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Page 26 and onwards I will issue at least two day bans to anyone who clearly has not read the original topic post and the explanations contained therein. He was barred access to the event days before the actual event took place and used some random diamond player his account to try and get in anyway.
Leave the racial bias at the door while you are at it as well pretty please. |
On July 18 2011 19:53 WArped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:49 Carush wrote:
who honestly cares?
sheesh, some of you guys really need some thicker skin, this happens ALL the time, but just cuz Major did it there's a thread with 38 posts.....
hell, I've done shit in tourneys even worse then this, where's my thread? It's this attitude that runs this community into the ground, if more people adopt this attitude where would we be?
I agree, with this attitude, only the highest leveled players could play competitively for money and the growth of E-Sports would decline quickly.
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Well seeing as Major represents a big team with im assuming sponsers i would say its pretty big. He ignores admins just to enter an online tournament and then procedes to insult the admin calling him a "fag".
It comes off as he is a spoilt brat, pretty bad PR for SixJax and any sponsers they have and is going to offend a lot of people.
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On July 18 2011 19:49 Carush wrote:
who honestly cares?
sheesh, some of you guys really need some thicker skin, this happens ALL the time, but just cuz Major did it there's a thread with 38 posts.....
hell, I've done shit in tourneys even worse then this, where's my thread?
Rolemodels - accountability - responsibility - integrity - things that you need to have with a viewership following you. It was forgotten here, a shortcut cheat to more money while already being sponsored. Cheating wouldn't be bad if you didn't impair someone in the proces. Here a sponsored player impairs the rest of the attendees and organisation by his action. Its greedy, foolish and worth frowning upon.
Coming back to your post; thick skin? We need open hearts to become fan and thick skins when they cheat? You can't have one without the other, without fans this site wouldn't excist. Without fans proteams wouldnt excist. Lets all grow thick skins and hardly be impressed by anthing, that will make sure the sc2 scene will die out. Why watch a vod, why login to a stream, why post here if you're not attached to this scene by the performances of one player/team or simply a fan of the game itself.
But rest assured, you'll get a thread if you cheat at a final of a decent tournament.
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Nothing surprising. He's a moron. We all know this.
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On July 18 2011 19:33 ke_ivan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:06 shadymmj wrote:On July 18 2011 19:01 ke_ivan wrote:On July 18 2011 18:44 shadymmj wrote:
People here are like a lynch mob brandishing their pitchforks of good morality. Sure, the guy is a douche, we all know that, but it's a free country. I don't take anything else too seriously other than the game. Starcraft 2 is a game, and there are dicks and griefers in every game. Live with it. No one is obligated to help a scene grow.
If I were as good as him, could possibly smurf, get away with it and split the cash, then why the hell not? Dood, even from a completely ethic-less point of view... ...he got caught through some intellectually-challenged actions. If I were to be incredibly ethically-indisposed myself, I can forgive something like cheating. But I wouldn't be able to forgive something like getting caught. So you're applauding him for being stupid? huh? Either way, ethically or otherwise, his actions were still dumb. He deserves to get a spanking from coach 'tosis. Time to improve your reading comprehension. Show me where I insinuated that what he did should be applauded. I just said that what he did could be justified if he didn't give two fucks about what people think of him as a player. If someone doesn't care about manner and all that nonsense, then grant him his personal space. I'm not asking you to respect him, but I'm asking you not to lynch him. " If I were as good as him, could possibly smurf, get away with it and split the cash, then why the hell not?" You set that as a possibility. If it's possible, and you condone it, it isn't a far stretch to say that you applaud it. You set a conditional statement "If I were as good as him", followed by the actions, followed by an affirmation in the form of a question - "then why the hell not?" So not only do you say that it is justifiable to do something like that, you say that if you were in the same position you'd do the same. If that isn't applause, I don't know what is. After all imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Which is fine. Clearly justifiable. Except he got caught. So why would you want to emulate that? Secondly, you said, "If someone doesn't care about manner and all that nonsense, then grant him his personal space." a) He is a pro-gamer, which means everything he does is associated with his sponsor. That makes things he does professionally (such as joining tournaments) part of the professional/public realm. Which means everybody can whip him and hold pitchforks up as they so please. b) He has the right to not give a shit; the community also has the right to lynch him. c) Legally, you don't just let someone who's attempted to steal from you walk away scott free do you? Hence, there is the term "attempted". Lesser sentence, but still deserved. (Unless you're in the US of A, of course. Sorry US folks, it's true.) Anyway, I'm not on some moral high horse here. I'm saying that even if we lived in an amoral society, major deserves every bit of flak, because he got caught. Comprehensive enough for you?
That line of reasoning is entirely flawed. My statement was used purely as a rational justification for his behaviour. It was a hypothetical scenario - he did, in fact, get caught - so perhaps what you should take out of it is that I condone doing whatever it takes to get cash when it's being proffered to you on a silver platter on the internet. Quite obviously, I do not approve of his getting caught.
a) No? That's entirely up to his sponsor to decide. Quite frankly, all I see is that he is paid to win at Starcraft.
b) Of course you're quite free to criticise anyone on the internet. However, I personally disapprove.
c) You want to be careful with your terminology. Stealing (or attempted theft) is a crime, and so you are insinuating that he is a criminal. Unfortunately casual transactions in the context of internet gaming is by-and-large unregulated by any government body.
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On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:09 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 18:06 BackSideAttack wrote:
If the true purpose of this tournament was to grow the Sea Server scene...then why would you allow T-gun, who's going through Koreans training, to play. I understand that your trying to grow the scene, but inviting a sea player with Korean training is no diff than allowing major to play. In the end your exposing the scene to competition that you were trying to avoid in the first place. It's also important to show that working hard to improve your play as an SEA player pays off. You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness. I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server. I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him.
I'm sorry but this isn't right. I don't know if you've played any games at a high level yourself, but here's something that I believe most "pro gamers" if not "All" agree on, and this is just about for every genre.
If you play against better players who ROFLstomp you, you will improve faster. If you leave people at the same level to compete against each other they'll improve at a much slowly rate.
I've played a few games against these "pros" the lessons you get by having your face smashed in is quite high. I remember the first time I did an AoE tournament and I thought the other guy was cheating, because it just wasn't possible he could be that good, I check the replay and found out "wow, this guy is way better than me." and learned from him and studied the replay over and over, and improved myself.
That's just one example, I have 3rd strike examples too ^.^ and that guy beat me 100x in a row at first.
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Pretty funny, though not from the perspective of Artosis and sixjax sponsors most likely.
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I hope sixJax fine him with couple of thousand dollars, and several tourneys ban him.
It's all a learning process, punishment is the best way to learn for some people.
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On July 18 2011 15:01 TT1 wrote:
muhahaha thank god you guys wernt around back in the sc1 days, this really isnt a big deal : D
not saying wat he did was right but when your like 16-17 you kinda just ignore your sense of judgement =], dont over blow the situation
You're right. Major's smurfing was nothing compared to your hacking.
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A little side question about Major / how multiple names work; Since he changes his name so often, does SC2ranks or anywhere online show his old name?? (im talking one account, using the namechange function, I know new accounts can't be traced)..
Like can you see his current account now, say its SixJaxMajor, and on SC2ranks it'll show in brackets (Used to be ROOTPrincess) or anything like that anywhere online??
(for my curiosity, not specifically for Major)
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On July 18 2011 20:01 GertHeart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:09 Novalisk wrote:
[quote]
It's also important to show that working hard to improve your play as an SEA player pays off. You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness. I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server. I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. I'm sorry but this isn't right. I don't know if you've played any games at a high level yourself, but here's something that I believe most "pro gamers" if not "All" agree on, and this is just about for every genre. If you play against better players who ROFLstomp you, you will improve faster. If you leave people at the same level to compete against each other they'll improve at a much slowly rate. I've played a few games against these "pros" the lessons you get by having your face smashed in is quite high. I remember the first time I did an AoE tournament and I thought the other guy was cheating, because it just wasn't possible he could be that good, I check the replay and found out "wow, this guy is way better than me." and learned from him and studied the replay over and over, and improved myself. That's just one example, I have 3rd strike examples too ^.^ and that guy beat me 100x in a row at first.
This 100%
Why do you think players go to Korea? So that they can play the best players out there and improve.
You improve alot faster playing players better than you than training with people around your level.
Better players will take advantage of any mistake you make and will punish you for making stupid decisions.
This goes for any sport, the higher level of opposition you compete against the higher you can progess as a player.
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On July 18 2011 20:03 Lennon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 15:01 TT1 wrote:
muhahaha thank god you guys wernt around back in the sc1 days, this really isnt a big deal : D
not saying wat he did was right but when your like 16-17 you kinda just ignore your sense of judgement =], dont over blow the situation You're right. Major's smurfing was nothing compared to your hacking.
TT1 got banned for a week BTW. That being said I am conflicted about the differences between the two, although I will admit hacking is more obvious.
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On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:09 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 18:06 BackSideAttack wrote:
If the true purpose of this tournament was to grow the Sea Server scene...then why would you allow T-gun, who's going through Koreans training, to play. I understand that your trying to grow the scene, but inviting a sea player with Korean training is no diff than allowing major to play. In the end your exposing the scene to competition that you were trying to avoid in the first place. It's also important to show that working hard to improve your play as an SEA player pays off. You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness. I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server. I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him.
Excluding the best players on the server from the the tournament is not good for the server's growth. You mind as well ban all grandmasters while you're at it.
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What MajOr did was wrong, but you guys are taking this way out of proportion. SJ management need to be warned, and he has already recieved community backlash for what he has done. That is the punishment he needs. There is no need to exclude him from future tournaments or make him pay for smurfing in a tournament. He didn't win anything from it, anyways.
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On July 18 2011 20:07 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:09 Novalisk wrote:
[quote]
It's also important to show that working hard to improve your play as an SEA player pays off. You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness. I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server. I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. Excluding the best players on the server from the the tournament is not good for the server's growth. You mind as well ban all grandmasters while you're at it.
Whatever happens, the tournament organisers always choose who plays and who doesn't if they dont want certain people to play they cant play, end of story. The fact that people will try to ignore the people putting all the hard work into a tournament just to win some cash is very disapointing and unproffesional.
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On July 18 2011 20:03 Lennon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 15:01 TT1 wrote:
muhahaha thank god you guys wernt around back in the sc1 days, this really isnt a big deal : D
not saying wat he did was right but when your like 16-17 you kinda just ignore your sense of judgement =], dont over blow the situation You're right. Major's smurfing was nothing compared to your hacking.
not nice.
TT1; the issue is, back in the BW days on iccup, barely any team had "real" sponsors, paying a salary (not that I know if Major is getting one or not), but when the possibility of having that salary taken away from you, you think twice about doing stupid shit like smurfing tournies/clanwars.
But I know, I played on afew iccup teams where they had 1 guy play all four of the 1v1 matches lol It was ultra lame, but eh thats BW for you. Granted, it was with all the guys on iccup like hungtran and seek, who eventually all got caught hacking too, so shady is their business.
In SC2, given the large prize pools, and teams actually dishing out a salary to the majority of their teams not just the one star player like BW did, this really shouldnt be happening.
Seems like Sixjax didnt punish him much, but im sure his leash just got tighter.
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On July 18 2011 20:07 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:09 Novalisk wrote:
[quote]
It's also important to show that working hard to improve your play as an SEA player pays off. You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness. I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server. I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. Excluding the best players on the server from the the tournament is not good for the server's growth. You mind as well ban all grandmasters while you're at it.
And there are tournaments that do that, BSG/GPD tournaments that limit participation to those division. Just like there are SEA events that allow anyone with an account to play. It's up to the tournament organizer to decide where their tournament lies.
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On July 18 2011 20:10 ReaperX wrote:
What MajOr did was wrong, but you guys are taking this way out of proportion. SJ management need to be warned, and he has already recieved community backlash for what he has done. That is the punishment he needs. There is no need to exclude him from future tournaments or make him pay for smurfing in a tournament. He didn't win anything from it, anyways.
he didn't win anything because he was caught before he was able to get any money. And Dox's rules stated that anyone caught cheating would be banned from all future tournaments. As SEA organisers are tight-knit as well, he has been banned from a few tournaments as well. It's a proper punishment.
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On July 18 2011 20:01 GertHeart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:09 Novalisk wrote:
[quote]
It's also important to show that working hard to improve your play as an SEA player pays off. You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness. I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server. I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. I'm sorry but this isn't right. I don't know if you've played any games at a high level yourself, but here's something that I believe most "pro gamers" if not "All" agree on, and this is just about for every genre. If you play against better players who ROFLstomp you, you will improve faster. If you leave people at the same level to compete against each other they'll improve at a much slowly rate. I've played a few games against these "pros" the lessons you get by having your face smashed in is quite high. I remember the first time I did an AoE tournament and I thought the other guy was cheating, because it just wasn't possible he could be that good, I check the replay and found out "wow, this guy is way better than me." and learned from him and studied the replay over and over, and improved myself. That's just one example, I have 3rd strike examples too ^.^ and that guy beat me 100x in a row at first.
I agree with you, but its a matter of chronological order. You need financial backing before you can practice to your fullest potential. It's good to practice against people who are better than you; that is how you get better. But before you can do that, you need a stable income.
Think of the NA vs Korean scene. Considering that for top NA players, playing against Korean pros is almost mandatory now (NASL, MLG, etc), why are they still getting stomped in tournaments. It's because they don't have the financial backing to practice 24/7. A lot of NA players have to stream to supplement their income, and many others only play part time because of their jobs. They simply don't have the time to practice all day. Look at Incontrol who has to run NASL, and can only practice for a few hours every other night.
Small tournaments like these are the way for un-sponsored players to earn a bit of money so that they can afford to practice more and get better. Then one day they can get to the point of becoming sponsored and becoming another Moonglade.
Thus it should be up Dox to not include players like Moonglade and T-gun, IF his main goal is to stimulate the Sea server to get better.
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On July 18 2011 20:10 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 20:07 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:55 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:44 Novalisk wrote:On July 18 2011 19:39 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 19:16 iaguz wrote:On July 18 2011 19:06 mTw|NarutO wrote:On July 18 2011 18:56 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 18 2011 18:40 HitMonkie wrote:On July 18 2011 18:29 BackSideAttack wrote:
[quote]
You don't need to invite T-gun to show people that hard work pays off. Especially considering that T-gun's success is not attributed to practice on the Sea server. Matter of fact it would be detrimental to the scene because it exposes people to the Sea server's lack of competitiveness.
I agree that in the beginning, the intent was to boost the Sea server scene. Your trying to inject some funds and motivation to accelerate the growth of the server's players. All of the criteria for entry lead me to believe this (Sea account, and native citizenship). However, it was the lack of foresight that led to their decision to become discriminatory. They most likely did not anticipate someone of T-gun's caliber participating. But, because he met all of the criteria set in motion, they "technically" have to let him through. If T-gun wins the money, this in no way helps the scene grow. He's someone who is already set. If you really wanted the scene to grow you would cater to the unknowns, not someone who has already established themselves beyond the skill of the server.
I guess major probably shouldn't have smurfed. That was his bad. But the tournament is also in the wrong for incriminating him further by offering a stopgap excuse for why he isn't allowed to play and what they are trying to do. If your going to condemn him for breaking the rules, then you have every right to do so. But you need to admit your lack of foresight caused this scenario in the first place. What? So they should of had the "Foresight" to know that major was gonna cheat to play in the tournament? And Tgun inclusion in no way harms to level of play in the Tourney, there are players in SEA that are just as skilled as Tgun if not better. and most of them are not "SET" as you put it, like he is. Please don't post ignorant statements on what you think the level SEA is. There are good players on the server, just without the funds to go fulltime Progamers. K let me give you another example. With the stated criteria they would've had to admit Moonglade as well, if he wanted to play. Moonglade is probably the best player to come out of the Sea server, and he too is set just like T-gun. Having someone like Moonglade take the money does nothing to benefit the server. The only way to grow the scene is to inject the money into the hidden gems, helping them become financially stable enough to become a progamer. Giving the prize money to someone like Moonglade, who is already financially stable would not help the scene. Dox should've had the foresight to make more restricting criteria, so that players like T-gun and Moonglade couldn't have joined if they wanted to. If he wanted to host a tournament with just sea players then thats absolutely fine. But to say that the point was to inject funds in order to better the server, then allowing people like t-gun and moonglade to play would be counterproductive. What you are saying makes no sense. Where is the motivation to practice and be as good as T-Gun or mOOnglaDe when you then may not participate in those tournaments to make some money? If they are the best on the SEA server thats how it is and they will win... Money is motivation for others to train to become AS good so they can actually compete for the money next time. As the bloke who got second in this tournament to Glade, again (sigh), I can assure you that naruto is right fucking bang on with this. There'll be a next time Andy. Just by going to the IEM world championship, Moonglade was guaranteed 400 dollars. By winning he would've won 13,000 dollars. (He ended up winning 2500) By going to the GSL WC he was guaranteed 2,700 with the possibility of making 27,000. In this tourney you can win 350 for first place. From a purely monetary standpoint, the incentive he gets from this tournament are substantially less than any of the lucrative, invite only tournaments. He gets more money getting knocked out of the first round of IEM world championship than he does for winning this tournament. If the good of the server as a whole is what Dox was aiming for as he basically stated in his post, then he should favor the unknowns. Especially since the small amount of lost incentive someone like Moonglade incurs is easily off set by the positives of providing financial stability to a less known player such as yourself, so that you can train and one day become sponsored on a major pro-team. That should be Moonglade's decision, not the tournament's. No, if Dox wants whats good for the server as a whole, then it should be the tournament's decision to exclude him. Excluding the best players on the server from the the tournament is not good for the server's growth. You mind as well ban all grandmasters while you're at it. Whatever happens, the tournament organisers always choose who plays and who doesn't if they dont want certain people to play they cant play, end of story. The fact that people will try to ignore the people putting all the hard work into a tournament just to win some cash is very disapointing and unproffesional.
The organizer has every right to do that and no-one is trying to take away from his hardwork. The point I've been disputing is that if your going to call out a player and supplement his incrimination with how "your doing this to make the sea server better" then you should back it up. If Dox had just said I told Major he couldn't play because the server is for sea residents then its ok. But instead he also talked about his intent behind the tournament is to make the server better, thus i expect his rules to fall in line with that. As i analzyed in one of my numerous other posts, inviting moonglade and t-gun does not further this objective.
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