Greg Field's "Cool Image" leave international fans "shocked"
Greg Fields <Idra> who attended MLG Columbus playing Starcraft 2 shocked all his fans with his "Cool image". The reason for easily giving up a game he had a big lead.
During the Semi Finals against MMA, Idra overwhelmed MMA's tanks and marines with his zergling, baneling, mutalisk and the fans rejoiced expecting Idra to take the game. However, during the attack Idra abruptly gg'ed and left the game leaving everyone in the audience speechless for over 10 seconds.
Idra had a sure advantage, and the only marines were in Idra's natural harassing. Also, MMA accidentally destroyed his Command Center in his gold expansion making the GG even more shocking.
The reason why Idra gg was because he mistakenly thought he was at a disadvantage. Due to this shocking incident, Idra came up on twitter trend and online communities exploded with comments.
MMA advised Greg Fields to "be positive" in his interview following the easy win.
Idra's "Cool image" carried through his games against OGsMC. After his games with MMA, he would GG after each of his attack failed and showed his "cool image"(?).
does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
saw gold CC being (re)built, didn't scout that that was the 3rd, thought that it was the 4th, thought he was wayyyyy behind with no forces, gg's out.
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
It has been said Idra thought MMA was taking his 4th base at the gold instead of his 3rd. Idra felt that because of MMA's harass, and Idra losing his banelings to tanks, Idra thought he was significantly behind, so he left. I'm not sure if this is true, but this what I heard from others.
Once IdrA gets on tilt all it takes is one drop on him, one failed attack by him, one harassment gone wrong by him, or one of his bases lost at a key time to set him off to GG.
Ya Idra had no way of knowing that MMA killed his own orbital so he thought the gold building was a 4th. He also sent all the drones at his natural to a geyser during the drop, but mistakenly thought they all died when he looked back, since all the drones overlap lining up for the geyser. Thinking he was behind economically, and having just lost all his banelings, he thought he was behind and figured MMA was too good to lose once he's ahead.
Idra thought wrong and left too soon, but that's Idra.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
Right clicked drones to gas which clumped them up leaving him to think all his drones were dead. He thought MMA had the gold for a long time, which he didn't obviously lololol. I think he thought there were more marines than there actually were.
I still don't know why he would leave, IdrA himself had a fully saturated gold.
maybe he did it to create buzz in the esports scene to make it more appealing (helping the growth of esports)? if he is willing to sacrifice the money then maybe
On June 06 2011 13:23 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: From PlayXP
Greg Field's "Cool Image" leave international fans "shocked"
Idra's "Cool image" carried through his games against OGsMC. After his games with MMA, he would GG after each of his attack failed and showed his "cool image"(?).
In the end Idra gave MC 4 games and ended up 4th.
MC outskilled idra during those 4-0 games...
you can't possibly be saying that idra lost four games INTENTIONALLY(correct me if im wrong).
I was very disappointed with idra's attitude during the tournament. Whether he was winning at that point in the game or not doesn't matter to me. But the fact that he would quit at even the slightest hint of a disadvantage in this game against MMA and in his games against MC is extremely unfortunate. Some of the most exciting games are comeback games and the fact that we will never see idra win from behind with this attitude is sad, to be honest.
I'm not the biggest idra fan myself but I think it's a disservice to those who are that he gg's so quickly.
I am a huge idra fan but I have to say that I am very disappointed in his mental strength. You have to keep playing and be positive, not everyone is perfect. You can't count out the possibility of the opponent doing a mistake when hes ahead. There is always a chance of the other guy fucking up!
Even if you don't have hope, atleast play a game that is ENTERTAINING FOR YOUR FANS AND ALSO YOUR OPPONENT'S FANS. This can be seen in the MC games where he tried roach ling all in 3 times in a row. at that point it seemed as if idra just gave up.
Idra, as fans we really support you and we know you have great decision making skills but ffs man, stop having the mentality that you can't win. as a fan, i'm hugely disappointed especially after idra's remarkable 1st day run on MLG.
Did Idra know that he had all of his drones at his natural right clicked on his nat extractor and that they didn't die to the drop? That could have been a huge factor in his bizarre GG.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
It would be the worst attempt at Match Fixing, ever.
I beg to differ, IdrA has almost anti-Fantasy gg timings so I don't think anyone would ever suspect if he pulls it off again, most people would go like "Oh another IdrA gg timing!" or something like that
All this I mean as a joke. I don't believe for a second that IdrA would ever try to fix his matches.
On June 06 2011 13:23 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: From PlayXP
Greg Field's "Cool Image" leave international fans "shocked"
Idra's "Cool image" carried through his games against OGsMC. After his games with MMA, he would GG after each of his attack failed and showed his "cool image"(?).
In the end Idra gave MC 4 games and ended up 4th.
MC outskilled idra during those 4-0 games...
you can't possibly be saying that idra lost four games INTENTIONALLY(correct me if im wrong).
-.-
Well, I don't want to take anything away from MC because he truly is the best P in the world but IdrA all-in'ed just because, no real thought behind it and from the "zerg isn't supposed to beat protoss" comment you can tell he was tilted, really tilted. Hell, even from the "2-0" comment I was able to tell that. And no, it isn't because I'm a fanboy or any of that sort, simple training in emotion and facial expressions will teach you that. So, the impression that IdrA gave away the first three matches is more accurate than what you'd like to believe.
Edit: Guy below me. They also played at DH invitational where Greg threw the second game with a 6-pool in Xel' Naga Caverns after botching game one in Metal, where some people argue he had an advantage.
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
How is MC his rival? theyve played each other in 2 series if you count MLG extended as one.
Idra is just really passive aggressive. "Well, zerg sucks... I might as well not even try cause the games' broken." Just like how he did the stupid allins against MC.
Idra acts confident but the truth is that he isn't
whenever he plays against a player he perceives as equally skilled or better than him, there is a very thin line between him playing to win and him finding a reason to leave the game
people should be familiar with these type of quotes from Idra
"I would have lost if player was good" "player played badly. I should have lost."
Idra has been known for this for a long time. In TSL 2 (BW) he accidentally canceled his command center building at his natural while it was getting harassed by a probe. He instantly gg'd. In the GSL against Jinro's bunker rush ramp block close positions on metalopolis, he GG's, didn't even try to break it. Against huk he had the game won and GG'd because of a bunch of hallucinated void rays. In this very MLG he GG'd against MC's cannon rush, he had his nat up and was able to make lings to counter mc's base but he just gg'd. These are major events, these are not games anyone should just be giving away.
Idra has no heart, no resilience, he rolls over and quits at the first sign of an uphill battle. If he were MMA he would have GG'd when he killed his own OC. I was a fan for a while, but I feel like Idra has become more of a spectacle than a competitor. He's good, but he acts like a 10 year old sometimes. He gives up when things get tough, he goes on tilt and whines when he looses, he gives people the finger, and that is why he is so popular. The most disappointing thing is he has so much skill and talent.
If Idra had a never say die attitude, was full of determination 100% of the time. Accepted his losses with dignity, he would probably be the most feared opponent in starcraft. But his attitude, approach to the game, and mental state are holding him back from dominating. I would love to see him change and reach his full potential, but after a few years of seeing this I think it may be deeply ingrained in who he is.
It was very strange but i find it hard to believe that idra would be this 'dispassionate' to throw games away. In gsl it seems like a lot of players will stay in a game thats over because they want so bad to win and idra is the opposite, even if hes behind why wouldnt he try to battle back? And artosis will say its because he doesnt want to deal with the mental stress and anger of that but still.. these ggs were just rediculous
ZvP is imbalanced deathball is so effective ZvT is imbalanced terran units are too cost effective ZvZ is a coinflip i lose to worse players sometimes
get over it, all races have their setbacks and mental challenges. A protoss player may feel that roaches are too cost effective, a terran may feel chargelots are too good and that infestors are OP.. ALL races have things they think are OP.
Idra just gets offended IN game when he loses battles etc and that is why he leaves early so often.. but other races feel the exact same in other matchups. It's 90% about the mentality and 10% about the actual game.
On June 06 2011 13:53 Zyzxx wrote: The idra (generic zerg) mentality:
ZvP is imbalanced deathball is so effective ZvT is imbalanced terran units are too cost effective ZvZ is a coinflip i lose to worse players sometimes
get over it, all races have their setbacks and mental challenges. A protoss player may feel that roaches are too cost effective, a terran may feel chargelots are too good and that infestors are OP.. ALL races have things they think are OP.
Idra just gets offended IN game when he loses battles etc and that is why he leaves early so often.. but other races feel the exact same in other matchups. It's 90% about the mentality and 10% about the actual game.
90% the game 10% the mentality*
it's why only the best koreans have high win rates against him ;p
On June 06 2011 13:52 rickybobby wrote: It was very strange but i find it hard to believe that idra would be this 'dispassionate' to throw games away. In gsl it seems like a lot of players will stay in a game thats over because they want so bad to win and idra is the opposite, even if hes behind why wouldnt he try to battle back? And artosis will say its because he doesnt want to deal with the mental stress and anger of that but still.. these ggs were just rediculous
I think idra explained it on inside the game last week.
HE 'respects' the opposing player to play optimally from that point on so he doesnt hope for mistakes and admits gg. (So if you're behind in early/mid game, you would stay behind... in a perfect scenario)
On June 06 2011 13:53 Zyzxx wrote: The idra (generic zerg) mentality:
ZvP is imbalanced deathball is so effective ZvT is imbalanced terran units are too cost effective ZvZ is a coinflip i lose to worse players sometimes
get over it, all races have their setbacks and mental challenges. A protoss player may feel that roaches are too cost effective, a terran may feel chargelots are too good and that infestors are OP.. ALL races have things they think are OP.
Idra just gets offended IN game when he loses battles etc and that is why he leaves early so often.. but other races feel the exact same in other matchups. It's 90% about the mentality and 10% about the actual game.
Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
MMA is spot on with his interview after beating Idra (lol), Idra needs to be positive. I'm sure in his head hes always thinking all the bad things that can happen to him if he loses this or that or what if he did this and it doesn't work blahblah...
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Ya, leaving games early is a feat of extremely high intelligence...
I realize IdrA is smart, but you're really pushing the definition of ultra-fanboy right now =/
As a spectator, it's sad to see any player leave the second they get a slight disadvantage. Imagine if every player left the second they felt slightly behind. The most "epic" games are always the ones where a player overcomes a huge deficit and steals a win.
For example, think of Nestea vs sC game 5 of the previous GSL. If Idra was in Nestea's place he probably would've left after losing his 3rd and we'd have just another generic "terran does a tank push and wins" style of game to watch.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Not sure what the point of this entire post was. We should applaud the fact that Idra has lost multiple games he should have won because he leaves too early? Somehow just staying in games 10 seconds longer would be a fault?
Why wait it out when you know the outcome? There is none i guess... but Idra DOESNT know the outcome, as we have obviously seen multiple times.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Ya, leaving games early is a feat of extremely high intelligence...
I realize IdrA is smart, but you're really pushing the definition of ultra-fanboy right now =/
I actually dislike IdrA on the whole, but I do admire his ability to know whether he has an advantage or not. So not a fanboy, I'd say.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe.
This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse.
It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
I think a better analogy would be, a player is racing towards the goal and he isn't near it, and he doesn't try to get back to the goal on time because he feels it's obvious that he can't and the player is going to score and he can't do anything about it.
On topic though, I have no idea what the koreans are talking about when they say the "cool image" more explanation on that?
On June 06 2011 14:03 DannyJ wrote: Why wait it out when you know the outcome? There is none i guess... but Idra DOESNT know the outcome, as we have obviously seen multiple times.
True enough. But, wouldn't you agree that trying to figure out the outcome based on the information available is pushing for perfection? Among many other things that need to be perfected, of course. I'd argue that in the games you're referring to it was his information gathering that was lacking, not his ability to predict.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
You seem a bit blinded by your fanboyism. Leaving during a winning battle where you're about to take out all siege tanks and still maintain a high muta count is never an appropriate situation. Take into consideration that he also had a fully saturated gold, a relatively high supply, and plenty of larvae to replenish his army. Even assuming "perfect play" would drag the game out very far -- this was not him foreseeing X moves ahead, it was him being self-defeating and rage quitting.
On June 06 2011 13:34 Inori wrote: I've got to point out the dialog they had with MC. "- Are you mad?" "- Ofc not, zerg isn't supposed to win vs protoss"
Really, Idra? After Nestea winning GSL? After you winning IPL? After such an awesome MLG run for Zerg and 2-0 MC in good macro games, you still whine about PvZ? Really?
All the people in these threads love to bring up wins as a fact of balance, but it isn't that easy even if every race won 1/3 of each tournament or if every race had a 50% win ratio perfectly. Balanced and winnable are two different sides of the coin.
Anyway, IdrA was on tilt and he says stuff like this all the time anyway.. IdrA has a mental imbalance and weakness which transfers over into his own self defeatist attitude and then he loses games because of it. It is called frustration and people take it way to seriously.
This article is a no brainer, Idra did this vs Huk because of void rays and now against MMA because he didn't scout the map or let the last battle play out before he left. He does it anytime he has a slight disadvantage because he feels that the opponent he is playing is a machine and incapable of making mistakes to allow him to catch up in a losing game. Either way, IdrA could of won this tournament if he played like he did on Friday, and I was sad to see old IdrA kill himself in this tournament.
Side note about balance: I'm sick of LR threads shitted up with imbalanced complaining from every side. All it does is make us "racist" and form into groups of players (Protoss, Zerg and Terran). We all play Starcraft II and we all have a ton to improve before we can even come close to complaining.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
The problem with this is that there is Fog of War and actual units and a human opponent on the other side. Humans make mistakes even if they "should" have X many units at this time. Not everyone plays optimally, not even IdrA. So instead of playing it out he actually loses the game to himself.
I actually have had this happen to me first hand.
I was a low to mid diamond player and someone from a clan that was mid to high masters was kind enough to give me a game on Tal'darim. Game progresses, I get ahead early with some decent mutalisk harass and I'm playing the game of my life. 4 base Zerg against 2 and a half base Terran. I have 30-40 apm more than normal. I can feel the high of adrenaline kicking in each battle and I surprise myself with how good I hold the first ledge push into my natural. I kill off the first wave with a flock of 20-25 mutas and ling/bane. Keep harassing as I'm saturated my 4th base, get two more macro hatches to keep up my ling numbers. The last push comes out and right as he seiges up and making his slow push I have my mutas magic boxed on his thors and my lings come in from all angles. I leave the game as all my lings melt and my mutas still magic boxing the thors.
In my head, the masters player just outmacroed me and I lost because I didn't have enough stuff to beat him. Then I go back to the replay again. Guess what, I had 10 more mutas on a different part of the map and 60 idle lings just sitting there at my natural while my other lings and mutas were dying in battle. I mentally gave up because I thought a master Terran could easily beat a mid to high diamond zerg. Instead of playing the game out and realizing how many lings I still had, I just quit because his race and skill was at another level than mine.
On June 06 2011 13:52 rickybobby wrote: It was very strange but i find it hard to believe that idra would be this 'dispassionate' to throw games away. In gsl it seems like a lot of players will stay in a game thats over because they want so bad to win and idra is the opposite, even if hes behind why wouldnt he try to battle back? And artosis will say its because he doesnt want to deal with the mental stress and anger of that but still.. these ggs were just rediculous
I think idra explained it on inside the game last week.
HE 'respects' the opposing player to play optimally from that point on so he doesnt hope for mistakes and admits gg. (So if you're behind in early/mid game, you would stay behind... in a perfect scenario)
I wish he played through his games though
obviously, idra doesn't respect himself then, cause in order to get in those positions in the first place it's because he didn't play optimally himself, it's because he himself made a mistake.
newsflash, people make mistakes no matter how good they are, thats kinda the point of the game.
if people are at the same skill level, they'll make the same number of mistakes. So by idra's logic, whoever makes the first big mistake loses, they should just quit the game. even though the other player might make a big blunder somewhere else along the line.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
No, no, no! What makes starcraft so great is that people CAN comeback! Sure it's cool that IdrA can realize in a vacuum (assuming all perfect play) that he's lost, but the fact of the matter is that he hadn't. One of my favorite games of all time was a PvT on paradoxx where boxer had this AMAZING comeback.
"Why wait it out when you know the outcome"
That's the problem, you can't know the outcome, you can't assume that a player is playing perfectly, a mark of a good player is someone who does his best to win at all costs.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
He still had 18 mutas, and he had enough bases that he could've reinforced. If anything, MMA was about to gg.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
You do realize that MMA had lost the big decisive fight in the middle right? He did not have enough marine to fend off the mutas and those tanks would of been free food. He is running on 2 bases almost out of mineral.
Knowing when you are defeated is a good thing like in chess where Grand master would quit knowing when they are defeated but clearly Idra misread this. How can you even compliment him about such ability after what Huk did to him with the halucinated void rays and now this?
TLDR: Idra on many bases and MMA on 2 base that is running out. Idra just needed to clean those tanks and fall back and deal with the drop and then stop MMA from securing a third and he wins. Obviously I am not trying to say that Idra had a clear advantage, but he had a pretty damn good chance to win and it was a foolish choice to gg so early.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
Idra clearly has the worst gg timing ever, it´s happened too often now. Someone close to Idra, an EG guy or something, needs to remove the g key from his keyboard.
On a serious note: They should convince Idra to never say gg, just play out every game untill he loses all his buildings or wins. Either that or he needs to work alot on his mental game, but people around him seem to have said that for a long time, because if this keeps going on I think it will be his downfall.
The hallucination gg against Huk was kind of funny but very tragic, the stupid all-in against MC in 2nd game at Stockholm dreamhack inv was clearly signs of his mentality issues, total meltdown vs MMA and vs MC he just seemed to have given up before he entered the booth. I´m seriously starting to wonder what´s wrong with him.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe.
This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse.
It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
Touche.
The point is, IdrA's brain and judgement is officially fucked. He's such a talented player but lacks the will, desire, or even hope required to be a truly great player.
He has the exact opposite of a never-say-die attitude.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
On June 06 2011 14:16 Gurgl wrote: Idra clearly has the worst gg timing ever, it´s happened too often now. Someone close to Idra, an EG guy or something, needs to remove the g key from his keyboard.
On a serious note: They should convince Idra to never say gg, just play out every game untill he loses all his buildings or wins. Either that or he needs to work alot on his mental game, but people around him seem to have said that for a long time, because if this keeps going on I think it will be his downfall.
The hallucination gg against Huk was kind of funny but very tragic, now I´m seriously starting to wonder what´s wrong with him.
I think as history has shown Idras G key isnt necessary when he leaves a game.
decided to translate some of the comments written in korean on the original playxp article :
Greg Fields : "fucking kimchi man!"
lollololol im gonna go crazy. what are both of them doing lololol
idra the cool guy who doesn't play losing games
cool guy idra
oh~ what ? what?
cool guy
what is this? giving up on winning games?
if you watch boxer's games, he still tries to defend and harass even when the game is over. of course he rarely makes a come back from such situations but when he does, it becomes a game to remember. i believe this is something idra needs to learn from boxer
not sure if this is because hes zerg but judging from how he instantly typed gg last time he got bunker rushed, i think hes trying to say zerg needs some buffs lolol
honestly it's funny to see him type to mc that protoss is too strong. everyone knows how good mc is and his gsl victories. greg just lacks skills
i watched this and almost died from laughing
it is up to the player to gg out when he feels he is at a disadvantage. but one thing is for sure. looks like its gonna be hard for him to gain popularity
greg thought he lost all his drones at his natural but they were actually all just sent to his gas
idra just go die
idra was always like this. remember i think it was in gsl season 3 when jinro bunker rushed him on metal. as soon as his ramp was blocked with bunkers he gged out. if it was ladder he probably woulda typed fucking bunker and left
if you look at him from greg's perspective, it kind of makes sense
i did not translate every single comment but that is most of it !
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
True. That's why players like Fantasy and Boxer only GG when their base is literally torn to the ground. And they're better players for it.
I think Idra judged pretty well. You have to consider that how can one expect someone to kill their CC? But anyways...
Like incontrol said, you would expect another army to be ready from MMA (which was not really true since he lost his third so he wasn't able to make any sizable force), and since it would be 3 base vs 3 base, and Idra only had Mutas left over, it would be GG.
Now, he had Mutas which can harass, but they can't do anything if you don't have bling and ling to mop things up. Mutas help pick off Tanks and harass but that's not going to do anything if you can't take out the Marines.
With those Mutas and his nat drones he could definitely have cleaned up that drop without losing too many Mutas though.
And thus I conclude that although Idra would definitely have been disadvantaged (especially if MMA did not kill his third), he should still have played out longer -- not because theres a really small chance someone will kill his own base, but because he wasn't THAT disadvantaged. While it's almost impossible someone will kill their own base, it's pretty likely your opponent will make a small positioning error or such.
All the people in these threads love to bring up wins as a fact of balance, but it isn't that easy even if every race won 1/3 of each tournament or if every race had a 50% win ratio perfectly. Balanced and winnable are two different sides of the coin.
People don't do that to show they're balanced -- they're using that logic against the people who try to bring up wins as a fact of imbalance, to show that those whiners can't say a matchup is imbalanced so easily.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
Sorry, but that bold sentence doesn't seem kinda nuts to you?
On June 06 2011 13:36 xza wrote: Even if you don't have hope, atleast play a game that is ENTERTAINING FOR YOUR FANS AND ALSO YOUR OPPONENT'S FANS.
That's your opinion as a spectator, he reserves every right to not care about it one bit. I played DotA before SC2 and there were a lot of people who had negative opinions about the trends of the games, especially during a period where the average game length exploded to about an hour to two hours of turtling. If professional teams had to take their fans into consideration they would be losing where they shouldn't. I'm quite aware it's easy to say herp derp but Idra didn't win lulz, but that's how he plays and that's how he has been playing for quite a long time. Whether or not he's lacking confidence is not a concern of mine, he makes his decisions completely on his own and doesn't give a crap about what other people think of him. I find that very much admirable.
To return to your original statement, I find very little entertainment in games where one part knows he has lost. While there are players who are either blissfully ignorant to the situation or are such ballers that take the opportunity to just do crazy stuff, Idra would look like a puppy shut out in the rain.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
16 mutas is more than a small amount.
Idra was definitely ahead, even if he traded those mutas for all the marines, he would have still been even due to a superior economy.
Here's the replay if anyone is interested. [url blocked]
For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe.
This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse.
It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
Even the BW legends make terrible, terrible mistakes. For example, Flash once let a Zerg put a Nydus in his base, and in BW you have to make a proxy hatch and hive tech for that! Savior famously forgot to upgrade the +attack speed upgrade for lings once. Idra's GG timing is just ridiculous. Not that I really blame him for doing it every once in a while, but it's starting to become routine.
(Garry Kasparov, one of the best chess players to ever live, once resigned a game where he could've forced a draw immediately. And in chess you can just look at the other guy's shit!!!)
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
Sorry, but that bold sentence doesn't seem kinda nuts to you?
I'll dare to fix that sentence on his behalf:
'IdrA left because he had WRONG information about what MMA had'
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
that is bs for idra though. i mean how can u assess the situation within 2 seconds and call gg? He must've saw his natural and it looked as if that drop killed all the drones, infact the drones were stacked in the gas geyser. prompting him to gg.
but even if MMA had another round of marines on the way he had sufficient bases to repel the attack. He didn't even play it out for the fans watching the match. Part of you playing is to win, but the other part is to atleast give an entertaining game for YOUR FANS.
buuuuuuuut ultimately why would you gg so soon when you can stand a chance. I mean a one in a million chance could happen like MMA misclicked into banelings or walked into burrowed banes. Why would you have the mentality of 'hes good, he must not be making mistakes'?
Despite all the problems Idra had on the third day, I was quite impressed that he was able to collect himself in the final game, and give a very strong showing.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe.
This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse.
It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
I'd argue it's incredibly arrogant to assume your opponent will never make mistakes firstly because it's completely stupid when you think about how life actually works. Nobody is perfect and you have to be completely naive to think that you can expect perfection from people all the time in a complicated task like SC2, even from the best.
But mostly it seems ridiculously arrogant because it indicates that Idra feels like it's not worth his time to play people that don't play perfectly, an indication that he feels that he should be included as one of those perfect players. Which is stupid when you consider the fact that the reason he's behind is because he made some mistake at some point.
Ultimately, I feel like Idra is not stupid enough to actually think that even the best pros play perfectly all the time, but it's instead a reflection of trying to seem perfect himself by saying that he only plays against inhuman, perfect gods of starcraft.
On June 06 2011 14:24 BaronFel wrote: For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
yup and along that line I would like to correct the mistranslation from the event
MMA never said anything about 'being positive'
This is what MMA actually said but lost in translation 'From this game, I hope Idra is able to learn some perseverance/fortitude'
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
Well duh, then Why did he leave when he didn't know what mma had? Why not find out? There is zero excuse for this, really.
Idra is becoming more and more mentally fragile the more tournaments I see. How many more games is he gonna premature gg? How many more times is he just gonna go majorly on tilt like in the series vs MC? He's his own worst enemy, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to see him as a major contender ;/ Maybe he needs to find a sports psychologist practice partner(hohoho).
Everyone makes mistakes, so you should never assume that disadvantages can't be overcome. And you can never make a comeback victory if you don't give yourself the chance. Some quit early when they think they're too disadvantaged and don't want to get angry or tilted but really they're going to be angry/tilted anyways and are probably better off taking a few minutes to make your opponent earn the win (even though you may fail to come back most of the time) and cool off a bit and come to terms with their loss rather than jumping straight into the next match while in a bad mental state.
On June 06 2011 14:33 Tachion wrote: Idra is becoming more and more mentally fragile the more tournaments I see. How many more games is he gonna premature gg? How many more times is he just gonna go majorly on tilt like in the series vs MC? He's his own worst enemy, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to see him as a major contender ;/ Maybe he needs to find a sports psychologist practice partner(hohoho).
someone was offering idra professional psychology lessons for $300/hr in the LR thread
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe.
This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse.
It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
I'd argue it's incredibly arrogant to assume your opponent will never make mistakes firstly because it's completely stupid when you think about how life actually works. Nobody is perfect and you have to be completely naive to think that you can expect perfection from people all the time in a complicated task like SC2, even from the best.
But mostly it seems ridiculously arrogant because it indicates that Idra feels like it's not worth his time to play people that don't play perfectly, an indication that he feels that he should be included as one of those perfect players. Which is stupid when you consider the fact that the reason he's behind is because he made some mistake at some point.
Ultimately, I feel like Idra is not stupid enough to actually think that even the best pros play perfectly all the time, but it's instead a reflection of trying to seem perfect himself by saying that he only plays against inhuman, perfect gods of starcraft.
How on earth does the fact that IdrA assumes his opponents won't make mistakes mean that he doesn't feel it's worth it to play people who are imperfect?
Idra clearly saw that MMA had a CC BUILDING at the gold during the final battle which makes it all the more confusing. If he didn't notice it... well that's just bad because it was 1 foot away from the marines he was focusing with mutas.
He doesn't play till the final whistle. That's always been Idra's problem and sadly it's leaked from his ladder play to matches that actually mean something in SC2. I'll be honest and say I root for his failure because I don't like his attitude towards his opponents and about himself. Saying that I was even feeling sorry for him with that GG to MMA.
You aren't a serious competitor if you don't play till the final whistle because ANY serious competitor knows that ANYTHING can happen and you play it out till you have no more moves to make or the clock runs out. Pressure is a powerful thing in competition and people make the silliest mistakes when put under it. Until Idra gets that mentality he'll continue to say woulda/coulda/shoulda. It's sad really.
I beleive it was on "Inside the Game" when they talked about GG timings. IdrA says that his bad habit of early GGs is because he expects his opponents to play the game out PERFECTLY. of course players do make mistakes (ahem inca v rainbow) but he says he expects them to play the game out without any.
of course... the other players are humans and not robots. but he doesn't realize that >_>
I just wish idra would play his games out, take a lesson from day9 and "never give up, never surrender." :/
After watching that on the livestream my jaw literally dropped and I just stared at the screen, moments earlier I was thinking wow idra is going to win mlg, he is looking way too solid, then it all just falls apart...
On June 06 2011 14:39 Blitz Beat wrote: I beleive it was on "Inside the Game" when they talked about GG timings. IdrA says that his bad habit of early GGs is because he expects his opponents to play the game out PERFECTLY. of course players do make mistakes (ahem inca v rainbow) but he says he expects them to play the game out without any.
of course... the other players are humans and not robots. but he doesn't realize that >_>
He obviously realizes it but I think that when his inner machine self makes a mistake or is behind in the game, he gets frustrated and doesn't want to play out a losing battle EVEN if he wins for some reason.
Idra really must stop this thing of giving up before he should, he will never be succesful enough if he keeps thinking this way, really. What does GL mean?? GOOD LUCK!! all champions must have it to become champions, is the factor that you cant control over the things you do, you cant give up on something you estimate you will lose just because your estimation is that, then why Idra does competes on MLG?? to not to win?? with that mindset he shouldnt be playing SC2 trying to be the best in the world, cuz its clear he will never become it thinking like that.
I can't decide whether the best bit about the video is MMA's reaction to IdrA leaving or Day[9] and Wheat's stunned silence for aaaages after the game.
Edit: Got it. The exact moment where Day[9] looks up from his screen with his mouth hanging open. Priceless.
On June 06 2011 14:47 Jacopana wrote: Idra really must stop this thing of giving up before he should, he will never be succesful enough if he keeps thinking this way, really. What does GL mean?? GOOD LUCK!! all champions must have it to become champions, is the factor that you cant control over the things you do, you cant give up on something you estimate you will lose just because your estimation is that, then why Idra does competes on MLG?? to not to win?? with that mindset he shouldnt be playing SC2 trying to be the best in the world, cuz its clear he will never become it thinking like that.
Yeah this actually... Avid fan but it's starting to hurt ones feelings when it feels like IdrA loses and gives up his games rather than his opponents purely outclassing or outplaying him... as a fan you just get sad after a while and don't want to get your hopes up to high
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
The answer to that question is idra has now lost two games in important tournaments, which he would have won, if he had not had this imaginary strength that you are claiming he has.
On June 06 2011 14:24 BaronFel wrote: For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
It already has been explained in this thread Z3kk if u read it.
On June 06 2011 14:47 Jacopana wrote: Idra really must stop this thing of giving up before he should, he will never be succesful enough if he keeps thinking this way, really. What does GL mean?? GOOD LUCK!! all champions must have it to become champions, is the factor that you cant control over the things you do, you cant give up on something you estimate you will lose just because your estimation is that, then why Idra does competes on MLG?? to not to win?? with that mindset he shouldnt be playing SC2 trying to be the best in the world, cuz its clear he will never become it thinking like that.
Yeah this actually... Avid fan but it's starting to hurt ones feelings when it feels like IdrA loses and gives up his games rather than his opponents purely outclassing or outplaying him... as a fan you just get sad after a while and don't want to get your hopes up to high
Yeah man, at this point, he is a StarCraft personality, he has tons of fans, and it hurts. Idra..... you have the worst GG timing!
On June 06 2011 14:24 BaronFel wrote: For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
It already has been explained in this thread Z3kk if u read it.
Sorry. Which page was it? I skimmed through all 6 pages, and didn't see it.
Whoops! Just ctrl+f "baron" on every page, and saw it on page 4. Sorry! I probably skipped it because it was a small comment under the flash picture
Thanks~
Edit: and also, I remember someone saying that it's important after the game has been clearly lost to stay in it for at least a little bit, and just calm yourself down. Not necessarily bad gg timing (i.e. draw it out excessively), but to just cool down, think for a bit, and then type out the gg. In Idra's case, it would have saved him the games, but that's sort of an exception; the point is that he really got mentally screwed over, and just pausing for a bit could have helped a lot! ><
On June 06 2011 13:33 jalstar wrote:IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
4 base (including one gold) vs 1 base (barely) with MMA having mined out his main and almost mined out his nat. Idra knows the third is not up and would know the timings on the main and nat. 71 drones vs 60 SCVs 16 muta and 18 lings vs 7 tanks and 20 rines.
All bar a few rines are all at home, Idra is going to kill all the tanks with muta and deny the third with lings. The drop at Idra's nat is nothing, 4 rines, and he has such an eco advantage the natural doesnt matter anyway. Idra has 16 lings and 5 Muta in production. Idra has resources banked, with the next round of inject larvae he's going to have a big army advantage.
Idra had the game won, and had enough info to know this. He just made a bad call, which just happens sometimes I guess, particularly under the high pressure of being on that sort of stage. It's a real shame, I'm a huge fan and I think he could have won the whole tournament.
god, why are there tournament seeds then, why are there rankings? in a perfect situation where everyone plays perfectly all the time, the number one guy always win. then why do we have tournaments greg, why don't we just hand out trophies and save ourselves the trouble of putting an event together? because shit happens, because things are not perfect, things have a way of going unexpectedly, for better or for worse. you've lost to worse players when you're ahead, that's why you no gg rage quit. well guess what, it happens to other people too...my god
I think he saw his expo with no drones (they were in the gas geyser), thinking he had lost them all to that drop--couple this with the fact that MMA took the gold (he didn't know it got destroyed), and he gg'd out. Of course he should have stayed after cleaning up those marines, he could have done substantial damage, but I think IdrA just gets mad and cbf playing at that point. He definitely needs to calm down, it's his biggest problem atm.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
The answer to that question is idra has now lost two games in important tournaments, which he would have won, if he had not had this imaginary strength that you are claiming he has.
Boy you just got owned.
No one can defend this action by IdrA. It's that simple. We can understand, but there is no empiric argument for it.
If you watch the GSL, Koreans always fight to the bitter end (especially fantasy), sad to say I've yet to see idra duking it out until every last fighting unit was eliminated. Please Idra you've got to get stronger
People make mistakes all the time and idra is well known for pre-emptive leaving games early even in brood war when he accidently cancelled his CC.. Even MMA made a mistake of killing his own CC.. so it kind of evens out fairly
idra gets a really boring player cause he leaves every game with disadvantage never have good gamers never have comebacks ... and often leave games where he is ahead ... in this style he wont win such tournaments
MMA prepared for IdrA and knows about the tendency to early GG.
Therefore, when he sees the mutas and realises his gold about to be discovered, he *deliberately* kills it and starts rebuilding it. MMA knows that IdrA will scout the command centre building and assume it's a 4th, when in fact it's a 3rd. He also empties his main army of marines and puts them into drops, implying he has these units to spare.
This changes IdrA's entire idea of where he is in the matchup, which was enough to tip him past the 'gg' point. It was a risky all-in strategy by MMA (because he didn't know how much of the rest of the map IdrA had scouted), and would not have worked against any other player.
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
saw gold CC being (re)built, didn't scout that that was the 3rd, thought that it was the 4th, thought he was wayyyyy behind with no forces, gg's out.
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
Yeah, MC was way more BM o.O
Honestly when MC said "idra are you angry" i dont think it was because he was trying to BM, i think he was really surprised that idra was just giving him games and playing kind of "angry" rushing him every game and then leaving right away, roach ling pressure isnt supposed to be all in you can transition out of it one of the games he even managed to kill quite a few probes one of the games and still left. When min was asked about the roach ling pressure build he said that its a pressure build and it isnt even really meant to kill the nexus just for pressure and then transition out of it something along those lines, of course if your opponent isnt prepared you can defenetly win with it as well.
In contrast when we saw losira do something similair against MC he would use it for pressure then drop a third, it honestly seemed like idra was angry by the way he was playing and then giving up so fast.
On June 06 2011 15:18 ilmman wrote: People make mistakes all the time and idra is well known for pre-emptive leaving games early even in brood war when he accidently cancelled his CC.. Even MMA made a mistake of killing his own CC.. so it kind of evens out fairly
No really. Killing your own command center just puts you behind, leaving a game where you are clearly ahead denies you a better salary.
On June 06 2011 15:18 ilmman wrote: People make mistakes all the time and idra is well known for pre-emptive leaving games early even in brood war when he accidently cancelled his CC.. Even MMA made a mistake of killing his own CC.. so it kind of evens out fairly
The difference is MMA didnt leave the game after he killed his own CC, and then he went on to win the tournament and 5000 bucks
On June 06 2011 14:24 BaronFel wrote: For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
It already has been explained in this thread Z3kk if u read it.
Sorry. Which page was it? I skimmed through all 6 pages, and didn't see it.
Whoops! Just ctrl+f "baron" on every page, and saw it on page 4. Sorry! I probably skipped it because it was a small comment under the flash picture
Instead of pressing the next button you can press the "all" button to view all the comments on the same page instead of swapping pages. Just sayin
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
saw gold CC being (re)built, didn't scout that that was the 3rd, thought that it was the 4th, thought he was wayyyyy behind with no forces, gg's out.
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
Yeah, MC was way more BM o.O
Honestly when MC said "idra are you angry" i dont think it was because he was trying to BM, i think he was really surprised that idra was just giving him games and playing kind of "angry" rushing him every game and then leaving right away, roach ling pressure isnt supposed to be all in you can transition out of it one of the games he even managed to kill quite a few probes one of the games and still left. When min was asked about the roach ling pressure build he said that its a pressure build and it isnt even really meant to kill the nexus just for pressure and then transition out of it something along those lines, of course if your opponent isnt prepared you can defenetly win with it as well.
In contrast when we saw losira do something similair against MC he would use it for pressure then drop a third, it honestly seemed like idra was angry by the way he was playing and then giving up so fast.
that's possible, but remember, MC is a friend of huk.
On June 06 2011 15:20 Paradice wrote: MMA prepared for IdrA and knows about the tendency to early GG.
Therefore, when he sees the mutas and realises his gold about to be discovered, he *deliberately* kills it and starts rebuilding it. MMA knows that IdrA will scout the command centre building and assume it's a 4th, when in fact it's a 3rd. He also empties his main army of marines and puts them into drops, implying he has these units to spare.
This changes IdrA's entire idea of where he is in the matchup, which was enough to tip him past the 'gg' point. It was a risky all-in strategy by MMA (because he didn't know how much of the rest of the map IdrA had scouted), and would not have worked against any other player.
MMA then finishes him off with a hadouken.
if you are not trolling you along with the guy who said he threw the game for the growth of e-sports have to be 2 of the stupidest people I have encountered in awhile
On June 06 2011 15:27 cheesemaster wrote: [The difference is MMA didnt leave the game after he killed his own CC, and then he went on to win the tournament and 5000 bucks
I watched the replay from first person view and.. 1) He only looked at his natural to send drones to gas but did not look at his natural after that. 2) He sees the new gold CC going up in his vision 3) He never saw the original gold CC. He did see a refinery there however.
Well after watching the replay on IdrA-cam the entire way through, there's some important things to note
1. He never scouted those really early CC's, so he didn't have any reason to think that was MMA's 4th.
2. He clearly saw that his mutas had the army in the middle basically cleaned up. All the marines were dead, and the turret next to the constructing CC + 4 tanks was nearly dead. IdrA was about to get 5 tanks basically for free.
3. He did move all the drones at the natural into the one gas geyser (very few of which died). He never looked at the area again, so it's hard to say how much value that held in his mind to leave without knowing how many drones actually remained.
4. This is probably the most important one, and might be one of the big reasons he gg'd. At the end of the game, he had 16 lings and 5 mutas under production. However, after those, he had a mere 2 larva remaining, and absolutely ZERO larva injects in progress (total of 5 hatcheries). Most of the remaining seconds before the gg he had the hatcheries selected, and almost felt like he was waiting for more larva to pop, which never really happened.
Now, I'm not saying he shouldn't have gg'd, but there's a bit of misinformation and uninformed people around. I would guess that he thought with MMA's reinforcements (that would have been inevitable) he would not have been able to hold it with so few lings or banes. Or something.
I am a huge idra fan, the only player I like more than Idra is Nestea and I ahve to say I am very disheartened by him leaving that game vs MMA. I really think he could've won that, then had a very good chance at beating MMA and being guranteed 1st or 2nd place, most likely not having to play MC, and ending up much better than he did. I was really hoping he had learned from the huk incident, but apaprently he hasn't quite yet ♥ Idra, I really hope he learns and fixes his attitude, I think with the right attitude he could easily be the best player in the world.
On June 06 2011 15:52 hunts wrote: I am a huge idra fan, the only player I like more than Idra is Nestea and I ahve to say I am very disheartened by him leaving that game vs MMA. I really think he could've won that, then had a very good chance at beating MMA and being guranteed 1st or 2nd place, most likely not having to play MC, and ending up much better than he did. I was really hoping he had learned from the huk incident, but apaprently he hasn't quite yet ♥ Idra, I really hope he learns and fixes his attitude, I think with the right attitude he could easily be the best player in the world.
this ... the famous HuK you weren't loss game was really funny
this game today was ... sad... and then the meltdown against MC just made it worse... I guarantee Idra advances if he plays more straight up against MC
Idra probably has top 5 talent in the world ... I have got to believe if he gets the right mentality he will start dominating like he did early on in the tourney
On June 06 2011 15:52 hunts wrote: I am a huge idra fan, the only player I like more than Idra is Nestea and I ahve to say I am very disheartened by him leaving that game vs MMA. I really think he could've won that, then had a very good chance at beating MMA and being guranteed 1st or 2nd place, most likely not having to play MC, and ending up much better than he did. I was really hoping he had learned from the huk incident, but apaprently he hasn't quite yet ♥ Idra, I really hope he learns and fixes his attitude, I think with the right attitude he could easily be the best player in the world.
this ... the famous HuK you weren't loss game was really funny
this game today was ... sad... and then the meltdown against MC just made it worse... I guarantee Idra advances if he plays more straight up against MC
Idra probably has top 5 talent in the world ... I have got to believe if he gets the right mentality he will start dominating like he did early on in the tourney
Ya, if idra plays 4 macro games I think people would say it's reasonable that he can take 2 off MC...he did it just the day before. It has to be from him tilting from previous series or something. It doesn't make sense to not be confident in your macro judging by how his MLG was going until then. I personally didn't think this case of early GGs was funny at all, it was sad seeing that opportunity thrown away.
On June 06 2011 13:23 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: From PlayXP
Greg Field's "Cool Image" leave international fans "shocked"
Idra's "Cool image" carried through his games against OGsMC. After his games with MMA, he would GG after each of his attack failed and showed his "cool image"(?).
In the end Idra gave MC 4 games and ended up 4th.
MC outskilled idra during those 4-0 games...
you can't possibly be saying that idra lost four games INTENTIONALLY(correct me if im wrong).
-.-
Then I'll say it, he intentionally lost those games, maybe he can trick himself into thinking it wasn't intentional but quite honestly he just got done throwing games away to MMA because after the first day some switch was tripped with Idra.
The reason I say this is because Idra was playing like a man possessed on the first day, he had great games with MC, and showcased BRILLIANCE, then he stomped on the rest of his opponents. Had the Idra from MLG Columbus day one showed up to day two and three, the discussion would probably be why Zerg is overpowered now.
Now back to what I was saying, Idra had a switch flipped somewhere, whether it was the loss to Thorzain, or maybe he finally had something to fight for and figured he was gonna lose because he didn't wanna play bad or whatever. I honestly feel that two different Idra's showed up to MLG Columbus, the EG.Idra, and the Korean Idra, the EG.Idra was Day One, the Korean Idra Day Two and most notably Day Three.
Now I don't know what triggered it, but if he can get past the issue where he goes on a form of Tilt that can't be undone, I suspect EG.Idra could become the first Bonjwa of Starcraft 2, case and point his first days games.
i foresee a jinro style fall from grace for idra. like jinro a couple months ago, idra has been on the cusp of breaking through to the very top for a while now, but he realizes he can't get there by doing what he is doing. so he is starting to change it up, but like jinro, when you change it up you lose your identity, and have to try to remake yourself or find it again. it is kinda like tiger woods, he tries to be too technical with his driver that he overthinks the game, he doesn't just go out there and play golf, idra gotta just gotta go out there and play sc2
I entirely agree, when he lost to MMA I almost convinced itself it was intentional to dodge playing ZvZ, which he believes is a coin flip match up... against Losira, I also wondered if he literally just wanted to beat MC again, but this is really disappointing, I hope he gives us an explanation.
I have been supportive of his (and zerg in general) imbalance whine to a degree but I have to say idra's behavior this weekend is poisonous for e-sports. It's like he only wants to play a game where he gets advantage and drag that advantage for 30 minutes for his macro pleasure. Extremely narcissist yet fragile. More and more I think this kid has an issue.
ZvP doesn't look that imbalanced any more, either. Everyone in Korea agrees the 20-second delay in warp gate research was a huge help. (How many times do you see 4-gate in ZvP any more?) Z is more secure than ever against P in early game and it looks like all races have almost equal chance of winning on majority of the maps.
If things like this happen again I will stop watching his games in the future.
IdrA's teammates need to sit down with him and force him to play every game from now on through to the very end, up until his last building is destroyed, while blasting inspirational Pokemon songs into his ears.
Because, I swear, at this rate, the only thing that's holding him back is himself.
On June 06 2011 16:15 fartdra wrote: i foresee a jinro style fall from grace for idra. like jinro a couple months ago, idra has been on the cusp of breaking through to the very top for a while now, but he realizes he can't get there by doing what he is doing. so he is starting to change it up, but like jinro, when you change it up you lose your identity, and have to try to remake yourself or find it again. it is kinda like tiger woods, he tries to be too technical with his driver that he overthinks the game, he doesn't just go out there and play golf, idra gotta just gotta go out there and play sc2
no not going to happen
difference is Jinro has to face the best Koreans every day
Idra is going to be facing them sparingly and about 75% of the time facing players frankly he should easily win against
On June 06 2011 15:48 Clog wrote: Well after watching the replay on IdrA-cam the entire way through, there's some important things to note
1. He never scouted those really early CC's, so he didn't have any reason to think that was MMA's 4th.
2. He clearly saw that his mutas had the army in the middle basically cleaned up. All the marines were dead, and the turret next to the constructing CC + 4 tanks was nearly dead. IdrA was about to get 5 tanks basically for free.
3. He did move all the drones at the natural into the one gas geyser (very few of which died). He never looked at the area again, so it's hard to say how much value that held in his mind to leave without knowing how many drones actually remained.
4. This is probably the most important one, and might be one of the big reasons he gg'd. At the end of the game, he had 16 lings and 5 mutas under production. However, after those, he had a mere 2 larva remaining, and absolutely ZERO larva injects in progress (total of 5 hatcheries). Most of the remaining seconds before the gg he had the hatcheries selected, and almost felt like he was waiting for more larva to pop, which never really happened.
Now, I'm not saying he shouldn't have gg'd, but there's a bit of misinformation and uninformed people around. I would guess that he thought with MMA's reinforcements (that would have been inevitable) he would not have been able to hold it with so few lings or banes. Or something.
I'm seriously feeling the pain on Idras behalf on that 4th point. When there's so much action going on, waiting for the larva pop that, probably, has been forgotten to be injected must be such a hard mental blow for Idra. Forgetting such an elementary thing. My guess is that this in combination with believing his drones were dead is what made him think he would lose this game.
On June 06 2011 14:24 BaronFel wrote: For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
yup and along that line I would like to correct the mistranslation from the event
MMA never said anything about 'being positive'
This is what MMA actually said but lost in translation 'From this game, I hope Idra is able to learn some perseverance/fortitude'
Idra's mentality is completely messed up he needs some serious sports psychology counseling or he will never reach his potential. Whenever he is in a tough spot he acts as if his opponents will play a perfect game from that point on. The exact opposite of a champion's mindset...
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Mirrors my thoughts exactly. Extremely sad, because he showcased some excellent play this weekend, only to let himself down so hard.
On June 06 2011 16:33 Ciddass wrote: idra is just afraid of giving 110% and afraid of being dominated while fighting for his life.
pretty uncool :S
Yeah, I think that's about it.
It's really disheartening to see a player with such large emotional issues that he's too ashamed to try his best. It's the same reason that he doesn't take responsibility for his performance in tournaments. He would rather blame imbalance, cheese or "improper play" so he doesn't have to face the shame of having lost due to his own deficiencies. Got to feel bad for the guy.
I remember hearing him say on SoTG that he "should" be the one winning everything because he spent so many years practicing 12 hours a day in Korea. It felt bad to hear that, because he's still the only one who doesn't realize that as long as he attributes his losses to "unfairness" rather than improving the bumps in HIS play, it doesn't matter if he practices 20 hours a day.
I agree with most people here.. Idra started off the tournament with some awesome uncharacteristic Idra awesomeness... I've never supported him in his blatant naging about imbalance and what not and he never really seemed to understand that if he dared to change some things about his own play style that idea might fall out of place by itself...
Yet the attitude still remained and even though he played better, surprisingly, his biggest enemy is still his own mind. Playing mind games on himself and judging situations by default, in blind sight, based on probability and crude assumption... THAT is what lost him his game against MMA.
... Though... It did give us some of the most stunning, and legendary SC2 pictures yet .. And this I am utterly thankful of. Man was I flabbergasted... and man was that an historic epic fail!
I didn't get to catch this series, but seeing this thread, reading the article, and watching the video gave a serious" wtf IdrA...". IdrA really needs to fix his mindset, but things like that is hard. It's hard for some people to admit their faults and to change themselves. iNcontroL has talked about this many times on SotG and if IdrA can get over this problem, then he can obviously stop situations like this from happening.
I can see all VODs on MLG but i cannot find the IdrA vs MC from day3? Anyone has a link or something for that? I just want to look again maybe i can understand more what happened.
On June 06 2011 17:42 zoLo wrote: I didn't get to catch this series, but seeing this thread, reading the article, and watching the video gave a serious" wtf IdrA...". IdrA really needs to fix his mindset, but things like that is hard. It's hard for some people to admit their faults and to change themselves. iNcontroL has talked about this many times on SotG and if IdrA can get over this problem, then he can obviously stop situations like this from happening.
What IdrA needs to do is learn how to play from behind. He doesn't accept the challenge of playing from behind or being the underdog, which is absolutely critical when trying to master a sport.
In fact, being able to come back and thrive in disadvantageous situation is what defines greatness. If you've ever seen Kobe Bryant take over a game after his team is down 20 points, or take a clutch shot to tie a game, you know what I'm talking about.
I remember a classic game where Tracy McGrady single-handledly scored 13 points in the last minute of a game to lead his team to victory by a couple of points.
IdrA's lack of perseverance or 'never say die' also impacts the overall development of his game, particularly his ability to create and be innovative. Most people don't develop new strategies or tactics until they're put in a situation where they are forced to create something from nothing. IdrA's problem is that he avoids those situations entirely, especially against the kind high quality opponents that he needs to compete against.
His attitude is probably hampering his growth in ways he hasn't even realized yet.
if Idra lost as many drones to a reaper like losira did in last match vs MMA he would have GGed, Losira showing that its pretty much winnable, think he had the game until last moment, take a look at that game idra!!!!
On June 06 2011 18:00 zQk wrote: I think Idra lost 'cause he didn't want to play against a zerg (IMLosira) and try to reach the final by the loser bracket.
This is interesting but if idra were to throw a series I don't think he'd throw it like that. Idra definitely has some mental problems he should get straightened out. He played awesome day 1 but there was no way he was on his A game against mma and mc today.
I notice he plays worse against people on ladder who get into his head (minigun). He can't control balance of the game. Nestea is doing better at sc2 than him and he's had better results. Blizzard's not going to balance the game based on his rants.
I'd love it if he was able to be more calm and nonjudgmental. At least try it for a month. I think it'd really help him play better and winning is more important then holding onto your old belief system. I know he's said he's done better at tournaments when he practices less and ladders more and I think it's because he doesn't get into that old self destructive mindset.
On June 06 2011 18:00 zQk wrote: I think Idra lost 'cause he didn't want to play against a zerg (IMLosira) and try to reach the final by the loser bracket.
Yeah that makes sense...
... except he would always have to beat losira. If he drops to the loser bracket and beats everyone he would either have to play losira in the losers bracket final or the actual final.
He didn't do this on purpose. He is just afraid to be outplayed to the point that he'll GG at the first sign of being even slightly behind. The worst thing about it is that he doesn't even bother checking if he actually is behind.
If he'd stayed in that game vs mma and played the series out without tilting he would probably have been a zvz away from winning the whole damn thing. But hey, the man can't risk playing out a game where he might be slightly behind (even if the game is actually pretty much won)... that would just be embarrasing.
I agree mostly with most of the previous posts in this thread, but I have some thoughts on the matter. Idra was right to gg every 4 of the controversial games (1x MMa, 3x MC), when he gg'ed the outlook for him was grimm at best. Now there are a few questions that come to mind:
- Why did idra choose to do the roach-ling all in's against MC in the extented series? And why didn't he do them in game 1 and 2?
-Why does idra give his opponents so much respect? When you are behind you will lose, given that your opponent plays perfectly. Thus when idra leaves when he is behind, he assumes his opponent will play perfectly. This assumption is clearly wrong e.g. the MMA game.
On June 06 2011 18:29 brozor wrote: I agree mostly with most of the previous posts in this thread, but I have some thoughts on the matter. Idra was right to gg every 4 of the controversial games (1x MMa, 3x MC), when he gg'ed the outlook for him was grimm at best. Now there are a few questions that come to mind:
- Why did idra choose to do the roach-ling all in's against MC in the extented series? And why didn't he do them in game 1 and 2?
-Why does idra give his opponents so much respect? When you are behind you will lose, given that your opponent plays perfectly. Thus when idra leaves when he is behind, he assumes his opponent will play perfectly. This assumption is clearly wrong e.g. the MMA game.
lol i kinda feel he's just saving up for major tournaments or just goofing off a bit (which is strange, since he has such a serious demeanor)
Idra's mental condition is a complete disaster. He continuesly defeats himself before even getting in the booth. The EG team really needs to give him mental support, if they expect him to win anything. He has no fighting spirit whatsoever. It's disheartening to see someone fall victim to his own mentality.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
That's exactly the point though. Idra DIDN'T KNOW, so he shouldn't leave an important game based upon an assumption. He could just have stayed in the game, sent an overseer around to find out what MMA actually had, and then leave, or in this case, stay.
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
saw gold CC being (re)built, didn't scout that that was the 3rd, thought that it was the 4th, thought he was wayyyyy behind with no forces, gg's out.
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
Yeah, MC was way more BM o.O
You're conveniently forgetting Idra's "zerg isn't meant to beat protoss" in the 3rd game vs. MC. He's not only indicating that he's pissed as everyone assumed anyway, but also implying that MC's wins aren't legit, which is very unsportsmanlike and definitely not professional. Doesn't even matter if there is any truth to his statement - you agree to the rules as you enter the game. You can't take your victories but question the game when losing.
I'm not even hating Idra at all, but we should try to be honest here.
The prize pool was far from spectacular, even assuming he won the entire tournament Greg honestly gains more from controversy/media over bowing out of the game arguably preemptively. He is clearly an extremely intelligent and calculating character, plus he sure as shit did not have the game 'won' even though MMA couldn't tell the difference between rocks and a cc.
All in all it's a lot of fuss over pretty standard stuff for IdrA, really.
He will never be best zerg in the world if he keeps doing this. Just look at players like losira/nestea/july - all of them fighting until the very end, and that wins the games.
It feels like idra does not care about winning at all, or his mental state is extremelly weak.
You cannon rush him, he insta "ggs", he loose several mutas, he "ggs", he loose expansion - "gg". You never going to be great player with such attitude.
Imo in a tal darim game he wasn't lost at all. 3 pylons & few cannons is huge investiment for protoss. He could have just put a baneling nest, make 5 banelings and bust 600 resources in 2 seconds. I don't say he wasn't in a disadvantage, but he is playing in a huge tournament after all, so make everything you can to win.
It is so sad what is happening with Idra. He is without a doubt the most talented sc2 foreigner, but he needs a head doctor to set his issues straight. Maybe having a girlfriend will help him one way or another.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
this.
The number of people swinging by IdrA's nutsack is mindboggling. Do you know what 16 mutas can do in terms of counter attacks? If MMA had tried to push forward his economy would have been destroyed by rampaging mutas, while lings rallied from 4 hatches can do a decent job of whittling down the immediate attack. At the most IdrA would have lost one mining base, but MMA would have fell so far behind IdrA , that it would be impossible to win from that point. A player like July or NesTea would have played out the game till the attack reached his main and took out his production facilities.
On June 06 2011 13:53 Zyzxx wrote: The idra (generic zerg) mentality:
ZvP is imbalanced deathball is so effective ZvT is imbalanced terran units are too cost effective ZvZ is a coinflip i lose to worse players sometimes
get over it, all races have their setbacks and mental challenges. A protoss player may feel that roaches are too cost effective, a terran may feel chargelots are too good and that infestors are OP.. ALL races have things they think are OP.
Idra just gets offended IN game when he loses battles etc and that is why he leaves early so often.. but other races feel the exact same in other matchups. It's 90% about the mentality and 10% about the actual game.
90% the game 10% the mentality*
it's why only the best koreans have high win rates against him ;p
no they are just way better than him, he is delusional about his skill level (like most of his fanboys in here) even if the bs what he keeps saying " zerg isn't supposed to win vs protoss" that didnt have anything to do with his losses, hes just way belove mc in terms of skill
On June 06 2011 18:56 cryL wrote: The prize pool was far from spectacular, even assuming he won the entire tournament Greg honestly gains more from controversy/media over bowing out of the game arguably preemptively. He is clearly an extremely intelligent and calculating character, plus he sure as shit did not have the game 'won' even though MMA couldn't tell the difference between rocks and a cc.
All in all it's a lot of fuss over pretty standard stuff for IdrA, really.
If Idra had won MLG he would have been the undisputed foreign hero, you honestly think he gains more from this?
it dosnt fken matter, he still makes bank at the end of the day and had a great time going there and meeting people. what idra did is only good for the community if you pay attention to the reaction it brought.
On June 06 2011 18:56 cryL wrote: The prize pool was far from spectacular, even assuming he won the entire tournament Greg honestly gains more from controversy/media over bowing out of the game arguably preemptively. He is clearly an extremely intelligent and calculating character, plus he sure as shit did not have the game 'won' even though MMA couldn't tell the difference between rocks and a cc.
All in all it's a lot of fuss over pretty standard stuff for IdrA, really.
If Idra had won MLG he would have been the undisputed foreign hero, you honestly think he gains more from this?
Am I reading this right that people are claiming he lost on purpose? That's the worst thing I've ever read. Sorry, but Idra and every single top player wants to be the 'best.' In fact, pretty sure every foreigner would love to best the Koreans and be crowned best in world.
Stop trying to deduce cleverly thought-out plans on Idras behalf why this happened. You honestly think, when he was in the booth he thought; "oh yeah i can hype myself and make an outcry if i just gg now, better do it - besides its a laughable prizepool". really? reeeaally?
It was an irrational mistake. A sad - then funny one, but nothing more. Idra really has shown mortality since D.C though.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
this.
Idra had far more then "a few mutas" and 4 bases all running fine and an infestation pit that was up. Plus he was going to clear out all of MMA's tanks. He was very far from being dead, and I trust my eyes as well as MMA's and Day9's judgement more than yours.
I feel really, really sorry for Idra. He played SO WELL on the first day and then after that it all went downhill. MC pushed his buttons perfectly which made Idra more angry meaning his play wasn't as good. He deserved to get further than he did, MC just took advantage of what was presented to him.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
but he clearly saw the gold base was still building and mining long-distance...
On June 06 2011 18:29 brozor wrote: I agree mostly with most of the previous posts in this thread, but I have some thoughts on the matter. Idra was right to gg every 4 of the controversial games (1x MMa, 3x MC), when he gg'ed the outlook for him was grimm at best. Now there are a few questions that come to mind:
- Why did idra choose to do the roach-ling all in's against MC in the extented series? And why didn't he do them in game 1 and 2?
-Why does idra give his opponents so much respect? When you are behind you will lose, given that your opponent plays perfectly. Thus when idra leaves when he is behind, he assumes his opponent will play perfectly. This assumption is clearly wrong e.g. the MMA game.
lol i kinda feel he's just saving up for major tournaments or just goofing off a bit (which is strange, since he has such a serious demeanor)
Don't you think MLG is a major tounament? I mean is Idra rich enough to throw away 1k. 1st Place $5,000 2nd Place $3,000 3rd Place $2,000 4th Place $1,400
Hmmm, I got no idea what he was thinking there. I'd love to hear his thoughts on the next SotG or ITG or ... whatever. Day 1 he seemed invincible. Sharp, collected, cool, on top of things, relaxed (as "not nervous") and very very determined. Day 2, his game vs. Thorazine seemed like he didn't care. Can't blame him for that. He had already secured 1st spot in his pool, but I kinda feel that attitude carried over in him in Day 3. Day 3, I was expecting him to demolish MMA. And it did looked like that will happen, specially after MMA killed his Gold expo CC in such beautiful manner. That drop by MMA took out a Spine Crawler, a Queen and a couple of drones. Yeah, the Mutas count was significantly lowered, but he had the economy to insta-re-max with Lings/Blings/Infestors and just roll him over. No idea why he "gg"-ed. Even watching the replay from his POV, you still can see that he's ahead. MMA had like 1 and a half mining base, he was long distance mining from the Gold and he had little to none tanks left. That's basically Lings/Blings heaven IMO. No clue what he saw in that game to make him "gg". Or maybe what he didn't saw ? Game 2 was going by the book for Idra - stopping the early aggression easly and then securing the expo and getting good saturation. Thing is, that build was sort of all-in-ish. He should've identified that and put more then 1 Spine Crawler. After one failed all-in, it's very very likely that you'll get another one shortly afterwards. So why not reacting as safe as possible ? 3-5 Spine Crawlers wouldn't have put Idra in disadvantage, coz he could've easly later on, pushed up his creep and moved them around wherever he liked. Like to defend the 3rd or to close off the choke around the upper Xel'Naga Tower. Instead he went to be super greedy and did lost that game properly. My guess is that it all comes back to that heartless game vs. Thorzain in the pool. Idra's ZvT is one of the best out there and he just allowed to be rolled over. And from there on, it just carried on and turned out into a big humiliation. The games vs. MC were just plain awful. 3 badly shaped all-ins and only when he was on the ropes, he actually started to play the way we all know he can. And he did lost that 4th game barely. If he did that sort of play in all the other games, he could've easly grab the 2 wins needed before MC could make it to 4. Easy ! Well, I guess I'll be waiting for SotG or ITG to hear his thoughts. Shame such a great player performed so poorly. I've seen Golden level Zergs handle in-game crysis better then him Not happy.
On June 06 2011 20:03 speedphlux wrote: Hmmm, I got no idea what he was thinking there. I'd love to hear his thoughts on the next SotG or ITG or ... whatever. Day 1 he seemed invincible. Sharp, collected, cool, on top of things, relaxed (as "not nervous") and very very determined. Day 2, his game vs. Thorazine seemed like he didn't care. Can't blame him for that. He had already secured 1st spot in his pool, but I kinda feel that attitude carried over in him in Day 3. Day 3, I was expecting him to demolish MMA. And it did looked like that will happen, specially after MMA killed his Gold expo CC in such beautiful manner. That drop by MMA took out a Spine Crawler, a Queen and a couple of drones. Yeah, the Mutas count was significantly lowered, but he had the economy to insta-re-max with Lings/Blings/Infestors and just roll him over. No idea why he "gg"-ed. Even watching the replay from his POV, you still can see that he's ahead. MMA had like 1 and a half mining base, he was long distance mining from the Gold and he had little to none tanks left. That's basically Lings/Blings heaven IMO. No clue what he saw in that game to make him "gg". Or maybe what he didn't saw ? Game 2 was going by the book for Idra - stopping the early aggression easly and then securing the expo and getting good saturation. Thing is, that build was sort of all-in-ish. He should've identified that and put more then 1 Spine Crawler. After one failed all-in, it's very very likely that you'll get another one shortly afterwards. So why not reacting as safe as possible ? 3-5 Spine Crawlers wouldn't have put Idra in disadvantage, coz he could've easly later on, pushed up his creep and moved them around wherever he liked. Like to defend the 3rd or to close off the choke around the upper Xel'Naga Tower. Instead he went to be super greedy and did lost that game properly. My guess is that it all comes back to that heartless game vs. Thorzain in the pool. Idra's ZvT is one of the best out there and he just allowed to be rolled over. And from there on, it just carried on and turned out into a big humiliation. The games vs. MC were just plain awful. 3 badly shaped all-ins and only when he was on the ropes, he actually started to play the way we all know he can. And he did lost that 4th game barely. If he did that sort of play in all the other games, he could've easly grab the 2 wins needed before MC could make it to 4. Easy ! Well, I guess I'll be waiting for SotG or ITG to hear his thoughts. Shame such a great player performed so poorly. I've seen Golden level Zergs handle in-game crysis better then him Not happy.
Mmmm. Was wondering about that. Didn't get to see the Thorzain matches, and was under the impression idra was fighting those, but I guess that apathy and overconfidence from the 1st day really set him behind. Thanks!
Honestly as a four base zerg, I wouldn't quit unless I didn't connect with any of the marines. Idra just lost a few mutas, and even if mma was taking a fourth and had reinforcements, idra definitely had a chance. The games against MC I can see why he gg'ed, since he didn't do any damage at all, turning a pressure into a failed all-in. He has a self-defeating attitude, but then again he is a smart guy, and DJ wheat talks about his ability to predict what happens in other people's games when casting, so his early gg's probably reflect his game knowledge, and the fact that he can't win no matter what and to not waste his time. The MMA fiasco is just an instance where his judgment was horribly, terribly wrong. It's such a shame because Idra played against MMA much better than Losira in that game, and definitely had a chance to win with his stellar ZvT. *le sigh*
On June 06 2011 13:27 Elite__ wrote: does anyone know the specific reason why idra left? i remember reading someone saying that he thought mma killed all the drones at his expo, but they were actually all clumped up at the gas and thats why he left
saw gold CC being (re)built, didn't scout that that was the 3rd, thought that it was the 4th, thought he was wayyyyy behind with no forces, gg's out.
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
Yeah, MC was way more BM o.O
You're conveniently forgetting Idra's "zerg isn't meant to beat protoss" in the 3rd game vs. MC. He's not only indicating that he's pissed as everyone assumed anyway, but also implying that MC's wins aren't legit, which is very unsportsmanlike and definitely not professional. Doesn't even matter if there is any truth to his statement - you agree to the rules as you enter the game. You can't take your victories but question the game when losing.
I'm not even hating Idra at all, but we should try to be honest here.
I think you are being unfair,Idra didn't say that out of the blue. MC ask "are u angry ?" at the start in the 3rd game and that's just rude after beating him 2 games in row. Idra response was IMO a bit fun, regardless its shouldn't be taken serious given to contrast and its wasn't out of line or bm in any way. Idra was well manner and gg in every game, to bitch and say he was unsportsmanlike and not professional is just not fair.
Ill just by saying I am not a big fan of Idra but I love his rage and BM and the stories it creates. That said Idra played flawlessly in day 1. His game against MC clearly showed that his understanding on the matchup is very high and is far from "unwinnable" like how he sometimes like to put it. His mentality is what is stopping him from getting to the top. He always assumes his opponent will play perfectly which is not the case. He never wants to play from behind. Legends like boxer is known for being able to come back from games people though was impossible. In an RTS, you can never guranntee that a game will go in your way. Playing from behind is key to successful progamers. Anyone remember Top vs Fruitdealer on Kulas? We would have never gotten the most epic GSL win if Fruitdealer had a mindset like Idra.
OP deserves some recognition for giving us a view into the Korean scene, and their opinions.
On topic, yes, IdrA's worst enemy is himself. That MMA game put him on tilt, and I don't think he recovered. He's super negative, and needs to get rid of that if he's going to show his true potential and just rip apart everyone outside of Korea.
If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
He finish that MLG as first non korean without even trying pass day1. How is that bad performance ?! Idra is stupidly good at this game, and he know that. But he still think everyone is as good as him, so he give up the instant he's in a bad spot.
probably just a mistake / misjudgement on idras part..you cant see through the fog of war..some peoples comments remind me of donks criticizing poker players because they see the hole cards, and are suddenly insightful geniuses.
Personally I hate watching players like moon who refuse to GG until they are at 10 supply with 2 buildings left..
Idra takes so much heat every time he loses..lets start a thread up about how naniwa got completely destroyed by MC after he fucking danced his zealots gloating like a retard which lost him the game. or ANY of the other competitors the koreans destroyed at MLG. Idra got 4th. koreans swept 1-2-3.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
I was lucky enough to be watching on the live steam when it happened. I thought for sure Idra had it in the bag and then out of left field was the GG... I was in disbelief, pissed and at the same time I felt bad for Idra.
I hope Idra adopts a mindset to just fight it out to the last zergling no matter what. Sure the outcome will be the same 99% of the time but it's that 1% that makes the difference.
Even when he thinks the game is lost he should just play as if he is the "insane AI" that doesn't care about being behind.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
you are an ignorant troll. Idra is EG's best clutch player by far. He is their ace.
On June 06 2011 20:38 starcraft2rush wrote: probably just a mistake / misjudgement on idras part..you cant see through the fog of war..some peoples comments remind me of donks criticizing poker players because they see the hole cards, and are suddenly insightful geniuses.
Personally I hate watching players like moon who refuse to GG until they are at 10 supply with 2 buildings left..
Idra takes so much heat every time he loses..lets start a thread up about how naniwa got completely destroyed by MC after he fucking danced his zealots gloating like a retard which lost him the game. or ANY of the other competitors the koreans destroyed at MLG. Idra got 4th. koreans swept 1-2-3.
so koreans>idra>everyone else
The thing is you'd expect a player of Idra's caliber to not gg so prematurely.
Sure, people make mistakes but Idra has had a problem of gg'ing prematurely for quite a while now. Honestly, you saw the look on Day[9]'s face. He's definitely a better SC2 player/analyst than the vast majority of us and he seemed extremely surprised too...
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
lmao, Idra's the best thing EG has to offer.
I dare to disagree with you both :D InControl is amazing, Machine is a beast and DeMuslim is epic. And the rest of their rooster is pretty impressive. As for being kicked out of EG - don't think that will happen because of something like that. Idra might have personality issues, but doesn't means he's useless to the team. In football teams (soccer for the NA liquidians), there are often that sort of players being successful and clubs hanging onto them. Examples are so many that I can't bother to mention any. Just look at any mid-to-top european team and you'll notice those types of players in almost each one of the teams.
On June 06 2011 20:38 starcraft2rush wrote: probably just a mistake / misjudgement on idras part..you cant see through the fog of war..some peoples comments remind me of donks criticizing poker players because they see the hole cards, and are suddenly insightful geniuses.
Personally I hate watching players like moon who refuse to GG until they are at 10 supply with 2 buildings left..
Idra takes so much heat every time he loses..lets start a thread up about how naniwa got completely destroyed by MC after he fucking danced his zealots gloating like a retard which lost him the game. or ANY of the other competitors the koreans destroyed at MLG. Idra got 4th. koreans swept 1-2-3.
so koreans>idra>everyone else
The thing is you'd expect a player of Idra's caliber to not gg so prematurely.
Sure, people make mistakes but Idra has had a problem of gg'ing prematurely for quite a while now. Honestly, you saw the look on Day[9]'s face. He's definitely a better SC2 player/analyst than the vast majority of us and he seemed extremely surprised too...
my point is people make mistakes..Idra just gets way more shit than anyone else for his.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
He finish that MLG as first non korean without even trying pass day1. How is that bad performance ?! Idra is stupidly good at this game, and he know that. But he still think everyone is as good as him, so he give up the instant he's in a bad spot.
I blame the format first then Idra ^^. That first day set him up in the best possible place out of all westerners. Also if everyone was as good as him we would all have dislocated jaws by the sheer amount of WTF? decisions of top players...
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
lmao, Idra's the best thing EG has to offer.
I dare to disagree with you both :D InControl is amazing, Machine is a beast and DeMuslim is epic. And the rest of their rooster is pretty impressive. As for being kicked out of EG - don't think that will happen because of something like that. Idra might have personality issues, but doesn't means he's useless to the team. In football teams (soccer for the NA liquidians), there are often that sort of players being successful and clubs hanging onto them. Examples are so many that I can't bother to mention any. Just look at any mid-to-top european team and you'll notice those types of players in almost each one of the teams.
You clearly like to throw around superlatives. Incontrol is amazing on state of the game, i agree - as a player though? Not as amazing, though he is definately decent. Machine being a beast surely depends on the criterias for a beast, but a 45 % win ratio in tlpd is not what i like to call beastly. But then again he is also a decent player at about same level as incontrol. Demuslim was over their level before he hurt himself and has yet to proven himself again.
Idra is the reason that EG is considered to be equal or almost equal compared to teams like dignitas, mouz and fnatic. But i also agree somewhat with the first poster that Idras mentality is just sooo bad that team EG might need to hire a sports psychologists or something, it will be almost impossible for him to win anything really big with his mind set.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
IdrA's really smart, but he's also fucking arrogant if he thinks he can predict the future.
Imagine IdrA is a goalie in hockey. A player on the opposing team manages to get a breakway, and is racing towards him undefended. At this point, Idra just skates off the ice, leaving the net open because he just assumes that the opposing player has the optimal conditions to score, is reasonably talented, and will score anyway. GG!
IdrA assumes players like MMA don't kill their own orbital or MC let a nydus pop in his main next to a probe.
This is not arrogance. He just has this false idea that SC2 koreans are as good as their BW counterparts when in truth is that the koreans make a shit ton of mistakes in SC2 that he could abuse.
It's more humble than arrogant to assume your opponent doesn't do stupid shit.
Touche.
The point is, IdrA's brain and judgement is officially fucked. He's such a talented player but lacks the will, desire, or even hope required to be a truly great player.
He has the exact opposite of a never-say-die attitude.
Dude needs to see a sports psychologist.
I don't think he lacks the will or desire. I do think he has a huge mental block holding him back. I truely believe with his BW background, Korean training history and insane attention to detail when it comes to build orders, awesome drone timings and high enough APM to compete with anyone... With all those tools, he is his own worst enemy. If he would change his approach from the "The game is broken. I need to play perfect to win." in to "The game is very challenging. What can I come up with to beat these challenges."
I think its his selfdefeatist attitude and lack of true creativity that is holding this otherwise awesome player back. What he needs is an elite level SC2 coach.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
lmao, Idra's the best thing EG has to offer.
I dare to disagree with you both :D InControl is amazing, Machine is a beast and DeMuslim is epic. And the rest of their rooster is pretty impressive. As for being kicked out of EG - don't think that will happen because of something like that. Idra might have personality issues, but doesn't means he's useless to the team. In football teams (soccer for the NA liquidians), there are often that sort of players being successful and clubs hanging onto them. Examples are so many that I can't bother to mention any. Just look at any mid-to-top european team and you'll notice those types of players in almost each one of the teams.
You clearly like to throw around superlatives. Incontrol is amazing on state of the game, i agree - as a player though? Not as amazing, though he is definately decent. Machine being a beast surely depends on the criterias for a beast, but a 45 % win ratio in tlpd is not what i like to call beastly. But then again he is also a decent player at about same level as incontrol. Demuslim was over their level before he hurt himself and has yet to proven himself again.
Idra is the reason that EG is considered to be equal or almost equal compared to teams like dignitas, mouz and fnatic. But i also agree somewhat with the first poster that Idras mentality is just sooo bad that team EG might need to hire a sports psychologists or something, it will be almost impossible for him to win anything really big with his mind set.
Aw, c'mon dude. Let's be positive about stuff around here. Trolling and hating is fun and all, but I kinda feel like there's a bit too much of that around here already. As for why I "hype" so much EG's line-up, it's quite simple. They go to events and perform quite good. I could start criticizing them only when I start doing that stuff they do, but better. And since I'm not - I guess they're great players all around and deserve the superlatives. I honestly don't have a negative opinion towards anyone who is going out there and performing at tournaments. And I don't think anyone should have negative opinion about those players. There are people afraid to hit the Ladder and we're talking about going out to an event with 250+ players of equal and better caliber and performing well.
i like his play, but he throws the towel in like a salty kiddo time after time...
why can't he be respectful of opponents? someone who is respectful of his opponents will not prematurely gg.
we all know why the premature gg. it's because idra thought he was going to lose and someone was going to get the better of him... he didn't like it, so he instantly left.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
lmao, Idra's the best thing EG has to offer.
I dare to disagree with you both :D InControl is amazing, Machine is a beast and DeMuslim is epic. And the rest of their rooster is pretty impressive. As for being kicked out of EG - don't think that will happen because of something like that. Idra might have personality issues, but doesn't means he's useless to the team. In football teams (soccer for the NA liquidians), there are often that sort of players being successful and clubs hanging onto them. Examples are so many that I can't bother to mention any. Just look at any mid-to-top european team and you'll notice those types of players in almost each one of the teams.
You clearly like to throw around superlatives. Incontrol is amazing on state of the game, i agree - as a player though? Not as amazing, though he is definately decent. Machine being a beast surely depends on the criterias for a beast, but a 45 % win ratio in tlpd is not what i like to call beastly. But then again he is also a decent player at about same level as incontrol. Demuslim was over their level before he hurt himself and has yet to proven himself again.
Idra is the reason that EG is considered to be equal or almost equal compared to teams like dignitas, mouz and fnatic. But i also agree somewhat with the first poster that Idras mentality is just sooo bad that team EG might need to hire a sports psychologists or something, it will be almost impossible for him to win anything really big with his mind set.
Aw, c'mon dude. Let's be positive about stuff around here. Trolling and hating is fun and all, but I kinda feel like there's a bit too much of that around here already. As for why I "hype" so much EG's line-up, it's quite simple. They go to events and perform quite good. I could start criticizing them only when I start doing that stuff they do, but better. And since I'm not - I guess they're great players all around and deserve the superlatives. I honestly don't have a negative opinion towards anyone who is going out there and performing at tournaments. And I don't think anyone should have negative opinion about those players. There are people afraid to hit the Ladder and we're talking about going out to an event with 250+ players of equal and better caliber and performing well.
Yeah I am not hating or trolling either, that is why i called them both decent players. And by decent i ofcourse mean compared to other progamers, not the average joe or anything. There are a lot of good pro players and if you call all pros amazing then that word is kinda meaningless after a while and when some players play really amazing like MMA did, what do you call him then? Amazing x1000?
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
lmao, Idra's the best thing EG has to offer.
I dare to disagree with you both :D InControl is amazing, Machine is a beast and DeMuslim is epic. And the rest of their rooster is pretty impressive. As for being kicked out of EG - don't think that will happen because of something like that. Idra might have personality issues, but doesn't means he's useless to the team. In football teams (soccer for the NA liquidians), there are often that sort of players being successful and clubs hanging onto them. Examples are so many that I can't bother to mention any. Just look at any mid-to-top european team and you'll notice those types of players in almost each one of the teams.
You clearly like to throw around superlatives. Incontrol is amazing on state of the game, i agree - as a player though? Not as amazing, though he is definately decent. Machine being a beast surely depends on the criterias for a beast, but a 45 % win ratio in tlpd is not what i like to call beastly. But then again he is also a decent player at about same level as incontrol. Demuslim was over their level before he hurt himself and has yet to proven himself again.
Idra is the reason that EG is considered to be equal or almost equal compared to teams like dignitas, mouz and fnatic. But i also agree somewhat with the first poster that Idras mentality is just sooo bad that team EG might need to hire a sports psychologists or something, it will be almost impossible for him to win anything really big with his mind set.
Aw, c'mon dude. Let's be positive about stuff around here. Trolling and hating is fun and all, but I kinda feel like there's a bit too much of that around here already. As for why I "hype" so much EG's line-up, it's quite simple. They go to events and perform quite good. I could start criticizing them only when I start doing that stuff they do, but better. And since I'm not - I guess they're great players all around and deserve the superlatives. I honestly don't have a negative opinion towards anyone who is going out there and performing at tournaments. And I don't think anyone should have negative opinion about those players. There are people afraid to hit the Ladder and we're talking about going out to an event with 250+ players of equal and better caliber and performing well.
Well, your post sounds like a troll aswell.
You can only criticize a player you are better then? You know incontrol and tyler are criticizing pro players right? And out of the pro gamers that makes a living of this, there isnt many players they are better then.
To the original subject. EG would never ever drop Idra. For now he is their only top player. Machine and incontrol had argueably one of the easier groups in pool play, and yet didnt do very well. Machine abit better then incontrol?
Found it pretty hilarious how Incontrol basicly became the new Last "you are sick good" Shadow with all his comments after the games he lost: "you are in my head" "you dominated me" " you are an incredible player".
On June 06 2011 21:12 KaidaN wrote: plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
4th at MLG doesn't mean much on its own. The MLG system is weird at best, and you can place high while winning hardly any notable games. See Incontrol. Let's look at IdrA's results:
2-0 Ret. Not bad, but he'd be disappointed if he lost. 2-0 Tyler. Tyler has been very disappointing, IdrA would certainly expect the win here. 2-0 SelecT. See Ret result. Select had a miserable MLG. 2-0 MC. Excellent result. 0-2 Thorzain. Fairly disappointing, but not terrible. 0-2 MMA. What more needs to be said? 2-0 Slush. Very much expected. 0-4 MC. Decent in one game, godawful in the rest.
So overall, what did he achieve? He got a 2-0 over MC in pool play. Other than that? Some good but expected results, a somewhat disappointing one, and two bloody awful ones. That's not a good performance by his standards, not even close.
Not gonna take the bite - they're pro's, they are in SotG for that reason and they can say whatever they want. Too bad people sometimes take SotG too seriously and think everything said there is 101% true, when in reality, there's a huge dose of fanboism and trolling going on. Just like on these forums. Anyways, we're drifting off-topic. Last post from me on that matter, before a TLMod comes and swoops us all up.
This "cool image" thing is quite the point towards cultural difference. Maybe if a korean did that it would be, but I don't see an image being formed here - Idra is just being Idra that we all came to know.
This criticism is nonsense. Idra isn't bad because of his GG timing. He does that sometimes because of how his brain ticks about the game. Like fantasy ggs far too late sometimes because of how fantasy's brain ticks. But you can't criticize it specifically because it's emergent from other qualities in those people, qualities that actually get them as far as that booth on huge stages. He would probably be better if he sorted some things out. I mean, you can point it out, but you can't say that he's bad/trash just because sometimes he GGs like an anti-boss. He's obviously a talented player - he's like the only white guy with respectable entries in all 4 TLPDs. Maybe I'm just reading too far into hyperbole.
And there is no connection to hurting e-sports. If anything, it would be a beneficial stir every time he did something cool. Also an aside, I know if I were a progamer one of the things I would want to do would be to beat Jaedong in a televised 1v1 but GG anyways just to be awesome.
I just can't understand all the people who always want to bash IdrA in every god damn tournament for every fucking thing he does. I mean sure, IdrA is weird, he have tendency to crumble, give away games and leave way too early... so what ? Things are getting old already...
MLG Colombus was fucking great, I was so pleased to see Thorzain, Naniwa and IdrA at such a high level, showing off that they can compete (even if they lost) against the top tier korean players. Why, here on tl, there are only topic about IdrA, how IdrA left too early, why MC was right to BM him... and blablabla. Sure it's funny, IdrA gave us a hell of a show like always, and we have a lot of thing to laugh about but I just can't understand all the people mad at him for losing this way. It's how it is... All the IdrA haters are much much worse than the IdrA fan.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and almost* beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
Whoa, that's a serious bummer right. It does prove the booths are sound-proof though, the crowd is absolutely going crazy when Idra does his counter push.
Legendary faces by the commentators. Must be an awful spot to be in, I wouldn't know what to say either.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
Seems like a valid line to take but on the spectrum of "GG WP yo" to "Fantasy-gg-timing", even IF MMA had marines coming, I feel like not GG'ing right there would be quite acceptable.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
Thorzain would have won against MC if there was no extended series rule aswell. I think they need to reconsider that shit, its silly and everyone knows it.
You are deluding yourself if you think Idra gged for some other reason than he was certain that he was so close to losing it was largely pointless to continue.
He did exactly the same thing vs HuK. And if you know anything about Idra you know he is stubborn
LOL at Idra being "cool". He is the most hotheaded, emotional, effeminate guy in progaming. He needs the chill the fuck out, though I suppose his opponents don't mind getting free wins every now and then.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
Thorzain would have won against MC if there was no extended series rule aswell. I think they need to reconsider that shit, its silly and everyone knows it.
i support the extended series in this tournament format. i don't think it's the best overall format, but it's a lot better than the last few GSL's.
without extended series, a player could be 5 wins 4 losses (2-0 win in group, 3-4 loss in extended), and still get knocked out by that player.
it makes the group stage matches important as hell, that is all.
Idra would most likely loose the games he gg'd and left early in at mlg and other games we've seen of him, but the fact that he doesn't like playing at a dissadvantage i think hurts him overall.
He's winrate in most cases are insane and he is one of the very best, but i immagine that if he played out games he feel he's loosing maybe it would be slightly higher.
Looking at Nestea, we see him time and time again forced up in a corner where all looks grim, but he allways seem to try his hardest to find a possible comeback and one spectacular time he did so, when facing SC in the gsl he barely won his 5th and deciding game and proceeding to take a gsl title that season.
With that in mind you can think back to the series between idra and jinro, what if jinro would have messed up his control in the game vs idra on metalopolis where he bunker rushed at close positions and Idra gave up. Maybe Idra could have had a gsl title under his belt.
You can say "what if" situations are stupid, but this is my toughts in all of this.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
Thorzain would have won against MC if there was no extended series rule aswell. I think they need to reconsider that shit, its silly and everyone knows it.
i support the extended series in this tournament format. i don't think it's the best overall format, but it's a lot better than the last few GSL's.
without extended series, a player could be 5 wins 4 losses (2-0 win in group, 3-4 loss in extended), and still get knocked out by that player.
it makes the group stage matches important as hell, that is all.
That's true, but at the same time, with the way the MLG pool play > championship bracket works, that player would pay for losing by having to play more games in the bracket. Extended series feels too much like double punishment to me. And I don't like the way MLG are doing it with the seeding for the brackets, where they basically pair up groups, meaning you're bound to get maximum extended series.
i know exactly what goes through idra's mind though... i've felt exactly the same when i played UT99 competitively back in the day, when you see something start to go horribly wrong you defeat yourself and get angry because you KNOW you're better than your opponent and you should win. (you should never go into competition thinking you're inferior)
but the ultimate solution is to be ***respectful of your opponents***. if you treat the opposition as a potential friend then you'll be a lot more comfortable and if you lose to a stupid mistake or he beats you with something 'cheesy' then you have a laugh and say well played.... you do not become enraged and then become super tilted, you have fun win or lose.
being enraged is never good, becoming flustered and you begin doubting yourself etc. idra won vs huk because idra is a better player, not because he became enraged and wanted revenge or some crap.
mc was probably worried facing idra, and then when he saw idra's series against MMA he was probably thinking "free win keke".
idra seems to treats every one of his opponents like he just scraped them off his boot. look at the crowds reaction after that premature GG, is that good for esports? it's embarrassing that idra is one of the best players in the world and still does that crap.
On June 06 2011 13:34 frodoguy wrote: maybe he did it to create buzz in the esports scene to make it more appealing (helping the growth of esports)? if he is willing to sacrifice the money then maybe
2 people playing doing awful decisions grows esports? Ok.
Can we just ban the phrase 'growth of esports' at all, it's getting fucking retarded. Plus we have to hear about EVERYTHING IDRA DOES constantly. It's actually really boring now.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and almost* beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
pretty much this, thorzain performed better than any other foreigner on mlg
I feel for the young man. The only thing stopping Idra from being the best Zerg in the world is Idra. It's a pressure situation, you cannot assume your opponent will play it out perfectly. At the highest level, pressure is what defines players and anyone can choke. For the most part Idra is fantastic under pressure, stop giving your opponents that same credit Idra!
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
Completely uncalled for.
IdrA probably just thought he was a lot further behind than he actually was. It was a terrible call for him to make (never give up, never surrender), especially when the spectators have perfect map vision... but this certainly isn't the first time he's left the game prematurely.
On June 06 2011 21:12 KaidaN wrote: plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
4th at MLG doesn't mean much on its own. The MLG system is weird at best, and you can place high while winning hardly any notable games. See Incontrol. Let's look at IdrA's results:
2-0 Ret. Not bad, but he'd be disappointed if he lost. 2-0 Tyler. Tyler has been very disappointing, IdrA would certainly expect the win here. 2-0 SelecT. See Ret result. Select had a miserable MLG. 2-0 MC. Excellent result. 0-2 Thorzain. Fairly disappointing, but not terrible. 0-2 MMA. What more needs to be said? 2-0 Slush. Very much expected. 0-4 MC. Decent in one game, godawful in the rest.
So overall, what did he achieve? He got a 2-0 over MC in pool play. Other than that? Some good but expected results, a somewhat disappointing one, and two bloody awful ones. That's not a good performance by his standards, not even close.
Firstly to be fair to tyler and select (and maybe even ret?) they pretty much were in the 'group of death'
compared to his little slump earlier in the year, id say thats pretty good results by a 'foreigner'.
People (including day9) said that IdrA after the first day looked like a major favourite to take out the tournament considering the way in which he CRUSHED each of them, the games didnt even look remarkably close.
Yes he had disappointing results after the first day but it was obvious he was on tilt, he threw all the games but 1 against MC didnt really look like he was trying as hard as he had against thorzain. Against MMA, well that was disappointing but again the effects of being on 'idra tilt'.
Overall, any of the pool players could have been 4th, it wasnt like idra was given a 20 game headstart before the first game @ MLG.
Results are results, IdrA took 4th and no one can do anything about it.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and almost* beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
pretty much this, thorzain performed better than any other foreigner on mlg
Thorzain and Idra performed as well as each other. Idra might have embaressed himself in the end but he was still the only foreigner to beat a Korean in a series.
Idra will never be a winner until he stops quitting games early.
Winners and people who succeed in life will claw their way to the top and fight tooth and nail even if they are losing, especially when they are losing. In sports it is all about when you are down and out do you rally, do you elevate your game, do you go into some god mode and just destroy your opponent after you slipped or he got lucky.
This is why MMA will always beat Idra at the moment. Everyone makes mistakes, it is how you recover from them that makes you great.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
Thorzain would have won against MC if there was no extended series rule aswell. I think they need to reconsider that shit, its silly and everyone knows it.
You assume MC would have played the same with or without the 2-0 lead. That's a pretty stupid assumption.
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and almost* beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
pretty much this, thorzain performed better than any other foreigner on mlg
Thorzain and Idra performed as well as each other. Idra might have embaressed himself in the end but he was still the only foreigner to beat a Korean in a series.
On June 06 2011 13:50 Reborn8u wrote: Idra has been known for this for a long time. In TSL 2 (BW) he accidentally canceled his command center building at his natural while it was getting harassed by a probe. He instantly gg'd. In the GSL against Jinro's bunker rush ramp block close positions on metalopolis, he GG's, didn't even try to break it. Against huk he had the game won and GG'd because of a bunch of hallucinated void rays. In this very MLG he GG'd against MC's cannon rush, he had his nat up and was able to make lings to counter mc's base but he just gg'd. These are major events, these are not games anyone should just be giving away.
Idra has no heart, no resilience, he rolls over and quits at the first sign of an uphill battle. If he were MMA he would have GG'd when he killed his own OC. I was a fan for a while, but I feel like Idra has become more of a spectacle than a competitor. He's good, but he acts like a 10 year old sometimes. He gives up when things get tough, he goes on tilt and whines when he looses, he gives people the finger, and that is why he is so popular. The most disappointing thing is he has so much skill and talent.
If Idra had a never say die attitude, was full of determination 100% of the time. Accepted his losses with dignity, he would probably be the most feared opponent in starcraft. But his attitude, approach to the game, and mental state are holding him back from dominating. I would love to see him change and reach his full potential, but after a few years of seeing this I think it may be deeply ingrained in who he is.
On June 06 2011 14:24 BaronFel wrote: For koreans, "cool" means something along the lines of "I don't really care" attitude. Like if you get blown off and you go "whatever" and act like is no big deal, that's being cool.
yup and along that line I would like to correct the mistranslation from the event
MMA never said anything about 'being positive'
This is what MMA actually said but lost in translation 'From this game, I hope Idra is able to learn some perseverance/fortitude'
On June 06 2011 20:29 Lutto wrote: If idra wasnt so popular he would probably be kicked from EG, his preformance and rage quitting is just bad and the fact that he still states that zerg sucks vs protoss after the last results (even losria vs mc) is just sad...
are you joking? Idras performances are bad? hes only lost like 3 BO x's in major tounaments in the last few months
plus he fact that he finished as 4th against arguably players in the top 3 for their race in korea and the best foreigner WITH all the early gging and senseless rage quitting.
If anything it really shows to EG how good of a player he could really be if he just changed his attitude.
+ the fact that IdrA is a benefit to any team as a practice partner and an ACE player i would put removing IdrA from EG as one of the stupidest things an 'professional' team could ever do.
thorzain looked like the best foreigner tbh. argruably he would have finished highest foreigner if he didn't have to play his group matches after exhausting open bracket marathon and almost* beating MC...
naniwa and idra both surrender to MC before the match even starts.
pretty much this, thorzain performed better than any other foreigner on mlg
Thorzain and Idra performed as well as each other. Idra might have embaressed himself in the end but he was still the only foreigner to beat a Korean in a series.
Hmm how did the Moon vs Naniwa series end ?
Forgot about that, fair enough. Most people don't rate Moon too highly but you're right Naniwa did beat him.
I think the extendet series rule is the worst thing for the matches.. The players who have beaten their opponents once should be able to defeat them a second time. If not their first win was probably just luck. And on the other hand if there are such intense matches like Idra vs. MC (sunday match) no player will go into the series with something like "lol 2:0 already; no chance to lose" in their minds.
On June 06 2011 22:55 sicQ wrote: I think the extendet series rule is the worst thing for the matches.. The players who have beaten their opponents once should be able to defeat them a second time. If not their first win was probably just luck. And on the other hand if there are such intense matches like Idra vs. MC (sunday match) no player will go into the series with something like "lol 2:0 already; no chance to lose" in their minds.
They should change to series to Bo5 later on in the tournament. A final should not be a Bo3.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Mental strength is believing you can outplay your opponent to the end. IdrA assumed MMA was playing perfectly but he was not. IdrA isn't psychic and should have stuck around to see what was really happening in the game instead of assuming he'd lost.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Mental strength is believing you can outplay your opponent to the end. IdrA assumed MMA was playing perfectly but he was not. IdrA isn't psychic and should have stuck around to see what was really happening in the game instead of assuming he'd lost.
Perfect response imo. Would like a reply to this argument.
The comment by Zhyq is ridiculous. Who plays absolutely perfect? And if Idra bases his decisions on that assumption, I would question his mental strength even more. I would wonder if he's fucking retarded.
The truth is, the problem is psychological, not computational. Which makes me wonder... are there any participants in e-sports who employ sports psychologists? I think Idra could benefit a lot from a good one.
The Idralings in this thread are mind boggling. He will never be a champion if he keeps giving up so easily with his self defeating attitude. You're die hard defence of him will only hinder his ability to grow as a player.
IdrA's attitude about starcraft 2 hurts his performance. I do not like his attitude one bit and I am saying this because he is the best non korean in the world and he can't prove it. Even the koreans look at idra and know this guy is good. Whats that old addage? Football is 80% physical and 20% mental? This is exactly the same thing here.
IdrA! You need to work on your 20% man. Your attitude is losing you games now. This is not just because of GG timings either. The whole 2nd MC series IdrA played terrible. MC was completely in his head. Roach rushing 3 times when MC just stopped a roach rush from Moon. Then you get to the last game and think, zerg isnt supposed to beat protoss.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Ya, leaving games early is a feat of extremely high intelligence...
I realize IdrA is smart, but you're really pushing the definition of ultra-fanboy right now =/
I actually dislike IdrA on the whole, but I do admire his ability to know whether he has an advantage or not. So not a fanboy, I'd say.
Well you shouldn't admire it that much, because facts seem to suggest it's quite a bit off.
IdrA has what Zig Ziglar called a "loser's limp. It's holding him back.
Characteristically, when a person falls victim to Garbage-Dump Thinking he develops an assortment of "Loser's Limps." You know what the Loser's Limp is if you've ever attended a football game or watched one on television. (Incidentally, the last time I saw the local team play I knew they were in trouble when the punter signaled for a fair catch on the snap from center.) The offensive player slips behind the defensive player, reaches up, pulls in a pass,and heads for the end zone. The defensive player quickly recovers and takes out in hot pursuit. When the offensive player gets about 20 yards from the end zone, the defensive player realizes he's not going to catch the man with the ball. Everybody in the stands knows it too. So, the defensive player frequently pulls up limping and the people in the stands say, "Well, no wonder the poor guy couldn't catch him. Look, he's crippled." Now that is Loser's Limp.
Psychologically, giving up with some ego-soothing excuse like "Zerg can't win against Protoss" is better than admitting to yourself that the other player might just be better, or that maybe you just need to practice harder.
If he took the energy he wastes on balance-whining and trashing other players and focused it on honestly improving his own play, I think he'd be a much better player. He's entertaining to watch, but as other players get better he has to keep up with hard practice instead of ego-saving antics.
Idra should just GG at the beginning of every game if he believes his opponent will execute perfect play. Logic that stupid is the antithesis of the competitive mindset.
If MMA hadn't suicided his gold, he's probably got quite a few more marines, and likely wins that final encounter. But Idra needed only hang around a few seconds more, and he would have seen, definitively and with his own eyes, that no such marines existed. Blunders of this kind are the worst, because they simultaneously reveal both Idra's genius and foolishness.
I was so disappointed to see Idra go out of the tournament this like this. After his first match with MC I was really hoping that he would show inspiring games throughout the tournament, but his series against MMA and MC were just painful to watch. Everybody knows that he could have done so much better. It is so sad. If Idra would work on his mindset, maybe even with the help of a sport psychologist, I feel that he could do way better than he already is. Tbh I cant think of any athlete/gamer as successful as Idra with such a bad mindset. It is really scary that hes doing so well nonetheless. As pointed out many times before in this thread, his approach to the game is not healthy for esports. People watch to see players compete, and against MC, Idra was not competing and even claimed that there is nothing like competition in PvZ. The MLG stage is not the place for such remarks.
Hopefully he will grow with the experience so we can all enjoy watching him trying his best. ZvP might be imbalanced but that does not mean that Idra vs MC is imbalanced as well.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
How is this even a coherent argument?
"I'm going to quit because I think there are tons of marines on their way to defend a bunch of naked tanks. But I don't really know, but I better quit just in case."
This is what he DID know:
He won the middle engagement. He was in the process of cleaning up the drop that he erroneously thought killed all his drones (which is fine, it gives an idea of what his thought process was). There were about 8 tanks there, no marine support, and a gold base about halfway done with construction. He could easily have cleaned up the tanks, something he should have easily deduced, and force a cancel on the gold CC. It would take more than one wave of marines to stop 16+ mutas. So he should know that MMA would have to concede the gold base, and that would put them about on equal mining bases, in idra's mind. Even so, idra would be a LITTLE ahead since he has a gold base and MMA didn't. That seems about square to me.
After this point, since he believes MMA has another base up, he already has air dominance, he could find it and harass it while rebuilding his "lost drones"
That would be a coherent thought process and thinking 2-3 minutes into the future of the game.
Idra isn't some god in SC2 that can predict the future and the outcome of a game. He didn't know if he was winning or losing. He just gives up mentally when the game is not clear to him. He might be a phenomenal player, but sometimes his game sense is just abyssmal.
I don't know about you guys but I think the extended series is not a bad choice.
Having a proper losers bracket is also good because it just ensures that the 2 best players are in the final. Not something like a nestea vs inca match.
Having an extended series also means that if the winning player wins twice by cheesing or doing those lucky build orders to that opponent. Then the next time the better player should win either way even if he has to get 4 wins in an extended series (take MC vs iDra for example). So i think it was a good format. The better players were in the finals at the end .
As an Idra fan it makes me very sad and upset to see him have this type of mentality. I'm not saying he should use Fantasy-style gg timings, but he should at least try to play games out somewhat fully instead of assuming that the game is completely over. GGing because you just assume your opponent will reinforce with a new army is mindboggingly unprofessional. Your opponent will almost never play perfectly, so there will almost always be mistakes that you can abuse and take advantage of in order to get back into a game that looks lost.
I remember an old Flash interview where he was asked what mentality he has during his games, and he said he keeps on thinking ''LOL YOU CAN'T BEAT ME''. That's like the opposite of what Idra seems to be thinking. That is part of the reason why Flash has made some of the most ridiculous comebacks of all time, like the legendary game vs FBH.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
idra had 16 mutas sitting over the undefended tanks, mma only had 22 marines all out of place. Idra wouldve easily cleaned uip the 8 tanks that were left before marines couldve reached the mutas. Then with lings reinforcing and mutas he couldve cleaned up any marines that would reinforce and easily take out the gold of mma easily ending the game
WE know this.
IdrA did not. He thought MMA was taking his 4th gold base and had a 3 base eonomy and another round of marines on the way while he had 0 banes.
IdrA left because he didn't know what mma had. If he knew he had enough muta left to keep going he would have.
This is what he DID know:
He won the middle engagement. (He lost 1/2 his muta, had no banes, and would die to any reinforcements.) He was in the process of cleaning up the drop that he erroneously thought killed all his drones (which is fine, it gives an idea of what his thought process was). (all his drones were clicked into a gas, he thought he lost like 20 of them.) There were about 8 tanks there, no marine support, and a gold base about halfway done with construction. (idra though the gold was the 4th base) He could easily have cleaned up the tanks, something he should have easily deduced, and force a cancel on the gold CC. (He would have ran into another marine ball had MMA not killed his CC) It would take more than one wave of marines to stop 16+ mutas. (Wrong. It was late game 3 base, he had a lot of barracks. all idras muta were low hp as well from the last fight) So he should know that MMA would have to concede the gold base, and that would put them about on equal mining bases, in idra's mind. Even so, idra would be a LITTLE ahead since he has a gold base and MMA didn't. That seems about square to me.
After this point, since he believes MMA has another base up, he already has air dominance, he could find it and harass it while rebuilding his "lost drones" (Wrong. He was not able to harass all game. MMA built a shit load of turrets. He had no banes and few zerglings, he would have been forced to make units and could not re-drone)
That would be a coherent thought process and thinking 2-3 minutes into the future of the game.
Idra isn't some god in SC2 that can predict the future and the outcome of a game. He didn't know if he was winning or losing. He just gives up mentally when the game is not clear to him. He might be a phenomenal player, but sometimes his game sense is just abyssmal. (no shit, nobody is saying he should have left the game. It was a logical thought process to assume he lost, but he was 100% illogical to actually do it without checking around with his muta.)
idrA just devolves into this defeatist mentality when he feels hes at a disadvantage in the game, it's a huge problem and we've been seeing it for months now. Every tournament he plays in there are games where he prematurely ggs. Most of the time he is at a disadvantage but he hasn't lost the game. With all that was on the line in these games you just have to try to play it out and take chances to get back in it.
The EG management team probably should step in and have a bit of an intervention with it because this behavior is having somewhat of a negative affect on their team. After the series with MMA, idrA's series with MC was nothing short of embarrassing. The first three games were two all-ins and idrA taking a huge risk with hatch first and just dying to MC pylon cannoning him. It was a really far cry from the brilliant games that idrA put on to kick off the tournament and was basically nothing short of a complete mental collapse on idrA's part.
1) He had 16 mutas. MMA had 20 marines. He wasn't going to die to reinforcements that MMA couldn't afford anyway. 2) If he thought he lost all his drones he's simply retarded. 3) If he thought the gold was a 4th he's a moron, his mutas were flying around he would've known if MMA had a 3rd. 4) If my aunt had balls etc. It doesn't matter what would've happened if MMA didn't kill his CC. 5) It was neither lategame nor 3base. 6) He didn't need to redrone, he had 73 fucking drones. 7) No it wasn't logical at all, he's a fucking moron if he thought everything you just wrote.
The desire of some people to suck Idra's dick is so pathetic.
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Played phenomenally? What Idra did you watch? He played well on Friday. He did not win a single game on any of the next two days, and he played TERRIBLY versus MC on Sunday. Absolutely embarrassing from a top foreigner.
This tourney highlighted just how far the gap is between Korea and the West - the top foreigners got absolutely blasted by Koreans at MLG.
On June 07 2011 00:00 Holgerius wrote: As an Idra fan it makes me very sad and upset to see him have this type of mentality. I'm not saying he should use Fantasy-style gg timings, but he should at least try to play games out somewhat fully instead of assuming that the game is completely over. GGing because you just assume your opponent will reinforce with a new army is mindboggingly unprofessional. Your opponent will almost never play perfectly, so there will almost always be mistakes that you can abuse and take advantage of in order to get back into a game that looks lost.
I remember an old Flash interview where he was asked what mentality he has during his games, and he said he keeps on thinking ''LOL YOU CAN'T BEAT ME''. That's like the opposite of what Idra seems to be thinking. That is part of the reason why Flash has made some of the most ridiculous comebacks of all time, like the legendary game vs FBH.
Yeah it is pretty sad to see, especially when he was doing so well this tournament and had a strong chance to win, it really seems like he just gave up. Not just this game but the following games against MC it seems like he had already accepted that he wasn't going to win. EG really needs a coach that will chew his ass over this IMO.
On June 06 2011 13:27 GenesisX wrote: Match fixing?
...Must be joking right?
I think IdrA is good enough to know if hes winning or losing.
IdrA said he would have been dead if MMA had a round of marines coming, which he would have if he hadn't killed his OC. At least that's what I remember reading. Looking at the VOD Idra only had a small amount of mutas and zerglings, and looks like he would have been dead if MMA had been rallying marines to his base.
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Played phenomenally? What Idra did you watch? He played well on Friday. He did not win a single game on any of the next two days, and he played TERRIBLY versus MC on Sunday. Absolutely embarrassing from a top foreigner.
This tourney highlighted just how far the gap is between Korea and the West - the top foreigners got absolutely blasted by Koreans at MLG.
Didn't he place 4th? I think he did very well outside of his games against MMA and the 2nd set against MC.
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Played phenomenally? What Idra did you watch? He played well on Friday. He did not win a single game on any of the next two days, and he played TERRIBLY versus MC on Sunday. Absolutely embarrassing from a top foreigner.
This tourney highlighted just how far the gap is between Korea and the West - the top foreigners got absolutely blasted by Koreans at MLG.
He beat Slush decisively 2-0 on Sunday.
I don't know what goes on in IdrA's head during these games but he obviously psyches himself out.
On June 07 2011 00:00 Holgerius wrote: As an Idra fan it makes me very sad and upset to see him have this type of mentality. I'm not saying he should use Fantasy-style gg timings, but he should at least try to play games out somewhat fully instead of assuming that the game is completely over. GGing because you just assume your opponent will reinforce with a new army is mindboggingly unprofessional. Your opponent will almost never play perfectly, so there will almost always be mistakes that you can abuse and take advantage of in order to get back into a game that looks lost.
I remember an old Flash interview where he was asked what mentality he has during his games, and he said he keeps on thinking ''LOL YOU CAN'T BEAT ME''. That's like the opposite of what Idra seems to be thinking. That is part of the reason why Flash has made some of the most ridiculous comebacks of all time, like the legendary game vs FBH.
Yeah it is pretty sad to see, especially when he was doing so well this tournament and had a strong chance to win, it really seems like he just gave up. Not just this game but the following games against MC it seems like he had already accepted that he wasn't going to win. EG really needs a coach that will chew his ass over this IMO.
Indeed; get him a sport psychologist. Idra has so much raw skill in SC, he would be a complete monster with a stronger mindset.
On June 07 2011 00:17 Scrubington wrote: How was he supposed to know that MMA destroyed his own OC?
He wasn't, but he also wasn't supposed to assume he was dead and gg out of a game he had basically won. Point is that he didn't have enough information, got in a negative mindset, which cost him both the series against MMR and the series against MC (sure, he might've lost that anyway, but as it is, he didn't even try).
Yeah it really doesn't matter if the OC was still there, it's still too early to quit. Mutas are a fast unit so there a lot of options in a situation like that, there is no reason at all to assume the worst and just quit in a huge game like that. MLG is not the ladder.
Compare that to Nestea's last game against scfou which he basically pulled a win out of his ass IMO, that is why Nestea is a champion and Idra is Idra.
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Played phenomenally? What Idra did you watch? He played well on Friday. He did not win a single game on any of the next two days, and he played TERRIBLY versus MC on Sunday. Absolutely embarrassing from a top foreigner.
This tourney highlighted just how far the gap is between Korea and the West - the top foreigners got absolutely blasted by Koreans at MLG.
Didn't he place 4th? I think he did very well outside of his games against MMA and the 2nd set against MC.
Congrats, he's significantly better than every other foreigner except Naniwa and Thorzain, and they still got absolutely stomped. He played a jetlagged on 2-3 hours of sleep MC on Friday and won. In the match that actually mattered vs MC, he barely tried and got absolutely steamrolled.
Select got third at Dallas, and he 0-5ed his group this time. Idra's play on Saturday and Sunday was truly awful, and there is no denying it. Even in the "macro" game 6, his decision making vs MC was horrible, his composition was horrible, and he threw a significant advantage away and got pounded. The strategies he used vs MC were basically saying "I cannot win a straight up game so I'm going to use bad all-ins", and the match played out like such. Which makes no sense because he beat MC straight up on Friday. There was no reason to use such bad builds. MMA and MC got in his head big time, and he was completely convinced he couldn't win.
MMA was completely right when he said Idra needs to learn to stay positive.
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Played phenomenally? What Idra did you watch? He played well on Friday. He did not win a single game on any of the next two days, and he played TERRIBLY versus MC on Sunday. Absolutely embarrassing from a top foreigner.
This tourney highlighted just how far the gap is between Korea and the West - the top foreigners got absolutely blasted by Koreans at MLG.
He beat Slush decisively 2-0 on Sunday.
I don't know what goes on in IdrA's head during these games but he obviously psyches himself out.
Oh I forgot about him rolling over a completely terrible NA Zerg.
What I find so funny with Idras mentality is that he expects everyone to play perfectly always. Yet we see the winner of the entire tournament destroy his own command center out of nowhere, we see Naniwa use /dance in MCs base instead of getting things done before the dark shrine is done building, we see MC missing a nydus worm being constructed in his field of vision, losira throwing away 30 lings into mmas siege tank line in the finals etc. People make mistakes. It happends all the time and especially in a game that's so demanding on multitasking. He does it too, so why is he so adamant that none other does it?
If he had some resemblence of stayer ability, he could've been great. While as it is right now, I don't think he was even the best foreigner at the tournament. I think even Thorzain did a better showing then he did, and proved to be the better with the way he gave even mc a hard time.
On June 07 2011 00:51 OrangeSoda wrote: i hope idra finally learns from his game vs huk and mma about leaving early, stick it out until your whole army dies because you never know.
I think he was following that rule but messed up and stuck it out only untill MMAs whole army was dead.
On June 06 2011 13:29 HollowYoshi wrote: IdrA seems like his own worst enemy most of the time. I respect the guy and he definitely played phenomenally this weekend, but I swear he kills himself more often than his opponents do... O_O
Played phenomenally? What Idra did you watch? He played well on Friday. He did not win a single game on any of the next two days, and he played TERRIBLY versus MC on Sunday. Absolutely embarrassing from a top foreigner.
This tourney highlighted just how far the gap is between Korea and the West - the top foreigners got absolutely blasted by Koreans at MLG.
He beat Slush decisively 2-0 on Sunday.
I don't know what goes on in IdrA's head during these games but he obviously psyches himself out.
Oh I forgot about him rolling over a completely terrible NA Zerg.
Lets see.
Slush beat: Gretorp, Moon, and Naniwa in pool play.
Then he beat Fenix (whom had rolled his way through like 7 zergs, including Morrow and Vibe) & Ret.
Not a bad showing I'd say. Clearly you are mad your hero got rolled by Koreans.
I watched that Match. I didn't stop laughing for 25 minutes.
The single best moment of MLG. 3 Shotting his third base landing at the gold. It was a 6 second process. After each volley Day 9's reaction was Dramatic, Then the Final volley, I coudn't believe my eyes.
I mean i've picked off my own units at times, maybe a structure here and there. Maybe canceled an expand when I didn't mean too.
But MMA topped it off. JUST CLASSIC.
Then the game goes on, I was saying to myself wow if Idra Losses, with the gold up, 4 bases vs 2 base. He can Mass Mutas so hard with the double Rich vespenes. This is gonna be one big flock of mutas.
Then MMA pushes out, Some explosions here and there. Tanks blow up.
AND THE GG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That was the most epic game in pro Sc2 of alllllll time!
Idra had such a Amazing Day 1, something must have gotten in his head big time to play as poorly has he did on day 3. It happens and i'm over it now...
Remember he still placed 4th over all and was the top foreigner.
The article is on something actually(intended or not intended), idra "losing" in crazy manner (gging) gives him much more attention than winning games (twitter/community response/sensationalism). All this attention is so much positive effect for MLG / other tourneys / his team etc. that i wouldnt cross out the possibility for him to be bribed to do something stupid in some time because apparently its much more desired by industry.
On June 06 2011 13:59 Zhyq wrote: Really guys? You really argue that it was lack of mental strength that led IdrA to those loses? I would strongly suggest it was that exact mental strength that shined. It is remarkable to see a player who is able to foresee 5-6 moves ahead and -know- whether (under perfect play from both sides) he will win or lose.
As said earlier, if MMA had the OC at the gold base up and running, he'd have another round of reinforcements which would defeat IdrA. In a scenario that MMA plays perfect and IdrA plays perfect as well, after that last battle, IdrA loses. Why wait it out when you know the outcome?
As far as the MC games are concerned, again IdrA would lose 3 out of 4 of them eventually (again given no mistakes from MC). However, IdrA could have easily won game 4 if he had teched a bit better, rather than remaining stuck with hydra/roach/corruptor forever. That you can fault him on.
Now, one can say that IdrA was tired and didn't make proper decisions as far as his STRATEGY was concerned, and indeed I believe that this was the case. Still, I feel IdrA is not being appreciated for his greatest strength, that is, his ability to read the game flow.
It is a feat of extremely high intelligence to be able to know if you've lost 10 minutes before you do, and that should be recognized rather than criticized.
Except people are human and make mistakes so you can comeback even after being at a disadvantage.
idra gives up way too easily, I get it - if you are in an unwinnable game there's not much point but this is now his career he should take it more seriously and put more passion into his games, who knows maybe he will actually win
really - the StarCraft-gods threw away a quite big chunk of skill, by giving it to Idra - thats the only sad thing about it. This whining boy never even try a comeback when put behind, i am quite happy to see him error like that, because he has no manners (like his mirrorimage MC). If he may step up in manners, i would really get a fan and wish he might at least try to get a game turn around.
idra had 5 mutas in prod and over 20 zerglings............ It appears clear to me that IdrA was "mentaly" tired. It was a long tourney with plenty of Big games. These are mistakes that happen to the best of the best. But as a fan I hope IdrA learns to fight his way through victory and not abandon hope that easily!
All these times Idra has been leaving without saying GG, and we all thought it was just BM.
Now we know the truth. Idra is just simply confused about when you are supposed to GG. Somebody should get the word out to him ASAP that you gg when you lose the game. When you win the game, wait for the other person to say gg and leave first.
- IdrA saw that MMA was only just building his gold when he went in for the attack - IdrA saw that the size of the drop was small when he ran all his drones away, and there was no way they could be killed that quickly
I seriously just don't understand. Everything could have been so different
It's not a matter of asymmetrical information or Idra "respecting" his opponent too much to make him play out a won game. It's Idra's mind set. He goes in expecting to lose to great players. What's lost in this discussion is how absurdly well MMA did in that battle. Idra was maxed with a TON of banelings and muta, and when it was over, EVERYTHING Idra had on the ground was dead. Then there was the simultaneous drop that Idra didn't clear out effectively (but still managed to save all of his drones from). Idra was pissed because he'd played a fantastic game up to that point and then saw his army get murdered cost-effectively by MMA. If MMA hadn't killed his Orbital, he'd have probably had an advantage, and Idra didn't want to try to play against a terran with an advantage.
It's that last sentence that should really bug you if you're an Idra fan. He flat out refuses to play games where he's been delivered a setback. He assumes they're lost. He doesn't try to do anything crazy or risky or whatever to get back into it. He's unwilling to even TRY. And that's why I can't root for him, as insanely talented as he is. As amazing as it is to watch his macro. His mentality is so off-putting that even when it's "Only Foreigner Left in MLG vs. Korean", I have a lot of trouble pulling for him.
But you know what? He's like 22. So he's got time to figure out his head. And if he does, he can be the best. And if he manages to get there, I'll be rooting for him 100%.
On June 07 2011 03:14 GeorgeForeman wrote: It's not a matter of asymmetrical information or Idra "respecting" his opponent too much to make him play out a won game. It's Idra's mind set. He goes in expecting to lose to great players. What's lost in this discussion is how absurdly well MMA did in that battle. Idra was maxed with a TON of banelings and muta, and when it was over, EVERYTHING Idra had on the ground was dead. Then there was the simultaneous drop that Idra didn't clear out effectively (but still managed to save all of his drones from). Idra was pissed because he'd played a fantastic game up to that point and then saw his army get murdered cost-effectively by MMA. If MMA hadn't killed his Orbital, he'd have probably had an advantage, and Idra didn't want to try to play against a terran with an advantage.
It's that last sentence that should really bug you if you're an Idra fan. He flat out refuses to play games where he's been delivered a setback. He assumes they're lost. He doesn't try to do anything crazy or risky or whatever to get back into it. He's unwilling to even TRY. And that's why I can't root for him, as insanely talented as he is. As amazing as it is to watch his macro. His mentality is so off-putting that even when it's "Only Foreigner Left in MLG vs. Korean", I have a lot of trouble pulling for him.
But you know what? He's like 22. So he's got time to figure out his head. And if he does, he can be the best. And if he manages to get there, I'll be rooting for him 100%.
I stopped rooting for IdrA when he threw away his Code S spot in GSL 4 to go and play less profitable tournaments in the US.
i fail to see how after this weekend he still has a "Cool image" now im def not an Idra fan, but most definitely respectED his skill. sure hes still an amazing player but this weekend definitely shocked even me, i thought he was actually doing great, even being good mannered, then all this happened. i still dont understand why.
but Cool image is not something i would use to describe anything about Idra now.
On June 07 2011 03:22 Artimo wrote: i fail to see how after this weekend he still has a "Cool image" now im def not an Idra fan, but most definitely respectED his skill. sure hes still an amazing player but this weekend definitely shocked even me, i thought he was actually doing great, even being good mannered, then all this happened. i still dont understand why.
but Cool image is not something i would use to describe anything about Idra now.
Making mistakes in a tournament and losing to the likes of MMA and MC doesn't suddenly strip you of your 'cool image'.
On June 07 2011 02:20 Nocthem wrote: idra had 5 mutas in prod and over 20 zerglings............ It appears clear to me that IdrA was "mentaly" tired. It was a long tourney with plenty of Big games. These are mistakes that happen to the best of the best. But as a fan I hope IdrA learns to fight his way through victory and not abandon hope that easily!
What do you mean mentally tired? This was his first game of the day.
I thought about the gg timing. I thought about it and thought about it some more. Then it hit me how genius Idra is.
See, a good portion of Idra's image and bm is built on playing the weaker race. But one of the things that gets thrown back at him is how zerg's sure win a lot of tournaments for being so underpowered.
So, with Nestea winning the GSL and Idra and Losira doing so well in the MLG... he's see the walls closing in. No more underpowered race bm. No more 'carriers is a useful skill toi have.' No more "Isn't it funny, you won without doing a single thing"
So with hope fading for his imba bm, he saw a light. Why that 'g' key, so little used and yet looking ever so tempting... gg and now Idra's bm lives for another interview and another game.
On June 07 2011 03:02 ProxyKnoxy wrote: - IdrA saw that MMA was only just building his gold when he went in for the attack
I seriously just don't understand. Everything could have been so different
That might actually be the reason though. That he saw the gold being constructed, assumed it was a quick 4th instead of a slow 3rd so when his attack failed he thought it was 4bases for MMA and that would be terrible for idra.
Still retarded to just assume and leave though no matter what the reason was.
On June 07 2011 03:14 GeorgeForeman wrote: It's not a matter of asymmetrical information or Idra "respecting" his opponent too much to make him play out a won game. It's Idra's mind set. He goes in expecting to lose to great players. What's lost in this discussion is how absurdly well MMA did in that battle. Idra was maxed with a TON of banelings and muta, and when it was over, EVERYTHING Idra had on the ground was dead. Then there was the simultaneous drop that Idra didn't clear out effectively (but still managed to save all of his drones from). Idra was pissed because he'd played a fantastic game up to that point and then saw his army get murdered cost-effectively by MMA. If MMA hadn't killed his Orbital, he'd have probably had an advantage, and Idra didn't want to try to play against a terran with an advantage.
It's that last sentence that should really bug you if you're an Idra fan. He flat out refuses to play games where he's been delivered a setback. He assumes they're lost. He doesn't try to do anything crazy or risky or whatever to get back into it. He's unwilling to even TRY. And that's why I can't root for him, as insanely talented as he is. As amazing as it is to watch his macro. His mentality is so off-putting that even when it's "Only Foreigner Left in MLG vs. Korean", I have a lot of trouble pulling for him.
But you know what? He's like 22. So he's got time to figure out his head. And if he does, he can be the best. And if he manages to get there, I'll be rooting for him 100%.
I stopped rooting for IdrA when he threw away his Code S spot in GSL 4 to go and play less profitable tournaments in the US.
Haven't idra earned more from playing in the US already than he earned during all his GSL seasons? He got knocked out in ro32 twice and ro16 once if I'm not mistaken?
Round of 16: 2,000,000 KRW (aprox. $1710 USD) Round of 32: 500,000 KRW (aprox. $430 USD)
What to say? So many thoughts I have on this subject.
I believe that his constant complaining has prepped his attitude and mindset for this type of failure. To him every game is already a massive comeback from the beginning. So when things begin going wrong it just adds to his already impending sense of doom.
It sickens me, it really does. I would sacrifice so much to be in Idra's position. I don't have his talent, his knowledge, and I sure as hell don't have the time to commit to this game like he can. I can't do what he does. Sadly to play like Idra is something I can only do in my dreams. This is why it sickens me. I feel like I am Rudy watching one of his more talented but less willing teammates.
Winning is more then about talent, more then about balance, more then hard work. It is desire, it is heart. It is that one quality that Idra cannot claim to possess.
"You can’t coach heart, you can never coach desire, they must always come from within. Rules may be learned, and skill developed, But you cannot be taught the will to win. You must reach a little deeper to bring out your best, you must be your own motivation. Keep going, Never Quit, You have to find a reason. You are your own strength, Your own Motivation" The Will to Win by Melissa Underwood
Winning isn't everything, but the will to win is everything.-Vince Lombardi
"“Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strengths. When you go through hardships and decide not to surrender, that is strength.” Arnold Schwarzeneggar
"Winning isn't always finishing first. Sometimes winning is just finishing" Manuel Diotte
"The real winners in life are the people who look at every situation with an expectation that they can make it work or make it better”- Barbara Pletcher
"The determination to win is the better part of winning" Diasakue Ikeda
So to Mr. Greg Fields I beg to you, release the gracken
On June 07 2011 03:02 ProxyKnoxy wrote: - IdrA saw that MMA was only just building his gold when he went in for the attack
I seriously just don't understand. Everything could have been so different
That might actually be the reason though. That he saw the gold being constructed, assumed it was a quick 4th instead of a slow 3rd so when his attack failed he thought it was 4bases for MMA and that would be terrible for idra.
Still retarded to just assume and leave though no matter what the reason was.
On June 07 2011 03:14 GeorgeForeman wrote: It's not a matter of asymmetrical information or Idra "respecting" his opponent too much to make him play out a won game. It's Idra's mind set. He goes in expecting to lose to great players. What's lost in this discussion is how absurdly well MMA did in that battle. Idra was maxed with a TON of banelings and muta, and when it was over, EVERYTHING Idra had on the ground was dead. Then there was the simultaneous drop that Idra didn't clear out effectively (but still managed to save all of his drones from). Idra was pissed because he'd played a fantastic game up to that point and then saw his army get murdered cost-effectively by MMA. If MMA hadn't killed his Orbital, he'd have probably had an advantage, and Idra didn't want to try to play against a terran with an advantage.
It's that last sentence that should really bug you if you're an Idra fan. He flat out refuses to play games where he's been delivered a setback. He assumes they're lost. He doesn't try to do anything crazy or risky or whatever to get back into it. He's unwilling to even TRY. And that's why I can't root for him, as insanely talented as he is. As amazing as it is to watch his macro. His mentality is so off-putting that even when it's "Only Foreigner Left in MLG vs. Korean", I have a lot of trouble pulling for him.
But you know what? He's like 22. So he's got time to figure out his head. And if he does, he can be the best. And if he manages to get there, I'll be rooting for him 100%.
I stopped rooting for IdrA when he threw away his Code S spot in GSL 4 to go and play less profitable tournaments in the US.
Haven't idra earned more from playing in the US already than he earned during all his GSL seasons? He got knocked out in ro32 twice and ro16 once if I'm not mistaken?
On June 06 2011 13:29 edc.initiative wrote: I really like this change from IdrA. He used to be the guy who acted like a little child by raging after every lost. Now, as shown by MC's actions towards him, his opponents are actually the ones being rude assholes. IdrA looked way more professional and awesome when he said 'gg' after every loss, including the four games he lost in a row to his rival.
If there is one thing he needs to work on, it's his confidence.
Seriously? MC not only GGd Idra in the first game he lost, but GG WPd him.
Much as I find SC2 uninteresting, this is just too good to miss. Such a monumental fail. Love how the guy on the left looks like the bottom has fallen out of his world.
On June 06 2011 14:03 DannyJ wrote: Why wait it out when you know the outcome? There is none i guess... but Idra DOESNT know the outcome, as we have obviously seen multiple times.
True enough. But, wouldn't you agree that trying to figure out the outcome based on the information available is pushing for perfection? Among many other things that need to be perfected, of course. I'd argue that in the games you're referring to it was his information gathering that was lacking, not his ability to predict.
I would expect someone of the extreme intelligence you speak of to be able to determine when his information gathering is lacking. I would say that someone who attempts to predict a game based on limited information and then forfeits it believing he's going to lose is acting emotionally, not rationally.
Idra's gg's aren't about rational choices. There is no super intelligent decision making involved in it. If there was, he should be questioning his base assumption that his opponent will play perfectly and that his information about the current game is perfect. These decisions are more emotional than anything else, which was incredibly evident given how he performed against MC afterwards.
You seem to be under the impression many people play out games from behind simply because they're completely blind to the fact that they're behind. I'll bet you most pro's know when they're behind, but unless they're so hopelessly behind that their opponent could a move into their base and win, they will try to turn the game around.
On June 07 2011 03:49 Falling wrote: I thought about the gg timing. I thought about it and thought about it some more. Then it hit me how genius Idra is.
See, a good portion of Idra's image and bm is built on playing the weaker race. But one of the things that gets thrown back at him is how zerg's sure win a lot of tournaments for being so underpowered.
So, with Nestea winning the GSL and Idra and Losira doing so well in the MLG... he's see the walls closing in. No more underpowered race bm. No more 'carriers is a useful skill toi have.' No more "Isn't it funny, you won without doing a single thing"
So with hope fading for his imba bm, he saw a light. Why that 'g' key, so little used and yet looking ever so tempting... gg and now Idra's bm lives for another interview and another game.
Genius I tell you.
I don't think he lost intentionally, but I am disappointed that we missed out on seeing a newly-crowned-MLG-champion IdrA continue his schtick amongst such strong Zerg performance.
edit: The people trying to use this incident as proof that IdrA's gg timing is amazing are beyond help.
The theory that he lost to MMA on purpose to avoid ZvZ 'coin flip' match-up is interesting but I daresay negated by his gameplay vs MC the second go-around.
I just wish I was watching live so I could have had the same epic reaction as the crowd (especially that guy with his hands thrown up over his head!)
Though I probably would have been raging drunk by then and destroyed everything in sight once I realized what happened and woken up my entire family with all the screaming and noise.
Hope MMA's killing off his own OC makes Greg realize that even top players don't play perfectly (I thought one point of doing things like drops and attacking multiple locations simultaneously was to frustrate players so they slip up). Anyways would love to see some more good games in the future from IdrA like in day 1!
really got to say, this idra leaving early thing isnt just about him, the fans need to see a game too, and leaving like that, well lets just say the crowd was left in disappointment.
Why doesn't Idra at least a-move his stuff or something? It would cost him maybe 2 seconds, no mental fortitude required. What would you possibly have to lose?
And I don't buy the "respects opponents too much" excuse, because if that's true he's spent his entire career, BW and SC2, believing that he's the best in the world. If you're playing someone better, and he never makes a mistake, obviously you lose! gg no re
On June 07 2011 11:28 Redmark wrote: Why doesn't Idra at least a-move his stuff or something? It would cost him maybe 2 seconds, no mental fortitude required. What would you possibly have to lose?
And I don't buy the "respects opponents too much" excuse, because if that's true he's spent his entire career, BW and SC2, believing that he's the best in the world. If you're playing someone better, and he never makes a mistake, obviously you lose! gg no re
When did he believe he's the best in the world? Don't make me laugh...
On June 07 2011 11:28 Redmark wrote: Why doesn't Idra at least a-move his stuff or something? It would cost him maybe 2 seconds, no mental fortitude required. What would you possibly have to lose?
And I don't buy the "respects opponents too much" excuse, because if that's true he's spent his entire career, BW and SC2, believing that he's the best in the world. If you're playing someone better, and he never makes a mistake, obviously you lose! gg no re
When did he believe he's the best in the world? Don't make me laugh...
Quote from IdrA: "I trained in Korea for (blah) years, I'm not supposed to lose" (okay, not a direct quote - but he has said something to that effect on State of the Game before). Perhaps not "the best", but IdrA certainly believes in his own myth and thinks he as a right to win western tournaments.
...I kind of wish State of the Game was still running this season so we could hear IdrA's thoughts on the matter.
IdrA will never be the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft until he gets some f'ing heart and a fighting spirit. Just imagine if your favorite sports team/athlete just quit and walked off the field because they were down some points (which he wasn't in this scenario).
totally not surprised he did crap like that, he's been doing that for years. overrated. if he ever gets over his shitty attitude he might become good, but until then he will never be a champion.
On June 07 2011 12:24 Rybka wrote: IdrA will never be the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft until he gets some f'ing heart and a fighting spirit. Just imagine if your favorite sports team/athlete just quit and walked off the field because they were down some points (which he wasn't in this scenario).
Pretty lame. jmo.
You must be unfamiliar with Bobby Fischer then.
He was a huge whiner that set out ridiculous conditions at times or just plain quit at random times in tournaments, of course he just straight up left the chess during arguably the height of his talent.
But...that's where similarity ends because;
1) Fischer dominated the chess scene home and abroad 2) Fischer was extremely creative and invented new builds, IdrA just plays the same lines. 3) He actually won the world tournaments, IdrA has yet to win any of the major foreign tournaments and has difficulty even winning home tournaments.
So no, IMO IdrA will never be the American prodigy Fischer was. I don't think NA even has a sc2 prodigy in sight right now that will ever rise to that level. I don't think even the foreign scene has a player who will ever be a Korean slayer. Koreans are simply better, perfect is the standard there, aggression, cheese and quirky builds are the norm, having near perfect macro is just a fall back.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cnMRV.gif%22)
![[image loading]](http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9997/77707376.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7533/98098086.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9uNbN.png)
Completely uncalled for. 
(I once told her about the korean match fixing scandal and this reminded her of it)
