeForeman wrote:
To summarize, "We didn't contact TSL before approaching their player because we approached their player first and decided that as the *first step* (you know, after the zeroth step of contacting the player) would be to talk with his management." On July 26 2011 10:58 ptbl wrote:
You just admitted that you never approached Coach Lee first. So, this whole situation could have been avoided if you went through the proper channels. Yet, you still say that you are not really at fault... On July 26 2011 10:55 FuzzyJAM wrote:
This whole statement is just. . .ridiculous. The very fact that you kept emphasising that talking to the TSL coach was the first step when the entire issue is that you didn't do this is just. . .what? EG's first step was to talk to Puma. That is the problem people have. Don't try to obfuscate with irrelevant stuff that no one is talking about - nobody cares what happened after you approached Puma, no one has any issue with that.
Offering a general apology without saying what you did wrong is just incredibly dishonest, but I guess that goes with the tone of the entire post, which addressed absolutely nothing that people have issues with. On July 26 2011 13:15 b_unnies wrote:
EG still not acknowledging what the real problem is. Again they refuse to acknowledge that they shouldnt have talk to Puma at all in the 1st place On July 26 2011 12:37 Pai Mei wrote:
EG should be professional to deal it as a team to another team and not directly approach Puma. This post is expected damage control. Nothing more
I think the big disconnect between people here is the word "ethical".
Being ethical is completely relative in professional sports. Based on your post, I think you're contending that what's acceptable in the rest of the sporting world (i.e. free agents signing with the highest bidder) is different in Starcraft 2 and or E-sports - you're saying that there is a virtual or moral guideline that should apply to free agents?
If so, I would like to know the full context of this mandate on what defines professionalism and ethics for Starcraft 2 free agents. I would also like to know who wrote these guidelines, and if so how they intend to enforce them?
The point is, it's clear that none of these "ethical" or "professionalism" rules actually exist. And until someone can prove otherwise, I don't see how this argument against EG is credible.
I mean seriously, since when has politeness or courtesy ever had anything to do with a legitimate business transaction? And when was the last time a coach flipped out because his free-agent player decided to go somewhere better? If you don't want your player going somewhere else, make it worth his while to stay, and sign him. Period.
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First off the polls are stupid."Letting a 19 year old who has a close relationship with the coach and speaks the language fluently making sure there are no mis translations is;"
would be a a far better poll.
Letting a player talk to the coach and his teammates by themselves before the organisation gets involved is nothing new in any sports. Im not sure how things are being done in like baseball and nfl etc but in european football there is absolutely nothing weird about a team contacting the player first to see if there is any interest in joining. Same thing with other organisations in e-sports.
Alot of times Ive read that the player himself has spoken to the team and players after an offer was made (even had this happen in the 1 proffesional organisation I was a part of many years ago).l
I agree that EG should get some flame for this deal, but not all of it and certainly not on the level that they have been recieving it.
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I appreciate EG posting this response but this still doesn't sit right with me.
EG (like anyone on TL) are aware of the break ups from TSL this past month with Rain, FD and Ki Soo.
Could you not wait even an extra month? Are you not aware of the status of the team even before this?
It was bad enough for Coach Lee to put up with 3 code S players leaving his team then u guys jump in and take another top notch player in less than a month.
I don't blame Lee for giving you guys an unfair public reaction but quite frankly EG deserved it.
I know you guys don't intend to disrespect TSL and coach Lee in any way but you guys should've just waited. Your acquisition of PuMa was poorly timed EG.
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On July 26 2011 17:46 ineq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:41 DrunkenTemplar wrote:
The way you treated and went after Milkis on WoC was a much bigger issue for me, I think you took advantage of that situation and put djWheat in a really awkward spot. I really have 0 respect for you after that show. And considering that was the first response from EG on the issue.....it was just dumb all round.
At the end of the day there's been heaps of agreements recently between Korean teams and NA/foreign ones, and this is the only one which caused a problem. Regardless of whether everything was "technically" ok, having the only contact with TSL being through puma is just a really really dumb idea. It comes across as amateurish, and the fact that other team heads like FXOBosS have posted on here means that it's not just TL denizens who think its off. This one caused problems because EG does not seem to want to be a personal sponsor like Dr Pepper or Stride gum, they actually want their own players, unlike SK or coL for example, who just go for the easy exposure. EG has done absolutely nothing wrong, if they want a player, they go after him. Sure, they could have tried to talk to Coach Lee first, but the language and distance barrier is pretty rough. If Lee had not reacted the way he did to the conversation between him and PuMa, this would not even have been discussed. Coach Lee is the one to blame in this whole deal, not EG. And i understand if Alex was abit angry during WoC, he had every right to be after all the crap EG has gotten, for nothing.
No, that's a cop out. "The language barrier is pretty rough"? If the language barrier stops EG phoning the team coach to talk about this, how the hell are you going to look after a korean player? And no Alex doesn't have every right to be angry and go after a guy who translated a goddam article which was released on another website. He should've contacted the TSL coach earlier as soon as he heard about the comments and when it went live on PlayXP. Which wouldn't have happened at all and would probably have been contained if EG went to the coach earlier during the negotiations instead of relying on word of mouth of a player!!
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Good to hear your side, +1 for transparency.
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On July 26 2011 17:46 jmbthirteen wrote:
Quite frankly this idea that you should talk to a team before finding out if a player is even interested just seems incredibly backwards to me. You put out feelers with players, gauge interest and then talk to teams. In sc2, teams don't own players, especially if they aren't under contract. With no league governing teams/players and no player union, what EG did is perfectly fine. TSL going off "trust and faith" is just bad business practice. You can't compare this to regular sports because of the rules that exist and because their players are actually under contract.
I agree.
Nice that we finaly got a statement from EG about this.
Althou i might not agree with everything but i still respect it.
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EPT
