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On June 06 2011 13:34 Inori wrote:
I've got to point out the dialog they had with MC.
"- Are you mad?"
"- Ofc not, zerg isn't supposed to win vs protoss"
Really, Idra? After Nestea winning GSL? After you winning IPL? After such an awesome MLG run for Zerg and 2-0 MC in good macro games, you still whine about PvZ? Really?
All the people in these threads love to bring up wins as a fact of balance, but it isn't that easy even if every race won 1/3 of each tournament or if every race had a 50% win ratio perfectly. Balanced and winnable are two different sides of the coin.
Anyway, IdrA was on tilt and he says stuff like this all the time anyway.. IdrA has a mental imbalance and weakness which transfers over into his own self defeatist attitude and then he loses games because of it. It is called frustration and people take it way to seriously.
This article is a no brainer, Idra did this vs Huk because of void rays and now against MMA because he didn't scout the map or let the last battle play out before he left. He does it anytime he has a slight disadvantage because he feels that the opponent he is playing is a machine and incapable of making mistakes to allow him to catch up in a losing game. Either way, IdrA could of won this tournament if he played like he did on Friday, and I was sad to see old IdrA kill himself in this tournament.
Side note about balance:
I'm sick of LR threads shitted up with imbalanced complaining from every side. All it does is make us "racist" and form into groups of players (Protoss, Zerg and Terran). We all play Starcraft II and we all have a ton to improve before we can even come close to complaining.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote:
Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
The problem with this is that there is Fog of War and actual units and a human opponent on the other side. Humans make mistakes even if they "should" have X many units at this time. Not everyone plays optimally, not even IdrA. So instead of playing it out he actually loses the game to himself.
I actually have had this happen to me first hand.
I was a low to mid diamond player and someone from a clan that was mid to high masters was kind enough to give me a game on Tal'darim. Game progresses, I get ahead early with some decent mutalisk harass and I'm playing the game of my life. 4 base Zerg against 2 and a half base Terran. I have 30-40 apm more than normal. I can feel the high of adrenaline kicking in each battle and I surprise myself with how good I hold the first ledge push into my natural. I kill off the first wave with a flock of 20-25 mutas and ling/bane. Keep harassing as I'm saturated my 4th base, get two more macro hatches to keep up my ling numbers. The last push comes out and right as he seiges up and making his slow push I have my mutas magic boxed on his thors and my lings come in from all angles. I leave the game as all my lings melt and my mutas still magic boxing the thors.
In my head, the masters player just outmacroed me and I lost because I didn't have enough stuff to beat him. Then I go back to the replay again. Guess what, I had 10 more mutas on a different part of the map and 60 idle lings just sitting there at my natural while my other lings and mutas were dying in battle. I mentally gave up because I thought a master Terran could easily beat a mid to high diamond zerg. Instead of playing the game out and realizing how many lings I still had, I just quit because his race and skill was at another level than mine.
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On June 06 2011 13:55 nAgeDitto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 13:52 rickybobby wrote:
It was very strange but i find it hard to believe that idra would be this 'dispassionate' to throw games away. In gsl it seems like a lot of players will stay in a game thats over because they want so bad to win and idra is the opposite, even if hes behind why wouldnt he try to battle back? And artosis will say its because he doesnt want to deal with the mental stress and anger of that but still.. these ggs were just rediculous I think idra explained it on inside the game last week. HE 'respects' the opposing player to play optimally from that point on so he doesnt hope for mistakes and admits gg. (So if you're behind in early/mid game, you would stay behind... in a perfect scenario) I wish he played through his games though 
obviously, idra doesn't respect himself then, cause in order to get in those positions in the first place it's because he didn't play optimally himself, it's because he himself made a mistake.
newsflash, people make mistakes no matter how good they are, thats kinda the point of the game.
if people are at the same skill level, they'll make the same number of mistakes. So by idra's logic, whoever makes the first big mistake loses, they should just quit the game. even though the other player might make a big blunder somewhere else along the line.
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The fact that idra did so well while stupidly quitting out of so many games just shows you how much potential and talent is wasted in him.
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On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote:
Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
No, no, no! What makes starcraft so great is that people CAN comeback!
Sure it's cool that IdrA can realize in a vacuum (assuming all perfect play) that he's lost, but the fact of the matter is that he hadn't. One of my favorite games of all time was a PvT on paradoxx where boxer had this AMAZING comeback.
"Why wait it out when you know the outcome"
That's the problem, you can't know the outcome, you can't assume that a player is playing perfectly, a mark of a good player is someone who does his best to win at all costs.
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On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 13:29 GenesisX wrote:On June 06 2011 13:28 saefok wrote:On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote:
Match fixing? ...Must be joking right? I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing. IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
He still had 18 mutas, and he had enough bases that he could've reinforced. If anything, MMA was about to gg.
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On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote:
Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
You do realize that MMA had lost the big decisive fight in the middle right? He did not have enough marine to fend off the mutas and those tanks would of been free food. He is running on 2 bases almost out of mineral.
Knowing when you are defeated is a good thing like in chess where Grand master would quit knowing when they are defeated but clearly Idra misread this. How can you even compliment him about such ability after what Huk did to him with the halucinated void rays and now this?
TLDR: Idra on many bases and MMA on 2 base that is running out. Idra just needed to clean those tanks and fall back and deal with the drop and then stop MMA from securing a third and he wins. Obviously I am not trying to say that Idra had a clear advantage, but he had a pretty damn good chance to win and it was a foolish choice to gg so early.
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On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 13:29 GenesisX wrote:On June 06 2011 13:28 saefok wrote:On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote:
Match fixing? ...Must be joking right? I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing. IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
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Idra clearly has the worst gg timing ever, it´s happened too often now. Someone close to Idra, an EG guy or something, needs to remove the g key from his keyboard.
On a serious note: They should convince Idra to never say gg, just play out every game untill he loses all his buildings or wins. Either that or he needs to work alot on his mental game, but people around him seem to have said that for a long time, because if this keeps going on I think it will be his downfall.
The hallucination gg against Huk was kind of funny but very tragic, the stupid all-in against MC in 2nd game at Stockholm dreamhack inv was clearly signs of his mentality issues, total meltdown vs MMA and vs MC he just seemed to have given up before he entered the booth. I´m seriously starting to wonder what´s wrong with him.
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On June 06 2011 14:06 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 14:04 Defacer wrote:On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote:
Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized. IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future. Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG! IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe. This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse. It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
Touche.
The point is, IdrA's brain and judgement is officially fucked. He's such a talented player but lacks the will, desire, or even hope required to be a truly great player.
He has the exact opposite of a never-say-die attitude.
Dude needs to see a sports psychologist.
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On June 06 2011 14:15 Limenade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:On June 06 2011 13:29 GenesisX wrote:On June 06 2011 13:28 saefok wrote:On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote:
Match fixing? ...Must be joking right? I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing. IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base. idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
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On June 06 2011 14:16 Gurgl wrote:
Idra clearly has the worst gg timing ever, it´s happened too often now. Someone close to Idra, an EG guy or something, needs to remove the g key from his keyboard.
On a serious note: They should convince Idra to never say gg, just play out every game untill he loses all his buildings or wins. Either that or he needs to work alot on his mental game, but people around him seem to have said that for a long time, because if this keeps going on I think it will be his downfall.
The hallucination gg against Huk was kind of funny but very tragic, now I´m seriously starting to wonder what´s wrong with him.
I think as history has shown Idras G key isnt necessary when he leaves a game.
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I think Fantasy and Idra should consolidate each other on how to time their GG better :D
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decided to translate some of the comments written in korean on the original playxp article :
Greg Fields : "fucking kimchi man!"
lollololol im gonna go crazy. what are both of them doing lololol
idra the cool guy who doesn't play losing games
cool guy idra
oh~ what ? what?
cool guy
what is this? giving up on winning games?
if you watch boxer's games, he still tries to defend and harass even when the game is over. of course he rarely makes a come back from such situations but when he does, it becomes a game to remember. i believe this is something idra needs to learn from boxer
not sure if this is because hes zerg but judging from how he instantly typed gg last time he got bunker rushed, i think hes trying to say zerg needs some buffs lolol
honestly it's funny to see him type to mc that protoss is too strong. everyone knows how good mc is and his gsl victories. greg just lacks skills
i watched this and almost died from laughing
it is up to the player to gg out when he feels he is at a disadvantage.
but one thing is for sure. looks like its gonna be hard for him to gain popularity
greg thought he lost all his drones at his natural but they were actually all just sent to his gas
idra just go die
idra was always like this.
remember i think it was in gsl season 3 when jinro bunker rushed him on metal.
as soon as his ramp was blocked with bunkers he gged out. if it was ladder he probably
woulda typed fucking bunker and left
if you look at him from greg's perspective, it kind of makes sense
i did not translate every single comment but that is most of it !
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On June 06 2011 14:18 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 14:15 Limenade wrote:On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:On June 06 2011 13:29 GenesisX wrote:On June 06 2011 13:28 saefok wrote:On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote:
Match fixing? ...Must be joking right? I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing. IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base. idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game WE know this. IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes. IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
True. That's why players like Fantasy and Boxer only GG when their base is literally torn to the ground. And they're better players for it.
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I think Idra judged pretty well. You have to consider that how can one expect someone to kill their CC? But anyways...
Like incontrol said, you would expect another army to be ready from MMA (which was not really true since he lost his third so he wasn't able to make any sizable force), and since it would be 3 base vs 3 base, and Idra only had Mutas left over, it would be GG.
Now, he had Mutas which can harass, but they can't do anything if you don't have bling and ling to mop things up. Mutas help pick off Tanks and harass but that's not going to do anything if you can't take out the Marines.
With those Mutas and his nat drones he could definitely have cleaned up that drop without losing too many Mutas though.
And thus I conclude that although Idra would definitely have been disadvantaged (especially if MMA did not kill his third), he should still have played out longer -- not because theres a really small chance someone will kill his own base, but because he wasn't THAT disadvantaged. While it's almost impossible someone will kill their own base, it's pretty likely your opponent will make a small positioning error or such.
All the people in these threads love to bring up wins as a fact of balance, but it isn't that easy even if every race won 1/3 of each tournament or if every race had a 50% win ratio perfectly. Balanced and winnable are two different sides of the coin.
People don't do that to show they're balanced -- they're using that logic against the people who try to bring up wins as a fact of imbalance, to show that those whiners can't say a matchup is imbalanced so easily.
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On June 06 2011 14:18 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 14:15 Limenade wrote:On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:On June 06 2011 13:29 GenesisX wrote:On June 06 2011 13:28 saefok wrote:On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote:
Match fixing? ...Must be joking right? I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing. IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base. idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game WE know this. IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes. IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
Sorry, but that bold sentence doesn't seem kinda nuts to you?
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On June 06 2011 13:36 xza wrote:
Even if you don't have hope, atleast play a game that is ENTERTAINING FOR YOUR FANS AND ALSO YOUR OPPONENT'S FANS.
That's your opinion as a spectator, he reserves every right to not care about it one bit. I played DotA before SC2 and there were a lot of people who had negative opinions about the trends of the games, especially during a period where the average game length exploded to about an hour to two hours of turtling. If professional teams had to take their fans into consideration they would be losing where they shouldn't.
I'm quite aware it's easy to say herp derp but Idra didn't win lulz, but that's how he plays and that's how he has been playing for quite a long time. Whether or not he's lacking confidence is not a concern of mine, he makes his decisions completely on his own and doesn't give a crap about what other people think of him. I find that very much admirable.
To return to your original statement, I find very little entertainment in games where one part knows he has lost. While there are players who are either blissfully ignorant to the situation or are such ballers that take the opportunity to just do crazy stuff, Idra would look like a puppy shut out in the rain.
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On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 13:29 GenesisX wrote:On June 06 2011 13:28 saefok wrote:On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote:
Match fixing? ...Must be joking right? I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing. IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
16 mutas is more than a small amount.
![[image loading]](http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9997/77707376.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7533/98098086.jpg)
Idra was definitely ahead, even if he traded those mutas for all the marines, he would have still been even due to a superior economy.
Here's the replay if anyone is interested.
[url blocked]
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For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
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On June 06 2011 14:06 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 14:04 Defacer wrote:On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote:
Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized. IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future. Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG! IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe. This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse. It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
Even the BW legends make terrible, terrible mistakes. For example, Flash once let a Zerg put a Nydus in his base, and in BW you have to make a proxy hatch and hive tech for that! Savior famously forgot to upgrade the +attack speed upgrade for lings once. Idra's GG timing is just ridiculous. Not that I really blame him for doing it every once in a while, but it's starting to become routine.
(Garry Kasparov, one of the best chess players to ever live, once resigned a game where he could've forced a draw immediately. And in chess you can just look at the other guy's shit!!!)
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EPT
