It has been 1.5 weeks since I left the mighty GOM house in Mok Dong, South Korea. I miss my team dearly and am looking forward to them arriving in Kuala Lumpur at a later date.
This is somewhat of a Blog post, so feel free to move it, however, I am going to explain that its content is not a day by day diary of what was going on in Korea. Its a perspective that I hope changes the perspective of Korea for the better.
And so, it begins.
One of my initial thoughts upon arriving in Korea, was the convenience of flights from outside of Asia. It seems most flights from Asia, are red eye flights and tend to land early morning. The flights are always early/ontime and customs has no line up. It generally takes between 10-20 minutes to have your bags and be on the train to your destination.
However, flights from abroad, seem to arrive around the 5pm mark, and there is a higher density of flights. As we experienced with most arrivals, they were late by about 30 minutes, and customs was a relatively tedious exercise. However, a small price to pay to meet up with 'family'.
Highlight: When i picked up thegunrun from the airport, the guy infront of me kept doing yoga, and farting at the same time... Was relatively impressive how he blankly ignored that fact.. I quickly moved away. ________________________________________________________________________
Now, this definitely wasn't the first time I had been to Korea, or overseas for that matter. I am on my 3rd passport since 2009, so I definitely know how to collect stamps. However Korea is a very unique place. The people all look somewhat depressed, however when you try to talk to them, they greet you with one of the largest smiles I have ever seen. Theres alot of public drunkeness on any single night and it seems like there is some sort of hidden pain in the country. Personally, I think this kind of culture in a relatively developed society, is somewhat interesting. I am not going to question why things are like this. It just needs to be known that even though the people have a depressed looking exterior say, in the street. When you actually meet or talk to a Korean person, they are the most friendly and respectful people in the entire world. There is another culture that is identical, but i won't mention them in order to not insult any koreans.
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. _____________________________________________________________________
One of the things in the world that I love the most is food. I have been known to spend large sums of money just to eat my favourite foods in different locations. For instance, i wanted Mexican food in greece, I paid out the ass for it. But I enjoyed it. In Korea, you can get like 200 dumplings for USD28. We literally fed 10 of us on dumplings for $28. And they were damn good dumplings too! One of the other things we ate alot of was Korea BBQ, although a little more expensive than dumplings, for 10 people I was spending approximately $8 per person. Again, it was amazing food lots of meat. Um nom nom nom. Its one of the things I already miss about Korea, the only downside was, its hard to find a place to order something like a ceaser salad, for those 'diet' days.
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
Gaming vs Koreans can be a very frustrating, but insightful exercise. I have said it before on TL that there is such a high density of skilled korean players, platinum players would play high masters on North America, and most of grand master on NA would be low-mid master on Korea. Minus the obvious stars of course. The fact that you can go on ladder, and play vs someone who can execute things so much better than Americans or Europeans, means that with some time, you are going to get better. I believe after the 300 games I played in Korea, I am officially 'better' than I was on north america. For a bunch of reasons.. Firstly, I saw different types of strategies that North American ladder players do not do. Secondly, I played vs more refined players who don't have holes in their strategies. They can just make strategic mistakes such as making the wrong composition vs my own strategy. Which in the end gets me the win........ There were few of these.
Highlight: Watching the world cry at our FXOteam account being in platinum, whilst tgun and the likes are playing players in High masters and grandmasters. Players such as rainbow, slayers_legalmind, nuclearfOu, and of course NEXPuzzle. It showed to me, the world really doesn't know what matters in Starcraft 2. I hope this ads some insight.
Fact: We discovered that on Korea, you only get promoted league by league, IE Plat -> Diamond -> Masters -> GM. It also depended on the number of games you played, however I attributed that to a flattening of the MMR%. Optikzero was the first player to Masters from FXO. Grandmasters is not going to happen because its too active on Korean server. ____________________________________________________________________
Player practice is one of the hardest things to organise in ones life. Being from certain 'lands of the free' and 'homes of the brave'. We are accustomed to pretty much doing whatever we want without recourse. Getting people from Western society into a solid practice regime took alot of time, and will power. But eventually we got it. Albeit, pretty much as I left, however success is success. I think the majority of FXO players now truly know what they have to put in, in order to be the best. Someone mentioned recently about how the Westerners need the "western way" not the Korean way. I don't particularly agree with the phrasing on this. Purely because it should be "What works" and "what doesntt work". Rather than making it a somewhat racial issue. Which is what the community seems to be wanting to emphasize lately.
Koreans are what? 12 years ahead of the rest of the world with gaming mentalities and ideas? They know their shit (to put it bluntly). I have effectively learned from them, and taken note and tried to apply it to my own team. Now its just a matter of time until we see the progress.
Highlight: Players originally said that 8 hours could be too much practice. So we scheduled 8 hours practice. Un-beknown to the players that I already knew that when practice was over they'd play.. They ended up doing 10-12 hours practice a day... HAHA SUCKERS.
Fact: A true practice schedule is no shorter than 8 hours, and no longer than 14 hours. Anything less is under doing it anything between 13 or more can be over doing it. One must sleep, eat and poop in order to be somewhat comfortable. Those with 'natural' talent will probably slip and fall if they can't keep up with those who put in the large number of hours to become the best. This is one thing I salute HUK for.. He has proven that he wants to be the best, and has improved significantly by putting in the hours. Although a great player he was not the best before going to Korea. <3 Huk ___________________________________________________________________
GOM Studio experience. I love GOM, I really do, well.. I love most of GOM. (Hi John). And they certainly have done the best for us, and helped us be as comfortable as possible. I have huge thanks to them and I owe them in some way. Without them this all wouldnt happen. But now its time to get critical.
Firstly, THE FLAMEGUNS... What the hell are you doing making people walk between fire? I almost got burned numerous times, and I think a bunch of other people almost got burned also. I doubt insurance covers that I think it was TT1 who had an ear miss with one of them during Korea vs the world?) Its only a matter of time before someone gets hurt from them.
Secondly, The team Bench.
The team bench is a bit dangerous. When we sit down, we can almost move the whole thing with one butt movement. If it collapses, i can see someone getting impaled with timber. Its dangerous.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Good things about GOM studio
Its efficient.... Things get done quickly and as best as they can be. Players have ample time to set up, are given help, and they always help out with english translation no matter what.
The crowd is minimal, this allows players to focus more on playing. During MLG I had to drag certain players from FANs whilst it was game time, because my players were clearly distressed. I'm not saying to keep fans away, just that there is a time and place
The korean casters. The most prepared, professional, amazing casters out there. They don't talk crap on stream, they talk serious starcraft sport. They are what e-sport should represent, even if they do silly video introductions to players They talk about a players play, they are ex progamers, so they know their shit. I think eventually the western e-sports scene will get english commentators of similar charisma, when the scene starts to get a little older. Kudos to Gisado and the gang.
Highlight: After make up is done, tgun looks like a transvestite... Discuss (j/k love you tgun) ___________________________________________________________________
I left this discussion till last. Mostly because although my posts go unnoticed in the TL community to the majority. Its the most important one and I feel a necessity to all gamers.
CODE A QUALIFIERS.
Ever had so much tension in the air that you could cut through it with a knife? This is the place. When you see players like PUMA lose first round, DRG lose to Hero, QXC go through 2 base trades then lose to DRG. Cezzane lose to i think puzzle, and burst into tears. There were many a tear shed at the code A qualifiers. It is the most intense gaming environment ever. And theres no crowd at all (thank god). If a progamer doesn't ever go through code A qualifiers, then they most definitely haven't done it all. It is an experience to boost expectations, to understand how good you truly are or truly can be, and to understand that sometimes someone is better than you. I almost had a heart attack at the event, and I was just watching (my games didn't last very long TYVM zenex player). But I had alot more pleasure watching players play. Its an amazing experience, and its not to be over looked. If a team has the budget to send their player just for that tournament. IT WILL MAKE THEM BETTER! Its a worthy investment.
Highlight: Watching FXOz's bracket and noticing that if he were to qualify, he would have to play PVP EVERY GAME to make Code A.... If he didnt lose to classic.prime, his opponent would have been NEXPuzzle. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles
I may have spent alot of money on Korea, but it was totally worth it minus a few hiccups. My players are now able to say they know how to do it. They have made friends with other pro gamers who respect them and WANT to play with them. They have the knowledge to teach other gamers how to do it.
I love Korea, and so should every gamer out there. Without Korea, gaming is just a hobby.
Thanks to TL, RAZER, Redbull, Coca cola, Mountain Dew, Asus and all our other partners for supporting us through this journey.
Thanks to my players for helping me help them, and a huge thanks to GOM and especially Torch for making us feel welcome and comfortable.
And finally, thanks to Korea, for being the awesome gaming beast that you are. I look forward to creating something similar to you in Malaysia
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Great story ruined by your opinion of it.
Truth hurts.
You should visit Canada.
I have visited Canada many times. I got a free beer because some guy believed I rode a Kangaroo to school as a kid. But I don't get your reference. Canadians are friendly people, but no where in my post did I mention canada.
Really brings out the human aspect of the team (the tgun trolling) and the seriousness that you need to become the best.
Never knew about the flames, you may want to bring it up with Mr. Chae or whoever is in charge, though I think you've probably done that.
Now, just one question that has been bugging me for a while, what happened to the Malaysian house? It was set-up for the team, then they moved to Korea o.o
Azzur, the house is a little out of the way, but its possible providing I am in Malaysia personally. We can arrange a net cafe meet up with some of the Malaysia community if you like. Private room net cafe etc.
On July 15 2011 16:10 FXOpen wrote: Slog and OZ will join me in Malaysia end of August, and then team will come slowly to the house... Its ready Just people have ot sort their lives.
I stayed in KL for 4 years, lovely city to live in. Sounds like the players will have a good time ahead of them, assuming you don't crack the whip too hard.
On July 15 2011 16:13 FXOpen wrote: Azzur, the house is a little out of the way, but its possible providing I am in Malaysia personally. We can arrange a net cafe meet up with some of the Malaysia community if you like. Private room net cafe etc.
Sounds great! I'll contact you closer to time to check if you're available
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
The qualifiers seems so intense, next qualifiers will include: MMA, boxer, puma, ace, squirtle, sage, hero, DRG, san
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Highlight: Watching FXOz's bracket and noticing that if he were to qualify, he would have to play PVP EVERY GAME to make Code A.... If he didnt lose to creator prime, his opponent would have been NEXPuzzle. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
I love artosis and tasteless, consider them great people, and as my friends. But they do have moments of the 10%.
Unstable is probably the least 'joking' of the casters out there but has other things to fix. I am working on a few things with him as we speak. Wolf has the joke problem. Doa, moletrap, kelly, pretty much every foreign caster really. Basically, my point is, when pitching sc2 to someone who isn't from SC2, they dont care if its tastosis, or even me commentating, the dumb jokes just make it look unprofessional... Hence my view they have to stop.
On July 15 2011 16:19 illsick wrote: The qualifiers seems so intense, next qualifiers will include: MMA, boxer, puma, ace, squirtle, sage, hero, DRG, san
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Highlight: Watching FXOz's bracket and noticing that if he were to qualify, he would have to play PVP EVERY GAME to make Code A.... If he didnt lose to creator prime, his opponent would have been NEXPuzzle. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles
I hope / wish that more western teams take that journey to Korea for at least a month (I'm sure GOM would help out with housing!). There are a lot of western pros who assume and say "we know what the koreans do, we know what we need to do, we're just fine" but as the results of every recent major tournament shows, western teams (outside of Team Liquid) really don't. Kudos to you guys at FXO for taking action rather than just talking about practicing and improving. Although the results weren't the best, I'm sure the team has learned a lot and the experience will definitely help you guys out in the long run.
Off Topic: Whatever happened to Moonglade? He seems to have fallen off the face of the earth.
Oh man, I totally agree with you about the jokes. I think Wolf tries a bit too hard (sorry wolf), for example yesterday's "ladies and Pumas"...that he had to explain to get his cocaster to understand...being funny is fine, but I think that lately GSL has been on a tear of "color" commentators and they're all trying to be funnier than each other. At some point I just want an Artosis-style cast, just drop some knowledge.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
The main problem I have with the English casting is how they talk down to the players. Most casters are guilty of this, but especially Wolf, and most of the time he's not even strategically correct. I can hardly remember a game where he doesn't say how bad a certain player was when he's missing a drop in the main or just doesn't understand exactly what it is the player is doing. I don't mind a player being criticized when he is making blatant mistakes, but I do mind a player being criticized for the simple fact that he lost a battle, or is falling behind in the game when they are competing against some of the best players in the world.
Nice read! very interessting experience about korean esports!
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Thanks to TL, RAZER, Redbull, Coca cola, Mountain Dew, Asus and all our other partners for supporting us through this journey.
Supporting with more then great drinks?
Edit: And I agree with Boss about the jokes. Especial on NASL where they had a loooot of time between games. The jokes was most times very silly. Yes sometimes they where great but most times it was unprofessional
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
I love artosis and tasteless, consider them great people, and as my friends. But they do have moments of the 10%.
Unstable is probably the least 'joking' of the casters out there but has other things to fix. I am working on a few things with him as we speak. Wolf has the joke problem. Doa, moletrap, kelly, pretty much every foreign caster really. Basically, my point is, when pitching sc2 to someone who isn't from SC2, they dont care if its tastosis, or even me commentating, the dumb jokes just make it look unprofessional... Hence my view they have to stop.
Isn't that part of how things work in the West though? In sports there's plenty of breaks between plays, intermissions, whatever and the broadcasters will sometimes go off on a tangent or make a joke here and then. There will always be downtime and there's only so much you can say about previous games, the player, their team, whatever. There are some moments I wish Tasteless would cut his story short and start talking about something the observer just scrolled across in-game early on but the rest is enjoyable.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
I love artosis and tasteless, consider them great people, and as my friends. But they do have moments of the 10%.
Unstable is probably the least 'joking' of the casters out there but has other things to fix. I am working on a few things with him as we speak. Wolf has the joke problem. Doa, moletrap, kelly, pretty much every foreign caster really. Basically, my point is, when pitching sc2 to someone who isn't from SC2, they dont care if its tastosis, or even me commentating, the dumb jokes just make it look unprofessional... Hence my view they have to stop.
Isn't that part of how things work in the West though? In sports there's plenty of breaks between plays, intermissions, whatever and the broadcasters will sometimes go off on a tangent or make a joke here and then. There will always be downtime and there's only so much you can say about previous games, the player, their team, whatever. There are some moments I wish Tasteless would cut his story short and start talking about something the observer just scrolled across in-game early on but the rest is enjoyable.
I agree as well. Part of the appeal of Tastosis is that they sometimes make jokes. I feel that it's not necessary do it exactly as the koreans since the west has a different culture. I think there should be a line though about the amount of jokes - I remember a cast between Wolf and QXC where I thought it was a little overboard.
I really like the banter (read: LAME JOKES) coming from english commentators, it really makes the viewing experience more enjoyable. I would say as with one of the previous posters that WOLF is a bit critical of the players - especially with what he believes to be strategically correct. That would be my biggest annoyance with the casting.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
I love artosis and tasteless, consider them great people, and as my friends. But they do have moments of the 10%.
Unstable is probably the least 'joking' of the casters out there but has other things to fix. I am working on a few things with him as we speak. Wolf has the joke problem. Doa, moletrap, kelly, pretty much every foreign caster really. Basically, my point is, when pitching sc2 to someone who isn't from SC2, they dont care if its tastosis, or even me commentating, the dumb jokes just make it look unprofessional... Hence my view they have to stop.
Isn't that part of how things work in the West though? In sports there's plenty of breaks between plays, intermissions, whatever and the broadcasters will sometimes go off on a tangent or make a joke here and then. There will always be downtime and there's only so much you can say about previous games, the player, their team, whatever. There are some moments I wish Tasteless would cut his story short and start talking about something the observer just scrolled across in-game early on but the rest is enjoyable.
I agree as well. Part of the appeal of Tastosis is that they sometimes make jokes. I feel that it's not necessary do it exactly as the koreans since the west has a different culture. I think there should be a line though about the amount of jokes - I remember a cast between Wolf and QXC where I thought it was a little overboard.
Its true on a communal extent. People love artosis and tasteless cos they are artosis and tasteless. They are gamers, for gamers.
Broader picture if money is to continue streaming into gaming, there has to be some level of professionalism where the sappy jokes are eliminated. As I stated, good jokes, are good. Good commentary is better. But there is no room for 'tasteless' or even 'vulgar' jokes. Its a somewhat bad image, and usually its the bad things people pick up on...
English casters have Tastosis and they do have awkward moments where they say something that might offend someone. I still think they are the most professional out of all the casters along with Day9. They are far better than QXC which is just fucking bizarre.
Seems like you had a good time in Korea. Some great insight seeing the trip through your eyes.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
The main problem I have with the English casting is how they talk down to the players. Most casters are guilty of this, but especially Wolf, and most of the time he's not even strategically correct. I can hardly remember a game where he doesn't say how bad a certain player was when he's missing a drop in the main or just doesn't understand exactly what it is the player is doing. I don't mind a player being criticized when he is making blatant mistakes, but I do mind a player being criticized for the simple fact that he lost a battle, or is falling behind in the game when they are competing against some of the best players in the world.
Thissssss.
Wolf is good when he's on his game, but at times I find his commentary very irritating and condescending. Tastosis is somewhat the same way, but they are on the ball more often than not, which helps tremendously; when they aren't, however, I have the sudden urge to mute the stream. Either that or I just quit the stream to watch it later when it's cast by the Chinese casters (who joke far less but have more substance to their casting).
I personally enjoy some of the jokes that Tastosis make, but also realize that 90% of the general population wouldn't get them. Compare this to ESPN, anyone can watch a game on ESPN and the commentators do not make "in" jokes. For E-Sports to become mainstream I think those sort of jokes need to be phased out.
Regarding caster criticism, I think it is needed to make the commentary interesting, but the tone of it needs to be changed a bit. Mistakes are mistakes and they should be pointed out, but the tone of the criticism could be less critical and more didactic.
On July 15 2011 16:42 RedDeckWins wrote: I personally enjoy some of the jokes that Tastosis make, but also realize that 90% of the general population wouldn't get them. Compare this to ESPN, anyone can watch a game on ESPN and the commentators do not make "in" jokes. For E-Sports to become mainstream I think those sort of jokes need to be phased out.
Regarding caster criticism, I think it is needed to make the commentary interesting, but the tone of it needs to be changed a bit. Mistakes are mistakes and they should be pointed out, but the tone of the criticism could be less critical and more didactic.
That goes against the point of CRITICISM (EMPHASIS!) from a caster perspective, otherwise you get your average twat saying everyone is good, that build is "interesting" (translation = terrible).
I introduced GSL to a few people, and they loved Tastosis BECAUSE of the jokes. It's not unprofessional, it's just another way of doing it. Sports commentators come in all the colours of the rainbow.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
Have you considered that the English commentators are at the mercy of the Korean schedule? At least in GSL, the Korean commentators dictate the timing and flow, and the English commentators must adapt on the fly, which leads to those moments of randomness. Perhaps the commentators are not to blame, but the behind the scene staff. Just throwing ideas out there.
On July 15 2011 16:42 RedDeckWins wrote: I personally enjoy some of the jokes that Tastosis make, but also realize that 90% of the general population wouldn't get them. Compare this to ESPN, anyone can watch a game on ESPN and the commentators do not make "in" jokes. For E-Sports to become mainstream I think those sort of jokes need to be phased out.
Regarding caster criticism, I think it is needed to make the commentary interesting, but the tone of it needs to be changed a bit. Mistakes are mistakes and they should be pointed out, but the tone of the criticism could be less critical and more didactic.
That goes against the point of CRITICISM (EMPHASIS!) from a caster perspective, otherwise you get your average twat saying everyone is good, that build is "interesting" (translation = terrible).
English fail by me, I meant the other c- word, condescending
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
Have you considered that the English commentators are at the mercy of the Korean schedule? At least in GSL, the Korean commentators dictate the timing and flow, and the English commentators must adapt on the fly, which leads to those moments of randomness. Perhaps the commentators are not to blame, but the behind the scene staff. Just throwing ideas out there.
Thats why you have this..
Schedule
- General intro - In case korean commentators excessively carry on, we do this
Rather than just playing it by ear. It would make things alot smoother. Thats how the koreans fill in gaps when there are technical problems.
At the same time. People are taking me a little out of context. I didnt say "STOP ALL JOKES".. I said "stop the crappy jokes"... Keep the good ones.. Talking about a kerrigan asking you on a date, is not funny.
Woah, awesome read, very enlightening. I'm glad FXO guys are advancing, I'm really looking forward to them becoming serious competitors in some months.
I also like to know you haven't mentioned, what's Seoul like in Korea? how are they compare to say NewYork or other big city in america? are they as amazing as people say?
good casters can carry a bad set of games/matches SO FAR and a lot of it has to do with the side banter/jokes that may or may not be related to the actual game taking place.
maintaining a sense of professionalism is important but so is being able to maintain the entertainment value for the viewers. when a game isn't providing enough quality content to keep up a certain degree of entertainment, the source for entertainment tends to have to come from the casters to keep the audience interested and maintaining professionalism isn't always the best course to keep the audience interested.
I have no idea what the Korean audience desires from their casters, but I wouldn't be surprised if caster expectations are different between Korean & western audiences.
On July 15 2011 16:58 OooLong wrote: I also like to know you haven't mentioned, what's Seoul like in Korea? how are they compare to say NewYork or other big city in america? are they as amazing as people say?
Seoul is extremely friendly. Although we were not in seoul (i was for 2 days but thats something else) I can say that the people are great throughout korea. From incheon to seoul... Gimpo etc. Its just an amazing place for foreigners.
That being said, you asked me to compare to new york. And being a trader, new york is my bread and butter. So its hard to compare the two Both are great.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
Well ideally they should be talking about the game, I think the Koreans talk more about the game and joke less. Correct me if I'm wrong. Not to say that the joking is not entertaining though.
Also, I agree the casters can be better. Tastosis keep premature GG'ing. That's not fun. It just shows a hint of disrespect to the player (for saying that they have lost the game, while the player himself has not yet decided to type GG), and it destroys "hype". A casters job is to analyze/explain the game and make things more interesting, not to tell the player "ok, I think he's going to give up now". Sure, every now and then is OK in some situations, but they do it almost every single game "Expect GG any second now." Like I mean, why would I want to expect that? I want to hope for an epic comeback, y'know? xD
everything is fine but I dont agree at all with the criticism to the casting archon. they are professional they know when to stop some jokes, and artosis game analysis is really good.
I know this might not exactly be related to Korea and your experience there, but I must say that it's really awesome to see how much effort FXO is putting into Starcraft and the community behind it. Even though FXO hasn't had the best performance in Korea just yet, I think most everyone can see that FXO has the potential to do really well and I think that in a few months FXO can easily be a top foreign team whether still in Korea or not.
Everything you guys are doing for the community is just great too... the casting, the shows, everything. You guys are really showing that you care about the community a lot and I think it's a really positive thing for everyone. Not many teams show the same kind of passion for the game and the community that FXO does and that's why I think that you guys deserve a lot of respect. Thanks a lot for what you guys have done so far and keep up the good work!
Yeah I agree with you Boss about foreign casters, it's just to little strategy talk and talk about players and playstyle overall imo. But then again, we don't really have those kind of people to give us that. We have Artosis and Day9 and Tasteless is somewhat still stuck in BW and doesn't contribute much when it comes to Starcraft 2 related things like Artosis does.
Also, tell Wolf to stop with his ladder stories. ^~^
The only thing I really dislike about Artosis and Tasteless is, for example from the Super Tournament they give so much praise to a player like Nestea for almost staging a comeback in the games he lost to TOP but they gave no credit to a player to TOP they resorted to saying that TOP cheesed Nestea out of the tournament... They couldn't just say TOP was the better player in the series or he outplayed him? Since Tastosis is so popular their opinion affects how they react to the player, so a lot of people also started bashing TOP.
I may sound like a TOP fanboy with this post... well good because I am one.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Funny that you'd say that when your casters are the ones most guilty of it. That being said, I actually like the jokes (stupid as they are), but I 100% agree with everything else.
Thanks for the insight on Korea! What stood out most to me was probably the comparison of KR plat to NA masters and KR mid masters to NA grandmasters. Damn.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Funny that you'd say that when your casters are the ones most guilty of it. That being said, I actually like the jokes (stupid as they are), but I 100% agree with everything else.
Thanks for the insight on Korea! What stood out most to me was probably the comparison of KR plat to NA masters and KR mid masters to NA grandmasters. Damn.
Yes, but FXOpen said the bad jokes were maining Wolf's fault.
Player practice is one of the hardest things to organise in ones life. Being from certain 'lands of the free' and 'homes of the brave'. We are accustomed to pretty much doing whatever we want without recourse. Getting people from Western society into a solid practice regime took alot of time, and will power. But eventually we got it. Albeit, pretty much as I left, however success is success. I think the majority of FXO players now truly know what they have to put in, in order to be the best. Someone mentioned recently about how the Westerners need the "western way" not the Korean way. I don't particularly agree with the phrasing on this. Purely because it should be "What works" and "what doesntt work". Rather than making it a somewhat racial issue. Which is what the community seems to be wanting to emphasize lately.
Great stuff right here. A lot of people don't realize that when foreign pros stream ladders games, they aren't really "practicing" per se. Pleasing the fans, getting more viewers, these sometimes take priority over devoting 100% focus to getting better at the game.
A worthwhile read i recommend to all but i always do find FXOBosses insights to be very insightful and indeed we need people like him at the forfont of this endevour in order so that it can grow and evolve into somthing greater.
IN BOSS WE TRUST
(btw thanks for taking time out of your other pursuits to help contribute as well as provide money as it is only by the input of individuals like you that this will become serious).
liked the bit about code a qualifiers, too many people think that you must suck if you "can't even qualify for code a."
also yeah, I noticed that low NA gm = mid masters on korea after laddering there. i'm only 1550 rated in korea masters. id imagine you would have to be a well known pro to get in korea gm.
Yeah, I suppose the english casters aren't quite as professional yet, and honestly, artosis is quickly becoming one of the most biased casters out there. It's okay to have a favorite that you want to win, but showing it so blatantly on air during the game is just really unprofessional.
Regarding the overall post To be honest I was expecting something more interesting but I found the usual "Koreans look depressed but they are really warm-welcoming people" Believe it or not, that is the average idea most westerns get while in Asian countries such as Korea or Japan.
Regarding the skill-level difference I agree that lots of NA GM would be low masters (or even less) but NA is also the weakest of the "big" servers (KR/EU both are > NA) so it's not really surprising.
Regarding the English casters Personally I think Tastosis is perfectly fine (and absolutely the best) but I realize that everyone's taste is different.
Wolf could easily one of the best if he did not sound so critical so often and if he made less jokes.
The other "main" GOM casters have been average or below average which resulted in me not watching code A while Moletrap and DOA where casting.
Doa had no knowledge of the game and he made it so painful to watch. He would say stuff like "Oh, this is so unusual I have never seen this before" while the P player is about to wall his ramp on the 3rd base on Metalopolis with gates and cannons.
One of the biggest polls here on TL had him as the least-favored caster (Just above Kelly) scoring more than 70% of "average" votes (even Moletrap did better) so I am extremely surprised he is coming back.
In general though, I agree with you that we need more "professionalism" in English casters, too many of them have such a poor understanding of the game (Doa is a big example) that it is really annoying to watch.
Regarding your posts I respect FXO a lot because of what they are doing for esports but there is something I believe makes most of your posts look a little silly.
I have been reading TL for some months now and I noticed in so many of your messages you tend to "show off" how much you spend/pay for stuff you buy and/or want.
Whether it is for food, a flight or anything else it is extremely hilarious/goofy the way you brag about it. Even the post regarding Choya to MLG falls within the same "range"
From a psychological point of view there are several reasons why you do so and while I do not need to stay here to explain all of them to you or to the community I believe your posting-quality would benefit immensely if you stopped doing so.
To be more clear about it: All this "money-talk" from an external point of view makes it look like you need to "compensate" (which it may very well be the case) It is pretty well-known in the esports community that the majority of the players (and people) involved do not have a particularly high income (actually, quite the opposite); so you constantly telling us how much you spent left and right is a subconscious way to "show off" that you are not part of this group of people whose income is low.
As a professional who works in a field completely different from yours, I guarantee that it would be far more impressive if you did not do that. That is something I wanted to tell you for some time now but I never had the chance to address it -mainly because I did not have an account on TL yet-
You believe that English casters have to stop the lame jokes to become professionals yet you fail to see that "showing off" on a board like TL how much money you spend makes people like me smile.
Please keep in mind that my criticism regarding this last issue comes from the respect that I have for FXO and what you guys are trying to do for Esports and not to bash you.
On July 15 2011 17:00 udgnim wrote: this is my opinion
good casters can carry a bad set of games/matches SO FAR and a lot of it has to do with the side banter/jokes that may or may not be related to the actual game taking place.
maintaining a sense of professionalism is important but so is being able to maintain the entertainment value for the viewers. when a game isn't providing enough quality content to keep up a certain degree of entertainment, the source for entertainment tends to have to come from the casters to keep the audience interested and maintaining professionalism isn't always the best course to keep the audience interested.
I have no idea what the Korean audience desires from their casters, but I wouldn't be surprised if caster expectations are different between Korean & western audiences.
I agree with this, good banter is so necessary sometimes. I loved qxc's casting for this reason.
I think Tasteless and Artosis certainly have a good mix of off topic banter and actually talking about the games.
and artosis is especially good at getting legitimately excited watching something unfold
edit: im curious about the korean commentators though, obviously not being able to understand korean means I've never tried to watch them, but I wonder what they talk about x.x
but about the english caster ..... arent you talking about your own team members ? So what's stopping you from telling Wolf, QXC, etc to take it more seriously ?
I noticed this aswell, as much as I like tastosis, the korean commentators seem to be true professionals on the job, even if I don't know the language, I can feel that in a physical way.
Maybe it's because they always, always wear official gsl-branded clothes?
Regarding the overall post To be honest I was expecting something more interesting but I found the usual "Koreans look depressed but they are really warm-welcoming people" Believe it or not, that is the average idea most westerns get while in Asian countries such as Korea or Japan.
Regarding the skill-level difference I agree that lots of NA GM would be low masters (or even less) but NA is also the weakest of the "big" servers (KR/EU both are > NA) so it's not really surprising.
Regarding the English casters Personally I think Tastosis is perfectly fine (and absolutely the best) but I realize that everyone's taste is different.
Wolf could easily one of the best if he did not sound so critical so often and if he made less jokes.
The other "main" GOM casters have been average or below average which resulted in me not watching code A while Moletrap and DOA where casting.
Doa had no knowledge of the game and he made it so painful to watch. He would say stuff like "Oh, this is so unusual I have never seen this before" while the P player is about to wall his ramp on the 3rd base on Metalopolis with gates and cannons.
One of the biggest polls here on TL had him as the least-favored caster (Just above Kelly) scoring more than 70% of "average" votes (even Moletrap did better) so I am extremely surprised he is coming back.
In general though, I agree with you that we need more "professionalism" in English casters, too many of them have such a poor understanding of the game (Doa is a big example) that it is really annoying to watch.
Regarding your posts I respect FXO a lot because of what they are doing for esports but there is something I believe makes most of your posts look a little silly.
I have been reading TL for some months now and I noticed in so many of your messages you tend to "show off" how much you spend/pay for stuff you buy and/or want.
Whether it is for food, a flight or anything else it is extremely hilarious/goofy the way you brag about it. Even the post regarding Choya to MLG falls within the same "range"
From a psychological point of view there are several reasons why you do so and while I do not need to stay here to explain all of them to you or to the community I believe your posting-quality would benefit immensely if you stopped doing so.
To be more clear about it: All this "money-talk" from an external point of view makes it look like you need to "compensate" (which it may very well be the case) It is pretty well-known in the esports community that the majority of the players (and people) involved do not have a particularly high income (actually, quite the opposite); so you constantly telling us how much you spent left and right is a subconscious way to "show off" that you are not part of this group of people whose income is low.
As a professional who works in a field completely different from yours, I guarantee that it would be far more impressive if you did not do that. That is something I wanted to tell you for some time now but I never had the chance to address it -mainly because I did not have an account on TL yet-
You believe that English casters have to stop the lame jokes to become professionals yet you fail to see that "showing off" on a board like TL how much money you spend makes people like me smile.
Please keep in mind that my criticism regarding this last issue comes from the respect that I have for FXO and what you guys are trying to do for Esports and not to bash you.
Keep it up with the great job.
Cheers
Thanks for the post. I knew there was a little something that was disturbing while reading the original post, but I couldn't put my finger on it. (regarding the silliness of some posts)
Though, this does not say that the OP gave some very insightful views, and he receives much respect from it! I really liked the descriptions, thanks a lot for what you did, and thanks a lot for promoting e-sports!
i rearly post im more of a lurker,.. but thanks for the read Boss fxo are a credit to esports, and qxc is my hero, for the fans the read is insightfull! gl today vs fOu and waitng for some big wins in the future!
On July 15 2011 17:41 sunman1g wrote: Regarding the overall post To be honest I was expecting something more interesting but I found the usual "Koreans look depressed but they are really warm-welcoming people" Believe it or not, that is the average idea most westerns get while in Asian countries such as Korea or Japan.
Regarding the skill-level difference I agree that lots of NA GM would be low masters (or even less) but NA is also the weakest of the "big" servers (KR/EU both are > NA) so it's not really surprising.
Regarding the English casters Personally I think Tastosis is perfectly fine (and absolutely the best) but I realize that everyone's taste is different.
Wolf could easily one of the best if he did not sound so critical so often and if he made less jokes.
The other "main" GOM casters have been average or below average which resulted in me not watching code A while Moletrap and DOA where casting.
Doa had no knowledge of the game and he made it so painful to watch. He would say stuff like "Oh, this is so unusual I have never seen this before" while the P player is about to wall his ramp on the 3rd base on Metalopolis with gates and cannons.
One of the biggest polls here on TL had him as the least-favored caster (Just above Kelly) scoring more than 70% of "average" votes (even Moletrap did better) so I am extremely surprised he is coming back.
In general though, I agree with you that we need more "professionalism" in English casters, too many of them have such a poor understanding of the game (Doa is a big example) that it is really annoying to watch.
Regarding your posts I respect FXO a lot because of what they are doing for esports but there is something I believe makes most of your posts look a little silly.
I have been reading TL for some months now and I noticed in so many of your messages you tend to "show off" how much you spend/pay for stuff you buy and/or want.
Whether it is for food, a flight or anything else it is extremely hilarious/goofy the way you brag about it. Even the post regarding Choya to MLG falls within the same "range"
From a psychological point of view there are several reasons why you do so and while I do not need to stay here to explain all of them to you or to the community I believe your posting-quality would benefit immensely if you stopped doing so.
To be more clear about it: All this "money-talk" from an external point of view makes it look like you need to "compensate" (which it may very well be the case) It is pretty well-known in the esports community that the majority of the players (and people) involved do not have a particularly high income (actually, quite the opposite); so you constantly telling us how much you spent left and right is a subconscious way to "show off" that you are not part of this group of people whose income is low.
As a professional who works in a field completely different from yours, I guarantee that it would be far more impressive if you did not do that. That is something I wanted to tell you for some time now but I never had the chance to address it -mainly because I did not have an account on TL yet-
You believe that English casters have to stop the lame jokes to become professionals yet you fail to see that "showing off" on a board like TL how much money you spend makes people like me smile.
Please keep in mind that my criticism regarding this last issue comes from the respect that I have for FXO and what you guys are trying to do for Esports and not to bash you.
Keep it up with the great job.
Cheers
Also, the FXO team logo says "When Money, Makes Money"
On July 15 2011 17:41 sunman1g wrote: Regarding the overall post To be honest I was expecting something more interesting but I found the usual "Koreans look depressed but they are really warm-welcoming people" Believe it or not, that is the average idea most westerns get while in Asian countries such as Korea or Japan.
Regarding the skill-level difference I agree that lots of NA GM would be low masters (or even less) but NA is also the weakest of the "big" servers (KR/EU both are > NA) so it's not really surprising.
Regarding the English casters Personally I think Tastosis is perfectly fine (and absolutely the best) but I realize that everyone's taste is different.
Wolf could easily one of the best if he did not sound so critical so often and if he made less jokes.
The other "main" GOM casters have been average or below average which resulted in me not watching code A while Moletrap and DOA where casting.
Doa had no knowledge of the game and he made it so painful to watch. He would say stuff like "Oh, this is so unusual I have never seen this before" while the P player is about to wall his ramp on the 3rd base on Metalopolis with gates and cannons.
One of the biggest polls here on TL had him as the least-favored caster (Just above Kelly) scoring more than 70% of "average" votes (even Moletrap did better) so I am extremely surprised he is coming back.
In general though, I agree with you that we need more "professionalism" in English casters, too many of them have such a poor understanding of the game (Doa is a big example) that it is really annoying to watch.
Regarding your posts I respect FXO a lot because of what they are doing for esports but there is something I believe makes most of your posts look a little silly.
I have been reading TL for some months now and I noticed in so many of your messages you tend to "show off" how much you spend/pay for stuff you buy and/or want.
Whether it is for food, a flight or anything else it is extremely hilarious/goofy the way you brag about it. Even the post regarding Choya to MLG falls within the same "range"
From a psychological point of view there are several reasons why you do so and while I do not need to stay here to explain all of them to you or to the community I believe your posting-quality would benefit immensely if you stopped doing so.
To be more clear about it: All this "money-talk" from an external point of view makes it look like you need to "compensate" (which it may very well be the case) It is pretty well-known in the esports community that the majority of the players (and people) involved do not have a particularly high income (actually, quite the opposite); so you constantly telling us how much you spent left and right is a subconscious way to "show off" that you are not part of this group of people whose income is low.
As a professional who works in a field completely different from yours, I guarantee that it would be far more impressive if you did not do that. That is something I wanted to tell you for some time now but I never had the chance to address it -mainly because I did not have an account on TL yet-
You believe that English casters have to stop the lame jokes to become professionals yet you fail to see that "showing off" on a board like TL how much money you spend makes people like me smile.
Please keep in mind that my criticism regarding this last issue comes from the respect that I have for FXO and what you guys are trying to do for Esports and not to bash you.
Keep it up with the great job.
Cheers
Also, the FXO team logo says "When Money, Makes Money"
[...] It is an experience to boost expectations, to understand how good you truly are or truly can be, and to understand that sometimes someone is better than you. I almost had a heart attack at the event, and I was just watching (my games didn't last very long TYVM zenex player). But I had alot more pleasure watching players play.[...]
lol poor boss getting pwnt by timing pushes or cheese xD.
Thanks for the insight... the the comments about english commentating seemed.... interesting. Either you were criticizing casters from your own team (Wolf, qxc, Unstable) or Tastosis (lol?) about their jokes... so... yeah. It didn't sound very hostile, but it just seemed strange that you would comment on them laughing at their own jokes in public.
On July 15 2011 18:41 Chicane wrote: Thanks for the insight... the the comments about english commentating seemed.... interesting. Either you were criticizing casters from your own team (Wolf, qxc, Unstable) or Tastosis (lol?) about their jokes... so... yeah. It didn't sound very hostile, but it just seemed strange that you would comment on them laughing at their own jokes in public.
I am criticising my own casters sure, as well as all the others. It seems a trend amongst all casters who have sat in the hot seat.
Great post! Thanks for the insight into the "Korean Experience," really interesting. Would love to be there when Code A qualifiers are taking place, reading that part sorta gave me chills.
On July 15 2011 18:41 Chicane wrote: Thanks for the insight... the the comments about english commentating seemed.... interesting. Either you were criticizing casters from your own team (Wolf, qxc, Unstable) or Tastosis (lol?) about their jokes... so... yeah. It didn't sound very hostile, but it just seemed strange that you would comment on them laughing at their own jokes in public.
I am criticising my own casters sure, as well as all the others. It seems a trend amongst all casters who have sat in the hot seat.
The only reason I watch FXO GSTL games is for the Tastosis jokes and random banter. We already know what the results will be, after all.
Highlight: Watching the world cry at our FXOteam account being in platinum, whilst tgun and the likes are playing players in High masters and grandmasters. Players such as rainbow, slayers_legalmind, nuclearfOu, and of course NEXPuzzle. It showed to me, the world really doesn't know what matters in Starcraft 2. I hope this ads some insight.
I don't understand this part (esp. in bold). Can somebody please rephrase it for me?
Highlight: Watching the world cry at our FXOteam account being in platinum, whilst tgun and the likes are playing players in High masters and grandmasters. Players such as rainbow, slayers_legalmind, nuclearfOu, and of course NEXPuzzle. It showed to me, the world really doesn't know what matters in Starcraft 2. I hope this ads some insight.
I don't understand this part (esp. in bold). Can somebody please rephrase it for me?
I believe he's saying that they are playing those sort of players on ladder but still ranked in platinum due to the ladder lock. Might be incorrect of course and I am just mis understanding it.
Its hard to rank up on Korea, I went from gold (5-0 on placement) to diamond to masters. Where on EU I placed platinum 5-0 on ladder, then got masters after like 15 games or something skipping diamond.
I hope that the korean experience has been beneficial for the players and that they have grown significantly from this. I am sorry to say that it has not been fun for me watching FXO getting trashed in the team league. Hopefully, as your players skill improve, we can actually see some decent games.
Your team outlook is truly incredible. I hope your team house experience goes incredible and your players realize how good they actually have it with an organization like you guys. I would be on a plain tomorrow and drop everything to practice 12 hours a day given the opportunity, but you know... bills. =) GL HF in your future guys and I will always root for you guys! FXO FAIGHTING!
Foreigners get treated very well in Korea there's alot of advantage living as a white guy in Korea. I hate when they treat Westerns extra polite and superior than others which is dumb.
I would agree with what sunman1g posted to an extent, most people probably won't give an honest opinion in this thread as they're intimidated by everyone with a face recognizable outside the forum.
Its fine giving your own opinion, but you shouldn't be saying every foreign caster has a "problem" which needs to be fixed, and that you can be the one to fix it and give them pointers, when its not your field.
You should really drop the wild comparisons between ladders which I've only seen you repeat before, if someone seriously said korean platinums are equaling high-masters on NA it's going to be dismissed as trolling anywhere else. (and for that one nerd raging right now, Destiny is stuck in platinum because of ladder lock)
Also some of what you labelled as Fact: was opinion, like what a true practice schedule is. 12 hours a day is a bad way to disintegrate a tendon.
Thank you for the insight into Korea and your time spent there. I like how half of the post is about the experience there and the other half is all about the starcraft side of it. Reading this made me feel I have a better understanding of all the little things about going over there.
On July 15 2011 20:04 AnalThermometer wrote: I would agree with what sunman1g posted to an extent, most people probably won't give an honest opinion in this thread as they're intimidated by everyone with a face recognizable outside the forum.
Its fine giving your own opinion, but you shouldn't be saying every foreign caster has a "problem" which needs to be fixed, and that you can be the one to fix it and give them pointers, when its not your field.
You should really drop the wild comparisons between ladders which I've only seen you repeat before, if someone seriously said korean platinums are equaling high-masters on NA it's going to be dismissed as trolling anywhere else. (and for that one nerd raging right now, Destiny is stuck in platinum because of ladder lock)
Also some of what you labelled as Fact: was opinion, like what a true practice schedule is. 12 hours a day is a bad way to disintegrate a tendon.
Toodles.
I dont want to argue with you. But it sounds like reality hasn't exactly caught up with you.
Although a rare few foreigners would go to korea and immediately play well. The ladder is what it is. Most of my team will back me up in saying that.
In terms of practice. Most korean teams I spoke to do 12-14 hours a day practice, 6-7 days a week. Thats why they are BETTER. even the guys at the PCbang will do 10 hour sessions.
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change.
Whilst, some of what you have labelled "Fact" was opinion, which you are entitled to. You shouldn't go dismissing the community. Saying that they are afraid to speak their opinion. Its easier to criticise when the public eye is not on you.
On July 15 2011 20:04 AnalThermometer wrote: I would agree with what sunman1g posted to an extent, most people probably won't give an honest opinion in this thread as they're intimidated by everyone with a face recognizable outside the forum.
Its fine giving your own opinion, but you shouldn't be saying every foreign caster has a "problem" which needs to be fixed, and that you can be the one to fix it and give them pointers, when its not your field.
You should really drop the wild comparisons between ladders which I've only seen you repeat before, if someone seriously said korean platinums are equaling high-masters on NA it's going to be dismissed as trolling anywhere else. (and for that one nerd raging right now, Destiny is stuck in platinum because of ladder lock)
Also some of what you labelled as Fact: was opinion, like what a true practice schedule is. 12 hours a day is a bad way to disintegrate a tendon.
Toodles.
I dont want to argue with you. But it sounds like reality hasn't exactly caught up with you.
Although a rare few foreigners would go to korea and immediately play well. The ladder is what it is. Most of my team will back me up in saying that.
In terms of practice. Most korean teams I spoke to do 12-14 hours a day practice, 6-7 days a week. Thats why they are BETTER. even the guys at the PCbang will do 10 hour sessions.
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change.
Whilst, some of what you have labelled "Fact" was opinion, which you are entitled to. You shouldn't go dismissing the community. Saying that they are afraid to speak their opinion. Its easier to criticise when the public eye is not on you.
Sometimes you have to make fans happy because in the end they're what make esports possible.
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
The main problem I have with the English casting is how they talk down to the players. Most casters are guilty of this, but especially Wolf, and most of the time he's not even strategically correct. I can hardly remember a game where he doesn't say how bad a certain player was when he's missing a drop in the main or just doesn't understand exactly what it is the player is doing. I don't mind a player being criticized when he is making blatant mistakes, but I do mind a player being criticized for the simple fact that he lost a battle, or is falling behind in the game when they are competing against some of the best players in the world.
I totally agree. Casters should focus on the positive aspects of people's play and recognize that when someone makes a "blunder" it is because they're 300 apm was dedicated to another location of the map. I hate when a player looses a banshee and the caster is like "OMG he didn't micro it correctly!". The reason he lost the banshee was because he was back at his base macroing. Sometimes you just have to macro and hope that your unit doesnt die. Yes if someone makes a huge strategical or micro error you can mention it, but then get on with the cast.
I remember watching a recent cast by Tastosis where they were constantly pointing out the mistakes of both players. "Oh he should not be attacking here. He should wait to max first. The zergs macro is terrible! (even though he only had 100minerals/100 gas stockpiled??). It gets really annoying and makes the cast depressing.
Overall casters just don't seem to recognize that these pro players are playing at ridiculous speeds, sometimes they don't have time to think out some awesome strategy, or realise that they don't have enough units to attack. It's easy to criticise a players strategy when you are sitting there spectating, with maphacks, and you don't have to worry about keeping up your 300 apm.
SC2 is impossible to play perfectly and I think casters shouldn't be so harsh on the players, especially players who are Code S level...
Theres alot of public drunkeness on any single night and it seems like there is some sort of hidden pain in the country.
That is a very sharp observation and I'm surprised you noticed something like that. cause it's quite true:O
I think "largest amount of artillery in the world pointed at your head every moment" probably has a *lot* to do with it. This is why North Korea is such a huge problem.
(For those not in the know, North Korea's army is a joke and South Korea could roll them in probably 2 weeks. The issue is that NK has pretty much the world's largest artillery force and it could bombard Seoul in about 30 minutes. It's their trump card in the situation. Civilian death toll could pass 100k if they went to war.)
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change
That's such a sad line.
I don't give a rats ass about a big companies image. But if they sponsor e-sports and I have the opportunity to drink either pepsi or cocacola I will drink the one that sponsors starcraft.
But if they start telling how casters should cast, instead of us fans, that's not what we want do we? I do understand you cannot get a sponsor like Coca Cola when you are cursing all day, but please don't let big companies dictate your casting too much, unless you want e-sports to go to the level of prime time tv programs
On July 15 2011 20:04 AnalThermometer wrote: I would agree with what sunman1g posted to an extent, most people probably won't give an honest opinion in this thread as they're intimidated by everyone with a face recognizable outside the forum.
Its fine giving your own opinion, but you shouldn't be saying every foreign caster has a "problem" which needs to be fixed, and that you can be the one to fix it and give them pointers, when its not your field.
You should really drop the wild comparisons between ladders which I've only seen you repeat before, if someone seriously said korean platinums are equaling high-masters on NA it's going to be dismissed as trolling anywhere else. (and for that one nerd raging right now, Destiny is stuck in platinum because of ladder lock)
Also some of what you labelled as Fact: was opinion, like what a true practice schedule is. 12 hours a day is a bad way to disintegrate a tendon.
Toodles.
I dont want to argue with you. But it sounds like reality hasn't exactly caught up with you.
Although a rare few foreigners would go to korea and immediately play well. The ladder is what it is. Most of my team will back me up in saying that.
In terms of practice. Most korean teams I spoke to do 12-14 hours a day practice, 6-7 days a week. Thats why they are BETTER. even the guys at the PCbang will do 10 hour sessions.
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change.
Whilst, some of what you have labelled "Fact" was opinion, which you are entitled to. You shouldn't go dismissing the community. Saying that they are afraid to speak their opinion. Its easier to criticise when the public eye is not on you.
Sometimes you have to make fans happy because in the end they're what make esports possible.
Sometimes you have to please the companies because, in the end, they're what make esports profitable & so economically possible ie. a professional sport.
Edit: there's no use putting opinion against fact. At some point, in order to get big sponsors involved, the larger esports events need to take themselves seriously. Players like Destiny can do their own thing; the GSL english cast, on the other hand, might need to step it up (as much as everyone loves Tastosis).
FXOBoss, you live up to your name and then some. While my viewpoint is different from yours on a couple issues, I however understand why you state what you do I believe they are all valid points (mainly the casters part). I really liked the part of the Korean ladder and difference to NA, ignore the knicker-twisted fanboys that can't accept their server cannot compete with the best
The rest of it was a great read and very insightful into what it's like in Korea. It's great that you took FXO to Korea for as long as you did, I really enjoyed seeing them play (and seeing more qxc is great because he is so boss) and am very excited for what this will do to them in future tournaments.
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
PS. Loved the bit about the flameguns.
I noticed it as well, I had to stifle myself with laughter
On July 15 2011 20:04 AnalThermometer wrote: I would agree with what sunman1g posted to an extent, most people probably won't give an honest opinion in this thread as they're intimidated by everyone with a face recognizable outside the forum.
Its fine giving your own opinion, but you shouldn't be saying every foreign caster has a "problem" which needs to be fixed, and that you can be the one to fix it and give them pointers, when its not your field.
You should really drop the wild comparisons between ladders which I've only seen you repeat before, if someone seriously said korean platinums are equaling high-masters on NA it's going to be dismissed as trolling anywhere else. (and for that one nerd raging right now, Destiny is stuck in platinum because of ladder lock)
Also some of what you labelled as Fact: was opinion, like what a true practice schedule is. 12 hours a day is a bad way to disintegrate a tendon.
Toodles.
I dont want to argue with you. But it sounds like reality hasn't exactly caught up with you.
Although a rare few foreigners would go to korea and immediately play well. The ladder is what it is. Most of my team will back me up in saying that.
In terms of practice. Most korean teams I spoke to do 12-14 hours a day practice, 6-7 days a week. Thats why they are BETTER. even the guys at the PCbang will do 10 hour sessions.
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change.
Whilst, some of what you have labelled "Fact" was opinion, which you are entitled to. You shouldn't go dismissing the community. Saying that they are afraid to speak their opinion. Its easier to criticise when the public eye is not on you.
I see the Ladder stuff come up a lot, but it kind of doesn't mean too much, outside of GM. Since the NA ladder is, what, about 2x, or more, larger than the Korean server, a "Masters" on NA wouldn't necessarily be Masters on a server that's far, far smaller. So the relationships could never be 1-1. This is kind of an aside to discussion, but it's something people miss when talking about the Ladder. The upper-end of the Korean ladder should be a lot harder. And if "the competition level you play against" is a big deal for increasing skill, then NA ladder players would be at a disadvantage.
Oh, and, cool post, the Flameguns do seem like a bad idea, lol.
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
PS. Loved the bit about the flameguns.
Meh, probably because OP's jokes aren't as funny as he thinks to 10% of people :p. But now let's move, because OP is going to criticizing other casters' sense of humor.
FXOBoss is apparently the bearer of truth on good comedy and casting procedure, lol that's a joke. The idea of limiting jokes to good jokes is pretty moronic.
If you want a comparison of casters to another sports team, it's to TNT's NBA team with Ernie, Kenny, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber and now with Shaq. They talk all sorts of shit, talk about black guys, white guys, make comments about how ugly some of the NBA players, etc. They criticize players and teams constantly.
They also win all the Emmy's. You know why? People like that. They're widely regarded as the best in their business. They're basically the Tastosis of their field.
Also, hey guys, casters make mistakes, they get tired, and if you're talking about growing business, accurate sports analysis isn't necessarily what keeps a bigger audiences in other sports. Entertaining ones do. Most people aren't looking for an education, as much as they're looking for entertainment.
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change
That's such a sad line.
I don't give a rats ass about a big companies image. But if they sponsor e-sports and I have the opportunity to drink either pepsi or cocacola I will drink the one that sponsors starcraft.
But if they start telling how casters should cast, instead of us fans, that's not what we want do we? I do understand you cannot get a sponsor like Coca Cola when you are cursing all day, but please don't let big companies dictate your casting too much, unless you want e-sports to go to the level of prime time tv programs
The Marketing Execs most definitely do. Corporate Image is very important and they're very mindful of it. That's just life.
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
PS. Loved the bit about the flameguns.
Meh, probably because OP's jokes aren't as funny as he thinks to 10% of people :p. But now let's move, because OP is going to criticizing other casters' sense of humor.
FXOBoss is apparently the bearer of truth on good comedy and casting procedure, lol that's a joke. The idea of limiting jokes to good jokes is pretty moronic.
If you want a comparison of casters to another sports team, it's to TNT's NBA team with Ernie, Kenny, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber and now with Shaq. They talk all sorts of shit, talk about black guys, white guys, make comments about how ugly some of the NBA players, etc. They criticize players and teams constantly.
They also win all the Emmy's. You know why? People like that. They're widely regarded as the best in their business. They're basically the Tastosis of their field.
Also, hey guys, casters make mistakes, they get tired, and if you're talking about growing business, accurate sports analysis isn't necessarily what keeps a bigger audiences in other sports. Entertaining ones do. Most people aren't looking for an education, as much as they're looking for entertainment.
They also have really highly paid media specialists to help them improve. Don't skip over this fact. And they normally don't have time to tell many jokes, or have to kill downtime like SC2 casters can have to, at times.
I'm really worried about how much damage is going to be caused by promoting up to 14 hours/day practice. After seeing this come up so much, I spoke to a few doctors and nurses (friend's family is all involved in medicine) and they confirmed the very realistic nature of how much damage this can have long-term.
The 8-hour office work day already causes a lot of health problems, primarily hand/wrist/arm related, and that involves much less physical strain than playing a game at that pace for that long.
I am torn about this. I love the competition, but I worry about those, especially younger players, who follow this routine.
A few weeks or months playing at that pace won't do permanent damage, but years? There is a definite, obvious risk involved, yet it seems like many players disregard this.
A few risks to consider: Increased risk of diabetes (handling of blood sugar becomes less effective) Vitamin D deficiency from lack of sunlight (which seems stereotypical and humorous, but true) Lowering of HDL cholesterol (this is the good cholesterol, which breaks down fats) Slowed metabolism Various spinal curvatures Wearing down of the carpal (permanently)
Those are just a few of the main issues that I worry about, but there are numerous others.
I've heard some Korean professional teams have mandatory exercise routines, but if they are still sitting for up to 14 hours, using their wrists for the majority of the time, these issues become realistic problems.
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
PS. Loved the bit about the flameguns.
Meh, probably because OP's jokes aren't as funny as he thinks to 10% of people :p. But now let's move, because OP is going to criticizing other casters' sense of humor.
FXOBoss is apparently the bearer of truth on good comedy and casting procedure, lol that's a joke. The idea of limiting jokes to good jokes is pretty moronic.
If you want a comparison of casters to another sports team, it's to TNT's NBA team with Ernie, Kenny, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber and now with Shaq. They talk all sorts of shit, talk about black guys, white guys, make comments about how ugly some of the NBA players, etc. They criticize players and teams constantly.
They also win all the Emmy's. You know why? People like that. They're widely regarded as the best in their business. They're basically the Tastosis of their field.
Also, hey guys, casters make mistakes, they get tired, and if you're talking about growing business, accurate sports analysis isn't necessarily what keeps a bigger audiences in other sports. Entertaining ones do. Most people aren't looking for an education, as much as they're looking for entertainment.
They also have really highly paid media specialists to help them improve. Don't skip over this fact. And they normally don't have time to tell many jokes, or have to kill downtime like SC2 casters can have to, at times.
Uh, do you watch Ernie, Kenny and Barkley? Let's all speak out of our asses now. WTF are you talking about, they do not have people to help them improve. It's not like they all live down in Atlanta, they fly down there one day a week and do the show with 15 minutes of prep. They improv the show, to give it a natural flow.
Also, they kill all sorts of time, the pregame (15 to 1 hour), half time (15min), post game (1hour). They kill lots of time.
Some of the people in this thread are getting way too defensive because of Boss's view of foreign casters. I think after visiting Korea and seeing how they actually view it as a sport rather than a hobby - professionalism is definitely needed to propel SC2 to a true sport in the West.
Before SC2 and gaming in general blows up to be a true spectator sport, we have to prove that we have a community of people who will support it.
As a community our #1 focus should be to support the growth of said community, the introduction and education of new members of the community, and activities/shows/tournaments which encompass the growth of the community. We should not be worrying about the "professional" image of Pro-Gaming because there's not a terrible amount that we can do to help or hurt it. We need to let companies worry about professionalism (MLG, WCG, GSL, etc) while we ourselves remain aware of it. We cannot let the illusion of "professionalism" hinder community growth.
Casters walk a fine line between being entertaining and professional. Djwheat mentions a great point that as a community, our #1 focus should be to support the growth of said community, but at the same time, not hinder it.
Djwheat's thread was posted in November 2010 and his points are valid in that the game was relatively new (4 months!), but it's now July 2011, and SC2 has already blown up worldwide. I think it's safe to say that the community is pretty big as it is (as of July 2011), and if we want SC2 truly as a sport like it is in Korea, then the casters should be less worried about being entertaining by using "dick jokes" (- tastosis during FXO vs fou GSTL a few minutes ago) and more worried about giving insight on the games/players to the viewers who don't have the unique insight like they do. But above all else, I prefer any caster that knows what he/she is talking about.
Like FXOBoss mentioned above for casters, good jokes are good for the growth of the community. Bad jokes are bad. Be more like ESPN/Korean sportscasters, rather than a caster "dumbing it down" to the viewers like we are his/her teenage friends.
EDIT: grammar, etc.
P.S. Boss, I hope the constructive criticism on foreign casters doesn't overshadow how great and informative your post was on your experience over there. It was a great read and I hope you do more posts like these in the future.
I have seen other progamers in GSTL get flamed almost ^^ it seems quite dangerous but I mean you shouldnt try to walk so close to them lol. Anyway interesting read!
I loved this post BoSs, it was informative and really great for people who haven't had such an experience.
The only part I can disagree with is when you brought up the informality of the English casters. I can definitely empathize on where you are coming from but if we were to adopt the 'business-minded' approach to casting, you can easily argue that potential newbies would find it stale and boring. Let's not forget that, sure, the sponsors are what drive tournaments but without the fans this game is nothing. Without the informal and funny types of casters fans might be less engaged with your final product - I argue that that is more important than adopting a business model in the short term (however I definitely can see it becoming way more important come end of HotS expansion or even LotV).
Thanks boss, I always enjoy your posts because they have a certain intelligrnce and undersyanding of the real world and the business side of things. Too many people cant look at your posts rayionally and always pick stupid arguments with you instead of respecting how much we can learn from both your experiences in korea and your experience in the business world.
Thanks for all you are doing and good luck with FXO
On July 15 2011 20:21 FXOpen wrote: I dont want to argue with you. But it sounds like reality hasn't exactly caught up with you.
Although a rare few foreigners would go to korea and immediately play well. The ladder is what it is. Most of my team will back me up in saying that.
In terms of practice. Most korean teams I spoke to do 12-14 hours a day practice, 6-7 days a week. Thats why they are BETTER. even the guys at the PCbang will do 10 hour sessions.
Caster debate could go on for years. I only look at things from a business perspective, what will make money come into the sport of starcraft 2. Not what will make fans happy. Some companies require their image to be maintained at the highest professional level. Some casters do not do that. I simply said 10% of what they do has to change.
Whilst, some of what you have labelled "Fact" was opinion, which you are entitled to. You shouldn't go dismissing the community. Saying that they are afraid to speak their opinion. Its easier to criticise when the public eye is not on you.
Playing well is relative, but I think you'll agree they wouldn't be put in platinum league and its a hyperbolic comparison.
I'm aware of the time Korean teams can put in to SC2, but my point was more about the idea of a true practice session HAS to be a minimum of 8 hours labelled as a fact. We know that training for a long time isn't simply why they are BETTER than us at SC2, this is indicated by certain foreigners playing 10 hours a day and not reaching the same level. Just as icing on the cake 12 hours will have long term effects I'm sure, given time.
Arguing from the business perspective is a tricky one, some businesses have varying opinions and are willing to put up with unproffesional people under circumstances. Sports & eSports casting / playing are basically forms of entertainment and have a lower requirement for professionalism, as professionalism doesn’t always mean entertaining. I’m not sure I’d think of Tastosis as the most professional casters when they’re joking around but they are the most entertaining to me.
I like that you're turning my own argument against me but it doesn't quite stick as I didn't label what I said as fact.
guys, just because everyone (including me) loves tastosis doesn't mean they're infallible and don't have room to improve. i'm sure they realize that themselves, but we have to as well. boss makes some good points that would certainly improve the quality of any cast, so there's no need to give him shit or act overly defensive just because he happens to mention certain casters.
Thanks for the writeup FXOboss. I enjoyed reading about your experience thoroughly. Lol at tgun being a transvestite. Not that I'd want to cut into the FXO players' practice time or other responsibilities but it would be awesome if we could get some words from them about their personal experiences sometime later on.
Theres alot of public drunkeness on any single night and it seems like there is some sort of hidden pain in the country.
That is a very sharp observation and I'm surprised you noticed something like that. cause it's quite true:O
I think "largest amount of artillery in the world pointed at your head every moment" probably has a *lot* to do with it. This is why North Korea is such a huge problem.
(For those not in the know, North Korea's army is a joke and South Korea could roll them in probably 2 weeks. The issue is that NK has pretty much the world's largest artillery force and it could bombard Seoul in about 30 minutes. It's their trump card in the situation. Civilian death toll could pass 100k if they went to war.)
Awesome read. I really like how you laid out the truth of how tough the Korean ladder is. Also how humbling it is to realize how good you truly are in the world of SC2. Whenever someone can bow down and realize their shortcomings and learn how to improve themselves with every fiber of their being, I find it to be an extremely respectful thing.
I kinda agree that the jokes/banter can get a bit much, but not because they lack the funny, but rather because it sometimes comes at the expense of commentating.
To take an example you have the one minte (+) talk about Marines stopping Banshee missiles with their shields (Optimus vs Bomber) and Marines loosing arms and whatnot. It's entertaining to listen to, but I'd rather have them focus more on what's going on, and what the observer is showing us.
I'm not going to put words in Artosis' mouth, but he said on State of the Game that when they are commentating long days and lots of matches, he ends up getting tired and rambling (one of the points he liked about NASL [ie. that he didn't have to commentate that many matches in a row]). I'm sure some TL statistics guy will go back and look at all the GSL vods to find out where the bulk of their jokes are, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the last few matches of each day.
In the end, I'll take Tastetosis with banter over all of the other casters out there, Tastetosis sharp and on the ball though, that's a level above.
Tastosis are the best foreign casters, Yes there is always room to improve, but i dont think these so called "stupid" jokes are the problem. For example when Idra is commentating is awsome, his game knowledge is unbelievable, but his cast is kinda dry.. Its like a really good report but fun is missing. Im paying for every gsl/gstl season to watch the best players in the world and to watch these really funny guys, i hope they never change !
I respect what you are trying to do Boss, but do you think that your team is putting in what they need to in order to compete with the best Korean players?
My experience of living abroad in a similar culture is that when you first arrive you treat it as a holiday, and it takes many months before you settle down and the influence of the local work ethic causes you to work harder as a matter of course.
I also think the fact that TL players are living and training so closely with a korean team helps them become adapted to the mindset and lifestyle of the Korean progamers. With FXO all living together, being exited about living abroad, it's not a good environment for hard work.
I wonder however how long per day at the computer is optimal for SC2 development. If you haven't already I think you should talk to professional musicians and people involved in training athletes. I think there are many techniques which could be transferred over to progaming training.
I agree with you about casting. I wish casters at GSL would sound as though they have actually prepared stuff before starting their cast, instead of just turning up and busking it. Don't you think that Day9 & DJwheat (MLG) and also CatsPajamas & Painuser (IPL) are actually doing quite a professional job? Have you seen these?
Awesome post indeed. Even if FXO got schooled badly in the GSTL, they now definitely aware of the fact, what need to be done, in order to be successful in this game.
I respect what you are trying to do Boss, but do you think that your team is putting in what they need to in order to compete with the best Korean players?
My experience of living abroad in a similar culture is that when you first arrive you treat it as a holiday, and it takes many months before you settle down and the influence of the local work ethic causes you to work harder as a matter of course.
I also think the fact that TL players are living and training so closely with a korean team helps them become adapted to the mindset and lifestyle of the Korean progamers. With FXO all living together, being exited about living abroad, it's not a good environment for hard work.
I wonder however how long per day at the computer is optimal for SC2 development. If you haven't already I think you should talk to professional musicians and people involved in training athletes. I think there are many techniques which could be transferred over to progaming training.
I agree with you about casting. I wish casters at GSL would sound as though they have actually prepared stuff before starting their cast, instead of just turning up and busking it. Don't you think that Day9 & DJwheat (MLG) and also CatsPajamas & Painuser (IPL) are actually doing quite a professional job? Have you seen these?
From what i've seen from FXO's stream (I tune in everytime I can) they are all putting a lot of time and effort in order to improve and be able to compete with the best Koreans. Of course they didn't do so well in the GSTL but that was expected. Give them more time to practice in Korea and I'm sure they can do great. They also have Oz who is used to the "Korean way of training"
Great thread. I wish more team managers, leaders or coaches would blog like this. It gives a whole new insight into that side of the professional world.
Quite a nice write up, nice to see what peoples perspectives are about Korea especially the ladder games being so much harder. Really hope all goes well for FXO, and they go on to big things!!!
Really awesome article. I really enjoyed the no fluff approach to your experience. You made it sound extremely real. Also, congrats on going through with such an intense experience. It takes a lot of guts to go play against the best in the world, but I'm even more sure that is was worth it after reading this.
I'm so excited to see how much everyone on the team has improved!
FXO best of luck and you guys brought smiles to my face whenever i see u guys play. Thanks for taking a big chance and being a such a great team in general
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
PS. Loved the bit about the flameguns.
Meh, probably because OP's jokes aren't as funny as he thinks to 10% of people :p. But now let's move, because OP is going to criticizing other casters' sense of humor.
FXOBoss is apparently the bearer of truth on good comedy and casting procedure, lol that's a joke. The idea of limiting jokes to good jokes is pretty moronic.
If you want a comparison of casters to another sports team, it's to TNT's NBA team with Ernie, Kenny, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber and now with Shaq. They talk all sorts of shit, talk about black guys, white guys, make comments about how ugly some of the NBA players, etc. They criticize players and teams constantly.
They also win all the Emmy's. You know why? People like that. They're widely regarded as the best in their business. They're basically the Tastosis of their field.
Also, hey guys, casters make mistakes, they get tired, and if you're talking about growing business, accurate sports analysis isn't necessarily what keeps a bigger audiences in other sports. Entertaining ones do. Most people aren't looking for an education, as much as they're looking for entertainment.
TNT's team your talking about for NBA aren't casters. They are anchorman and analysts. They run the pre-game and half time shows to fill time while the game isn't going on. The casters are the ones actually talking during the game, Marv Albert, Reggie Miller, etc.
As for them actually being good, I hate their half time shows. I don't watch them. Ever.
In terms of casting though, they actually have a good mix of casters that do a quality job. You'll notice that they specifically design the commentator pairings to create a quality flow of information and analysis. They have people like Reggie Miller, a less experienced speaker, but very experienced player to provide insight into facets of the action that people outside the sport may not know or understand. They back him up with someone to take front stage to plug sponsors, do intro and exits for commercials, send it to the studio or to a court-side reporter for interviews or inside information. They also have people fact checking, providing info on specific players, their recent history or long past that may have relevance. They provide insight into a lot of different things the average person wouldn't be able to know. This is what makes them professional. This is something eSports is currently lacking at times. For all of the love Tastosis gets, I'm actually not a huge fan. They understand what's going on and do a decent job of getting it across or making predictions etc., but I find the joking and tangents to be distracting and obtrusive. When I'm watching a game I want info on the game. I want to know players win percentages in the matchup, their recent history of wins/losses, the expected play both players are known for and how that will play into the matchup. I want to know how they are approaching the game currently, why they are positioning in certain areas, or what their goals may be. I also want some enthusiasm as to the events that are currently playing out, like a crazy battle or great harass. Tastosis get a lot of this right at times, but fall flat completely at others. However, the most important thing to take away from the love for Tastosis is how their commentary complements one another. Artosis is very detail oriented and knowledgeable about the strategies that players will be doing and Tasteless provides a lot of enthusiasm and charisma for every match. It's this balance between the two that works so well, and with proper dedication to preparation and an effort to provide a fully professional experience will greatly increase the quality of the casts. Jokes are fine, they just need to be well prepared and engaging. Random jokes that fall flat just lower the quality of a cast.
And I think that's something every eSports tournament could take away from professional sports casting is learning how to pair the people who will cast the games. It really becomes essential to have someone who can create great emotion in a match while still having someone able to explain the 'who, what, why' of what's going on. I think DJWheat and Day9 are a great combo for this as Wheat is normally very solid in conveying a professional attitude at the big events like MLG, while Day9 is great for strategy analysis (obviously).
If you don't think there is a need for some professionalism look at Day9's dailies, where he prepares specific themes and games that hes going to go over and what topics he wants to touch on before he ever turns on his stream. This creates a seamless episode that speaks to specific points, with examples being played right in front of you, and creates a feel of an actual show, not just a random dumping of information that hopefully makes sense. The same preparation should be used for any tournament; casters should be prepared with background information on all the participants, as well as detailed information for the matches they will be casting.
I will grant you, though, Day9 has a lot of random moments on his dailies where he goes onto tangents. They mostly happen at the beginning or when he slips up, but also there's a distinct difference in his dailies and his casting. He understands the need to present a more professional face when he's casting anything, rolling with what's going on and keeping the viewer immersed in the matches.
Anyway, professionalism is expected from viewers if eSports ever hopes to get bigger and go mainstream. No reason you can't start improving the casting now to prepare for later.
I knew that it would take 8 hours of practice everyday in order to reach up to the potential skill level of the Korean gamers but in North America playing video games for long periods is considered bad and unhealthy. People think this will become the same as any regular sport but sadly no unless they start developing healthy diets for everyone and make them go to the gym for at least 1 hour a day so that they stay fit.
10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount? Why should professional gaming be any different?
BTW, thanks for the insight. Maybe now Westerners will stop trying to cut corners and just put in the work.
Are you implying that Tastosis is bad? I hope not . Seems weird to comment on commentaries like that when players from you own team were doing alot of the code A casting.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Except that, great read.
Although I don't particularly like the code A casting, Tastosis are perfect, gom doesnt need to change them, ever. Plus, a 3rd wouldn't be a good idea imo.
Great read, except for the random criticism for US/Aus/Malaysia that slipped in ("Truth hurts."? lol, huh? ><) -- and, well, adding a third to Tastosis would truly be a shame. Stay positive FXO~
There's a reason nearly all major sports casters have two commentators. As it is, the best casters in our community are Tastosis and Day[9]. QXC was also very, very good and I'd like to see him done some skits with Day[9] himself.
I love your perspective on things though, especially from the Korean ladder which does appear to contribute significantly to those that play on it. A really unique perspective. Thank you
On July 16 2011 00:25 awwnuts07 wrote: 10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount?
It simply wouldn't be possible to train that much every day in a physically demanding sport. Your body wouldn't have enough time to recover, so you would become overtrained and injure yourself.
FXOBoss I ♥ you! I don't know why so many ppl knock what you do, as far as I can see you break your back to make dreams come true for your team and that deserves some respect. I guess when you're new everybody thinks they're smarter/cooler/better than you. I'm glad you have the patience to press on because I think next year all these haters will all be huge FXO fanboys, running around trashing some new team as if their opinion matters for anything.
On July 15 2011 21:49 red4ce wrote: Thanks for the writeup FXOboss. I enjoyed reading about your experience thoroughly. Lol at tgun being a transvestite. Not that I'd want to cut into the FXO players' practice time or other responsibilities but it would be awesome if we could get some words from them about their personal experiences sometime later on.
Personal experiences? As far as I'm aware, I'm not a transvestite.
I don't really think you should be complaining about the Gom Studio on here. I think that if you have any complaints regarding health and safety, you should contact them directly.
I'm glad to read FXOBoss had a positive experience with Korea. A lot of posters on TL were very critical when it was announced FXO would compete in the GSTL, but few people seemed to realize that results were not necessarily the most important aspect of this trip. Korea is still far ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to progaming, and they have a lot to teach us about the subject, especially about player training and team management. Even though FXO has yet to defeat a Korean team, I am sure that living and competing in Korea has taught them many invaluable lessons.
Hopefully FXO can translate these lessons into positive results in the future. Best of luck to the team!
On July 16 2011 00:25 awwnuts07 wrote: 10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount?
It simply wouldn't be possible to train that much every day in a physically demanding sport. Your body wouldn't have enough time to recover, so you would become overtrained and injure yourself.
As it isn't possible for an athlete to train for 10-12 hours a day due to physical limitations, it's also very impractical to train for 10-12 hours a day in Starcraft due to mental limitations. At the end of sessions, you end up not caring whether you win or lose, nor for your own improvement. In the same vein of thought, you stop attempting to build upon your strategy.
On July 16 2011 00:25 awwnuts07 wrote: 10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount?
It simply wouldn't be possible to train that much every day in a physically demanding sport. Your body wouldn't have enough time to recover, so you would become overtrained and injure yourself.
As it isn't possible for an athlete to train for 10-12 hours a day due to physical limitations, it's also very impractical to train for 10-12 hours a day in Starcraft due to mental limitations. At the end of sessions, you end up not caring whether you win or lose, nor for your own improvement. In the same vein of thought, you stop attempting to build upon your strategy.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: The crowd is minimal, this allows players to focus more on playing.
As for the crowd, it is minimal because people just don't come to gsl. It is not intended to keep the crowd minimal. That's the sad fact about korean sc2 scene.
edit: just edited quote part. not used to using quote.
Best of luck to FXO and i really really hope to see you guys again in GSTL. your team is one of the reason why i follow gstl and gsl code a (fxosheth). I support everything you guys have done and hope to see you guys do well in future events. FXO hwaiting
On July 16 2011 00:25 awwnuts07 wrote: 10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount?
It simply wouldn't be possible to train that much every day in a physically demanding sport. Your body wouldn't have enough time to recover, so you would become overtrained and injure yourself.
As it isn't possible for an athlete to train for 10-12 hours a day due to physical limitations, it's also very impractical to train for 10-12 hours a day in Starcraft due to mental limitations. At the end of sessions, you end up not caring whether you win or lose, nor for your own improvement. In the same vein of thought, you stop attempting to build upon your strategy.
BW pros always did that tho.
BW is a very different game, where mechanics come first and strategy came second. SC2 mechanics cap is always going to be lower than the BW mechanics cap, thus it's more important to theorize new strategies. (This is all my opinion, just for anyone who is confused~)
On July 16 2011 00:40 cYaN wrote: I gotta say a third caster is a horrible idea, but a very interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to write it up^^
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Well your going to be flamed for that one, IMO that is one of the things I love about tastosis
Great post and info. FXO is doing great work connecting the Korean and foreigner communities. It was great that the team got to be out there. And great job getting Choya to MLG so he can see the other side of the story.
You guys are clearly willing to spend a little money to build the sport and improve the team. I hope it comes back to you 10-fold in sponsorships.
I don't agree with the caster concerns, but as a businessman, I'm sure you'd agree that it comes down to the casters should be the best for the business of esports -- which is entertainment. If the jokes put people off and make them watch less, they should be avoided. If they bring in eyeballs, then they win. GOM is doing the right thing by rotating and essentially having the casters compete. The ones who draw the best crowds rightfully win, whatever their casting style.
Personally, I though Wolf/QXC was awesome as a caster duo. I like stories and information about the players and the esports scene even more than deeply insightful strategic analysis. I'll take the bad jokes with the good and even a premature "it's over" call by the casters -- it makes an improbable comeback just that much better. One of my favorite games was the "one zergling" game where Choya was bearing down on Nestea, who only had one zergling for defense, and Tastosis wrote Nestea off as totally dead...
It's all good, though. Great job to FXO and continued good luck and success.
Great story really enjoyed hearing more from you guys. Gives a really cool perspective on things, would love for some similar accounts from the liquid guys but I doubt that will happen. And I completely agree on those damn flames!
Thank you for the write-up FxoBoss & thank you for what you are doing to help grow the community. I hope Fxo is going to be even more successful in the future
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
Have you considered that the English commentators are at the mercy of the Korean schedule? At least in GSL, the Korean commentators dictate the timing and flow, and the English commentators must adapt on the fly, which leads to those moments of randomness. Perhaps the commentators are not to blame, but the behind the scene staff. Just throwing ideas out there.
This doesn't make any sense, because the foreign casters act the same way at foreign events. And you act as if the Korean casters dictate the 'schedule.'
Anyways, this thread is a weird place to be discussing this issue to be honest. I don't think Boss intended it to be the focal point of discussion; he just offhandedly made a remark about the professionalism of Korean casters.
For some reason, people can't accept the fact that their favorite foreign casters might not be infallible and perfect. Boss isn't insulting anyone or putting down their work, he is just commenting on how it could be better.
On July 15 2011 21:49 red4ce wrote: Thanks for the writeup FXOboss. I enjoyed reading about your experience thoroughly. Lol at tgun being a transvestite. Not that I'd want to cut into the FXO players' practice time or other responsibilities but it would be awesome if we could get some words from them about their personal experiences sometime later on.
Personal experiences? As far as I'm aware, I'm not a transvestite.
You are not So why was I so aroused when you were on stream Are you sure?
Highlight: ChoyafOu came to BBQ with us after a Code A day where nuclear was playing. We then convinced him that tgun was a transvestite, and he seriously believed us. Score 1 team, 0 tgun
FXOBoSs
How come no one picked up on this? Hilarious.
Great write up, I always enjoy reading reports from Korea :D It's good to know that you guys are enjoying yourself in Korea while still learning to play at a high level. The GSTL is pretty rough, but it's good to know that you guys are improving every day. FXO Fighting!
PS. Loved the bit about the flameguns.
Meh, probably because OP's jokes aren't as funny as he thinks to 10% of people :p. But now let's move, because OP is going to criticizing other casters' sense of humor.
FXOBoss is apparently the bearer of truth on good comedy and casting procedure, lol that's a joke. The idea of limiting jokes to good jokes is pretty moronic.
If you want a comparison of casters to another sports team, it's to TNT's NBA team with Ernie, Kenny, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber and now with Shaq. They talk all sorts of shit, talk about black guys, white guys, make comments about how ugly some of the NBA players, etc. They criticize players and teams constantly.
They also win all the Emmy's. You know why? People like that. They're widely regarded as the best in their business. They're basically the Tastosis of their field.
Also, hey guys, casters make mistakes, they get tired, and if you're talking about growing business, accurate sports analysis isn't necessarily what keeps a bigger audiences in other sports. Entertaining ones do. Most people aren't looking for an education, as much as they're looking for entertainment.
They also have really highly paid media specialists to help them improve. Don't skip over this fact. And they normally don't have time to tell many jokes, or have to kill downtime like SC2 casters can have to, at times.
Uh, do you watch Ernie, Kenny and Barkley? Let's all speak out of our asses now. WTF are you talking about, they do not have people to help them improve. It's not like they all live down in Atlanta, they fly down there one day a week and do the show with 15 minutes of prep. They improv the show, to give it a natural flow.
Also, they kill all sorts of time, the pregame (15 to 1 hour), half time (15min), post game (1hour). They kill lots of time.
Yes, thank you. I don't follow basketball closely but every time I see Charles Barkley on TV I will watch, because I know it will be hilarious and represent a true unfiltered opinion of someone . In American football I do the same thing with Deion Sanders. (For those not familiar with NBA/NFL, they can get away with this because they are star ex-players.)
And yes, Tastosis represent the same thing in Starcraft.
I can appreciate OP's perspective on casters and why he thinks that is what will be good for the growth of the game. But this scenario has happened countless times, and many times if the 'business' people get their way, it is at the expense of the original fanbase (that's us, BTW). As he said himself, fan enjoyment isn't really his primary concern.
Fyi, Caesar salads are awful for you! In fact, an entree caesar salad is actually worse for you (of course, it varies) typically than ordering a cheeseburger! Don't order caesar salads, they're actually one of the biggest "steer clear of"when you're dieting :S.
And it's not "healthy fat" or any of that shit, it's just really flat out bad.
On July 16 2011 01:01 Evangelist wrote: There's a reason nearly all major sports casters have two commentators. As it is, the best casters in our community are Tastosis and Day[9]. QXC was also very, very good and I'd like to see him done some skits with Day[9] himself.
I love your perspective on things though, especially from the Korean ladder which does appear to contribute significantly to those that play on it. A really unique perspective. Thank you
You do realize that the korean casters of GSL is 3 people right? And whats the reason for only having two commentators? Have we ever seen a day9 + tastosis cast? no we havent... so we don't know if its good or bad. Personally, i would love a 3 people cast, it feels like a party.
So all of the Mountain Dew I buy (and that's A LOT of Dew) was helping out FXO and I didn't know about it? Time to buy more
But on a more serious note that was a great write up and as always I'm impressed with FXO as a team and Boss as a person. The dedication you put into the community is huge and hope you get rewarded for it in the future.
Also how will competeing in Korea work (if it will at all) once everyone moves into the house? Will Sheth/Moonglade be living there as well? Does FXO plan on competing in the next season of GSTL?
Excellent read, enjoyed getting a glimpse through the looking glass into the goings on of a foreign team looking to cut it's teeth in Korea. Please keep 'em coming!
On July 15 2011 17:23 skrzmark wrote: The only thing I really dislike about Artosis and Tasteless is, for example from the Super Tournament they give so much praise to a player like Nestea for almost staging a comeback in the games he lost to TOP but they gave no credit to a player to TOP they resorted to saying that TOP cheesed Nestea out of the tournament... They couldn't just say TOP was the better player in the series or he outplayed him? Since Tastosis is so popular their opinion affects how they react to the player, so a lot of people also started bashing TOP.
I may sound like a TOP fanboy with this post... well good because I am one.
This, this ...so much this. A lot of people behave like sheep having no opinions of their own, and choose to blindly parrot whatever tastosis say on the stream, the recent games between Zenio and Hongun being a prime example.
On the other hand, Clide is on of the most overrated players ever to exist on the face of earth, but whenever he does the smallest thing Tastosis start drooling all over him, and a bunch of sheep just blindly spam the LR thread with the same opinion.
At this point I don't know who I am angry at...Tastosis for their biased commentary style, or the sheep who infest the LR thread on every GSL playday.
It would be great if someone could subtitle a Korean casted GSL game just so that we foreigners can see what their casting is like and then decide based on evidence which format we prefer. I personally like Tastosis casting but I do often wonder what their Korean counterparts are saying. The Korean casters seem to have a lot more to say and I wonder if they would be willing to share some of their prepared material with the English casters.
As for Clide... I'm pretty sure Tastosis's comments about Clide are mostly in good humor. Clide is like an ongoing joke from the first open season of GSL. (I don't mean that Clide is a joke player. Its just that Tasteless and Artosis have so much fun saying his name :p)
FXOBoSs you're a boss. I'll buy you a beer next time you're in Australia (and when I'm in Aus too for that matter!) Thanks for the read and I look forward to seeing the growth of FXOpen in the future!
On July 15 2011 17:23 skrzmark wrote: The only thing I really dislike about Artosis and Tasteless is, for example from the Super Tournament they give so much praise to a player like Nestea for almost staging a comeback in the games he lost to TOP but they gave no credit to a player to TOP they resorted to saying that TOP cheesed Nestea out of the tournament... They couldn't just say TOP was the better player in the series or he outplayed him? Since Tastosis is so popular their opinion affects how they react to the player, so a lot of people also started bashing TOP.
I may sound like a TOP fanboy with this post... well good because I am one.
This, this ...so much this. A lot of people behave like sheep having no opinions of their own, and choose to blindly parrot whatever tastosis say on the stream, the recent games between Zenio and Hongun being a prime example.
On the other hand, Clide is on of the most overrated players ever to exist on the face of earth, but whenever he does the smallest thing Tastosis start drooling all over him, and a bunch of sheep just blindly spam the LR thread with the same opinion.
At this point I don't know who I am angry at...Tastosis for their biased commentary style, or the sheep who infest the LR thread on every GSL playday.
The Clide thing is partly a joke if you hadn't realized.
This was a great read. I totaly agree with you about the jokes going on during the GSL. I dont mind when tasteosis pulls off jokes, because they do it at the right time and quickly get back into the game with there amazing analysis. But the new casters, like wolf and what not, theres jokes are badly timed and fucking lame, so I definatly see where your coming from
Very interesting write-up of your experiences, thanks for sharing! Just wondering, do you guys have "friendlies" or practice days with any of the korean teams, or is most of your serious practice internal?
On July 16 2011 05:26 Aeruru wrote: It would be great if someone could subtitle a Korean casted GSL game just so that we foreigners can see what their casting is like and then decide based on evidence which format we prefer. I personally like Tastosis casting but I do often wonder what their Korean counterparts are saying. The Korean casters seem to have a lot more to say and I wonder if they would be willing to share some of their prepared material with the English casters.
As for Clide... I'm pretty sure Tastosis's comments about Clide are mostly in good humor. Clide is like an ongoing joke from the first open season of GSL. (I don't mean that Clide is a joke player. Its just that Tasteless and Artosis have so much fun saying his name :p)
Korean commentators tend to start off the match by letting the viewers in on the recent games each players played, commentating on their mental state/attitude heading into the game, discussing builds players are likely to go for based on their play style and other factors.
Commentators always have high certainty when they discuss builds, and have a very good measure of how the players' builds stack up. They are very good at pointing out key points to watch out for, and they do throw in small jokes from time to time.
I have to say Korean commentators are more knowledgeable then English ones (even Tastosis.. as much as I love those two) and are more professional. They certainly have a huge upper hand when they are discussing player details and their recent history.
The quality of English commentating has been going up steadly, and I hope they can reach higher level.
Great read! Wish you guys the best of luck in Malaysia. Where is the team house? KL? PJ? JB? Penang? There are quite a lot of Malaysian SC2 gamers, and cybercafes are abundant in major cities.
I think much of the problems foreign casters have when filling time comes down to a lack of preparedness. If the casters watched half as much Starcraft as I do, or even just spent more time researching players' histories with one another, making greater efforts to pre-interview players before matches to get their thoughts, etc., then they would have so much to talk about that having to fill time with bad jokes would never be something that arised.
Day9 for example is one of the few casters that knows how to seemlessly integrate his knowledge about the players into his casting. Now that he has no time obligations involved with school, I think we will see him rise far above the rest in terms of professionalism and player knowledge.
It is easily apparent for an astute GSL watcher to glean the fact that Tasteless does not watch much if any SC2 outside of the games he casts. I cannot remember a time where his knowledge about a particular player was impressive, other than the rare times that he and Artosis take the opportunity to speak to a player before a match. Artosis, while clearly watching a large amount of SC2 outside the GSL, does not integrate this into his casting nearly enough, which could be down to a simple memory problem that could be corrected with more time devoted to research before each match.
I think QXC is the best caster I've ever seen. His jokes are funny 95% of the time. His knowledge of the game is unsurpassed. And he is so natural that he puts Wolf at ease and actually makes Wolf a better caster. I am curious what FXOBoss thinks of QXC's casting.
Good read, very interesting stuff, but I do have to rant. I love what FXO has done, really I do, but posts like this one just perpetuate something that really should bother more people.
The idea that you put behind this is basically that unless you go to korea or practice the korean way you will never be good. Of course thats a generalization of the idea, but I'm just sick of this and I expect more from a team that genuinely seems interested in being a top tier competitor. Look at every sport the US competes in. Literally, every sport. Do track/soccer/football/basketball/baseball/swimming/archery/cycling/fencing/volleyball (etc...) athletes that come from U.S.A. sit at home half assing their practice and wax poetically about how if they were in ______ (insert country here) they would be soo much better? No, they absolutely do not. They practice their ass off WHERE THEY ARE, developing new techniques and learning off of like minded individuals. They know they will get better not because of where they are but because they have dedicated themselves to doing so. Starcraft pros continue to basically use where they practice as a crutch to their success. This is simply not the case, but a mere excuse and a pathetic one at that. I do plan to follow this EG team house with great interest. I think if their is any one individual who recognizes this it is incontrol. He knows this house could be just what it takes to push EG's skills into that "korean level." I wasn't a fan of his at first and I still don't think hes the greatest, but I know he WILL work at it and I only hope his enthusiasm and dedication is contagious to those of you who live outside Korea believing the thing that is holding you back is not living there.
And yes, I fully expect no one to agree with me. It's the easiest thing to do.
On July 16 2011 00:25 awwnuts07 wrote: 10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount? Why should professional gaming be any different?
BTW, thanks for the insight. Maybe now Westerners will stop trying to cut corners and just put in the work.
You are kidding me right? Professional athletes practice couple hours a day, five days a week. During the off-season practice usually turns into workouts. No professional athlete would practice for anywhere near 10 hours.
On July 16 2011 08:28 andy3331 wrote: Good read, very interesting stuff, but I do have to rant. I love what FXO has done, really I do, but posts like this one just perpetuate something that really should bother more people.
The idea that you put behind this is basically that unless you go to korea or practice the korean way you will never be good. Of course thats a generalization of the idea, but I'm just sick of this and I expect more from a team that genuinely seems interested in being a top tier competitor. Look at every sport the US competes in. Literally, every sport. Do track/soccer/football/basketball/baseball/swimming/archery/cycling/fencing/volleyball (etc...) athletes that come from U.S.A. sit at home half assing their practice and wax poetically about how if they were in ______ (insert country here) they would be soo much better? No, they absolutely do not. They practice their ass off WHERE THEY ARE, developing new techniques and learning off of like minded individuals. They know they will get better not because of where they are but because they have dedicated themselves to doing so. Starcraft pros continue to basically use where they practice as a crutch to their success. This is simply not the case, but a mere excuse and a pathetic one at that. I do plan to follow this EG team house with great interest. I think if their is any one individual who recognizes this it is incontrol. He knows this house could be just what it takes to push EG's skills into that "korean level." I wasn't a fan of his at first and I still don't think hes the greatest, but I know he WILL work at it and I only hope his enthusiasm and dedication is contagious to those of you who live outside Korea believing the thing that is holding you back is not living there.
And yes, I fully expect no one to agree with me. It's the easiest thing to do.
/rant
i think the point he is trying to make is that, being in korea teaches the "know how", similar to how professional athletes have coaches from other parts of the world depending on the sport. Guus Hiddink lead the korean soccer team in 2002, yuna kim is coached by a canadian (or used to), american speed skating team has a korean coach, etc.
for now korea does have the know how and the foreigners are going to korea to learn that, then they can bring that to wherever they stay and go from there.
Nice read, interesting to see your experiences in Korea. Best of luck to all the guys on the team hopefully they keep improving, and i have to say everytime u make a thread I become a bigger fan of FXO.
LOL, I'm glad FXOBoss has no influence on these things, because who the hell wants Tastosis to change? I get the sense the answer is, not many of us. Unstable was, in my opinion, the most boring co-caster we've ever had. Wolf is pretty good, and his dumb jokes are cute. Tastosis's good jokes and dumb jokes are kinda what make them Tastosis. I have no idea why anybody would want them to change.
On July 16 2011 09:25 suejak wrote: LOL, I'm glad FXOBoss has no influence on these things, because who the hell wants Tastosis to change? I get the sense the answer is, not many of us. Unstable was, in my opinion, the most boring co-caster we've ever had. Wolf is pretty good, and his dumb jokes are cute. Tastosis's good jokes and dumb jokes are kinda what make them Tastosis. I have no idea why anybody would want them to change.
Just because you don't want change doesn't mean others don't. I would love to cut some of the jokes and get all the intel the korean commentators give.
This was pretty good for a "My experiences" blog.. It was crossed "facts", pretty good highlights, and then the killer: serious criticism.
I honestly think that you could of left the criticism out and it would of been a great read, but that part killed it for me, as you were pissing on your casters and qxc, and GOM who did so much for you guys. It just seems you're pretty unappreciative and uncaring towards the effort these people put in, sure it's great you're telling us about the dangers most of us will never encounter.. But why don't you tell GOM about this?
But yeah, if you left the whole GOM criticism part out, then I would of thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the tgun transvestite parts, and the detailed and well de-scripted emotions and feelings in the code a qualifiers.
On July 16 2011 09:36 MonkSEA wrote: This was pretty good for a "My experiences" blog.. It was crossed "facts", pretty good highlights, and then the killer: serious criticism.
I honestly think that you could of left the criticism out and it would of been a great read, but that part killed it for me, as you were pissing on your casters and qxc, and GOM who did so much for you guys. It just seems you're pretty unappreciative and uncaring towards the effort these people put in, sure it's great you're telling us about the dangers most of us will never encounter.. But why don't you tell GOM about this?
But yeah, if you left the whole GOM criticism part out, then I would of thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the tgun transvestite parts, and the detailed and well de-scripted emotions and feelings in the code a qualifiers.
You're pretty much wrong about everything. Stop being so overly sensitive and man up.
FXOpen, I think you're an incredible member of the community and your insight into the scene helps a lot by dispelling many of the inaccurate views on this site. How do you trade during market hours and still run a team?
I agree completely on your thoughts regarding commentary. People love tastosis, and the error my lie more to one than the other, but many of the inappropriate jokes/comments hurt the scene, no matter what the members on TL say. I remember tasteless made hellen keller jokes about artosis's ferret on like 3 different days and this hurts the sponsorship of the game and the league.
in the "real" world (leagues worth billions, not millions), that shit is not acceptable. if a lot people made that joke in public, they'd lose their jobs.
also, all the korean subbed commentaries i've seen never have the "downtime" that tasteless and artosis are always referring to.
I really love day9 as a caster. his daily my get quite offtopic, but he is never offensive by the standards of the "non-gamer" crowd.
On July 16 2011 09:25 suejak wrote: LOL, I'm glad FXOBoss has no influence on these things, because who the hell wants Tastosis to change? I get the sense the answer is, not many of us. Unstable was, in my opinion, the most boring co-caster we've ever had. Wolf is pretty good, and his dumb jokes are cute. Tastosis's good jokes and dumb jokes are kinda what make them Tastosis. I have no idea why anybody would want them to change.
the jokes really do get annoying for me. jokes here and there is fine, its actually healthy for the viewing but sometimes they just carry it on too long. its a cultural difference(korean netizen wrote a blog saying korean casters present the game while the english caster is more like watching the game with you), there's nothing wrong with it imo(i only prefer one over the other) but you dont see(not never, but rare) this kind of behavior in any professional sport casting.
On July 16 2011 09:25 suejak wrote: LOL, I'm glad FXOBoss has no influence on these things, because who the hell wants Tastosis to change? I get the sense the answer is, not many of us. Unstable was, in my opinion, the most boring co-caster we've ever had. Wolf is pretty good, and his dumb jokes are cute. Tastosis's good jokes and dumb jokes are kinda what make them Tastosis. I have no idea why anybody would want them to change.
Just because you don't want change doesn't mean others don't. I would love to cut some of the jokes and get all the intel the korean commentators give.
Well, I'm all for the intel as well. But I don't want the jokes to go anywhere. I think we can have both.
On July 16 2011 01:01 Evangelist wrote: There's a reason nearly all major sports casters have two commentators. As it is, the best casters in our community are Tastosis and Day[9]. QXC was also very, very good and I'd like to see him done some skits with Day[9] himself.
I love your perspective on things though, especially from the Korean ladder which does appear to contribute significantly to those that play on it. A really unique perspective. Thank you
You do realize that the korean casters of GSL is 3 people right? And whats the reason for only having two commentators? Have we ever seen a day9 + tastosis cast? no we havent... so we don't know if its good or bad. Personally, i would love a 3 people cast, it feels like a party.
Yes, we have seen Day9 & Tastosis cast together at the BlizzCon 2010 StarCraft II Invitational.
On July 16 2011 09:25 suejak wrote: LOL, I'm glad FXOBoss has no influence on these things, because who the hell wants Tastosis to change? I get the sense the answer is, not many of us. Unstable was, in my opinion, the most boring co-caster we've ever had. Wolf is pretty good, and his dumb jokes are cute. Tastosis's good jokes and dumb jokes are kinda what make them Tastosis. I have no idea why anybody would want them to change.
Just because you don't want change doesn't mean others don't. I would love to cut some of the jokes and get all the intel the korean commentators give.
Well, I'm all for the intel as well. But I don't want the jokes to go anywhere. I think we can have both.
All the filler content are jokes. So the jokes will go if the intel is put in. FXOBoss wasn't talking about the small funny ingame jokes that happen now and then. The constant joking that surrounds the games themselves. So if you want to have what the korean commentators give all that joking falls away. You can't have both. Unless you didn't quite understand what he was talking about.
On July 16 2011 09:25 suejak wrote: LOL, I'm glad FXOBoss has no influence on these things, because who the hell wants Tastosis to change? I get the sense the answer is, not many of us. Unstable was, in my opinion, the most boring co-caster we've ever had. Wolf is pretty good, and his dumb jokes are cute. Tastosis's good jokes and dumb jokes are kinda what make them Tastosis. I have no idea why anybody would want them to change.
Just because you don't want change doesn't mean others don't. I would love to cut some of the jokes and get all the intel the korean commentators give.
Well, I'm all for the intel as well. But I don't want the jokes to go anywhere. I think we can have both.
All the filler content are jokes. So the jokes will go if the intel is put in. FXOBoss wasn't talking about the small funny ingame jokes that happen now and then. The constant joking that surrounds the games themselves. So if you want to have what the korean commentators give all that joking falls away. You can't have both. Unless you didn't quite understand what he was talking about.
Man, you're one of those guys, huh? lol, it's a pretty bizarre statement to insist "WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH!"
If what you mean is the stupid filler chat-chat like, "What's your favourite soda pop?" then you should said "stupid filler has to go." If that's what you mean, honestly, I don't care what happens to that. Intel replacing it would be fine. That sounds like a producer's job, not a caster's.
If you mean just the jokes, which is what Boss said (i.e., casters need to quit making dumb jokes -- funny jokes can stay), then there's no reason "intel" has to replace that.
On July 16 2011 08:01 sc2olorin wrote: good post, BoSs
I think much of the problems foreign casters have when filling time comes down to a lack of preparedness. If the casters watched half as much Starcraft as I do, or even just spent more time researching players' histories with one another, making greater efforts to pre-interview players before matches to get their thoughts, etc., then they would have so much to talk about that having to fill time with bad jokes would never be something that arised.
Day9 for example is one of the few casters that knows how to seemlessly integrate his knowledge about the players into his casting. Now that he has no time obligations involved with school, I think we will see him rise far above the rest in terms of professionalism and player knowledge.
It is easily apparent for an astute GSL watcher to glean the fact that Tasteless does not watch much if any SC2 outside of the games he casts. I cannot remember a time where his knowledge about a particular player was impressive, other than the rare times that he and Artosis take the opportunity to speak to a player before a match. Artosis, while clearly watching a large amount of SC2 outside the GSL, does not integrate this into his casting nearly enough, which could be down to a simple memory problem that could be corrected with more time devoted to research before each match.
Day9's insanely ott foreigner bias is far from professional. I can't count the number of Korean vs foreigner rapes I've seen where all he does is praise the foreigner.
Sports commentary isn't a monolith - there is a huge difference between a national broadcast and a regional one. Let's take baseball - ESPN and FOX have general commentators who speak very generally about the game and the league (apart from direct commentary on the play). Regionally, you have people who have been together for years who do 150 broadcasts per year. They try to get people tuned in for every game, so those commentators are much more in-depth and personable (and they have much more time to joke). I watch every game for my baseball and hockey teams, and they make plenty of in-jokes and weird references. (On the radio, they're even more personality-driven.) Tastosis knows they're not hitting a bunch of different demographics with their GSL broadcasts, so their stuff works. If they are the same way if they get on ESPN, then I could see how that would be a problem. But I think they would tweak their style to make their cast more outsider-friendly and still keep their chemistry.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
The main problem I have with the English casting is how they talk down to the players. Most casters are guilty of this, but especially Wolf, and most of the time he's not even strategically correct. I can hardly remember a game where he doesn't say how bad a certain player was when he's missing a drop in the main or just doesn't understand exactly what it is the player is doing. I don't mind a player being criticized when he is making blatant mistakes, but I do mind a player being criticized for the simple fact that he lost a battle, or is falling behind in the game when they are competing against some of the best players in the world.
I agree alot of times before the game has even started he is critisizing the players, calling the game and saying "clide is bad"(round of 32 this season) or something of that nature.
Although tasteosis show bias towards certain players they usually go on facts, like "this player hasnt been performing well in this , this and this or has lost X amount of games out of his past 10" Its not nearly as bad as wolf.
I think wolf is a decent caster, but he could be a whole lot better casting is huge for me, when it was only tasteosis casting i watched every single day of GSL, now i could go either way when its someone else other then tasteosis casting the GSL (although i do love QXC cast so i dont miss those ever) but wolf definitely needs some improvements, i have this problem with all the new casters in GSL though, ill start out liking them (or hating them) and then ill start to notice all the things they are doing wrong or start to get annoyed by some of their tendencies its happened with DOA(hated then started to like more) , Moletrap (especially) , Kelly (hated at first , then started to like then started to notice annoying things) and now Wolf for sure too i thought he was hilarious at first and now i could go either way on watching his casts.
Dont get me wrong though wolf seems like a great guy and outside of casting i would find him hilarious / he would probably be someone i would hang out with but for casting i have certain expectations and they arent met by many casters in the english speaking world yet.
Tasteosis are pretty much the only casters i can say that i dont have any real crisiticm for (i can overlook any of their annoying tendencies)
I used to like Day9 but hes been having serious problems with volume recently he just yells way too much and im constantly having to readjust my volume, also hes gotten really goofy constantly giggling to himself and he wont even say what hes giggling about sometimes, and bragging about immature pranks on progamers at MLG i dunno if Day9 stopped the funny business and adjusted his volume he could easily be my favourite caster , but recently that just isnt the case at all =(.
Djwheat althoug lacks some knowledge has a very proffesional feel to him and is someone i dont have much cristicm for, he just has ALOT of experience with casting.
Love this blogish post. So much insight and knowledge, I am jealous of the players that get to have you as a boSs. Hope FXO can keep on this training regimen so I can actually bubble in their team name in my liquibet with confidence. Hope you guys go far.
I've been always saying this too, but the Korean casters are on a whole new level. As much as I love Tastosis, the professionalism and knowledge of Korean casters is amazing. I haven't watched any Korean sc2 casting, but for broodwar, it's crazy how much the Korean casters know the game. I watched WCG China in Korean and English, and the Korean casters were definitely better.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
You just proved my point
The random banter moments are only happening in foreign events. Koreans dont seem to have those moments.
I love artosis and tasteless, consider them great people, and as my friends. But they do have moments of the 10%.
Unstable is probably the least 'joking' of the casters out there but has other things to fix. I am working on a few things with him as we speak. Wolf has the joke problem. Doa, moletrap, kelly, pretty much every foreign caster really. Basically, my point is, when pitching sc2 to someone who isn't from SC2, they dont care if its tastosis, or even me commentating, the dumb jokes just make it look unprofessional... Hence my view they have to stop.
Isn't that part of how things work in the West though? In sports there's plenty of breaks between plays, intermissions, whatever and the broadcasters will sometimes go off on a tangent or make a joke here and then. There will always be downtime and there's only so much you can say about previous games, the player, their team, whatever. There are some moments I wish Tasteless would cut his story short and start talking about something the observer just scrolled across in-game early on but the rest is enjoyable.
I agree as well. Part of the appeal of Tastosis is that they sometimes make jokes. I feel that it's not necessary do it exactly as the koreans since the west has a different culture. I think there should be a line though about the amount of jokes - I remember a cast between Wolf and QXC where I thought it was a little overboard.
Its true on a communal extent. People love artosis and tasteless cos they are artosis and tasteless. They are gamers, for gamers.
Broader picture if money is to continue streaming into gaming, there has to be some level of professionalism where the sappy jokes are eliminated. As I stated, good jokes, are good. Good commentary is better. But there is no room for 'tasteless' or even 'vulgar' jokes. Its a somewhat bad image, and usually its the bad things people pick up on...
I don't agree partly with this. As Azzur said, it's how things work in the West. Not just with casting, but people in the West are less professional as a general consensus. You proved this when you said that many of the residents of the Korean community (on the streets, etc) seemed very solemn or depressing. However, in the US(?) people on the streets range from wealthy lawyers, to drunk-on-life middle aged women/men. The English cast is just fine imo. Also, in my experience, you never know a joke isn't funny until it's too late^^ just my 2 cents.
I'd be interested in hearing a translation of a korean gsl cast, I find it hard to believe that tastosis is on such a lower level than the korean casters that fxoBoss thinks they should be replaced
I generally like Tastosis, but sometimes it bothers me when they sit back and start blatantly making fun of pro players during the GSL. Saying someone is bad etc. etc. just doesn't jive too well with me.
When do you ever hear commentators from NA calling other NA players bad/terrible during a major tournament?
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Great story ruined by your opinion of it.
Truth hurts.
Where do you live? I live in a small suburban town and stuff like this happens all the time. One time I forgot to pay for my meal at an Arby's and I left the restaurant and then came back in to pay for it. They wanted to give me a free milk shake for doing that.
On July 16 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote: Fyi, Caesar salads are awful for you! In fact, an entree caesar salad is actually worse for you (of course, it varies) typically than ordering a cheeseburger! Don't order caesar salads, they're actually one of the biggest "steer clear of"when you're dieting :S.
And it's not "healthy fat" or any of that shit, it's just really flat out bad.
This man speaks the truth! Salads with italian dressing are much healthier in comparison, fxoboss.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Agreed it should only be Tastosis casting, the FXO crews ( Wolf, Unstable, QXC is pretty good but it's clear you can't be a caster and pro-gamer at the same time) are boring and not particularly knowledgeable.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Agreed it should only be Tastosis casting, the FXO crews ( Wolf, Unstable, QXC is pretty good but it's clear you can't be a caster and pro-gamer at the same time) are boring and not particularly knowledgeable.
You do know that Tastosis can't be the only answer for English casters. You need other couples for the job. Plus, how are you going to get fresh casting blood if you don't let anyone else try? I'm sure we'll upon a casting couple that people may really enjoy. Unstable + QXC anyone?
On July 15 2011 17:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Also, I agree the casters can be better. Tastosis keep premature GG'ing. That's not fun. It just shows a hint of disrespect to the player (for saying that they have lost the game, while the player himself has not yet decided to type GG), and it destroys "hype". A casters job is to analyze/explain the game and make things more interesting, not to tell the player "ok, I think he's going to give up now". Sure, every now and then is OK in some situations, but they do it almost every single game "Expect GG any second now." Like I mean, why would I want to expect that? I want to hope for an epic comeback, y'know? xD
This is actually something I strongly disagree with and one of the main reasons I think Tastosis earns the most respect from their audience other than the fact that they are hilarious and amazing casters overall. I HATE when people try to talk about random scenarios where the player that is clearly dead can come back from some crazy circumstance. Tastosis doesnt treat the viewers like idiots, and they don't waste air time on talking about stuff like that, they fill it with knowledge/entertainment value.
This might be a little OT talking about the casting, but since thats the main point of contention in this blog post, I would just like to say its cool that they have been bringing in new people to fill spots for casting and trying new people out. I hope eventually they will stick with peopel that are good, because some of the people have really been very amateurish. So far I think Wolf by far has been the best new blood to come into the GSL and i hope he stays semi permanent. sure he can work on some stuff, but he is actually very good, if you need proof just check how well he did on those solo casts he did. The rest of the casters I can't say were qualified or enjoyable thus far. QXC has some serious potential!
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Agreed it should only be Tastosis casting, the FXO crews ( Wolf, Unstable, QXC is pretty good but it's clear you can't be a caster and pro-gamer at the same time) are boring and not particularly knowledgeable.
Such a great read, thanks for the insight into the korean scene!
I think in terms of the casting a lot of people aren't looking at the big picture like FXOBoss is. I have tried countless times to get friends and family members interested in watching Starcraft 2 and convince them it's a legitimate sport and form of competition. But I find most of the casts I show them alienate them, and don't foster an environment that creates non-gamer interest. While I love Tastosis with all my heart they are VERY guilty of doing this.
A big part of the problem is constantly calling the viewer base nerds, too many constant geeky references, and making mistakes and self correcting. By automatically assuming everyone who watches your cast is a part of a certain demographic your actually alienating those who aren't. Your saying what they are watching isn't for them and they don't belong because your not tailoring what your conveying to them in any way. This type of banter also makes them appear goofy and unprofessional, enhancing the stereotype that Starcraft and gaming in general can't be a legitimate mainstream sport. A good example is when a caster says "For the noobs out there." While us gamers are desensitized to the word someone who isn't apart of our demographic must be slightly offended. You just just as easily say "For the beginners out there," without taking away from your cast, and inviting those who are new to the game to listen to what your saying, as opposed to talking down to them.
I personally think casting should be factual information, pre-game info, and consistent play-by-play of whats happening. This requires a ton of pre-game preparation and attention. Save the banter, jokes, and bias for the plethora of Starcraft 2 shows that exist, and perhaps incorporate more pre and post game shows for major events for those of us who enjoy it.
As I said, I absolutely adore Tastosis and they are the reason I started watching Starcraft 2 competitively, however; most of their fans (myself included) were already gamers, and Starcraft fans, which is why the appealed to us so strongly, and continue to do so. But our goal is to bring Esports to a wider audience and when you make anything mainstream you have to water it down, especially in the modern market. Were going to have to make sacrifices for this to work.
I can honestly say I get a ton of enjoyment watching Starcraft 1 with korean commentary without even understanding what they were saying. They manage to convey so much emotion and excitement based on whats happening currently in the game, and make the cast ABOUT THE GAME, and not about themselves. I believe this is how you bring Starcraft 2 to a larger audience, by focusing on the gameplay, strategy, and technical requirements. I think foreign casters need to begin gearing towards this style of casting to help Esports grow, and it's popularity in Korean culture is a prime example of how these methods work.
On July 15 2011 17:23 skrzmark wrote: The only thing I really dislike about Artosis and Tasteless is, for example from the Super Tournament they give so much praise to a player like Nestea for almost staging a comeback in the games he lost to TOP but they gave no credit to a player to TOP they resorted to saying that TOP cheesed Nestea out of the tournament... They couldn't just say TOP was the better player in the series or he outplayed him? Since Tastosis is so popular their opinion affects how they react to the player, so a lot of people also started bashing TOP.
I may sound like a TOP fanboy with this post... well good because I am one.
This, this ...so much this. A lot of people behave like sheep having no opinions of their own, and choose to blindly parrot whatever tastosis say on the stream, the recent games between Zenio and Hongun being a prime example.
On the other hand, Clide is on of the most overrated players ever to exist on the face of earth, but whenever he does the smallest thing Tastosis start drooling all over him, and a bunch of sheep just blindly spam the LR thread with the same opinion.
At this point I don't know who I am angry at...Tastosis for their biased commentary style, or the sheep who infest the LR thread on every GSL playday.
I think everybody knows that the Clide thing is just a joke. But I do agree in general though, the opinion of TLers in the LR thread is basically 90% of what Tastosis said.
Tasteless can be a little condescending/disrespectful at times, such as calling the game early (which I like, as it's usually accurate) but then saying things like, "I don't know why X isn't leaving the game...". It's a bugbear of mine that anybody would fault a player for not leaving, unless it's an obvious scenario like 20 ultralisks in your base and you lift your sole Command Center. The player does not have full sight of everything, and may honestly believe he has a chance, e.g. if he can get the other player in a bad position.
That is the only complaint I can think of in regards to Tasteosis. They are respectful of each other but point out mistakes of the other if they are relevant. They correct their own mistakes (take notes, TotalBiscuit and DJWheat!) if they are important. They make few mistakes and they call battles, builds, and engagements accurately, for the most part. Most importantly, they are funny and recognize when they are not funny. The latter is important because it reassures viewers that they are not idiots.
Wolf is okay, but could take some pointers, especially the last one I mentioned above. Unstable is boring. Wolf/Unstable is just bearable due to the quality of the games.
On the point about Tasteosis assuming viewers are players/"nerds", I think the assumption was rock-solid until recently, but they should definitely think about changing it. I find their "nerd-crusher", "nerd baller" jokes hilarious, but non-"gamers" may find them off-putting.
Unfortunately people seem to think that a 10% change in a caster = Me calling them bad... Cmon guys, read the words, dont just auto jump to the "OMG HE IS BASHING TASTELESS AND ARTOSIS HALP!!!".. 10% of the stuff that goes on, is unprofessional.. 10%....
That leaves 9/10 left. If thats insulting then how is one meant to get through life and advance as a person?
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Agreed it should only be Tastosis casting, the FXO crews ( Wolf, Unstable, QXC is pretty good but it's clear you can't be a caster and pro-gamer at the same time) are boring and not particularly knowledgeable.
You do know that Tastosis can't be the only answer for English casters. You need other couples for the job. Plus, how are you going to get fresh casting blood if you don't let anyone else try? I'm sure we'll upon a casting couple that people may really enjoy. Unstable + QXC anyone?
Assuming that casting is a job (I believe the casters are paid as such) than working 5 days a week is by no means uncommon and actually quite normal. Why can't Tastosis cast 5 days a week then? I'm all for new casters but as soon as I find out they are boring or not worth watching I turn off the game and don't watch it.
As mentioned QXC cannot easily be a professional gamer along with being a professional caster that would mean he would essentially have to work 2 full time jobs and is unreasonable to ask. If he wants to do that more power to him but expecting it is silly. As for Unstable he is boring and lacks knowledge when he casts I find myself doing other things because I just get bored by his lack of energy, humor and knowledge. The recent casting changes are actually why I stopped buying the premium tickets starting with this GSL July/GTSL because I won't pay for quality that is below what I am used to.
I don't know the numbers behind GOMs viewers and if the changing of casters is a good business decision than they should pursue it. But if they lose viewers and thus money because they want to try out the latest casting options they may want to rethink their strategies.
I really enjoyed the writeup but I don't really agree with the addition of an extra english commentator. Pairs talk over each other enough as it is, having a 3rd would just be frustrating to listen to XD I also don't find the jokes that bad, if people didnt make bad jokes then qxc and wolf would have never made that muta/raven joke last week. That joke had me cry it was so funny, gonna miss those 2 :/
On July 16 2011 16:50 FXOpen wrote: Unfortunately people seem to think that a 10% change in a caster = Me calling them bad... Cmon guys, read the words, dont just auto jump to the "OMG HE IS BASHING TASTELESS AND ARTOSIS HALP!!!".. 10% of the stuff that goes on, is unprofessional.. 10%....
That leaves 9/10 left. If thats insulting then how is one meant to get through life and advance as a person?
Don't even try and to reason with the nubs. Nice write-up btw.
p.s if the fxo players bm me ingame again i'll fight them all irl. (tgun is ok though, he said sorry)
On July 16 2011 16:50 FXOpen wrote: Unfortunately people seem to think that a 10% change in a caster = Me calling them bad... Cmon guys, read the words, dont just auto jump to the "OMG HE IS BASHING TASTELESS AND ARTOSIS HALP!!!".. 10% of the stuff that goes on, is unprofessional.. 10%....
That leaves 9/10 left. If thats insulting then how is one meant to get through life and advance as a person?
Don't even try and to reason with the nubs. Nice write-up btw.
p.s if the fxo players bm me ingame again i'll fight them all irl. (tgun is ok though, he said sorry)
I think it's a joke that you're dictating what kind of humor and what level of jokes GOM is allowing/should allow in their casts. A lot of people are really enjoying the Tastosis cast because of how they do it.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed.
What? How long have you been in Malaysia? I have received countless gifts during my stay there. Malaysians are some of the most welcoming and friendly people I have come across.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Agreed it should only be Tastosis casting, the FXO crews ( Wolf, Unstable, QXC is pretty good but it's clear you can't be a caster and pro-gamer at the same time) are boring and not particularly knowledgeable.
You do know that Tastosis can't be the only answer for English casters. You need other couples for the job. Plus, how are you going to get fresh casting blood if you don't let anyone else try? I'm sure we'll upon a casting couple that people may really enjoy. Unstable + QXC anyone?
Assuming that casting is a job (I believe the casters are paid as such) than working 5 days a week is by no means uncommon and actually quite normal. Why can't Tastosis cast 5 days a week then? I'm all for new casters but as soon as I find out they are boring or not worth watching I turn off the game and don't watch it.
As mentioned QXC cannot easily be a professional gamer along with being a professional caster that would mean he would essentially have to work 2 full time jobs and is unreasonable to ask. If he wants to do that more power to him but expecting it is silly. As for Unstable he is boring and lacks knowledge when he casts I find myself doing other things because I just get bored by his lack of energy, humor and knowledge. The recent casting changes are actually why I stopped buying the premium tickets starting with this GSL July/GTSL because I won't pay for quality that is below what I am used to.
I don't know the numbers behind GOMs viewers and if the changing of casters is a good business decision than they should pursue it. But if they lose viewers and thus money because they want to try out the latest casting options they may want to rethink their strategies.
I definitely agree with this (or the last two paragraphs at least, since I know nothing about casting as a job).
Its nothing against him, but when I watch casters like Unstable, I feel discouraged to watch the cast because there's no "flavor" in the cast. The reason I like Tastosis is because they feel relatable, and they make me laugh rather than just casting the game with superior knowledge. I sometimes think they need to change minor things (like Tasteless mentioning that people called Artosis a dick), but I think its something that will change over time if ends up being a big enough problem.
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Great story ruined by your opinion of it.
Truth hurts.
Nice read, but there is some truth in what he said considering I've been to both of those places and I've had similar experiences. Then again, it could just be the way I present myself and my open body language. That is another thing though.
I found the bench issue pretty funny and I have to agree with you on the casters. Dan and Nick do it quite often and I don't know why the other casters try to copy them so much because a lot of what Dan and Nick do is hit and miss. My message to the casters is to be yourself. That is what got you there in the first place. Sometimes I think they're trying way too hard to impress people.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
I don't really see how this needs to change. The scheduling is not in the hands of the English casters (as far as I know, also Tasteless often points out on stream that they have to wait for the korean casters to wrap it up), so it feels kind of unwarranted to lay that on them. About the "crappy jokes", I'd say it's just up to what type of humor you prefer. I love Tastosis and their jokes to death, and have no desire to change anything. I think there's plenty of insight already, but the third caster idea is rather intriguing. Loved having three casters at Homestory Cup 3, and I can see it working at GSL.
All in all, a great write-up, but I suggest not stressing the casting issue, since it seems to be just you asking them to change something because you don't like it.
I watch American sports for a few hours every day, then I watch e-sports for a few hours at night. You guys will be craving current Tastosis once SC2 goes mainstream, because most commentary on TV is terribly boring and oftentimes outright wrong. (I rely on Twitter for my commentary - I turn off the sound on most games.) It's incredibly refreshing to hear them be so frank and really show their friendship.
Above isn't really targeted at Boss - I think bad jokes are only bad once they're finished and the professionalism argument is also dead weight. The main concern of most seems to be that SC2 won't be popular in the mainstream because of Tastosis's quirks, and I think it might be popular because of it. Most sports fans hate their commentators, trust me. I feel incredibly lucky with the GSL.
I sure wish people with contentious opinions that aren't based on anything but personal taste would stop presenting their opinions as 'truth' or 'fact'. It's self congratulatory narcissism that taints anything else you purport as fact, regardless of whether it is actually a fact or not.
On July 16 2011 23:54 holyvenom wrote: I watch American sports for a few hours every day, then I watch e-sports for a few hours at night. You guys will be craving current Tastosis once SC2 goes mainstream, because most commentary on TV is terribly boring and oftentimes outright wrong. (I rely on Twitter for my commentary - I turn off the sound on most games.) It's incredibly refreshing to hear them be so frank and really show their friendship.
Above isn't really targeted at Boss - I think bad jokes are only bad once they're finished and the professionalism argument is also dead weight. The main concern of most seems to be that SC2 won't be popular in the mainstream because of Tastosis's quirks, and I think it might be popular because of it. Most sports fans hate their commentators, trust me. I feel incredibly lucky with the GSL.
Sweeping generalization followed by a trust me? Please tell me you did not just do that. I would like to know which sports casters (other than Joe Buck) you speak of. I guess the sports teams I follow should consider themselves lucky.
Being original isn't easy. Especially when it comes to Comedy.
There is nothing original about what Dan and Nick do. Most of the jokes they dish out are references to cult flicks. If that style of humor speaks to you so be it. I'm not the only one who thinks some of their jokes are bad. Dan and Nick even readily admit to some of their bad jokes. At least they're honest about it. In strong doses I find it over-excessive.
The real snag is when other commentators try to copy their style. It doesn't work for everybody.
On July 17 2011 00:11 leakingpear wrote: I sure wish people with contentious opinions that aren't based on anything but personal taste would stop presenting their opinions as 'truth' or 'fact'. It's self congratulatory narcissism that taints anything else you purport as fact, regardless of whether it is actually a fact or not.
This. Was just about to write something similar (although would probably have worded it a bit less... aggressive lol). It's just the opinion of one guy but it's made to sound as though it's a universal fact...
I for one like the "dumb" jokes for the most part, although I definitely see room for improvement. After watching wolf and the various co-casters, I realized that I was relieved to see tastosis come back. They do joke around alot but they mix in alot more facts and analysis and I never get the feeling that something other than the game is in focus for the commentary, as, for example, Wolf and QXC did on a few occasions. I did enjoy their casts but found myself distracted from the game, as if their jokes were more important than what actually went on in the game which sort of bugged me.
Liked most of the write-up though, interesting read. Wish you best of luck and hope that other pro-teams (and their sponsors) will follow your example and be able send their players to korea.
The whole caster topic to me is a matter of foriegn esports still not being anything close to professional. We've got a long way to go. The foreign SC2 scene relies far too heavily on this website and Tastosis.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed.
What? How long have you been in Malaysia? I have received countless gifts during my stay there. Malaysians are some of the most welcoming and friendly people I have come across.
I have an idea, how about players/casters/famous people who don't want to be disturbed wear a red card or similar around their neck?
That way people will know they are preparing for a game/cast and won't be offended when they are shunned. Could also work the other way around, with a green card if they feel they want to meet fans. I don't exactly feel sorry for the famous people, but it sounds like a pratical solution to the problem mentioned in the post. I expect that most sc2 people would be mature and respect such a thing.
FXOpen Australia. July 17 2011 02:20. Posts 782 PM Profile Quote # On July 16 2011 22:49 FlyingDJ wrote: Show nested quote +
What? How long have you been in Malaysia? I have received countless gifts during my stay there. Malaysians are some of the most welcoming and friendly people I have come across.
On July 16 2011 23:54 holyvenom wrote: I watch American sports for a few hours every day, then I watch e-sports for a few hours at night. You guys will be craving current Tastosis once SC2 goes mainstream, because most commentary on TV is terribly boring and oftentimes outright wrong. (I rely on Twitter for my commentary - I turn off the sound on most games.) It's incredibly refreshing to hear them be so frank and really show their friendship.
Above isn't really targeted at Boss - I think bad jokes are only bad once they're finished and the professionalism argument is also dead weight. The main concern of most seems to be that SC2 won't be popular in the mainstream because of Tastosis's quirks, and I think it might be popular because of it. Most sports fans hate their commentators, trust me. I feel incredibly lucky with the GSL.
Sweeping generalization followed by a trust me? Please tell me you did not just do that. I would like to know which sports casters (other than Joe Buck) you speak of. I guess the sports teams I follow should consider themselves lucky.
Being original isn't easy. Especially when it comes to Comedy.
There is nothing original about what Dan and Nick do. Most of the jokes they dish out are references to cult flicks. If that style of humor speaks to you so be it. I'm not the only one who thinks some of their jokes are bad. Dan and Nick even readily admit to some of their bad jokes. At least they're honest about it. In strong doses I find it over-excessive.
The real snag is when other commentators try to copy their style. It doesn't work for everybody.
I can't speak for the NBA, but I can speak with some authority on the MLB and NHL. For baseball, most commentators are rooted in their old ways and don't acknowledge a lot of the burgeoning movements (specifically, sabermetrics) within the baseball community. (Some are terrible for other reasons, like Dibble was, but that's rarer.) Buck is boring, but McCarver and Morgan (if we're talking national guys) are just ignorant. I follow a bunch of beat writers and fans for every team and they consistently mock their regional commentators as well. I guess that's the point - they add their own commentary. Maybe a better generalization would've been that people on Twitter dislike their commentators.
In the NHL, the problems are more rooted in homerism, something Tastosis gets well-deserved criticism for. I know which teams I watch with mute on, including my own. Either way, this isn't the point - commentators shouldn't be lumped into one category. There are all shapes and sizes depending on the medium and market.
I don't know if it's because I watch the GSL live casts at 5am and I'm half asleep...but I laugh like a maniac most the time. Comedy is a major contributing factor to my addiction to watching Starcraft casts and analysis (Day9's shows also send me into fits of laughter that sometimes rival even his own). I can see why it would be important to tighten up on the professionalism if you are trying to draw in either non-gamer spectators or non-gamer money...but I'm a gamer, and I'm totally okay with games being cast by gamers, for gamers.
Nice write up, seems like it's been a great adventure.
I agree to some extent with the casting. Tastosis are great, they're the iconic Sc2 Casters, and banter between commentators/casters happens in all professional sports, so I disagree with it being unprofessional, but it's just a bit too much at times...sometimes it takes them 5-10 minutes into a game for them to actually talk about starcraft, and I'm sitting there waiting for artosis to drop some of that knowledge! But I wouldn't want them to change much though, as they're great
Btw, boss, are you going to allow Qxc to stream again once the team league is finished? I really miss his stream
I think this is one of th better posts on TL and I like how despite you are the head of your team, you don't go and make some big deal of your post like the Fnatic guys (Xeris, and the other guy who wrote those articles dissing Korea out of complete ignorance).
I'm not in complete agreement though with your viewpoint on casting though FXOBoss, given that NBA casters often make some pretty horrid jokes too haha, it comes with the business, but to each their own opinion. I think if only 10% of their content is "bad", it's already a pretty good rate of success compared to some sports commentators that I've watched on TV.
I like the insight you provided on Korea and how the players are doing. Definitely is a tough run to get through Code A and I hope it provides more insight to people who think Code A is some second rate tournament that top European stars "should be able to crush". Also, I like how you touch lightly on how practicing the amount that Koreans do really isn't that easy at all. It really shows some of the ignorant foreigners on this forum that what the Korean progamers do in Korea really isn't a walk in the park.
On July 15 2011 16:42 RedDeckWins wrote: I personally enjoy some of the jokes that Tastosis make, but also realize that 90% of the general population wouldn't get them. Compare this to ESPN, anyone can watch a game on ESPN and the commentators do not make "in" jokes. For E-Sports to become mainstream I think those sort of jokes need to be phased out.
Regarding caster criticism, I think it is needed to make the commentary interesting, but the tone of it needs to be changed a bit. Mistakes are mistakes and they should be pointed out, but the tone of the criticism could be less critical and more didactic.
It's comments like these that make me never want ESPORTS to become close to mainstream.
Tastosis are hilarious and I've never had any trouble enjoying the games with their balance between jokes and game insight.
Starcraft isn't like other sports and other sports shouldn't be an instant comparison.
Tasteless and Artosis are very professional and very funny. And I and many others will tune in whenever they cast. If that holds ESPORTS back from becoming mainstream, I really couldn't care less. And i don't care if that sounds selfish.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
...Talk to Wolf and Unstable? :p JK. Anyways, Tastosis is the most loved commentary duo by the foreigners, nothing needs to change. Sure there's some bad jokes and awkard moments but part of a caster's job is to be able to fill in time with random banter. It happens at MLG (even moreso), Dreamhack, IEM, whatever. Not really something to complain about.
With that aside, nice writeup and glad everyone enjoys/enjoyed it there.
The main problem I have with the English casting is how they talk down to the players. Most casters are guilty of this, but especially Wolf, and most of the time he's not even strategically correct. I can hardly remember a game where he doesn't say how bad a certain player was when he's missing a drop in the main or just doesn't understand exactly what it is the player is doing. I don't mind a player being criticized when he is making blatant mistakes, but I do mind a player being criticized for the simple fact that he lost a battle, or is falling behind in the game when they are competing against some of the best players in the world.
I totally agree. Casters should focus on the positive aspects of people's play and recognize that when someone makes a "blunder" it is because they're 300 apm was dedicated to another location of the map. I hate when a player looses a banshee and the caster is like "OMG he didn't micro it correctly!". The reason he lost the banshee was because he was back at his base macroing. Sometimes you just have to macro and hope that your unit doesnt die. Yes if someone makes a huge strategical or micro error you can mention it, but then get on with the cast.
I remember watching a recent cast by Tastosis where they were constantly pointing out the mistakes of both players. "Oh he should not be attacking here. He should wait to max first. The zergs macro is terrible! (even though he only had 100minerals/100 gas stockpiled??). It gets really annoying and makes the cast depressing.
Overall casters just don't seem to recognize that these pro players are playing at ridiculous speeds, sometimes they don't have time to think out some awesome strategy, or realise that they don't have enough units to attack. It's easy to criticise a players strategy when you are sitting there spectating, with maphacks, and you don't have to worry about keeping up your 300 apm.
SC2 is impossible to play perfectly and I think casters shouldn't be so harsh on the players, especially players who are Code S level...
No. When someone makes a mistake they SHOULD be pointing it out. When someone is floating 5k/2k at 180 food you shouldn't be talking about how great they're playing when they're playing terribly.
Tasteless and Artosis both played BW, they know that mistakes happen because you're focused on something else usually, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a mistake.
I also have to disagree with just about everything said about the casting, making the fans happy is what makes people buy season tickets which is what drives E-sports. Having people enjoy the game is more important than how "professional" outsiders perceive the casting as.
With that being said, it's really cool to see fxo really trying to improve. I wasn't really an FXO fan before, but I'll definitely be rooting for them in future tournaments.
I didn't say anywhere that I want the casting style to change. I said the crappy jokes need to stop. 90% good 10% bad...
Getting rid of the "crappy jokes" is a change.
Why should you be the ultimate on what jokes are crappy and which are not. Let the numbers speak for themselves. Maybe your opinion of what is crappy is skewed?
Maybe it is....Who knows. But I don't look at today, I look for tomorrow. And thats what I base my opinion on, also feedback from potential sponsors is what I am expressing. Which brings it into the "fact" page.
Obviously Tasteless and Artosis are directing towards their audience with all the jokes (hilarious or not).
I know if they wanted to be completely, 100% professional that they would have no problem doing so. But they know that would also not be as entertaining for us. I saw a picture of the casting setup once that had a paper written on it that said "Talk about things other than the game" on it. Don't know if it was written by GOM or Tastosis themselves.
On July 16 2011 23:54 holyvenom wrote: I watch American sports for a few hours every day, then I watch e-sports for a few hours at night. You guys will be craving current Tastosis once SC2 goes mainstream, because most commentary on TV is terribly boring and oftentimes outright wrong. (I rely on Twitter for my commentary - I turn off the sound on most games.) It's incredibly refreshing to hear them be so frank and really show their friendship.
Above isn't really targeted at Boss - I think bad jokes are only bad once they're finished and the professionalism argument is also dead weight. The main concern of most seems to be that SC2 won't be popular in the mainstream because of Tastosis's quirks, and I think it might be popular because of it. Most sports fans hate their commentators, trust me. I feel incredibly lucky with the GSL.
Sweeping generalization followed by a trust me? Please tell me you did not just do that. I would like to know which sports casters (other than Joe Buck) you speak of. I guess the sports teams I follow should consider themselves lucky.
Being original isn't easy. Especially when it comes to Comedy.
There is nothing original about what Dan and Nick do. Most of the jokes they dish out are references to cult flicks. If that style of humor speaks to you so be it. I'm not the only one who thinks some of their jokes are bad. Dan and Nick even readily admit to some of their bad jokes. At least they're honest about it. In strong doses I find it over-excessive.
The real snag is when other commentators try to copy their style. It doesn't work for everybody.
I can't speak for the NBA, but I can speak with some authority on the MLB and NHL. For baseball, most commentators are rooted in their old ways and don't acknowledge a lot of the burgeoning movements (specifically, sabermetrics) within the baseball community. (Some are terrible for other reasons, like Dibble was, but that's rarer.) Buck is boring, but McCarver and Morgan (if we're talking national guys) are just ignorant. I follow a bunch of beat writers and fans for every team and they consistently mock their regional commentators as well. I guess that's the point - they add their own commentary. Maybe a better generalization would've been that people on Twitter dislike their commentators.
In the NHL, the problems are more rooted in homerism, something Tastosis gets well-deserved criticism for. I know which teams I watch with mute on, including my own. Either way, this isn't the point - commentators shouldn't be lumped into one category. There are all shapes and sizes depending on the medium and market.
So the reasons you dislike those commentators aren't for their style, but rather things such as knowledge or homerism, which are not necessarily inherent to professional sports style casting (you even mentioned Tastosis is guilty of the latter.)
I do love Tastosis, but they have a rare synergy that makes what they do work. If you were to talk about every other foreign caster, I can't say the same. The Halo casters at MLG are actually fairly decent and try to go for the sports style casting (though I'm not a fan of the game.) They look like they have proper hygiene, are well dressed and professional looking.
Whenever a friend or roommate comes into my room and an SC2 cast is on, I get flat out embarrassed. Here we are trying to move gaming out of the 'mom's basement' stereotype, but casters are wearing a blazer and a t-shirt under it. So I guess it's pick and choose whether you want mainstream appeal or not, but you can't have your cake and eat it too (unless you're Tastosis.)
My wife doesn't know much about Starcraft, but she loves listening to Tasteless and Artosis comedy... and loves the back stories and features done on the players as well (keep them coming GOM!).
I don't know how much your comment was refering to Tastosis, I think the bigger problem is the other casters trying too hard to be like them instead of finding their own thing.. and not pulling it off. It's just a fact, that some people can pull off certain jokes, while others can't.
Tastosis comedy has often saved the production a lot of times where the Starcraft side of things is really painful to watch.
I don't want it to change... or get too serious, I like it being fun to watch and about more than just Starcraft all the time.
Also.. another thing.. I love the flame guns... maybe they could put like a dedicated path area (down the middle?) where the players are meant to walk.. and then turn left or right at the end to goto the booths.. rather than walk right on top of them.. saw one get knocked over in one of the matches... heh. I definately don't want to see them go though.. as it adds to the whole production and excitement.
Anyways... hope FXO continues to improve, good luck with everything and glad overall the experience was good for you and the players!
I don't agree entirely with your point about Tastosis casting.
Take for example the NBA. Chick Hearn, deceased Lakers play by play caster, is the most famous U.S. sports caster in history. He literally coined every catchphrase that you see today. You can check his wiki page to see them all (there's literally hundreds) and many of them are extremely silly. Some can also be interpreted as juvenile or unprofessional. Yet this worked for the LA Lakers one of the top five sports franchises in the entire world and was accepted by the public.
So joking can work and it obviously is working for Tastosis as the community would attest. But I definitely agree with you Boss about the sexual variety and intentionally awkward performance variety of jokes that they do. You're right that they can cut those out.
Joe Rogan is extremely foul-mouthed in his coverage of UFC and those guys are cranking out sponsor dollars faster than any other sport, so maybe you and I are wrong on this issue. Who really knows?
The problem with the flame guns is that they seem to be low quality ones... They kind of just explode out fire, instead of having a controlled flame. Its not exactly the safest. There is already a path way, but if a flame goes a little bit bigger, then gg.. face burn.
Yeah, I don't have much more to add.. I like to see the flame guns, but I wouldnt want people getting hurt either.. so just something for them to look into really. Just hope the answer isn't to get rid of them.
Not sure where abouts in Aus you are from BoSs, but the only thing I can really relate it to is our 'Territory Day' fire works up here in the NT, where every year a lot of people trying to ban them because of the accidents, caused by mis-use and fireworks that malfunction. Again, don't want to see it go.. but maybe more control on the quality of them.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed.
What? How long have you been in Malaysia? I have received countless gifts during my stay there. Malaysians are some of the most welcoming and friendly people I have come across.
I live in Malaysia.....
I am well aware, that's why I asked how long. I find it strange that you would not have experienced something like this when everyone I know who has lived there for a while, including me, has had this kind of thing happen to him, and why you would say that it "definitely wouldn't happen" there.
Great article!!!!! As I thought, you understand why sc gamers HAVE to go to korea in order to truly get better. I respect you for this, and I wish you good luck in the future!!!! GOGO FXO!!!!!
I would have to say your in a definite minority in not liking Tastosis. Sure not every single one of their jokes are spot on..but with hours and hours of casting who really is spot on EVERY SINGLE JOKE. I mean really nobody is. Aside from that if they mess a joke up they just diss each other for it and it turns funny anyway, I can relate to that because fumbles are a human trait and I for one am human .
Nick and Dan have excellent charisma and chemistry together, you can tell they are straightforward and honest with their casting. They are also knowledgeable about SC2 and have a deep background in competitive RTS's to draw experience from.
Simply put they are some of the most talented casters out there and they manage to pull it off w/out fake enthusiasm and that fact alone makes them rare.
I can understand with how poorly FXO is doing in the GSTL why you would get offended/defensive after their analysis of the games but to be quite frank I have never heard them give undeserved criticism of players.
You probably need to get some thicker skin if your going to be putting yourself out there in the public eye and on stream such as the GSL with the whole worldwide sc community watching. Because trying to take out your frustration on the what most would agree as the best SC2 casters(while hiding it behind some half-assed critique of them) is kind of ridiculous.
I agree that sometimes Tastosis is too much jokes and less information but FXOboss also explaing that the korean casters are 3 guys and have better support from the production..
Amazing write up. Took me awhile but I took the time to read it all. It is very insightful. I have not been to any other country so hearing that they seemed gloomy is interesting. I only know Canada, but the majority of people are happy. Makes me really want to travel somewhere just to experience a different culture.
I like the ladder insight. I always thought to my self that I would be in Platinum (Diamond on NA) in Korea, but apparently I would be in Silver-Gold lol. Thanks for making me feel bad Boss! ;P
I could not agree more with the practice. I always disagreed with people saying that less then 8 hours is best. The more you put into something, the better you will be. This only is not true when it comes to exhaustion. Only after you become exhausted, anything negative happens. There is a reason in NA we work 8 hours a day. It's not enough to exhaust anyone, but enough time to get alot done. Why would the same not work for gaming? Just my opinion. I know when I played Team Fortress almost 8 hours a day, my skill never decreased. It did nothing but good for me.
I'm surprised honestly they still have the flame guns. I have not had the time to watch GOM for a couple months now (Need time to play), and I thought they would have gotten rid of them along time ago. They could just make it so players HAVE to walk around them. Long story short they really need to block it off.
I appraise you for being one of the first to even say anything bad about the Casting Archon, although you said they are great which we all agree with. Just like anything though, they can approve. They have awkward moments, and can be to casual at times. Overall I like them alot more then any other casters, but it would not hurt to be a little more professional.
Last it is cool to hear how intense the Code A really is. We all hear from players that it is hard, and not always the best players get through (DRG, oGsSTC etc.), but you showed how hard it really is. The emotions is interesting. We like to cast Koreans as emotionless (for the most part). Sucks to hear that Code A is so hard. It could really use a change.
This is by far the longest post I have ever made on TL. I thank you for writing this Boss. It was very interesting throughout, and made me want to talk about it my self. I hope someone sees some value out of what I write. Thanks for reading.
I think most of the issues people have with english casting is the fact that they seem to be winging it 90% of the time. Now I've grown used to tastosis so I can appreciate their antics but many of my friends who don't play Starcraft do not understand them.
I may be way off but it seems to me that vast majority of english casters just show up to an event and talk about anything in order to fill up the gaps between games. This is when all the "bad jokes" happen and I agree with FXOBoss. Korean casters are often much more prepared to talk about a map, possible strategies and the players in between the gap and during the game itself.
Can't believe I put off reading this. Well written, and I agree completely about the GSL English casting, especially the bit about adding a third caster to the teams.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
The korean casters. The most prepared, professional, amazing casters out there. They don't talk crap on stream, they talk serious starcraft sport. They are what e-sport should represent, even if they do silly video introductions to players They talk about a players play, they are ex progamers, so they know their shit. I think eventually the western e-sports scene will get english commentators of similar charisma, when the scene starts to get a little older. Kudos to Gisado and the gang.
Thank you! its hard for me to get my voice heard but thank you Boss for speaking your mind.. and whats on my mind! Too many random casters making it to the big scene even though they don't know sh-t about the game. NO! look at the other big sports, copy that recipe god damit, one caster and one expert, at least! I really enjoyd hearing progamers casting the games at Homestory Cup 3.
Agree on the Code A casting, QXC is way to "cool" acting which results with Wolf doing his very best to try and be as "cool", resorting in so much shit talk that I (having the vods alt+tab'd because I have them in the background) have no idea what the hell was going on, and when the brackets came they ignored it and continued their boring stories.
As BoSs said; It's ok to joke around and whatnot but having close to 100% internal jokes or "internet" humour will turn away 90% of the potential crowd. I appritiate some shit talking, it's awesome, but it was mostly shit talk when QXC and Wolf was on.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: However Korea is a very unique place. The people all look somewhat depressed, however when you try to talk to them, they greet you with one of the largest smiles I have ever seen. Theres alot of public drunkeness on any single night and it seems like there is some sort of hidden pain in the country.
On July 15 2011 15:41 FXOpen wrote: However Korea is a very unique place. The people all look somewhat depressed, however when you try to talk to them, they greet you with one of the largest smiles I have ever seen. Theres alot of public drunkeness on any single night and it seems like there is some sort of hidden pain in the country.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Don't tell the community this. I personally think Tastosis is to much into self aggrandizement, unfunny, juvenile and I'm 19 but whatever, I just mute it. QXC and Wolf seem to want to take a page out of that book as well but QXC is cool mofo afaic.
On July 17 2011 18:57 FXOpen wrote: FlyingDJ, i am not going to taint malaysia by telling stories Just its not the most friendly place in the universe :D
The event you described could happen at any place in the world. There are friendly people everywhere and mean people everywhere. I had a very similar grocery store incident happen just last week in the U.S in a major city. It's annoying to hear people perpetuate stereotypes based on a few weeks/months of life in another place. The bottom line is good/nice people live in Korea/Malaysia/USA/ wherever and bad/mean people do to. Part of finding them depends on how you treat others as a person so maybe it isn't a problem with certain countries but rather a problem with your attitude towards them. If you are looking for negative things to say you will see only the negatives.
Highlight: QXC and I went to buy groceries one day at the supermarket. The lady forgot to scan one bottle of milk, and we were like "what about the milk". She then proceeded to scan it in as a gift and give it to us for free. Whilst I assume this came from her wages, she did it with the biggest smile, and a bow. And was trying to communicate in english as best she could. This moment made me feel very warm and welcomed. Its definitely something that wouldnt happen in Australia or the united states. Or malaysia for that matter. I was impressed. FXOBoSs
Great story ruined by your opinion of it.
Truth hurts.
You should visit Canada.
I have visited Canada many times. I got a free beer because some guy believed I rode a Kangaroo to school as a kid. But I don't get your reference. Canadians are friendly people, but no where in my post did I mention canada.
Next time you're in Canada I'LL buy you a beer for convincing that guy to buy you a beer.
...And then I'll buy you a bunch of shots for what you've done for e-sports. Seriously great work!
(And I think the Canada bit was just because we Canadians are just proud of our reputation)
Very good write up. Probably most accurate opinion of any foreigners I've seen(including Tastosis, the things they make up lol).
Also congrats about fou. My mouth has been itching ever since I heard about it. I have kept my word and have not told anyone including my fellow workers, tastosis or even my mom.
I do know that there are lot of haters bitching about FXO's lack of result in GSTL and accusing FXO for taking away a spot from other better foreign teams(Let me make it clear here, FXO did NOT take any spot and held other teams from entering). To me howver, FXO's challange is admirable and a worthy investment. I can well see FXO becoming as good as if not better than any Korean teams.
I look forward to see you again in Korean and FXO hwaiting.
While I appreciate the stories because they make a good read, your opinion on certain things is extraordinarily biased and comes off as you speaking on behalf of the community when most of us don't feel the same thing.
Thanks for the post good read and so nice for FXO to get the opportunity to develop.
It's a shame that the one knock on the commentary completely took the attention away from the rest of the post, because it was a very entertaining read.
Tastosis has done an amazing job. It's clear that they work extremely hard and are very knowledgeable. However now that they have so much more support from other casters than they used to have I would really like to see them develop their casting style to become more sports standard.
I love their quirky jokes and fun (check my sig) but more and more I would like to hear things I didn't already know... Stats, more info on korean results from outside the GSL, more gossip, less umming and ahhing about facts. Maybe they would need assistants to support them in this to really make it work, I think a lot of traditional sports commentators have stat sheets pre prepared for them and people feeding them info live, an invisible support team.
dear FXOBoss. welcome to Malaysia. loved reading your write-up sir. tq for giving us the time to meet u tomorrow @ 1pm. Look forward to our mtg. bun1000.
On July 15 2011 20:53 RANDOMCL wrote: I'm really worried about how much damage is going to be caused by promoting up to 14 hours/day practice. After seeing this come up so much, I spoke to a few doctors and nurses (friend's family is all involved in medicine) and they confirmed the very realistic nature of how much damage this can have long-term.
The 8-hour office work day already causes a lot of health problems, primarily hand/wrist/arm related, and that involves much less physical strain than playing a game at that pace for that long.
I am torn about this. I love the competition, but I worry about those, especially younger players, who follow this routine.
A few weeks or months playing at that pace won't do permanent damage, but years? There is a definite, obvious risk involved, yet it seems like many players disregard this.
A few risks to consider: Increased risk of diabetes (handling of blood sugar becomes less effective) Vitamin D deficiency from lack of sunlight (which seems stereotypical and humorous, but true) Lowering of HDL cholesterol (this is the good cholesterol, which breaks down fats) Slowed metabolism Various spinal curvatures Wearing down of the carpal (permanently)
Those are just a few of the main issues that I worry about, but there are numerous others.
I've heard some Korean professional teams have mandatory exercise routines, but if they are still sitting for up to 14 hours, using their wrists for the majority of the time, these issues become realistic problems.
To be a professional at ANYTHING, you have to put in a LOT of time. I'd say a minimum of 60 hours/week (which would be 10 hours/day on a 6-day/week schedule) in just about any "activity" is the bare minimum to be a real "professional"... whether that's sports, or games, running a business or trading stocks (etc.). Anything less than that and you are simply going to fall behind, and often you will need to invest even more time than that to rise to anywhere near the top.
The key is, if you're going to be a professional, you have to be able to work/train the RIGHT way. That means taking short breaks when you need to, it means using good posture (sitting correctly and not compounding your wrists, for example). It also means maintaining balance in your life (i.e. going to the gym and/or going for a run to keep in decent physical fitness and avoid the metabolism situation you describe, as well as having some semblance of a life beyond the computer screen) because if you aren't healthy it'll eventually start to drag on you and your ability to compete at a "professional" level.
Interesting read, but I wouldn't watch the GSL if it lived up to your ideal. E-sports is like sport, but it isn't sport: I don't think most GSL viewers would appreciate the kind of commentary you purport. Tastostis is certainly the reason I keep watching with all the alternative, international options out there now.
On July 16 2011 00:25 awwnuts07 wrote: 10-12 hours of practice? That sounds about right. Don't professional athletes practice around the same amount? Why should professional gaming be any different?
BTW, thanks for the insight. Maybe now Westerners will stop trying to cut corners and just put in the work.
You are kidding me right? Professional athletes practice couple hours a day, five days a week. During the off-season practice usually turns into workouts. No professional athlete would practice for anywhere near 10 hours.
It's true, athletes simply can not physically practice for 10 hours a day 6-7 days a week because the body just falls apart. Although some will spend that much time studying various aspects of their game even if they're not physically practicing. Maybe a better example would be top tier musicians practicing their instruments for equivalent amounts of time or chess Grandmasters studying their game for equivalent amounts of time.
On July 15 2011 20:53 RANDOMCL wrote: I'm really worried about how much damage is going to be caused by promoting up to 14 hours/day practice. After seeing this come up so much, I spoke to a few doctors and nurses (friend's family is all involved in medicine) and they confirmed the very realistic nature of how much damage this can have long-term.
The 8-hour office work day already causes a lot of health problems, primarily hand/wrist/arm related, and that involves much less physical strain than playing a game at that pace for that long.
I am torn about this. I love the competition, but I worry about those, especially younger players, who follow this routine.
A few weeks or months playing at that pace won't do permanent damage, but years? There is a definite, obvious risk involved, yet it seems like many players disregard this.
A few risks to consider: Increased risk of diabetes (handling of blood sugar becomes less effective) Vitamin D deficiency from lack of sunlight (which seems stereotypical and humorous, but true) Lowering of HDL cholesterol (this is the good cholesterol, which breaks down fats) Slowed metabolism Various spinal curvatures Wearing down of the carpal (permanently)
Those are just a few of the main issues that I worry about, but there are numerous others.
I've heard some Korean professional teams have mandatory exercise routines, but if they are still sitting for up to 14 hours, using their wrists for the majority of the time, these issues become realistic problems.
To be a professional at ANYTHING, you have to put in a LOT of time. I'd say a minimum of 60 hours/week (which would be 10 hours/day on a 6-day/week schedule) in just about any "activity" is the bare minimum to be a real "professional"... whether that's sports, or games, running a business or trading stocks (etc.). Anything less than that and you are simply going to fall behind, and often you will need to invest even more time than that to rise to anywhere near the top.
The key is, if you're going to be a professional, you have to be able to work/train the RIGHT way. That means taking short breaks when you need to, it means using good posture (sitting correctly and not compounding your wrists, for example). It also means maintaining balance in your life (i.e. going to the gym and/or going for a run to keep in decent physical fitness and avoid the metabolism situation you describe, as well as having some semblance of a life beyond the computer screen) because if you aren't healthy it'll eventually start to drag on you and your ability to compete at a "professional" level.
"Professional" only means you get paid, no more no less. If someone can achieve results on 2 hours of practice a day, then so be it. If someone needs more, so be it as well. Guys like qxc and NaDa are too busy with school and other matters to practice like a Korean progamer in sc2. I believe Day9 also dealt with that to some extent in BW as well, yet you cannot deny that they are professionals (and achieving professional results to boot...NaDa as one of the most consistently solid pros in the sc2 scene).
Very good write up. Probably most accurate opinion of any foreigners I've seen(including Tastosis, the things they make up lol).
Also congrats about fou. My mouth has been itching ever since I heard about it. I have kept my word and have not told anyone including my fellow workers, tastosis or even my mom.
I do know that there are lot of haters bitching about FXO's lack of result in GSTL and accusing FXO for taking away a spot from other better foreign teams(Let me make it clear here, FXO did NOT take any spot and held other teams from entering). To me howver, FXO's challange is admirable and a worthy investment. I can well see FXO becoming as good as if not better than any Korean teams.
I look forward to see you again in Korean and FXO hwaiting.
It's not nice to keep secrets from your mom.
But yeah, FXO is doing a lot of good things. I'm excited to see them develop as a team, as well as their individual players.
Thirdly English casting. Although 90% of the time the english cast is done well, there are a bunch of things that need to change. The cast needs to be more scheduled and less random. The crappy jokes need to stop (not the good ones, just the crappy ones). Heres a pointer, if you are laughing mid joke at your own joke, its probably not funny. It also needs to bring more insight into the game, more facts more figures and probably a 3rd person.
Don't tell the community this. I personally think Tastosis is to much into self aggrandizement, unfunny, juvenile and I'm 19 but whatever, I just mute it. QXC and Wolf seem to want to take a page out of that book as well but QXC is cool mofo afaic.
I agree.
During the start of the game, Tastosis usually talk about random things which really annoys me because I much rather hear information, such as map features, players game-style, past experience etc. The Korean casters, Wolf and TorcH and Doa do this quite well (some more than others).
And you know, it occurs to me that the flaunting of wealth is actually really a good thing for FXO to do from a business standpoint - What are they at their core? An investment firm. By showing that they HAVE wealth, that means that they're a SUCCESSFUL investment firm - which draws investors.
Props on the blog. I have learnt alot. I'm going to Korea end of the year so its good to hear culture and others experience. Hoping GSL is on when i go =)
EPT
I think it was TT1 who had an ear miss with one of them during Korea vs the world?) Its only a matter of time before someone gets hurt from them. 
They talk about a players play, they are ex progamers, so they know their shit. I think eventually the western e-sports scene will get english commentators of similar charisma, when the scene starts to get a little older. Kudos to Gisado and the gang.
but thanks for the read Boss fxo are a credit to esports, and qxc is my hero, for the fans the read is insightfull! gl today vs fOu and waitng for some big wins in the future!
So why was I so aroused when you were on stream 
Are you sure?
