EPTThe Official Live On Three Thread - Page 28
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UbiNax
Denmark381 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On August 04 2011 16:30 gh0un wrote: Wrong. If you compare the last version of guinsoo to the newest version of icefrog, its a difference like day and night. The way dota was before icefrog came, had nothing to do with a competitive and fun game. It was a complete mess (i know because i played it). Back then it was one of the many heromaps, or line defense maps as they were also called. All of them trash, including dota allstars. It was completely imbalanced, buggy and overall the item and hero cast has very little in common with the current dota. There was no metagame, no strategies, no basic concepts of how to win a game, because many features that define these things, were completely missing. Basically it was mindless playing with other pubs. Icefrog shaped it to what it is today. Most pubs now are more competitive than lower level league players in sc2, because the game is very competitive and doesnt depend on just one person to win a game, it depends on the whole team. Everyone is getting better in a rapid fashion, otherwise they get flamed, HARD. There was no such thing back in the guinsoo era, because no one cared about winning or losing a trash game. Oh wow he built a worker, and another worker AND finally a supply depot. Expansion going up, oh wow another worker. You get the point? The difference is, the early laning phase in dota HAS the possibility of action, depending on how the game goes. Earlygame in starcraft will always pretty much be like what i described above, unless someone cheeses, and cheese games are mostly detested. As the earlygame in sc2 doesnt prevent it from being entertaining, why would dota´s earlygame be different? About the early game phase thing, it is true that both Dota and Starcraft 2 have slightly dull beginnings, but in Starcraft 2, this doesn't last for long. In Dota, this phase of farming may take a long time before ganking and team battles occur. Watching heroes buy items and kill creeps is not nearly as fun as it sounds and Starcraft's action gets underway very quickly. The mirrors all start off incredibly action packed. TvZ nearly always has 2 rax or hellions. TvP has 2 rax, 3gate pressure, and the plethora of all ins that occur in that matchup. PvZ is probably the only matchup which has a boring beginning, especially with a forge expand. Protoss takes natural and Zerg takes 3rd and waits for the inevitable timing push from Protoss or the quick third. Watching Zerg drone up and spread creep and watch Protoss get more gates and probes and blink is probably comparable to the beginning of Dota most. | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
On August 04 2011 17:56 Scereye wrote: JFYI: When Guinsoo stopped supporting Dota, there where like 5-6 people creating their "own" Dota. I cant remember the names of the maps. But they where all called "Dota: 'something'" One day Icefrog decided to get the best heros/items out of every dota map, and balance it. And now u understand why its Dota -Allstars-  Actually guinso did that. He took the heroes and implanted them into one game. Icefrog is the one that removed the allstars and balanced the game. Now its just DotA. Btw, SotG cast kinda came across very arrogant in the recent episode (even if that wasnt their intention, or maybe it was, cant be sure). They were talking about how they shouldve had more of a headstart for the dota2 tournament so that they couldve decided to make an impromptu dota team in order to win easy money. Thats just plain arrogant, uneducated and embarassing. Ill tell you something, if they were to create a dota team right now and trained for a YEAR, they would still get demolished by the lowest levels of pubs in a cm (captains mode, this is the mode that tournaments are being played on). This is due to the fact that no newbies play cm, they play ap or similar modes. Anyone that plays cm is way better than a normal ap pub and as a conclusion even the lowest level of pub cms are highskilled. The game has over 100 heroes with 4 skills each, plenty of items and viable item builds for each hero lineup, and plenty of different combinations of hero lineup´s for the different lanes. Even if you play every day for several years, you still wont have experienced every combination of heroes that are possible, and if you finally have, you wont have experienced all of the different scenarios they can be used in. This does not yet include having played them themselves, just seeing them once If you want to have any chance at dota, you need to know how to handle yourself in ALL of the different situations, otherwise you just get rolled over by better players. Hard thing to do if there are over 100 heroes and almost infinity possibilities of how to combine them. Now if they dont stand a chance against the lowest lvl of pub cm players after 1 year of training, what do you think would happen if they decided to participate at this event? (even if they cant anyways, its invite only for a reason, these are proteams for gods sake) I bet they wouldnt even last 5 minutes in the lane, and thats generous. More likely is that they will get firstblooded before the timer reaches 0 minutes, lose complete lane control and basically are at such a huge disadvantage that they will have lost before the 1 minute mark. The game has a much higher skill ceiling than sc2 (or broodwar) can ever hope to have, its just that the skillset required is completely different to that of starcraft. You need experience and fast decision making in order to know what to do in the endless scenarios there are. In starcraft its more about mechanical skill and macro, while that doesnt hold that much truth in sc2 anymore either (many pros are of the opinion that sc2 requires way less mechanical skill than broodwar, and i agree, having played both broodwar and sc2 myself). I believe that statement did not only rub me the wrong way, its just arrogant, uneducated and overall embarassing. As an example, a friend of mine started playing dota over a year ago (while i have been playing dota for several years) and even though i teached him stuff about the game extensively, probably every single day, he barely scratched the surface. By now he barely knows all the heroes and their respective spells. He still hasnt played every hero himself, and he still doesnt have indepth knowledge about every heroes´s role in all of the different situations, for most heroes there is still a complete lack of knowdedge about their role and strength and weaknesses. | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
On August 04 2011 19:04 Micket wrote: About the early game phase thing, it is true that both Dota and Starcraft 2 have slightly dull beginnings, but in Starcraft 2, this doesn't last for long. In Dota, this phase of farming may take a long time before ganking and team battles occur. Watching heroes buy items and kill creeps is not nearly as fun as it sounds and Starcraft's action gets underway very quickly. The mirrors all start off incredibly action packed. TvZ nearly always has 2 rax or hellions. TvP has 2 rax, 3gate pressure, and the plethora of all ins that occur in that matchup. PvZ is probably the only matchup which has a boring beginning, especially with a forge expand. Protoss takes natural and Zerg takes 3rd and waits for the inevitable timing push from Protoss or the quick third. Watching Zerg drone up and spread creep and watch Protoss get more gates and probes and blink is probably comparable to the beginning of Dota most. Did you actually watch A SINGLE dota game? Because i find dota´s early game much more thrilling than sc2´s. On paper it might sound bad, just like sc2´s early game sounds equally bad, but in reality the early game is ridiculous right now. Of course it depends on the game and the lineup and the strategy that is being used, but trilanes are always entertaining to watch. Sometimes one of the trilanes gains an advantage fairly quickly, which leads into roaming gank action PRETTY FAST. I have a feeling you are just making assumptions based on what you think the early game would look like. In dota there is no clear cut between farming phase and non farming phase. There are heroes that need to farm the majority of the game (carries) and there are heroes that dont need to farm at all and most of the times you will have both types in your lineup. Popular strategies involve having 1 or 2 carries and devoting the rest of the team to keep them safe from the enemy team´s ganks. The enemy team has a similar goal, and both goals coincide which lead into very interesting dynamics relatively fast in most games. Some games are shit though (just like some games in sc2 are shit). edit: ah damn, sry for doublepost | ||
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Der_Magen
182 Posts
On August 04 2011 20:34 gh0un wrote: + Show Spoiler + Btw, sotg cast kinda came across very arrogant in the recent episode (even if that wasnt their intention, or maybe it was, cant be sure). They were talking about how they shouldve had more of a headstart for the dota2 tournament so that they couldve decided to make an impromptu dota team in order to win easy money. Thats just plain arrogant, uneducated and embarassing. Ill tell you something, if they were to create a dota team right now and trained for a YEAR, they would still get demolished by the lowest levels of pubs in a cm (captains mode, this is the mode that tournaments are being played on). This is due to the fact that no newbies play cm, they play ap or similar modes. Anyone that plays cm is way better than a normal ap pub and as a conclusion even the lowest level of pub cms are highskilled. The game has over 100 heroes with 4 skills each, plenty of items and viable item builds for each hero lineup, and plenty of different combinations of hero lineup´s for the different lanes. Even if you play every day for several years, you still wont have experienced every combination of heroes that are possible, and if you finally have, you wont have experienced all of the different scenarios they can be used in. This does not yet include having played them themselves, just seeing them once If you want to have any chance at dota, you need to know how to handle yourself in ALL of the different situations, otherwise you just get rolled over by better players. Hard thing to do if there are over 100 heroes and almost infinity possibilities of how to combine them. Now if they dont stand a chance against the lowest lvl of pub cm players after 1 year of training, what do you think would happen if they decided to participate at this event? (even if they cant anyways, its invite only for a reason, these are proteams for gods sake) I bet they wouldnt even last 5 minutes in the lane, and thats generous. More likely is that they will get firstblooded before the timer reaches 0 minutes, lose complete lane control and basically are at such a huge disadvantage that they will have lost before the 1 minute mark. The game has a much higher skill ceiling than sc2 (or broodwar) can ever hope to have, its just that the skillset required is completely different to that of starcraft. You need experience and fast decision making in order to know what to do in the endless scenarios there are. In starcraft its more about mechanical skill and macro, while that doesnt hold that much truth in sc2 (many pros are of the opinion that sc2 requires way less mechanical skill than broodwar, and i agree, having played both broodward and sc2 myself). I believe that statement did not only rub me the wrong way, its just arrogant, uneducated and overall embarassing. i'm pretty sure this arrogant, uneducated and embarassing statement was a joke or do you really think that Artosis would quit GSL to play Dota nonstop? btw the same elitism of yours that non-Dota players have no chance against Dota-players even if they train a lot could also be seen before the SC2 release and now we have players from different games competing at the same level( ofc u might argue that the difference between broodwar and sc2 is bigger than the difference between Dota and Dota2 but since not a whole lot of people have played Dota2 it isn't sure that the Dota skills transition 100% into Dota2) | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
On August 04 2011 21:52 Der_Magen wrote: i'm pretty sure this arrogant, uneducated and embarassing statement was a joke or do you really think that Artosis would quit GSL to play Dota nonstop? No you didnt understand what i meant. They meant it in the way of making easy money on the fly. Incontrol even brought his tale up where he was at a tournament for sc bw, then him and idra were eliminated from that tournament and on the fly joined the tournament for a completely different game they never heard of before (it was hosted at the same location and they were searching for more players). Then they apparently made third place at that event (which was the national finals or something along those lines). Comparing dota to such a random game, cmon. They werent taking dota seriously, AT ALL. Watch it before you argue about it. I havent played sc bw for years, and then comes sc2 and i immediately make masters league (on europe). Learning the basics in sc2 and getting quite good at it is much easier than learning dota´s basics and getting quite good at it. They assumed they could just waltz in and roflstomp everyone and take the 1 million, as if it was childs play. They were ridiculing about how such a game could possibly have a 1.7 million prize pool, demonstrating that their knowledge about dota is close to zero, but proceeded to make assumptions about how they wouldve owned it up. Dont get me wrong, i love these guys and their show, i just think they dropped the same brick that djWheat dropped yesterday(the day before that maybe). | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:08 gh0un wrote: Dont get me wrong, i love these guys and their show, i just think they dropped the same brick that djWheat dropped yesterday(the day before that maybe). Which brick are you talking about? Because I NEVER EVER said that I thought someone could come into the DotA scene and instantly catch up to the existing DotA superstars. In fact, I said the exact opposite. When I was getting answers from the community, I had several individuals said that they had played DotA for many years, but the moment they took a break it became increasingly harder to follow along with the metagame and the many changes which occurred during their absence. I never questioned the skill of these players or the dedication to their game. The only brick I dropped was the fact that 1M$ didn't guarantee success for any eSports game. | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:08 gh0un wrote:They were ridiculing about how such a game could possibly have a 1.7 million prize pool, demonstrating that their knowledge about dota is close to zero, but proceeded to make assumptions about how they wouldve owned it up. Did you listen to the same show I did? I have no clue what you're going on about. Wheat & co. were very open to it, intruiged by it, and excited for it! You could hear in the Australian caster and that Euro player's answers that they were psyched by the attention the self-admittedly closed scene was getting from elsewhere. Questions were on point, respect was shown (especially given DotA's insane player #s). In short, Live on Three did a bang-up job. But I'm repeating myself. | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:36 dizzy101 wrote: Did you listen to the same show I did? I have no clue what you're going on about. Wheat & co. were very open to it, intruiged by it, and excited for it! You could hear in the Australian caster and that Euro player's answers that they were psyched by the attention the self-admittedly closed scene was getting from elsewhere. Questions were on point, respect was shown (especially given DotA's insane player #s). In short, Live on Three did a bang-up job. But I'm repeating myself. I think he was talking about SotG (which was also confusing to me). I haven't listened to this weeks episode, but from what I've gathered, the SotG folks were making some pretty epic claims (like they could win the tournament). Maybe some of the heat can go their way now hah | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:30 djWHEAT wrote: Which brick are you talking about? Because I NEVER EVER said that I thought someone could come into the DotA scene and instantly catch up to the existing DotA superstars. In fact, I said the exact opposite. When I was getting answers from the community, I had several individuals said that they had played DotA for many years, but the moment they took a break it became increasingly harder to follow along with the metagame and the many changes which occurred during their absence. I never questioned the skill of these players or the dedication to their game. The only brick I dropped was the fact that 1M$ didn't guarantee success for any eSports game. I meant your post against which many here protested (the zero advancement of dota in esports stuff and your sarcastic jabs), which in return sparked your interest in the dota scene (once again?). Sry about the mixup, its not the same thing obviously, its just about the same game. Love you and your shows, otherwise i wouldnt have gone out of my way to answer your questions about dota. I just thought you jumped the shark there a little too soon. SotG jumped the shark big time however. In my eyes you redeemed yourself regarding dota | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
Their website is down and google is helping much. | ||
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:46 Aegeis wrote: Does anyone have a link to their RSS feed on Feedburner? Their website is down and google is helping much. http://feeds.feedburner.com/onemoregame-lo3-mp3 | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:44 gh0un wrote: I meant your post against which many here protested (the zero advancement of dota in esports stuff and your sarcastic jabs), which in return sparked your interest in the dota scene (once again?). Sry about the mixup, its not the same thing obviously, its just about the same game. Love you and your shows, otherwise i wouldnt have gone out of my way to answer your questions about dota. I just thought you jumped the shark there a little too soon. SotG jumped the shark big time however. In my eyes you redeemed yourself regarding dota Thanks. I did add context to that particular "zero advancement" statement (in this thread), which I'm sure not everyone read, but I do feel like it explained why I said that in more detail. At the end of the day it was more or less the realization that even though I had that perspective (due to my own personal involvement and history in eSports), it doesn't take away from the fact that scene saw growth and expansion on their own. As someone who carries the philosophy that we all need to be more educated on eSports as a whole, it was definitely my fault for not applying this to a scene regardless of whether or not it had some of the same opportunities as other games. Although redemption is satisfying, I'm more satisfied that I'm walking away from this past week with a much more educated perspective on DotA (and MOBA games in general). | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:46 Aegeis wrote: Does anyone have a link to their RSS feed on Feedburner? Their website is down and google is helping much. Website should be back up. There were some host patches going on that broke a few things on our side but it appears that things are fixed now. | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:44 gh0un wrote: In my eyes you redeemed yourself regarding dota Yeah the interview was well done and hopefully in the future it leads to more interest/interviews/coverage especially after gamescom where hopefully dj/slasher/scoots will watch a full dota tournament. also just to prove my hipster pestering legitness ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GvUlQ.jpg) | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 05 2011 00:23 dacthehork wrote: also just to prove my hipster pestering legitness LOL the problem with that PM is that it went to Slasher Next time add me! | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
What i appreciates the most is the fact that djwheat recognizes that this tournament is somewhat of a reward for these dota professionals who have stuck with the game for years. I see wheat has a lot of banter with Maelk but i'm sure both respect each other and that djwheat recognizes the loyalty and dedication that Maelk has for dota. For many, this tournament is not only a flashbang to open and promote dota 2, but also a fitting grand finale for many people's dota 1 careers which is why it's good that the prize pool is so lucrative considering dota has been plagued with 6 months long tournaments with 300 bucks prize pool which ended up not getting paid. | ||
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SafeWord
United States522 Posts
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 05 2011 00:54 madmandrit wrote: How long does it take before this weeks eps is in mp3? They are processing right now. So I would say by the end of the day. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
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