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Page 26 and onwards I will issue at least two day bans to anyone who clearly has not read the original topic post and the explanations contained therein. He was barred access to the event days before the actual event took place and used some random diamond player his account to try and get in anyway.
Leave the racial bias at the door while you are at it as well pretty please. |
On July 18 2011 20:12 Bobble wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:10 ReaperX wrote:
What MajOr did was wrong, but you guys are taking this way out of proportion. SJ management need to be warned, and he has already recieved community backlash for what he has done. That is the punishment he needs. There is no need to exclude him from future tournaments or make him pay for smurfing in a tournament. He didn't win anything from it, anyways.
he didn't win anything because he was caught before he was able to get any money. And Dox's rules stated that anyone caught cheating would be banned from all future tournaments. As SEA organisers are tight-knit as well, he has been banned from a few tournaments as well. It's a proper punishment.
unless he finds another smurf account :D
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Very childish and stupid.
There are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we do not refuse anyone.
I guess it would be too hard though eh?
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On July 18 2011 20:04 HitMonkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:01 GertHeart wrote:On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:
[quote]
You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness.
I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server.
I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. I'm sorry but this isn't right. I don't know if you've played any games at a high level yourself, but here's something that I believe most "pro gamers" if not "All" agree on, and this is just about for every genre. If you play against better players who ROFLstomp you, you will improve faster. If you leave people at the same level to compete against each other they'll improve at a much slowly rate. I've played a few games against these "pros" the lessons you get by having your face smashed in is quite high. I remember the first time I did an AoE tournament and I thought the other guy was cheating, because it just wasn't possible he could be that good, I check the replay and found out "wow, this guy is way better than me." and learned from him and studied the replay over and over, and improved myself. That's just one example, I have 3rd strike examples too ^.^ and that guy beat me 100x in a row at first. This 100% Why do you think players go to Korea? So that they can play the best players out there and improve. You improve alot faster playing players better than you than training with people around your level. Better players will take advantage of any mistake you make and will punish you for making stupid decisions. This goes for any sport, the higher level of opposition you compete against the higher you can progess as a player.
Yet someone has to get you the financial backing to go to Korea, or the financial backing to be able to practice more. Small tournaments like this helps the non sponsored players become able to better financially support themselves so that they can one day go to Korea or practice enough to become sponsored. If you include the players who already have financial backing, then your basically obstructing the growth the of lesser known players.
I never stated that playing against better players doesn't make you better. The fact is it does. But first you have to find enough time to practice with them on a consistent basis.
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On July 18 2011 20:20 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:10 Zaros wrote:On July 18 2011 20:07 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:
[quote]
What?
So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament?
And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is.
Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. Excluding the best players on the server from the the tournament is not good for the server's growth. You mind as well ban all grandmasters while you're at it. Whatever happens, the tournament organisers always choose who plays and who doesn't if they dont want certain people to play they cant play, end of story. The fact that people will try to ignore the people putting all the hard work into a tournament just to win some cash is very disapointing and unproffesional. The organizer has every right to do that and no-one is trying to take away from his hardwork. The point I've been disputing is that if your going to call out a player and supplement his incrimination with how "your doing this to make the sea server better" then you should back it up. If Dox had just said I told Major he couldn't play because the server is for sea residents then its ok. But instead he also talked about his intent behind the tournament is to make the server better, thus i expect his rules to fall in line with that. As i analzyed in one of my numerous other posts, inviting moonglade and t-gun does not further this objective.
While that may or may not be true, he ignored the admins and tried to enter anyway, I think we all know his intent is to win money and not to raise the competition of the SEA server. The fact he then preceded to call the admin a "fag" after he is the one who cheated makes the situation much worse IMO .
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He knew exactly what he was doing and deserves all the shit he's getting. It's not the first time he's done such thing - he was caught playing for some girl in WCG regional qualifiers some years ago preventing some dude from realizing his dream of qualifying to national grand finals. He proved once again that he's a douchebag and lost all my respect.
Tough decision for Artosis, the best decision would be kicking him out of the team but I doubt he's gonna do that, they've been friends for too long time.
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On July 18 2011 20:24 Flwz wrote:
Very childish and stupid.
There are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we do not refuse anyone.
I guess it would be too hard though eh?
And there are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we also refuse people from outside!
Also, what the fuck does that have to do with this issue? People are trying to look away from that Major lied in an admins face and broke rules then insulted him and instead look at the rules and say "Well that could be changed!". Makes me sick.
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On July 18 2011 20:28 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:24 Flwz wrote:
Very childish and stupid.
There are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we do not refuse anyone.
I guess it would be too hard though eh?
And there are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we also refuse people from outside! Also, what the fuck does that have to do with this issue? People are trying to look away from that Major lied in an admins face and broke rules then insulted him and instead look at the rules and say "Well that could be changed!". Makes me sick.
What I meant is he is welcome to play in Go4sc2 (including finals) or Zotac.
Yet he will not because his intention was to make a quick buck over what he thought would be an easy win tourney.
As a tournament admin I absolutely agree that his behavior is despicable, never meant to say otherwise.
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On July 18 2011 20:28 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:24 Flwz wrote:
Very childish and stupid.
There are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we do not refuse anyone.
I guess it would be too hard though eh?
And there are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we also refuse people from outside! Also, what the fuck does that have to do with this issue? People are trying to look away from that Major lied in an admins face and broke rules then insulted him and instead look at the rules and say "Well that could be changed!". Makes me sick.
agreed.
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On July 18 2011 20:20 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:10 Zaros wrote:On July 18 2011 20:07 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:
[quote]
What?
So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament?
And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is.
Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. Excluding the best players on the server from the the tournament is not good for the server's growth. You mind as well ban all grandmasters while you're at it. Whatever happens, the tournament organisers always choose who plays and who doesn't if they dont want certain people to play they cant play, end of story. The fact that people will try to ignore the people putting all the hard work into a tournament just to win some cash is very disapointing and unproffesional. The organizer has every right to do that and no-one is trying to take away from his hardwork. The point I've been disputing is that if your going to call out a player and supplement his incrimination with how "your doing this to make the sea server better" then you should back it up. If Dox had just said I told Major he couldn't play because the server is for sea residents then its ok. But instead he also talked about his intent behind the tournament is to make the server better, thus i expect his rules to fall in line with that. As i analzyed in one of my numerous other posts, inviting moonglade and t-gun does not further this objective.
Ultimately, I don't really see what you're trying to argue. If you don't think the method is effective in developing the SEA scene, okay. But I don't see how that relates to Major's actions, as the point is that he broke rules which is entirely separate from Dox's "objective".
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I don't get how anyone could side with major after reading the OP, it's pretty obvious that he wanted to cheat the tournament and decided the best way to deal with being caught was to lie some more and call the admin a fag.
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On July 18 2011 20:01 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:33 ke_ivan wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 shadymmj wrote:On July 18 2011 19:01 ke_ivan wrote:On July 18 2011 18:44 shadymmj wrote:
People here are like a lynch mob brandishing their pitchforks of good morality. Sure, the guy is a douche, we all know that, but it's a free country. I don't take anything else too seriously other than the game. Starcraft 2 is a game, and there are dicks and griefers in every game. Live with it. No one is obligated to help a scene grow.
If I were as good as him, could possibly smurf, get away with it and split the cash, then why the hell not? Dood, even from a completely ethic-less point of view... ...he got caught through some intellectually-challenged actions. If I were to be incredibly ethically-indisposed myself, I can forgive something like cheating. But I wouldn't be able to forgive something like getting caught. So you're applauding him for being stupid? huh? Either way, ethically or otherwise, his actions were still dumb. He deserves to get a spanking from coach 'tosis. Time to improve your reading comprehension. Show me where I insinuated that what he did should be applauded. I just said that what he did could be justified if he didn't give two fucks about what people think of him as a player. If someone doesn't care about manner and all that nonsense, then grant him his personal space. I'm not asking you to respect him, but I'm asking you not to lynch him. " If I were as good as him, could possibly smurf, get away with it and split the cash, then why the hell not?" You set that as a possibility. If it's possible, and you condone it, it isn't a far stretch to say that you applaud it. You set a conditional statement "If I were as good as him", followed by the actions, followed by an affirmation in the form of a question - "then why the hell not?" So not only do you say that it is justifiable to do something like that, you say that if you were in the same position you'd do the same. If that isn't applause, I don't know what is. After all imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Which is fine. Clearly justifiable. Except he got caught. So why would you want to emulate that? Secondly, you said, "If someone doesn't care about manner and all that nonsense, then grant him his personal space." a) He is a pro-gamer, which means everything he does is associated with his sponsor. That makes things he does professionally (such as joining tournaments) part of the professional/public realm. Which means everybody can whip him and hold pitchforks up as they so please. b) He has the right to not give a shit; the community also has the right to lynch him. c) Legally, you don't just let someone who's attempted to steal from you walk away scott free do you? Hence, there is the term "attempted". Lesser sentence, but still deserved. (Unless you're in the US of A, of course. Sorry US folks, it's true.) Anyway, I'm not on some moral high horse here. I'm saying that even if we lived in an amoral society, major deserves every bit of flak, because he got caught. Comprehensive enough for you? That line of reasoning is entirely flawed. My statement was used purely as a rational justification for his behaviour. It was a hypothetical scenario - he did, in fact, get caught - so perhaps what you should take out of it is that I condone doing whatever it takes to get cash when it's being proffered to you on a silver platter on the internet. Quite obviously, I do not approve of his getting caught. a) No? That's entirely up to his sponsor to decide. Quite frankly, all I see is that he is paid to win at Starcraft. b) Of course you're quite free to criticise anyone on the internet. However, I personally disapprove. c) You want to be careful with your terminology. Stealing (or attempted theft) is a crime, and so you are insinuating that he is a criminal. Unfortunately casual transactions in the context of internet gaming is by-and-large unregulated by any government body.
"...so perhaps what you should take out of it is that I condone doing whatever it takes to get cash when it's being proffered to you on a silver platter on the internet."
Because hypothetical statements do not imply action, if that's what you're saying, therefore, you're saying that you don't necessarily approve because you're not in his position. I will agree with you. But it doesn't change the fact that the intent to cheat is still there.
a) No? That's entirely up to his sponsor to decide. Quite frankly, all I see is that he is paid to win at Starcraft.
a) Unfortunately, it's not for his company, but rather the court of public opinion that decides these things. Just like how the News of the World editor may not have been the one hacking but was nonetheless implicated. This isn't a legal issue; it's a public relations issue.
b) Of course you're quite free to criticise anyone on the internet. However, I personally disapprove.
b) Sorry you feel that way. I, too, personally disapprove of sixjax MajOr's actions. We're all entitled. Yay!
c) You want to be careful with your terminology. Stealing (or attempted theft) is a crime, and so you are insinuating that he is a criminal. Unfortunately casual transactions in the context of internet gaming is by-and-large unregulated by any government body.
c) You're saying that this is a casual transaction unprotected by law at the moment. I'm pretty sure, since you're a lawyer, that you know the terms of contractual law. While it might not be criminal, there are certainly grounds for a civil suit, although I could see it failing miserably (Breach of Contract - verbal or otherwise). Of course, there would need to be sufficient proof and a party rich enough to drag out court proceedings, but Sixjax majOr could be tried on several grounds: impersonation, breach of contract (verbal), breach of the Blizzard license etc. But obviously this doesn't warrant legal action. Unless some rich dude wants to spend all this money on a kid... lulz.
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On July 18 2011 20:26 rafaliusz wrote:
He knew exactly what he was doing and deserves all the shit he's getting. It's not the first time he's done such thing - he was caught playing for some girl in WCG regional qualifiers some years ago preventing some dude from realizing his dream of qualifying to national grand finals. He proved once again that he's a douchebag and lost all my respect.
Tough decision for Artosis, the best decision would be kicking him out of the team but I doubt he's gonna do that, they've been friends for too long time.
An incident like this that's relatively minor in the scope of things isn't really something that would concern Sixjax or Artosis too much. He'll probably get a warning, but unless he does something bad or continues further, they aren't going to drop him for this. I see them seriously considering it if 1-2 or more publicly embarrassing incidents like this occur after this though. Most incidents before this seem to have been relatively minor as well, and didn't seem to be as publicly embarrassing.
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On July 18 2011 18:46 BackSideAttack wrote:
to quote you exactly
"This event was specifically designed to encourage the SEA community to step up their game and embrace the global success of StarCraft 2 competitive eSports. Consider it an investment on my part. I inject money into the community, and the community produces higher quality gamers. Eventually these players will build the skills and confidence they need to represent SEA on the world stage (see: mOOnGLaDe). "
How does injecting money into someone like T-gun help the scene grow? It doesn't. He is already set. He has a team, an income, skilled practice partners, and a team house. His primary source of practice no longer comes from the Sea server. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would be injecting those funds to people who weren't afforded to opportunity to join a team and practice in Korea. Giving him the 1st place winnings won't make the scene any better, whereas giving an unknown player the winnings could help you produce another T-gun.
I don't disagree with your intent, but as i previously stated in the rebuttal for someone else, it was your lack of foresight that made this decision discriminatory. You didn't think it through, therefore you have a glaring hole in the logic of your reasoning for hosting the tournament. It's okay to host the server for only a specific group of people. But if your intent is to build the scene, then you shouldn't allow people like T-gun to play.
I truly do not understand what your fixation on tgun is all about. I mean absolutely no offense to the guy - I love the guy, I'm a huge fan of the guy, and I talk to him nearly every day. But he has not won a single event in SEA to date and there is no statistics to prove that he would win the event hands down.
By your logic, mOOnGLaDe should be a focal point since he has participated in the GSL, and came 4th in the world at IEM last season. Are you saying I shouldn't let mOOnGLaDe play either? Are you suggesting that I should ban every Australian who makes a reputation for himself? Seems kind of counterproductive, no?
Tgun has only been out of the country for 6 weeks. And he's leaving Korea in like 10 days. You talk about glaring holes of logic, yet you fail to recognise how dreadfully gaping your posts are. Tgun and mOOnGLaDe are symbols of what I want more of our players to aspire to.
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On July 18 2011 20:41 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:26 rafaliusz wrote:
He knew exactly what he was doing and deserves all the shit he's getting. It's not the first time he's done such thing - he was caught playing for some girl in WCG regional qualifiers some years ago preventing some dude from realizing his dream of qualifying to national grand finals. He proved once again that he's a douchebag and lost all my respect.
Tough decision for Artosis, the best decision would be kicking him out of the team but I doubt he's gonna do that, they've been friends for too long time. An incident like this that's relatively minor in the scope of things isn't really something that would concern Sixjax or Artosis too much. He'll probably get a warning, but unless he does something bad or continues further, they aren't going to drop him for this. I see them seriously considering it if 1-2 or more publicly embarrassing incidents like this occur after this though. Most incidents before this seem to have been relatively minor as well, and didn't seem to be as publicly embarrassing.
Team sixjax dismissed the whole event pretty quickly, from what I've heard. On top of that, one of the managers made a comment of how SEA is small in the grand scheme of things, cant remember the exact words though.
I don't see any way that Major will get kicked from the team for this, with the mentality they have towards this. Instead, they will lose a lot of fans and continue with him.
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There is fault on both sides, just because Major has a bad past he is getting the huge PR Hit. Maybe I'm wrong but here is how I understand everything went down.
- The official post states "Anyone with a valid SEA battle.net account can participate."
- Major buys a SEA Account expecting to compensate himself with tournament winnings.
- Major doesn't get seeded, and asks why.
- Admin says "You are not SEA Citizen", which is in the TL Tracker but not the forum post. Expecting a person to read both the TL Tracker + Official post is a little bit much.
- Upset Major, decides to smurf even after the admin said he couldn't play as a "F U for making me spend ~$60 for nothing."
Was Major right in smurfing? No. But the mistake was on both parties in this case. In my opinion they should not of kicked him out but if he won they should have given the prize money to the account holder. It would be up to the account holder to decide if Major gets the money or not, so if it was just a random person on the internet chances are Major wouldn't get paid anyways and he cannot complain about anything.
Smurfing happens. We had an oGs player smurf one of the RQTV Opens but without explicit rules, I doubt the community would react this way. The only reason this is a "big deal" is because it is infact Major. I could understand if he didn't perform well in MLG but cut the man some slack.
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On July 18 2011 20:31 Flwz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:28 Slakter wrote:On July 18 2011 20:24 Flwz wrote:
Very childish and stupid.
There are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we do not refuse anyone.
I guess it would be too hard though eh?
And there are regular EU tourneys with similar prize pools, and guess what? we also refuse people from outside! Also, what the fuck does that have to do with this issue? People are trying to look away from that Major lied in an admins face and broke rules then insulted him and instead look at the rules and say "Well that could be changed!". Makes me sick. What I meant is he is welcome to play in Go4sc2 (including finals) or Zotac. Yet he will not because his intention was to make a quick buck over what he thought would be an easy win tourney. As a tournament admin I absolutely agree that his behavior is despicable, never meant to say otherwise.
Reason for major not to join EU cups is because its stacked like fck duhhh.
Kas Happy Sjow Goody Nerchio Dimaga Stephano Haypro Beasty ++++++ 30 more names etc. are in there that could beat him and some would just destroy him.
Anyways im just laughing at all of you raging its quite a joy to watch. ;D
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On July 18 2011 20:52 Ipp wrote:There is fault on both sides, just because Major has a bad past he is getting the huge PR Hit. Maybe I'm wrong but here is how I understand everything went down. - The official post states "Anyone with a valid SEA battle.net account can participate."
- Major buys a SEA Account expecting to compensate himself with tournament winnings.
- Major doesn't get seeded, and asks why.
- Admin says "You are not SEA Citizen", which is in the TL Tracker but not the forum post. Expecting a person to read both the TL Tracker + Official post is a little bit much.
- Upset Major, decides to smurf even after the admin said he couldn't play as a "F U for making me spend ~$60 for nothing."
Was Major right in smurfing? No. But the mistake was on both parties in this case. In my opinion they should not of kicked him out but if he won they should have given the prize money to the account holder. It would be up to the account holder to decide if Major gets the money or not, so if it was just a random person on the internet chances are Major wouldn't get paid anyways and he cannot complain about anything. Smurfing happens. We had an oGs player smurf one of the RQTV Opens but without explicit rules, I doubt the community would react this way. The only reason this is a "big deal" is because it is infact Major. I could understand if he didn't perform well in MLG but cut the man some slack.
He then proceded to insult the admin after cheating so I think the backlash is well deserved.
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On July 18 2011 20:52 Ipp wrote:There is fault on both sides, just because Major has a bad past he is getting the huge PR Hit. Maybe I'm wrong but here is how I understand everything went down. - The official post states "Anyone with a valid SEA battle.net account can participate."
- Major buys a SEA Account expecting to compensate himself with tournament winnings.
- Major doesn't get seeded, and asks why.
- Admin says "You are not SEA Citizen", which is in the TL Tracker but not the forum post. Expecting a person to read both the TL Tracker + Official post is a little bit much.
- Upset Major, decides to smurf even after the admin said he couldn't play as a "F U for making me spend ~$60 for nothing."
Was Major right in smurfing? No. But the mistake was on both parties in this case. In my opinion they should not of kicked him out but if he won they should have given the prize money to the account holder. It would be up to the account holder to decide if Major gets the money or not, so if it was just a random person on the internet chances are Major wouldn't get paid anyways and he cannot complain about anything. Smurfing happens. We had an oGs player smurf one of the RQTV Opens but without explicit rules, I doubt the community would react this way. The only reason this is a "big deal" is because it is infact Major. I could understand if he didn't perform well in MLG but cut the man some slack.
I don't think major had to buy a SEA account, so that's out the window. There was only like a minimal amount of posts stating that you had to be a SEA citizen, so that was a big fault that dox and other organizer will definitely fix up, that was a mistake. But after the guy who made the tournament says you can't participate, you just can't sidestep him like that. That's a dick move right there.
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On July 18 2011 20:48 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 18:46 BackSideAttack wrote:
to quote you exactly
"This event was specifically designed to encourage the SEA community to step up their game and embrace the global success of StarCraft 2 competitive eSports. Consider it an investment on my part. I inject money into the community, and the community produces higher quality gamers. Eventually these players will build the skills and confidence they need to represent SEA on the world stage (see: mOOnGLaDe). "
How does injecting money into someone like T-gun help the scene grow? It doesn't. He is already set. He has a team, an income, skilled practice partners, and a team house. His primary source of practice no longer comes from the Sea server. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would be injecting those funds to people who weren't afforded to opportunity to join a team and practice in Korea. Giving him the 1st place winnings won't make the scene any better, whereas giving an unknown player the winnings could help you produce another T-gun.
I don't disagree with your intent, but as i previously stated in the rebuttal for someone else, it was your lack of foresight that made this decision discriminatory. You didn't think it through, therefore you have a glaring hole in the logic of your reasoning for hosting the tournament. It's okay to host the server for only a specific group of people. But if your intent is to build the scene, then you shouldn't allow people like T-gun to play. I truly do not understand what your fixation on tgun is all about. I mean absolutely no offense to the guy - I love the guy, I'm a huge fan of the guy, and I talk to him nearly every day. But he has not won a single event in SEA to date and there is no statistics to prove that he would win the event hands down. By your logic, mOOnGLaDe should be a focal point since he has participated in the GSL, and came 4th in the world at IEM last season. Are you saying I shouldn't let mOOnGLaDe play either? Are you suggesting that I should ban every Australian who makes a reputation for himself? Seems kind of counterproductive, no? Tgun has only been out of the country for 6 weeks. And he's leaving Korea in like 10 days. You talk about glaring holes of logic, yet you fail to recognise how dreadfully gaping your posts are. Tgun and mOOnGLaDe are symbols of what I want more of our players to aspire to.
Well I mentioned that later after responding to your post. I don't expect you to have to go through the entire thread so here's a collage of all my posts, most are taken out of context here, but the main point is still there. I encourage you to read through all of it, but if you can't, I understand.
The TL;DR is basically that you told major that he can't play cause he's not a citizen, whereas t-gun and moonglade could. Then you talked about the reasoning behind not letting him play was to give the Sea server a chance to catch up and produce more stars like moonglade and t-gun. I felt that if you were going to use that reasoning then you should ban Moonglade and t-gun as well because they have a backing already. You need a backing before you can commit to being a progamer and these small tournaments should be used to alleviate some of the financial burden the semi-pros that compete have, so that they can expend more effort into practice as opposed to their jobs/streaming/other ways to make money.
COLLAGE OF PAST POSTS:
let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene.
Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive.
The motivation lies in performing well in small tournaments, so that a major pro gaming team may notice you. Afterwards you start making a salary, and be offered an opportunity to play in more lucrative, invite only tournaments. The point of these small tournament is to offer unknown players the opportunity to win a little bit of money to support themselves, so that they can continue to practice and eventually become sponsored.
I guarantee you being good enough to win these small tournaments is no longer significant enough to motivate players such as T-gun and Moonglade to get better. Otherwise as Dox said, T-gun would've chose to participate in the tourney instead of playing soccer with friends.
Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament.
If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team.
Motivation and wanting it more is great, but it can only get you so far. The players losing to Moonglade also have jobs. NO matter how hard they try, until they get sponsored by a team, they most likely won't have the financial backing to practice 24/7. This is one of the primary reasons why the NA and EU servers are falling behind the Korean server. You grow the scene by giving the people who are not already sponsored the opportunity to get some winnings, so that they have the opportunity to practice for longer hours and be burdened less by the financial aspect. For someone like Moonglade, SC2 is his job, thus its no wonder that he wins all these tourneys.
agree with you, but its a matter of chronological order. You need financial backing before you can practice to your fullest potential. It's good to practice against people who are better than you; that is how you get better. But before you can do that, you need a stable income.
Think of the NA vs Korean scene. Considering that for top NA players, playing against Korean pros is almost mandatory now (NASL, MLG, etc), why are they still getting stomped in tournaments. It's because they don't have the financial backing to practice 24/7. A lot of NA players have to stream to supplement their income, and many others only play part time because of their jobs. They simply don't have the time to practice all day. Look at Incontrol who has to run NASL, and can only practice for a few hours every other night.
Small tournaments like these are the way for un-sponsored players to earn a bit of money so that they can afford to practice more and get better. Then one day they can get to the point of becoming sponsored and becoming another Moonglade.
Thus it should be up Dox to not include players like Moonglade and T-gun, IF his main goal is to stimulate the Sea server to get better.
Yet someone has to get you the financial backing to go to Korea, or the financial backing to be able to practice more. Small tournaments like this helps the non sponsored players become able to better financially support themselves so that they can one day go to Korea or practice enough to become sponsored. If you include the players who already have financial backing, then your basically obstructing the growth the of lesser known players.
I never stated that playing against better players doesn't make you better. The fact is it does. But first you have to find enough time to practice with them on a consistent basis.
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Fml major stop being a dick xdxdxdxd
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EPT
