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On July 13 2011 15:12 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 14:58 Severus_ wrote:
This thing again i hope it gets locked I disagree with the OP because first you can compere SC2 thats is 1 year old and BW that is 13 years old.2nd saying that the skill level is low yes the game is more easy for casuals and yes there is the AI but think again after 2 years making your scvs and other things that are auto-tuned by the game WILL NOT MAKE you PRO in SC2.The game will be million years ahead and you will have to do so much more because the AI is so much better look at MC vs PuMa final at some battles you see that PuMa has way more things then MC but MC wins the battle then MC goes for a attack with more stuff and loses them why? because players adjusted things and the battle went another way.Now players lets say can adjust 3 or 4 things at 1 battle and react to 3-4 things that the opponent is doing in the battle while macroing behind imagine after some years players start to adjust 13things at one battle and react to 13 other things the game will be at a whole new level so don't tell me how the skill level is low and stop judging stuff that are so new.The other thing is to say top players will switch fast and there is no dominant player is a insult to all those pro gamers who practice day and night to become better ppl like Idra,NesTea,MC,HuK and many others now maybe there isn't 1 who is above all but there is a pack that is above all.Even in BW there were only some types of dominant players who had only 1 special skill that put them above others but their other skills were on top level as well.Only now after 13 years there is this kid called Flash who has all of them and owns the scene like no one ever was.
PP:I'm sry for my grammar and i hope this gets closed fast.
Swing and a miss... Three strikes you're out! Seriously, what the hell is this. You are lucky that I am interested in this topic otherwise I would not wade through this mess. Ok lets go. This thing again i hope it gets locked I disagree with the OP because first you can compere SC2 thats is 1 year old and BW that is 13 years old.2nd saying that the skill level is low yes the game is more easy for casuals and yes there is the AI but think again after 2 years making your scvs and other things that are auto-tuned by the game WILL NOT MAKE you PRO in SC2 How is this even remotely related to what the OP is saying? He is simply saying that there is a different skill set required. The game will be million years ahead and you will have to do so much more because the AI is so much better look at MC vs PuMa final at some battles you see that PuMa has way more things then MC but MC wins the battle then MC goes for a attack with more stuff and loses them why? because players adjusted things and the battle went another way.Now players lets say can adjust 3 or 4 things at 1 battle and react to 3-4 things that the opponent is doing in the battle while macroing behind imagine after some years players start to adjust 13things at one battle and react to 13 other things the game will be at a whole new level so don't tell me how the skill level is low and stop judging stuff that are so newAgain, read the OP. Yes, he says the skill ceiling is lower than BW. A questionable and unprovable statement. I don't see him deriding the skill of SC2 players. On the contrary he is simply pointing out that the games are different. Are you seeing a pattern yet? The other thing is to say top players will switch fast and there is no dominant player is a insult to all those pro gamers who practice day and night to become better ppl like Idra,NesTea,MC,HuK and many others now maybe there isn't 1 who is above all but there is a pack that is above all.Even in BW there were only some types of dominant players who had only 1 special skill that put them above others but their other skills were on top level as well.Only now after 13 years there is this kid called Flash who has all of them and owns the scene like no one ever was.If you truly believe, that the SC2 players you mentioned are dominating the scene in the way that BW "dominators" (I won't use the word) did, then ok you have a point. Otherwise, the OP's point stands, there have not been players that consistantly dominate all opposition for extended periods of time. All in all, calm down a little. The OP didn't get antagonistic, why do you?
Bros! We can yell all we want, but here is an interesting point that we can do nothing about. In BW we see a game that has essentially reached its full evolution. It took 12 fucking years for it to reach such great heights and it shows in every aspect of the gameplay. SC2 on the other hand has been out for a year, it is at the beginning of its evolutionary cycle. I don't understand why people think this is not relevant. We cannot possibly know how the game will change in the coming months and years, only time will tell and there ain't one fucking thing we can do about it.
My point? There is no fucking point to this article. If you didn't understand the difference between the two games, you most likely aren't a frequenter of TL. And discussing relative skill ceilings and problems with a lack of a "bonjwa" is all moot. It hasn't happened because the game is in its infancy and growing at a rapid rate. If the OP was truly only pointing out a different skill set was required it did not need this big of a post.
To paraphrase the words of the immortal Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, "Fuck it dudes, let's go watch some amazing fucking games of starcraft while we can."
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If the past few months are any indication, Koreans are actually WIDENING the gap with foreigners.
Koreans have definitely contributed in raising the skill ceiling up til now, we just have to wait and see if they're able to raise it to levels that will be out of reach to most foreigners. I hope they don't, but if recent tournament results are any indication, foreigners have a ton of catching up to do.
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I didnt watch the finals, only the semi's im based in HK atm so it was around 6 am for me on a work day. If we watched a game together I could explain what I am seeing. That would be better that attacking me for my view. In all honesty you should be happy you can watch SC2 and find it exciting more so than I do. It has so many games going on all the time you have endless entertainment from it. For me I feel like it made the BW scene fall off quite a bit.
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I agree. The mechanics of the game give rise to the fact that it is way too easy for a lesser player to take games off of players who are much better than they are.
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Mmhm, this article would make a lot more sense if sc2 was also 12 years old.
We've got no idea who's going to dominate the game, it's a year old, not even long enough to consider a real reign. only a few months ago we were watching entire tournaments be won with scv all in's, compare to now?
Implying the skill ceiling is lower is also a very nice underhand way of saying the competition is worse, and whilst the OP and his defenders keep ensuring this isn't the case and he's simply pointing out "differences" but it doesn't come across that way at all.. which is very obvious. Typical media style article, say something fucking obvious, but in a controversial way to garner views
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On July 13 2011 15:37 gozima wrote:
If the past few months are any indication, Koreans are actually WIDENING the gap with foreigners.
Koreans have definitely contributed in raising the skill ceiling up til now, we just have to wait and see if they're able to raise it to levels that will be out of reach to most foreigners. I hope they don't, but if recent tournament results are any indication, foreigners have a ton of catching up to do.
100 percent agree with you...
Its not because they are Korean. It is because They Take it 100% Seriously. "Like if i don't win this tournament, My family doesn't eat." seriously... so they practice
and practice, and practice.
while foreign players just practice. of course foreigners wont be able to keep up with that. there is no way to practice less and be better at the game.
analogy: it is not uncommon for a professional basketball player to go into the gym and take 1000 shots a day. each day perfecting his form, learning to control the power and angle of his shot. if you only practice every other day, and you are practicing layups not jump shots... there is more then likely no chance in hell you will beat him in a shoot out.
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People keep on forgetting the game isnt even one year old yet, please give it some time and we'll see how things develop.
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I thought this was already adressed.
SKILL does not awlays mean, APM.
Are people actually saying this? It's like they're discrediting the BW pros. If thats what Skill means, then because Jaedong can press his production buildings without skipping a beat, it makes him better than the next guy? THIS is a game. Whether you win or lose should be based entirely on interactation between you and your enemy, not how well you can maintain MACRO. SC2 is more close to chess than BW has ever been, so whats the problem? Skill cieling? Define skill?
It can also mean using the right strategy, making the right decisions, and tricking your opponent along with MICRO that surpasses the AI (which is more difficult than BW AI fyi).
And its not just that, but I won't elaborate since there's always gunna be these threads due to years of BW brain ingraining and skewed game philosophy.
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Completely disagree.
In both games, the top players have a win rate of about 70%, which shows that the amount of variance and good players losing to worse ones is about equal for both games. Yes, SC2 has easier mechanics, but good players still find ways to beat bad ones and gain an edge.
The reason we aren't seeing any players win tournament after tournament is because of mental toughness. No one in SC2 has it yet. In BW there were apparently players with 65-68% winrates who could win Bo5 after Bo5. There's no one like that in SC2 yet, just good players who drop a lot of close series.
The difference is an illusion.
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On July 13 2011 15:44 Eleaven wrote:
Mmhm, this article would make a lot more sense if sc2 was also 12 years old.
We've got no idea who's going to dominate the game, it's a year old, not even long enough to consider a real reign. only a few months ago we were watching entire tournaments be won with scv all in's, compare to now?
Implying the skill ceiling is lower is also a very nice underhand way of saying the competition is worse, and whilst the OP and his defenders keep ensuring this isn't the case and he's simply pointing out "differences" but it doesn't come across that way at all.. which is very obvious. Typical media style article, say something fucking obvious, but in a controversial way to garner views
with the amount of streams, tournaments, game learning features, ladder matches, clan structures, sponsors available now compared to then your quite frankly dumb to say what you just said. Pretty sure theres a bit of transfer from the BW development both in transferable skills and infrastructure.
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I think that we are looking into this a little too early. Give the game time to develop.
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I am glad I ran into this thread because just before I did I was asking myself "is SC2 really that good?"
I can't help to bring myself to say no, it's not. It's begining to feel as though I am constantly being told it's good over and over so much that I think that it is without thinking about it critically.
I agree with a number of the points in the OP, especially the skill ceiling. One of the easiest ways to portray this is with players' relative ability in SCBW and SC2. In BW IdrA was a very very good player. Perhaps the best American. He practiced up to 12 hours a day when he was playing with CJ Entus and eSTRO. Now ask yourself, what do you honestly think his chances were of ever competing with Jaedong, Flash, or July? Slim to none. Yet here he is in SC2 competing with the very top players and beating them or taking games of them at the very least. How many top SC2 players today worked hard to compete in SCBW but just couldn't do it?
As far as watching SC2, it is perhaps more pleasing on the eyes and a little quicker paced so I can understand why it's enjoyable to watch, but you can't honestly tell me that SC2 requires more micro than BW. Thats just a fact.
The fundamental issues I think exist in SC2 are the macro mechanics are speeding the game up too fast (as well as starting with 6 harvesters rather than 4) yet scouting has not gotten any easier. What ends up happening is two players are playing blindly, and not actually strategizing. Also, with the power of the quickened macro mechanics (chrono, inject, mule) an all-in isn't really an all-in. It's a "build a big army attack then drone up-in".
I think it would be interesting to see how the game would run without automine, starting with 4 harvesters, 12 unit control group limit, and autocast. If that wouldnt break the game then perhaps there could be a "Competetive/Hard Mode" version of SC2 to play.
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On July 13 2011 15:51 Ruthless wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 15:44 Eleaven wrote:
Mmhm, this article would make a lot more sense if sc2 was also 12 years old.
We've got no idea who's going to dominate the game, it's a year old, not even long enough to consider a real reign. only a few months ago we were watching entire tournaments be won with scv all in's, compare to now?
Implying the skill ceiling is lower is also a very nice underhand way of saying the competition is worse, and whilst the OP and his defenders keep ensuring this isn't the case and he's simply pointing out "differences" but it doesn't come across that way at all.. which is very obvious. Typical media style article, say something fucking obvious, but in a controversial way to garner views with the amount of streams, tournaments, game learning features, ladder matches, clan structures, sponsors available now compared to then your quite frankly dumb to say what you just said. Pretty sure theres a bit of transfer from the BW development both in transferable skills and infrastructure.
could you elaborate on this more... I don't see how these factor contribute to him being wrong.
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A bunch of garbage. Sorry, but different games are different, and just as you say there is no proof to your conclusion I can easily say it's the other way around.
Want some food for thought?
Sorry, we're all out, you can't have any because this topic offers none.
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On July 13 2011 14:15 Moa wrote:
Brood war took years to become as competitive as it is, SC2 is becoming more competitive at a fast pace. Even though it isn't as competitive as BW doesn't mean it won't be.
Even though that's true, it's not even close to fair to compare the two in that scenario. SC2 came at the perfect time for eSports. The foreign scene had been longing for a RTS game for years, and companies were ready to throw money into esports again after the crisis.
And when BW came there was barley a thing called eSports. Enough said.
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On July 13 2011 15:57 Soliduok wrote:
I am glad I ran into this thread because just before I did I was asking myself "is SC2 really that good?"
I can't help to bring myself to say no, it's not. It's begining to feel as though I am constantly being told it's good over and over so much that I think that it is without thinking about it critically.
I agree with a number of the points in the OP, especially the skill ceiling. One of the easiest ways to portray this is with players' relative ability in SCBW and SC2. In BW IdrA was a very very good player. Perhaps the best American. He practiced up to 12 hours a day when he was playing with CJ Entus and eSTRO. Now ask yourself, what do you honestly think his chances were of ever competing with Jaedong, Flash, or July? Slim to none. Yet here he is in SC2 competing with the very top players and beating them or taking games of them at the very least. How many top SC2 players today worked hard to compete in SCBW but just couldn't do it?
As far as watching SC2, it is perhaps more pleasing on the eyes and a little quicker paced so I can understand why it's enjoyable to watch, but you can't honestly tell me that SC2 requires more micro than BW. Thats just a fact.
The fundamental issues I think exist in SC2 are the macro mechanics are speeding the game up too fast (as well as starting with 6 harvesters rather than 4) yet scouting has not gotten any easier. What ends up happening is two players are playing blindly, and not actually strategizing. Also, with the power of the quickened macro mechanics (chrono, inject, mule) an all-in isn't really an all-in. It's a "build a big army attack then drone up-in".
I think it would be interesting to see how the game would run without auto mine, starting with 4 harvesters, 12 unit control group limit, and autocast. If that wouldnt break the game then perhaps there could be a "Competetive/Hard Mode" version of SC2 to play.
Because Idra just demolished everyone and won GSLs right?
I Do agree with the "Competitive thing though"... pros should have restriction that make it harder
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So what you're saying is that a game that has had more than a decade to polish its play is somehow immutably superior to a game that has been out for almost a year?
Are you really that ignorant of how much time and how many man hours that game has taken to get to where it is? By your logic we should look at it this way
Starcraft 2 has an infinitely higher average skill level than brood war did after a year. Therefore starcraft 2 is a higher skill game herp derp
doesn't quite work. you should actually think about things before you dedicate so much time an effort to blindly hoping you have a good idea
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you cannot compare sc2's first year to the first year of bw straight up because these factors change the starting point of the players skills, the starting point of the community. The sponsors and tournaments increase the amount of support for full time player development which leads to much faster growth. Even how to improve (transferable skills) were really developed during BW. I think that should be enough if you extend the general thoughts here you can probably understand how all of the things I listed impact either the starting point or the rate of growth for the game's players.
sorry if my posts are not always super fleshed out, usually I use message boards to just express myself, kind of as an outlet. I don't usually see too many posts that put a lot of thought into their responses so I usually dont go out of my way to explain. Even this one only explained my reasoning partially
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I think you make a valid point, but whether sc2 is the type of game that produces bonjwa's is, i think, not the issue. Sc2, and their players are as good as their audience, as popular as their audience. I think the issue is that this..
If, sc2 has too low of a skill ceiling
will the audience drop off as skill converges
if it does then thats a problem. A problem Bw won't have because has one less factor (low skilling ceiling) preventing it from being stale.
There are a lot of reasons to think that sc2 won't go stale, or that the ability to produce bonjwa's doesn't have a demonstrable factor on viewership. But who knows.. for me this is a more relevant line of reasoning.
Doesn't matter if sc2 is easy, unless how easy it is will deter interest. And if its only easier and not "too easy" then this isn't an issue.
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On July 13 2011 15:47 Lokian wrote:
I thought this was already adressed.
SKILL does not awlays mean, APM.
Are people actually saying this? It's like they're discrediting the BW pros. If thats what Skill means, then because Jaedong can press his production buildings without skipping a beat, it makes him better than the next guy? THIS is a game. Whether you win or lose should be based entirely on interactation between you and your enemy, not how well you can maintain MACRO. SC2 is more close to chess than BW has ever been, so whats the problem? Skill cieling? Define skill?
It can also mean using the right strategy, making the right decisions, and tricking your opponent along with MICRO that surpasses the AI (which is more difficult than BW AI fyi).
And its not just that, but I won't elaborate since there's always gunna be these threads due to years of BW brain ingraining and skewed game philosophy.
Excellent. This aspect is often times ignored even by veteran community members.
Sc2 doesn't require 9000 apm. It requires more strategy and tactics than BW.
If someone prefers dexterity and eye hand coordination feats than this, to each his own.
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EPT
