On July 13 2011 14:29 Zhyq wrote: While agreeing with pretty much most of what is written, I have stop for a moment at one of your points and argue. Surely, for 12 years foreigners couldn't touch Korea, but please do consider factors other than just skill level. Mainly, popularity of each game. Competitive SC2 has attracted many sponsors in the foreign scene. Better graphics have also helped in making it more marketable. This led to an increasing number of players with potential to be able to find support (both morally and economically) to sustain their practice routines and get closer to the Korean level.
I'm not arguing that this is the only difference between BW and SC2, but you have to admit that when a game is pretty obscure to the masses, it's far harder to gather the player pool required for the overall skill level to increase. Can you really say that Korean - foreigner gap would be as huge as it has been in BW if BW was as popular outside of Korea as SC2 is?
Well, no. I concede your point. There are a lot of factors that go into the success/failure of the foreign scene and why it is so much stronger in SC2. I probably underestimate the fact that BW became such a phenomenon in Korea and left everyone else lagging behind in ESPORTS infrastructure.
But I still think the "easiness" of the game was a double-edged sword. Imagine if SC2 were just BW with better graphics? I don't think the competitive foreign scene would have gotten all that much bigger. It would just be a new thing for Koreans to compete over. But the "easiness" of the game also takes away those Boxer-iloveoov-Savior type players that come along and show some truly impressive multitasking abilities.
On July 13 2011 14:45 Vaporak wrote: If the only reason the best players can outplay the good players is mechanics then your game has less strategy than the typical fighting game has. That mechanics is the major differentiation between top players, or that it should be, is a premise that I completely reject; both for Broodwar and Starcraft2. If mechanics is the main difference between great and good players then your game is a bad strategy game, period.
this. i don't really care about the point of this article, but saying that brood war is mostly a battle of mechanics means that you don't watch brood war much. bw and sc2 are strategy games.
On July 13 2011 14:08 aimless wrote: Want proof? I can't offer that, but there is one barometer that suggests the skill ceiling is at work: the foreign scene. How many BW players came from outside of Korea to play and win in Korea? It wasn't a whole lot. But now? Koreans and foreigners are playing each other constantly and foreigners are winning games from even the current top Korean players. Sure, Koreans are still winning more, but the gap has narrowed. Magically. In a year. 12 years of BW and the foreign scene can't touch Korea, but in 1 year SC2 has a robust competitive group of foreigners? Maybe it's the lack of BW Koreans making the switch, but maybe not.
I agree with your point in general but this last point seems opposite. When there is a new game, the skill level resets to where everyone is roughly equal. In the first year of BW, foreigners could beat koreans as well. So I'm not sure what the point is here.
In fact, the one thing that gives me hope for a large SC2 skill ceiling is how much Koreans are ALREADY beating foreigners. It's a pattern in recent foreigner tournaments that a sprinkling of Koreans get invited and they always make it deep.
It was designed to update the times, to bring everyone closer together and let the underdog have a real shot at toppling the better player.
I hope this is not the design, because the "better" player should always win.
However, the way in which he should win now must actually be the now more important metagaming/outsmarting/mindgames/strategy, rather than in BW where macro and mechanics (and in general, APM) was much more important than doing fancy mindgames.
I think this is good for the game; if someone cannot outsmart or outplay the opponent, he shouldn't win. Of course macro and apm should still factor in, but I feel BW put too much of a focus on that. After all, we want clever play, not some players who will always be better just because they are better at translating their minds to the keyboard to the game.
So this brings me to your point about how there may not be the bonjwa kind of thing... with this thinking I just explained, I think that will actually be true. I still think there might be some bonjwas, but it won't be as defined as BW I think, but that will just make any future potential bonjwa to be that much more epic/dominating/bonjwa-ish :D
I don't agree with most of this article. I think the clear difference between BW and SC2 players is that BW players practice more. In the years to come I expect we'll see a lot more practice hours going in to SC2 and the play level continue to rise at all levels. BW wasn't predominately an APM/Mechanics fest, the differing levels of apm at the top of BW (with plenty of A/B team members and rookies having prodigious apm's and yet not winning anything) show this. Foreigners doing well today in sc2 compared to bw is due to practice and the health of the current foreigner scene.
All i hear when i read this article. (old but still relevant especially in light of the NASL finals where we are finally starting to see what SC2 can look like)
Want proof? I can't offer that, but there is one barometer that suggests the skill ceiling is at work: the foreign scene. How many BW players came from outside of Korea to play and win in Korea? It wasn't a whole lot. But now? Koreans and foreigners are playing each other constantly and foreigners are winning games from even the current top Korean players. Sure, Koreans are still winning more, but the gap has narrowed. Magically. In a year. 12 years of BW and the foreign scene can't touch Korea, but in 1 year SC2 has a robust competitive group of foreigners? Maybe it's the lack of BW Koreans making the switch, but maybe not.
The time dimension this suggests is illogical. If anything, we should expect the gap between Koreans and foreign players to increase over time, not decrease. Starcraft 2 is only about a year old - maybe a bit older if you count the beta. There hasn't been enough time for the rigorous practice regime and dedication of the Korean pros to establish a sufficient skill differential to create complete dominance. The twelve years of BW actually helped the Koreans get further and further ahead of foreign players.
The longer SC2 is out, the more the gap between the top Koreans and top foreigners grows, in terms of total practice time spent. Already, we're beginning to see the decline of players like BitByBit, who profited from the coin-flippy nature of an unexplored game, and sustained periods of dominance by players like MC and Nestea, who are able to win consistently through superior play.
On July 13 2011 14:39 yosisoy wrote: Why do people consider it good that in BW you had to struggle to do mundane tasks and complain that in SC2 you have MBS and auto-mine? It's a STRATEGY game, not a clicking competition. It's like complaining that we as humans have auto-breathe and coordination implemented - plain silly.
As much as I admire good mechanics and people's abilities to be able to control multiple bases, structures and attack fronts, I personally don't consider that aspect as what I want to be the main criteria that wins games. BW is often compared to chess, yet the game of kings has NOTHING to do with "mechanics". Someone without hands could play chess perfectly well.
Final point: BroodWar's design had major flaws that we've gotten used to and now some of us actually except new games to have the same flaws, and focus on the technical sound of the game instead of the strategy/tactics.
I think most people are viewing the APM issue competitively, or as a spectator. What I mean is, many of the proponents of the BW high-APM style of starcraft were players who considered themselves superior than a vast majority of people, and were sad to see the value of their greatest asset dwindle in SC2. Furthermore, BW high-APM style starcraft created a specific style of play in BW, that made for replays and games that many people find more interesting than in SC2. However, most casual players (who are severely under-represented in TL, despite being over 50% of people that play the game) are thankful for the changes made in SC2 that simplify mechanics. It is incorrect to say that the high APM requirement in BW was a flaw, it was an aspect of the game that can be judged just like any other aspect.
TL;DR The mechanics system in BW wasn't factually right or wrong, people have opinions on it, and yours seems to be you didn't like it. But please don't dispel the legitimacy of others arguments.
I agree with the OP in the sense that SC2 will never be BW in the same way, but may be just as great in its own different way, and I'm excited to see how SC2 will grow and develop.
On July 13 2011 14:29 Zhyq wrote: While agreeing with pretty much most of what is written, I have stop for a moment at one of your points and argue. Surely, for 12 years foreigners couldn't touch Korea, but please do consider factors other than just skill level. Mainly, popularity of each game. Competitive SC2 has attracted many sponsors in the foreign scene. Better graphics have also helped in making it more marketable. This led to an increasing number of players with potential to be able to find support (both morally and economically) to sustain their practice routines and get closer to the Korean level.
I'm not arguing that this is the only difference between BW and SC2, but you have to admit that when a game is pretty obscure to the masses, it's far harder to gather the player pool required for the overall skill level to increase. Can you really say that Korean - foreigner gap would be as huge as it has been in BW if BW was as popular outside of Korea as SC2 is?
Well, no. I concede your point. There are a lot of factors that go into the success/failure of the foreign scene and why it is so much stronger in SC2. I probably underestimate the fact that BW became such a phenomenon in Korea and left everyone else lagging behind in ESPORTS infrastructure.
But I still think the "easiness" of the game was a double-edged sword. Imagine if SC2 were just BW with better graphics? I don't think the competitive foreign scene would have gotten all that much bigger. It would just be a new thing for Koreans to compete over. But the "easiness" of the game also takes away those Boxer-iloveoov-Savior type players that come along and show some truly impressive multitasking abilities.
Er hate to break it to you but Boxer had comparitively low APM in BW, at only around 250.
Luckily, I don't think the answer to the OP's question is unobtainable, or even very far away. We'll have a pretty good idea of just how much mechanics come into play in SC2 when some of those guys up there on the BW Power Rank list find their way to us.
If the OP is right, then they should just casually step into line to walk through the revolving door that is the SC2 bonjwa position and take their turns winning GSLs.
If the OP is wrong, then they should take the top in a matter of weeks and stay there until they burn out, or get too old, or go join the military, or some other kid does just a little bit better.
If I am interested in testing this "skill ceiling" hypothesis, one way I will go about it is to collate the Elo data from TLPD BW and compare that to TLPD SC2 by graphing its frequencies. A "skill ceiling" can been seen if rather than having a bell-shaped curve with a long tail, there'll be a sharp cut-off where much higher porportion of players at the same "maximum Elo level" on the top, comparing to TLPD BW.
Preliminary glance at the datasets don't give me that vibe, both sets of Elos seem to approximate the same bell curve, because of this I see no reason to spend anymore time in this poor "skill ceiling" hypothesis. At least, at this moment, sc2 is not hampered by an imaginary skill ceiling.
A lower skill ceiling means that more people will be closer to the top in terms of skill.
When I watch BW, and see Flash and Jaedong do things elegantly, like Dark Swarms or Medic Marine micro against lurkers, I think to myself, "Wow, they really are pros. I can't even dream of doing that as well as them. Better go practice for it."
When I watch SC2, and see MC throw down storms, I just think "Eh, well it's autocasted. I can probably do that." Marine vs Baneling is probably the one of the only intricate unit relationships in SC2 that requires micro from both ends to maximize cost efficiency.
The "mundane tasks" such as making units well and sending units to mine may seem extraneous, but in reality they help separate the good players from the great players. Perhaps it's my inner Asian speaking, but I feel that hard work should be rewarded in a game, especially one as great as Starcraft.
Without these petty tasks such as sending workers to mine, anyone can be good without actually spending effort. Would it be fair for a person who spends 2 hours a day playing SC2 to win over a progamer like Huk who spends his entire day?
This thing again i hope it gets locked I disagree with the OP because first you can compere SC2 thats is 1 year old and BW that is 13 years old.2nd saying that the skill level is low yes the game is more easy for casuals and yes there is the AI but think again after 2 years making your scvs and other things that are auto-tuned by the game WILL NOT MAKE you PRO in SC2.The game will be million years ahead and you will have to do so much more because the AI is so much better look at MC vs PuMa final at some battles you see that PuMa has way more things then MC but MC wins the battle then MC goes for a attack with more stuff and loses them why? because players adjusted things and the battle went another way.Now players lets say can adjust 3 or 4 things at 1 battle and react to 3-4 things that the opponent is doing in the battle while macroing behind imagine after some years players start to adjust 13things at one battle and react to 13 other things the game will be at a whole new level so don't tell me how the skill level is low and stop judging stuff that are so new.The other thing is to say top players will switch fast and there is no dominant player is a insult to all those pro gamers who practice day and night to become better ppl like Idra,NesTea,MC,HuK and many others now maybe there isn't 1 who is above all but there is a pack that is above all.Even in BW there were only some types of dominant players who had only 1 special skill that put them above others but their other skills were on top level as well.Only now after 13 years there is this kid called Flash who has all of them and owns the scene like no one ever was. PP:I'm sry for my grammar and i hope this gets closed fast.
It was designed to update the times, to bring everyone closer together and let the underdog have a real shot at toppling the better player.
I hope this is not the design, because the "better" player should always win.
However, the way in which he should win now must actually be the now more important metagaming/outsmarting/mindgames/strategy, rather than in BW where macro and mechanics (and in general, APM) was much more important than doing fancy mindgames.
I think this is good for the game; if someone cannot outsmart or outplay the opponent, he shouldn't win. Of course macro and apm should still factor in, but I feel BW put too much of a focus on that. After all, we want clever play, not some players who will always be better just because they are better at translating their minds to the keyboard to the game.
So this brings me to your point about how there may not be the bonjwa kind of thing... with this thinking I just explained, I think that will actually be true. I still think there might be some bonjwas, but it won't be as defined as BW I think, but that will just make any future potential bonjwa to be that much more epic/dominating/bonjwa-ish :D
This is very true.
There is also a possibility that mechanics become the defining thing of SC2. Just because players are not having to fight the UI doesn't mean that efficiently using what is there cannot give you an advantage. It just may be a smaller gap between the APM kings, and the second tier.
I agree with all of this except the fact that SC2 players will continually get better, BW has YEARS on SC2 and just because they made the macro mechanics easier doesn't mean the skill ceiling will be lower.
It makes for a less steep learning curve(which is why its so popular in the US now? Back in the day, no one fucking played bw except a handful because it was so hard to pick up)
If you think about it, the apm/multitask that would normally go into macroing can be redirected towards multitasking in other aspects of the game like micro, multi prong harass, expanding, etc. The reason a bonjwa hasnt emerged IS due to the fact that no one has hit that skill ceiling yet, because people are continually getting better/surpassing others.
I think the game is too young for us to make conclusions now. Broodwar took years to mature, give SC2 some time.
and for the record im a hardcore broodwar fan and I hated on sc2 for awhile
I just want to add that, I think other reasons why sc2 is so much easier to play is because of how easy and simple the units function. Like the terran unit composition includes MMM compared to the BW unit composition of siege tanks and vultures. Well all MMM has to do is just stim and attack while simply kiting. BW units had constant mine spreading, and sieging and unsieging using multiple amounts of hotkeys. I guess that falls in the mechanic/micro category. Anyawys, I really hope they don't make the game more less nubby in Heart of the Swarm, but I do agree with a lot of the points OP has made.
On July 13 2011 14:25 Primadog wrote: This article is terrible.
It is terrible because it consists entirely of conjectures and false analogies with no evidence or data to back it up. The central premise: that the skill ceiling is low, completely counters all existing tournament results everywhere.
Elephant was bad, but this was infinitely worse. There are plenty of resources available if you know or bother to look to which to back your assertions, but no effort were made. Shame on you.
Thanks for the opinion.
1. Explain an example of a false analogy. 2. This article was theoretical in nature; it was never intended to have data (which seems impossible to obtain for this somewhat subjective concept anyway). 3. Counters tournament results? I just offer an opinion why MKP goes from GSL champ to out of Code S. Or why Fruitdealer has never been heard from again. The results are erratic, whether I try to explain them or not. 4. The Elephant article was not bad, you just had a knee-jerk reaction to it. 5. Again, resources aren't necessary to suggest a subjective argument. You give me a couple statistics I could use to "prove" the relative skill ceilings of BW and SC2 and I will go do that. It seems like an untenable criticism of the article.
I will need to do research on the TLPD Elos to confidently say how terribly off it is. If you're willing to wait, I can have something out in about ten days. The most glaring is the the "macro button" stupidity. By that way of thinking, I can say that BW can be EVEN BETTER if players are required to tap-dance while playing.
A sham you say? It is theoretical, because I'm theorizing (theoretical: of, pertaining to, or consisting in theory; not practical). And yes, it's opinionated, because as I stated from the start, it's my opinion. So I literally don't understand what you're problem with it is. It's more a conversation piece than some empirical work of majesty. And it is actually achieving it's goal quite nicely.
And tap dancing? No, that would not help the game. That doesn't makes sense or have anything to do with anything I said. But you want to argue that it's better for the game if more stuff is automated? Perhaps all the units move by themselves. Spells cast automatically. You can't even control the units. Then whoever clicks the fastest wins. That would be much simpler and everyone could be a pro then.
Maybe what makes a game great at the pro level is giving players just more things than they can handle, so the very best players have room to practice and grow and do all those things. Maybe that was the point of my article. I guess you're not a fan. Maybe I wrote it just to point out something about that Elephant in the Room article that bothered me. And my bad about MKP. He just finished second like 8 times. Whoops.
You're entire argument has a huge flaw and because of it has absolutely no value. What's the flaw?
Micro skill ceiling. SC2 has an unattainable skill ceiling with regard to micro. Check the automaton 2000 videos. Ignoring this is ignoring half the game.
I think SC2 can produce even greater control and "snap decision making" than BW. I remember watching the Puma vs MC series and couldn't help marvel at the incredible ghost and bio micro that Puma possess. Fast forward to the Clide vs Tester match and I could see the disparity between Clide's control and Puma's.
I agree with the OP: SC2 will not be great in the same way as BW. It will become great in it's own special manner (possibly in split-second decision making). And the control/micro requirements are definitely there in SC2, but the macro skill ceiling is definitely less.
EPT
