EPTI'm not arguing that this is the only difference between BW and SC2, but you have to admit that when a game is pretty obscure to the masses, it's far harder to gather the player pool required for the overall skill level to increase. Can you really say that Korean - foreigner gap would be as huge as it has been in BW if BW was as popular outside of Korea as SC2 is?
The Rhino in the Room - Page 2
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Zhyq
United Kingdom117 Posts
I'm not arguing that this is the only difference between BW and SC2, but you have to admit that when a game is pretty obscure to the masses, it's far harder to gather the player pool required for the overall skill level to increase. Can you really say that Korean - foreigner gap would be as huge as it has been in BW if BW was as popular outside of Korea as SC2 is? | ||
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Sideburn
United States442 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:18 RPR_Tempest wrote: My problem with the elephant article was that RIDICULOUS "The competition is a farce." line. How is it a farce? Even if they were the worst players ever, even if the GSL was full of Bronze leaguers, that doesn't make the competition a farce. It would be a farce if the matches were rigged, but that's the only way. That's because the original elephant piece was a garbage piece of sensationalistic writing that served only to incite and garner views, while not conveying any sort of message. This article is much different in that it is thoughtful and has a point. I am not left thinking "Ok, so?" bravo!! | ||
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UndoneJin
United States438 Posts
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emecee
United States222 Posts
oh my god, alert the authorities. User was warned for this post | ||
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aimless
United States57 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:25 Primadog wrote: This article is terrible. It is terrible because it consists entirely of conjectures and false analogies with no evidence or data to back it up. The central premise: that the skill ceiling is low, completely counters all existing tournament results everywhere. Elephant was bad, but this was infinitely worse. There are plenty of resources available if you know or bother to look to which to back your assertions, but no effort were made. Shame on you. Thanks for the opinion. 1. Explain an example of a false analogy. 2. This article was theoretical in nature; it was never intended to have data (which seems impossible to obtain for this somewhat subjective concept anyway). 3. Counters tournament results? I just offer an opinion why MKP goes from GSL champ* to out of Code S. Or why Fruitdealer has never been heard from again. The results are erratic, whether I try to explain them or not. 4. The Elephant article was not bad, you just had a knee-jerk reaction to it. 5. Again, resources aren't necessary to suggest a subjective argument. You give me a couple statistics I could use to "prove" the relative skill ceilings of BW and SC2 and I will go do that. It seems like an untenable criticism of the article. EDIT: *Second place in 3 tourneys. Close enough. | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
Sure, Koreans are still winning more, but the gap has narrowed. Magically. In a year. 12 years of BW and the foreign scene can't touch Korea, but in 1 year SC2 has a robust competitive group of foreigners? Maybe it's the lack of BW Koreans making the switch, but maybe not. Look I get the article, as well as the point you are making but I could not disagree anymore with this particular point. Agreed, it takes a different kind of player to be truly great at SC2, but that doesn't mean that skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is suddenly gone. You raise a point that the Koreans have 12 years of BW behind them. The truth is so too do most of the foreigners that are achieving success, or at least come from the very competitive WC3 scene. The key point that you are missing is this: Those 12 years are great, but they can only serve as a templet for acquiring the skills to become truly great at a new game. If anything in the past year has shown us, it is that the skill gap is actually widening between Koreans and non-Koreans yet again. When BW came out everyone was at 0, but the Koreans worked and worked and soon became absolute gods at the game. SC2 basically set everyone to 0 again, but once more the Korean practice regimen has shown itself to yield better results and dominance when shown to the foreigner scene. HuK's wins at dreamhack and homestory were not wins for us foreigners, they were wins for the Korean practice regimen. Lastly, i would like to close with this. The game is still young, and unexplored. Match-ups are changing and evolving, and the game becomes harder and more complex with each passing month. Take for example MC vs PuMa in this past weeks NASL, both players were doing things that no ordinary player could ever do. In the Beta days I would have agreed with your point that the better player has a small edge, but because the game is so easy it really doesn't matter. I firmly believe that as the game evolves, superior play styles will emerge and these styles lend them selves to being harder to pull off, raising the skill ceiling. We have already seen many examples of this from players like MC, Sage, PuMa, MMA, and Nestea. In BW your mechanics were the mountain your opponent had to climb to best you. In SC2 it is an even mix of both your mechanics and your brain. | ||
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
As for the main argument of APM making players more consistent, of course you would get a more consistent playfield when its dependant on such a linear aspect of the game. With APM you are either fast at it or you aren't, there is no depth or relativity to APM, the higher it is (without spamming ofcourse), the better, so the best players can rest assured they will remain the best just by exercising their hands. And its precisely because of how linear it is that it needs to only play a moderate part in StarCraft. If you can rely on how fast you press buttons in a real-time strategy then that game has failed in the strategy department. Right now we have a healthy balance between Micro, Macro, Strategy and Execution, we don't need SC2 to be just another APM-heavy (oh sorry, "mechanic" heavy) game like Broodwar. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:33 aimless wrote: Thanks for the opinion. 1. Explain an example of a false analogy. 2. This article was theoretical in nature; it was never intended to have data (which seems impossible to obtain for this somewhat subjective concept anyway). 3. Counters tournament results? I just offer an opinion why MKP goes from GSL champ to out of Code S. Or why Fruitdealer has never been heard from again. The results are erratic, whether I try to explain them or not. 4. The Elephant article was not bad, you just had a knee-jerk reaction to it. 5. Again, resources aren't necessary to suggest a subjective argument. You give me a couple statistics I could use to "prove" the relative skill ceilings of BW and SC2 and I will go do that. It seems like an untenable criticism of the article. I will need to do research on the TLPD Elos to confidently say how terribly off it is. If you're willing to wait, I can have something out in about ten days. The most glaring is the the "macro button" stupidity. By that way of thinking, I can say that BW can be EVEN BETTER if players are required to tap-dance while playing. This is not kneejerk, I study sc2 tournaments' data extensively because I intend bring to sports statistics into starcraft, so my head hurts when people just take one tournament result and make sweeping claims. This is not "theoretical," it's opinionated, it's a sham. Oh ya, MKP never worn a GSL. | ||
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UniversalMind
United States326 Posts
IdrA has complained many of time of the same thing you are speaking of, he believes the person who is mechanically better should win and win often. He has stated that practice in sc2 can in some ways hurt you more then help unlike BW there are a lot of things fundamentally wrong with Sc2 that its possible that not even patches can fix the game and that alot of it is Doomed to be a coin toss and what can I find to abuse until it gets patched HT nerf, Stim nerf, possible colossus nerf, another possible infestor "nerf" or Broodlords ect ect this is just things they have been tweaking but alot of people have complaints about so much more other stuff On paper BW is a better game easily, and on paper sc2 can be seen a a poorly designed game in it current state even a bad game | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:31 UndoneJin wrote: So what? Everyone who likes the SC2 pro scene should just stop watching because the skill level is slightly lower than BW? This is a pointless topic SC2 is not the same game as BW, and anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Yet all the same, SC2 is the future whether BW lives or dies in Korea. Another swing and a miss.... Pitchers are having a field day. He never said don't watch SC2, actually quite the opposite. He is simply trying to explain what people mean when they say the games are different. They have different requirements to excel at. Is that really so hard to understand? | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:25 Primadog wrote: This article is terrible. It is terrible because it consists entirely of conjectures and false analogies with no evidence or data to back it up. The central premise: that the skill ceiling is low, completely counters all existing tournament results everywhere. The one "evidence" you point to, that foreigners are beating koreans (on rare occasions), relies on a false pretext that all koreans necessarily are better than all foreigners. Elephant was bad, but this was infinitely worse. There are plenty of resources available if you know or bother to look to which to back your assertions, but no effort were made. Shame on you. Sorry, it looks to me like you never played Brood War? | ||
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yosisoy
Israel202 Posts
As much as I admire good mechanics and people's abilities to be able to control multiple bases, structures and attack fronts, I personally don't consider that aspect as what I want to be the main criteria that wins games. BW is often compared to chess, yet the game of kings has NOTHING to do with "mechanics". Someone without hands could play chess perfectly well. Final point: BroodWar's design had major flaws that we've gotten used to and now some of us actually except new games to have the same flaws, and focus on the technical sound of the game instead of the strategy/tactics. | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:36 Primadog wrote: I will need to do research on the TLPD Elos to confidently say how terribly off it is. If you're willing to wait, I can have something out in about ten days. The most glaring is the the "macro button" stupidity. By that way of thinking, I can say that BW can be EVEN BETTER if players are required to tap-dance while playing. This is not kneejerk, I studies data extensively because I intend to bring sports statistics into starcraft, so my head hurts when people just take one tournament result and make sweeping claims. Oh ya, MKP never worn a GSL. What kind of data are you using here? | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:39 sAfuRos wrote: Sorry, it looks to me like you never played Brood War? I played sc & bw when it came out like everyone else, but I never followed the scene. I am fully aware that BW features 12 years of strategic development and quite possibly have better "play" than sc2 right now, but this article has serious holes in identifying why, and makes sweeping conjectures that is off the mark. No thought was put into it that was worth reading. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:08 aimless wrote: But what Blizzard has done with StarCraft2 was they pulled that ceiling down a little. This is pretty much the meat of the conversation. However, what we're seeing, gradually, is that there are still things to do with your APM. Marine and blink stalker micro are the two best examples so far (Puzzle's 550 APM blink micro was jaw-dropping), of course, but with two expansions worth of balance and (potentially) mechanics changes coming, as well as a slew of new/different units, the ranks of micro-able units may swell. I don't see how it's a bad thing to make the basic macro functions easier. Yes, it's one less situation where a less skilled player can fuck up, but that means the game is a lot more friendly to a lot more people. That tradeoff is absolutely worthwhile. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:25 Primadog wrote: This article is terrible. It is terrible because it consists entirely of conjectures and false analogies with no evidence or data to back it up. The central premise: that the skill ceiling is low, completely counters all existing tournament results everywhere. The one "evidence" you point to, that foreigners are beating koreans (on rare occasions), relies on a false pretext that all koreans necessarily are better than all foreigners. Elephant was bad, but this was infinitely worse. There are plenty of resources available if you know or bother to look to which to back your assertions, but no effort were made. Shame on you. Agree entirely. If this thread was about ANY other subject on TL, it would be locked and closed, and the OP given a warning for providing 0 content to discuss. You can't really discuss conjecture, there's no base line of facts to work with. Terrible article. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
I study sc2 tournaments' data extensively because I intend bring to sports statistics into starcraft Sorry, linking to them took longer than I expected. | ||
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Vaporak
70 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8324 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:18 425kid wrote: You're right obviously about the macro. I disagree about the micro though. MKP and Polt and MC have proved that insane micro can overcome bo losses. Mkp most notably with the hold against an unscouted proxy 2 gate in his base, or his marine splits against kyrix. But he and polt also do subtle things like targeting collosi with a small groups of marauders mid battle. Polt also with that dropship micro on dual sight where he lifted two full dropships over forcefields against blink stalkers. MC anytime he has sentries. Macro limits out really quickly, but I think the micro ceiling is really high. Agreed, and look at the finals of MLG collumbus! Drops happening EVERYWHERE to hold back a swarming zerg that wants to be aggressive. A poor player cannot do that. | ||
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