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On June 01 2011 04:43 Raid wrote:
Units that need fixing:
2.Mech : Really looks good on paper thor massive unit that outputs great damage, tanks bread and butter of mech, and helions cleaning up anything coming in but as we all see its terribly fragile, impossible to reproduce all of it once lost, gives no map presence, and its just horribad against protoss.
4. Terran & Protoss capital ships: dude the bc and carriers were glorified in all of bw history and its just this useless piece of crap in sc2. only function bc has is since tvt after air control is established since all terran aa is based on the marine the armor on the bc basically gives it that umph other than that all other races have sufficient aa to take out bc easy. Carriers are a joke because void rays pretty much took over their purpose in battles need to fix this unit somehow.
In BW the BC was only used in TvT. The New BC is crazy good compared to the old one and its faster. It can now be used to great effect in all match ups if used correctly.
In BW the Carrier was only used in PvT. The Carrier was used in response to the weakness mech had to air. Carriers would abuse the cliff that would give additional protection in BW(33 chance to miss. Something like that) against the ground walking Goliaths. Marines were great against Carriers but Terran never had any because they would always mech and wouldn't have any of the bio upgrades. Not to mention that the unit control and AI in BW was crap. That was the onlything that made them viable. Without this the actually sucked. In marines were viable in BW no one would have ever build carriers.
Carriers died when Blizzard decided to kill TvP Mech and made bio(marines) viable in TvP, and made Goliaths fly. Also when they took away the cliff mechanic.
Regarding mech. The real issue is supply, Protoss mobility and gas. You simply never have enough tanks vikings and hellions. Something has to give in this combinations. 4 collosi force 20 vikings. You need tanks to kill stalkers and advance forward, and you need enough hellions to kill zeals. But this supply issue can be fixed currently by pushing with PFs, Ghosts emp, and Ravens pdd.
PDD basically reduces the amount of Supply that is fighting by temporaly negating Stalkers, while PFs are short range tanks that cost no supply.
The problem becomes gas. Tank 125 gas, Raven 200 gas, Ghost 100 gas, Viking 75 gas, Double upgrades ALOT of gas, PFs 150 gas each.
Regarding mobility. Toss is so moblie with WG, collosi cliff, and Blink. Toss can simply pass your army with collosi, Stalkers and warps, Then use the collosi to spot and walk in your base. Blink in your base and deploy warp-pisms which are basically Free recalls.
Viable Yes, but hard as heck to execute.
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all the stuff that killed mech and the stuff that made the game so 1base allinnable
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
Roach / Stalker / Marauder -- I've written many months ago about this unholy trio deciding most competitive games, and sadly things haven't changed since then, regardless of any patches. Boring!
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
I think 3D is underused as it is. Designers are still too much on BW brainwave. Create more significant action in the Z-axis - units jumping (say, banelings jumping above a ball to fall in the middle of it), units fighting entirely underground with each other, units using buildings to move faster or jump higher by bouncing off them.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
!!! Optional crash-graphics for people with really bad computers !!! - say, the option to disable textures Please!!!
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
More AOE effects of more complex types and shapes (for units & buildings). I think AOE is still not explored enough in Blizzard's games and has the potential to make very mind-challenging situations. Add 3D element to the AOEs - say, height range of effect.
Also, inter-dependency between AOEs, other AOEs, certain units' abilities - so that positional play becomes more puzzle-like - say, if I place this AOE here first, then I can place that AOE there next, but not the other way around. You can create some sense of the infinite possibilities of simple board game problems (Go, Chess) - within Starcraft, dynamically and over free plane, as part of the whole other gameplay features.
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I just want defiler, its all i want, plague was so cool, dark swarm was so cool, consume was so cool, lurkers were amazing but seriously, give me back my hive tech caster, I love casters, they add micro and unit control to the game I want my defilers back.
Corrupters are boring as hell, reapers are stupid, I think ravens should have their cost reduced, or spell energy requirements reduced, or something because I think they are a cool unit that doesn't see enough use. Hydras are bleh bleh bleh, make them good again, or at least interesting I beg you.
As a zerg there is a couple things I want from a race design standpoint. Another early game option, something else to throw at our opponents early game other than what we have, make it so we don't have to get to Lair before we can harass, then maybe you can make lair research longer or something. As long as we don't have to have it to harass. I'm thinking along the roles that reapers or Helions fill. I'm not asking for a GG unit if you aren't prepared such as cloaked banshee, but something that can threaten and do serious damage if your opponent responds poorly.
The other thing is a way to control and command areas of the map, a way to set up an entrenched position, Terran does this with tanks mostly, as well as PF's on maps like Xel'naga where there is an expansion at a critical position. Toss does it, to a lesser extent with Colossus and FF, they set up a position that the opponent is afraid, and will try to refrain from, blatantly attacking into. Zerg has no way of controlling areas.
Also, add dynamic unit movement, make unit control harder.
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Uninteresting Units
Terran:
- Marauder
It just doesn't seem like a interesting unit. Like said before, it is an marine who has more HP but can't shoot up. It also looks ridiculous if you ask me, but that doens't matter now.
- Reaper
The reaper does not have any uses in Starcraft 2 anymore. You can use it as an fast scout and then it is useless. I don't think a redesign could save this unit. I always thought that spider mines could fit on a Reaper. It already uses explosives on buildings and even in the singleplayer you get an additional grenade upgrade. But using a spider mine in someones mineral line by just jumping in seems to strong, so that won't happen.
- Hellion
I don't think this unit is very interesting either. You can burn a lot of workers with it if you are lucky and get passed the defenses. But after that I don't think it has many uses.
- Thor
A big hero unit sounds pretty interesting. But having an ability that is not very useful and having a "lucky" anti-air attack seems pretty stupid. The anti-air seems to be made to counter mutalisks. But it only works if the zerg makes an micro mistake. You should win because you are the better player, not because your opponent makes more mistakes than you.
- Viking
At first, in the beta, I thought that vikings were pretty interesting. An anti-air unit with a large range (you can kite other air units with it.) But the thing that was the most interesting to me was that you could land them and harass mineral lines. Sadly this just isn't viable and is only just as an counter to Colossus, Brood Lords and other Vikings.
- Raven
A spellcaster with 1 usefull spell in my opinion. auto turrets are not really the reason people are making Ravens. HSM is also a spell that isn't really usefull because of its energy cost, the need to research it and the slow movement on it. The only things that are interesting are the PDD and the ability to detect cloacked/burrowed units.
Also people have mostly reactors on their starports, because medivacs are more usefull.
Protoss:
- Sentry
This unit is to important for the Protoss army. It dictates to much. Force Field is IMO the best spell in the game. I like Force Fields as an defensive spell, but as an attacking spell it dictates to much of the fight. It negates micro and makes melee units useless.
Even without the forcefield (lets make it 75 gas and you don't have to upgrade hallucination) I still think it is an incredible unit. It would be more of an support unit, were you have 3-4 sentries in your army instead of 9 in your first push.
- Immortal
It is just as the description by Blizzard. It has a role it shouldn't have at the moment. Incredible burst damage on 1 single target doesn't really work in a game were you have 100+ zerglings or an MMM-ball.
I'd like to see the Immortal as a real tank. Maybe guardian shield would be an interesting spell on the Immortal. That way it makes sure all the attention would be focused on the Immortal (Like a tank) It also benefits the rest of the army.
- Colossus
Everyone hates it. It's counter is an air unit. You make to much of its counter (Viking, Corrupter) you lose because you kill the Colossus but don't have a ground army. You dont have its counter (Viking or Corrupter) you lose because it melts everything in 2 seconds.
- Voidray
I don't really think this unit is that interesting. It is mostly used to surprise your opponent and hopefully you can kill a few key buildings/units.
Also I like the idea of a lot of small battles and groups of units darting in and out to get the better concave or the better terrain to fight on. This is the opposite of what the Voidray does, be in a long battle and it gets stronger over time.
- Mothership
The only real Hero unit in the game. It has almost no uses and people are most of the time prepared for it. I just want the Arbiter back.
Zerg:
- Baneling
Actually it is my favorite unit. It is exciting to watch, and can control the battle immediately if you control them well. The thing I don't like is that is needed to counter the balls of units. (Actually I really hate the giant balls of units, but without them the Baneling has probably no uses anymore.)
- Roach
Easy to mass and not really interesting. I think it should be a unit that is used in small groups to backstab armies or mineral lines. I like the burrow mechanic from the roach, but it isn't used the way I like it to be used.
- Hydralisk
Low health, really, really slow and high damage. It is like an expensive marine. But marines get stim. Can easily be dropped, are not that slow (Stim helps) and get healed.
I like the idea to change them with the roach. This would also help my idea for the roach to be more viable as a small pack of units to harass with.
- Ultralisk
Big and stupid movement. I just can't think off anything else when I think about the SC2 Ultralisk. I want the SC:BW Ultralisk back.
- Overseer
See Blizzard explanation. This is a unit I like to see removed. Give detection back to the Overlord
- Corrupter
Counters Colossus and makes Brood Lords. Thats it. Nothing interesting. I like to see this unit removed and make Brood Lords from Mutalisks.
Mechanics
- Creep
I don't like the creep mechanic. Instead of punishing the people who don't spread creep. It should reward the people that do spread creep.
- Warp Gates
I see 2 problems with the Warp Gate mechanic.
1. You can warp in, into your/next to your proponents base which removes defenders advantage.
2. In the late game when you have a lot of Warp Gates and Money it is just ridiculous how much you can warp in at 1 time, (See Boxer vs HasuObs in TSL)
- Larva Inject, Mules and Chronoboost
It seems like an ability to let people do something. The game is so much simplified that it seems Blizzard implemented some mechanics to let the top players do something. In SC:BW we didn't need special mechanics to be productive...
- balls of units.
It stimulates 1a syndrome and is just not fun to watch.This post explains what I want.
- Spellcasters
I miss interesting spells. With Forcefields, Storm, Fungle Growth or w/e I am not getting excited. I don't know what is missing directly or how to change this. But spells are just not as cool and fun as in SC:BW
Graphics
I don't really care about this...
What do I want?
It is pretty hard to say what you really want. At least it is for me. Everyone knows some interesting features, but they need to be balanced for competitive play. I like the most that the giant balls of units disappear. But if that happens, the whole game needs to be rebalanced since it is made around balls fighting other balls...
Note
Just take this all with a grain of salt since I am really bad at any game I play. I just like to watch and this are the points I dislike about viewing Starcraft 2.
Also English is not my 1st language, so it is hard for me to put exactly what I want to say on paper (or internet for this).
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Top three uniteresting units:
+ Show Spoiler +1) Roach - It does okay damage to ground units with no bonus damage and has a few burrow related things.. I honestly can't see why this unit is still even around. It doesn't do anything fancy or cool.
2) Marauders - Basically in same boat as Roaches but deal bonus to armored.
3) Colossi - Destroys pretty much every unit on the ground without much thought/input from the player using them.
A few mechanic changes:
+ Show Spoiler + MULEs are just glorified workers and don't really do anything cool or interesting (ie: chrono boost gives you a decision of what you want to focus on more heavily)
Larva inject is just required, it doesn't give you any decisions to be made with how to use it or when. You have to use it more or less as soon as it's up every time. (see chrono boost example)
Forcefield prevents movement in an area instead of making you want to enter/not enter an area, it just stops you. If Forcefield had an effect in the particular area (maybe slowed/slowed attack speed or something), I could see that being an interesting choice for the opponent; but as it stands right now you just put em down and that's it.
Fungal Growth is in a similar boat to Forcefield. It just stops them from moving and that's it. Needs a redesign.
Some new units or buildings?
+ Show Spoiler + I'd like to see a more burrow centric unit and one that controls space for Zerg and possibly some sort of siege unit (read: Lurkers). Zerg only has one spell caster right now (Infestors. Queens are more liken to Command Centers/Nexuses), and I feel like another would be a great addition.
I feel like Zerg and Protoss could use a few better air units as well as better anti air.
Pheonixes are useful sometimes, but aren't that common. Void Rays are in a similar boat. You hardly see Carriers because most races prepare for Colossi anyway (which require anti air), so they're one step ahead of you either way.
Mutalisks are great for harassment and Brood Lords are very good air to ground, but Corruptors are just plain awful; and you don't have anymore air options at all. Maybe a good all around air unit? (air to ground and air. Mutalisks aren't great at fighting other units)
I don't understand why people say Reapers aren't interesting and need to be removed. People seem to think they're only used as scouts or something along those lines. I'd say they're very similar to Mutalisks but better at taking out buildings. Make some when your opponent is spread out a lot and you can take out important buildings or tons of workers really fast while they're out on the map. Qxc seems to do this a lot and it works wonders in combinations with drops and nukes since they're likely to not catch everything going on.
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I just hope they take this opportunity to remove forcefield from the game, give protoss something else for early defence that is not imbalanced when used offensively.
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On June 01 2011 03:54 Crawler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:39 DeltruS wrote:
I disagree with people asking for the removal of FF and fungal. They don't remove micro because the force an opponent to micro against them. Flanks from 3 sides > forcefield, and so does burrow. Spreading units can prevent cost effective fungals. Flanks from 3 sides? You need a really great position on tournament custom maps to be able to do that. When protoss is in your base or in his own base then good luck with flanking. Fungal covers like 6-7 stalkers and 2 colossus max so am I supposed to split my 200/200 army to groups of 2-3 units and attack at the same time? Unless you have lonely units walking around it's impossible to be cost effective against fungal. You get hit by it and it's over. No ammount of micro or skill will help you come out of this situation. You can dodge storm but fungal causes damage on every unit (except ultralisk) and it immobilizes you.. It's pretty much a immobilizing storm that causes less damage. You can run after getting hit by storm or EMP but you can never run after getting hit by fungal. Dark swarm didn't force you to fight either in bw.
Flanks require the zerg to get an army which can control where the battle can take place. It takes a really good, tactical player to be able to force a player into a flankable position. Maps are also a factor. Just like a bunch of marines behind the mineral line, preventitive positioning is the best solution.
An example of fungal spreading would be CatZ vs Destiny last night. It was a maxed out broodlord/infestor/corruptor battle. Catz was extremely intelligent and went for a huge amount of corruptors, spreading them out into a 24 corruptor arc before the battle. He came out victorious in the first part of the battle, and could have retreated, morphing the corruptors into broodlords and winning the game, but he accidently grouped them up and got them fungalled. Essentially, he almost completely nullified Destiny's army, and would have, sans a small mistake.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
1. Mothership: It's basically a poor mans arbiter. Remove it and bring back the arbiter.
2. Collossus: Just remove it. Most boring unit in sc2 hands down.
3. Roach: Remove it, bring back T1 Hydras and Lurkers.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Remove Warp Gates: They are too hard to balance, and just screws too much with defenders advantage/basic strategic thinking.
Change unit AI to dynamic movement: Read the Dynamic Movement thread.
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United States7483 Posts
On June 01 2011 02:22 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 02:10 TheDougler wrote:
Useless units:
Overseer
Reaper
Carrier
Uninteresting units:
Colossus
Ultralisk
...There is no terran unit I find uninteresting Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, and reapers are the best scout unit in the game aside from the observer. I can agree that colossus are boring.
Thors beat carrier dps by a lot, as do a few other units.
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The thing about immortal is that it becomes almost obsolete once you have a robo bay. Colossus is better in every situation except ultras.
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Collosus.
The concept of having to counter it with air makes for more boring games and unit compositions imo.
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I play Zerg. Here's what I need to see:
Hydralisks: Make them a unit to be feared, rather than a unit to be easily hard-countered. You know how stimmed marines are a threat the whole game, in every matchup? It would be great if hydralisks filled a similar role.
Overseer: I actually like this unit and use it a lot. Yeah, it's basically just a scout, contaminate is awesome though - if you get a read on your opponent's timing, you can gum it up for hilarious results. If it were changed i'd like to see more harassment options like contaminate, or see contaminate buffed in some way.
Corruptor: A dumb unit that basically only exists to fight Colossus. Nobody uses BCs or carriers, ZvZ almost never makes it to brood lords. If you see a colossus and make too many corruptors, you die. If you make too few, you also die. the other races anti-massive and anti-air equivalents always have a backup use - vikings land, phoenix lifts, Corruption is terrible.
Queen: I think the Queen is my favorite unit, I wish it were more battle friendly. Upgrades for queen energy or movement in lair tech, I think, would add a good dimension to the game. I think there's a lot of queen/nydus/overlord play that would really make the game better, but nydus and queen just feel a bit handicapped.
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roaches marauders colossus,
they are just kind of an 1-a unit that doesnt require much control to be kick ass
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I think the collosus is uninteresting and needs some dynamic aspect to make it a better unit. This could involve changing the collosus, or it could involve giving the other races more interesting ways of dealing with collosi.
For example, if you gave collosus thor movement speed, it would be still very strong, but obviously much less mobile unless its carried around in a warp prism. It would be cool to see it work like a reaver where it has to be carried everywhere to be useful.
The corruptor is boring-sauce. It kills massive air units really hard, and does basically nothing else even close to useful. Give it spider mines or something, make it awesome. Or just remove it and nerf collosi so zerg doesn't need it so badly.
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Most uninteresting:
#1. Collosus
- So many arguments why it sucks. No micro, too easy to use, wrecks units that can't micro vs it, requires direct air counters.
#2. Corruptor
- Too expensive and boring imo. 20% from corruption is quite boring.
#3. Roaches
- I'd prefer if roaches had more health and greater damage but they were lair tech and costed more. Then they'd be real tanks which I think was the intention of blizzard.
edit:
In general, I'd like to see more risk/reward units that are actually viable.
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Another idea for a Zerg Unit (inspired by the picture of the Gorgling):
It'd be cool to have a zerg unit that dove tailed with zerg strengths (creating surface area/surrounding the enemy).
I'd like there to be a baneling type unit that functions similar to the Mountain King attack in WC3... it stuns momentarily and pushes units apart on impact.
That way these "Gorglings" could hit a Toss ball and push them all apart so Zerglings could get better surface area on them.
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Wow after reading the whole thread the general consensus is:
Units that are uninteresting:
1) Marauder
2) Roach
3) Collosi
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Actually I like the Overseer, I just want to see a buff to contaminate. Maybe it could stop the target's recharging energy in addition to its other effects, to be somewhat strong vs OCs and Nexi.
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On June 01 2011 06:07 GinDo wrote:
Wow after reading the whole thread the general consensus is:
Units that are uninteresting:
1) Marauder
2) Roach
3) Collosi
Its really interesting how EVERYONE seems to dislike the Collosi  .
Damn if it was removed or reworked in HOTS it would make me so happy :D
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EPT
