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On June 01 2011 00:52 Black Octopi wrote:
- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
Not going to respond to the rest of the OP as his/her terran comments were pretty silly.
Redesign: Corruptor, Mothership, Hydralisk, Colossus
- Corruptors are silly.
- I'd really really like to see arbiters in place of the mothership. Also vortex is not a very interesting spell and has caused a multitude of exploits.
- Hydralisk. I have a motto that if I build hydras, except to counter air, i'll probably lose. This usually turns out to be true. Also, the lack of AA for zerg at tier 1 is infuriating and terrible design.
- Colossus. I just find it boring to watch colossus. I also do not like the rock paper scizzors mechanic they create.
Tweak: Void Ray, Hellion, Raven
- Void Ray. Too strong in groups, but I also wish it could have some moving shot potential like banshees.
- Hellion... Blue Flame is too good at what it does, and not good enough at killing armored units. Blue Flame creates too much of a rock paper scizzors. And BFH drops are just way too strong against all races.
- Raven. Air casters in general need to be redone, but the raven doesn't help terran out at all. The science vessel gave terran mobility in BW. PDD/turret are not bad, but only work to help terran doing what it already does well - controlling space. The abilities are redundant in that fashion. And seeker missile just has no synergy with the rest of terran.
I feel like terran need better control in the air vs zerg. If I have 25+ mutas and control them well, Terran basically can't hold more than 3 bases. Brood War punished you for massing too much of the same unit, and thor is not the answer. I play zerg, I hate thor, and I understand the terran counter [pressure the zerg] but still feel it is a little unfair.
I'd like to see the movement redone with less clumping. Right now it's kinda funny - you spend a lot of micro making your units spread out. In BW I feel like it was the opposite. (You wanted them to clump more to get through chokes, setup a recall, and stop running around like idiots)
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Damn Baituri. I think you listed 75% of units in the game, haha.
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On June 01 2011 06:11 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 06:07 GinDo wrote:
Wow after reading the whole thread the general consensus is:
Units that are uninteresting:
1) Marauder
2) Roach
3) Collosi Its really interesting how EVERYONE seems to dislike the Collosi  . Damn if it was removed or reworked in HOTS it would make me so happy :D
Its just such a horrible unit (not from a balance perspective at all) that this would pretty much make the expansion for me.
Its seems pretty popular with the ultra casuals that blizzard wants to "reemphasize" though so I'm sure all we can hope for is some kind of tweak to it or its general functionality. Its really a tragedy because the casuals will all be gone in one-two years after LOTV and anyone still playing star2 will be stuck with such a cruddy unit if they don't change it at all.
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Collossus very boring easy to use unit, needs some sort of ability that makes it hard to use
Raven pdd is a great spell, but giving auto turrets to a slow gas sink made of paper is just absurd, auto turrets would be more suited to a unit like the reaper, raven also needs a better spell than seeker missle since a close range spell on a slow caster and does friendly fire and costs a lot of energy and can be micro'd away from is pretty worthless, seems like it could fill the role of a support unit
Mothership Getting this unit is so insulting it's a form of BM slow expensive spells very gimmicky
Dynamic unit movement would definitely add a great deal to the game
for terran i'd like to see some sort of use of the liftoff mechanic other than walls and add-on switching, something you'd bring into battle and support your units
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On June 01 2011 02:02 Crawler wrote:
Top 3 most uninteresting units in my opinion are:
1. Corruptor
2. Overseer
3. Colossus
(tbh I like every single unit in sc2 and bw but if you really want 3 units then maybe these are a bit less interesting and could use some changes)
Remove:
1) Marauder slow
2) Sentry ff
3) Infestor fungal
Why in the world would you remove most of the games spells that make it interesting at all? You're basically implying you want this to be A-movecraft 2: Heart of the click
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i basically with everything here, but im not optimistic about blizzard implementing any changes like this. these are not balance changes, the are massive changes in the game and would literally be like a new game, and while I and probably other would welcome some or all of these changes I dont see that happening : /
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Units to Tweak:
Colossi
Roach
Thor
Corruptor
Overseer
Marauder
Hydralisk
Reaper
Raven
Carrier
Mothership
Yea, more than three, but the Colossi, Roach, Thor, Marauder and Corruptor are all incredibly boring while the Overseer, Reaper, Raven, Carrier, Mothership and Hydralisk are fairly useless.
Mechanics to Tweak:
Pathing AI - The excessive clumping is the root of a lot of problems with SC2. Units need to not clump so much, and then we can have a lot of different changes happen to compensate, resulting in a far more interesting game.
Force Field - It is a cool idea but it's entirely too spammable and this, along with Concussive Shells and Fungal Growth, needs to be tweaked. Abilities that reduce mobility just aren't fun, to play with or watch. FF has especially caused a ton of problems. Protoss armies rely on it because their Gateway units are so weak and the Protoss army is really bad unless in a ball, but they are this way because of the fact that they have FF to spam.
Everything else is fine, I just really think they need to tweak units/mechanics.
Why in the world would you remove most of the games spells that make it interesting at all? You're basically implying you want this to be A-movecraft 2: Heart of the click
The problem is that those spells don't make the game interesting. They're very boring. Like I said, abilities that reduce mobility are just frustrating in general. They can be in place, but at this point they're entirely too commonplace.
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Uinteresting units:
Hydralisk
Viking (ground mode is rubbish)
Carrier
Warp prism
Blizzard, please give Protoss some good harass! Phoenix isnt that effective, warp prism is way to fragile and expensive (takes up valuable colossus build time) And dts are only effective in the extreme lategame.
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I really hope blizzard listens to professionals, and not anybody who posts here or in the blizzard forum. I couldn't take this thread seriously after the OP that was quite obviously terran biased. After that the thread is: GET RID OF THIS BLIZZ! I honestly wish that people would just keep their opinions to themselves. Because this game would probably be better if the community had less say in the balance.
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Are we getting trolled about terrans needing more drops?
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On June 01 2011 06:23 ArgosDelta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 02:02 Crawler wrote:
Top 3 most uninteresting units in my opinion are:
1. Corruptor
2. Overseer
3. Colossus
(tbh I like every single unit in sc2 and bw but if you really want 3 units then maybe these are a bit less interesting and could use some changes)
Remove:
1) Marauder slow
2) Sentry ff
3) Infestor fungal
Why in the world would you remove most of the games spells that make it interesting at all? You're basically implying you want this to be A-movecraft 2: Heart of the click
They're all abilities that basically immobilize your opponent and remove any chance of having a real 2-sided micro battle. At best, you have a short dance prior to the battle for ghost vs sentry/ht or whatever, and after that, just watch your units die or spread out and steamroll depending on that first bout. The side that's been boxed in FFs or Fungal can't just cut his losses and leave because he has to hope to still do some damage with the rest of his army to even out the trade, and the side that was victorious with their casts has no reason to do anything other than a-click and wait. So you just have army vs army auto spread and autotargeting each other until one dies. That is "a-movecraft" imo. This is one of the core problems with SC2 as a competitive game and spectator sport.
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On June 01 2011 06:14 Mikilatov wrote:
Damn Baituri. I think you listed 75% of units in the game, haha.
Yes, because I think a lot in this game is lacking. I just don't think a lot of units are interesting in the way they are right now. A lot of units have just 1 purpose and can't be used in another way. Which is pretty bad.
Although I enjoy watching SC2 (At least 4-6 hours a day) I don't think I will do this for another 5-10 years if the game stays like this.
I think it was Day9 that said this, maybe it was somebody else. Every unit needs to feel overpowered and imbalanced. You need to have feeling when you are watching/controlling a unit that it is the most interesting thing on the playing field. And with a lot of units I do not get that feeling.
Like i said, it is hard for me to really put this into words, because it is not really clear for myself what I dislike about a lot of things. Also I think if you look at all the posts together, I just made a list with all the units that are called by the people. It just happens to be I dislike them all, or other people just listed the 3 of them.
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I read the OP, if you are going to try to make an informed post and actually add something please dont have that much terran bias, jesus christ.
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Units I would tweak:
Corruptor
Colossi
Roach/Hydra
Corruptor and Colossi are just plain boring for both players and spectators. You can't really do much with them except 1a or focus something, corruption is a joke. Please revamp them in a way that they are not as effective out of the box but let them scale a little bit with micro/give them something interesting for the game.
Corruptor look kinda cool atleast.
And I still find Roaches really boring and dull and would prefer Hydras as the massable unit and Roaches as some kind of t2 tank/ambush unit.
Right now Roaches scale too well with upgrades imo and make Hydras obsolete, there is rarely a reason to choose Hydras over Roaches.
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On June 01 2011 04:20 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 04:17 SpaceToaster wrote:
- What are your top 3 uninteresting units in the game?
Viking/Thor - Theres no good mech antiair, and vikings are pretty uninteresting to fill that gap. Thors are also pretty boring.
Colossus - Creates the most boring unit dynamic in the game. Would honestly be okay without the range upgrade, but even then its still a boring A-Move unit.
Roaches - They just don't fit with the zerg swarm concept. Another boring AMove unit.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Fungal Growth - Snares have no place in Starcraft. Maybe change it to a slow, but slows don't really have a place in Starcraft either.
Colossus - As above, the viking/colossus dynamic is really lame, and poorly designed.
Warp-In - Removes defenders advantage, reduces the effective size of maps. Would be okay if it was a building with entrances/exits like nydus, but that would homogenize the races somewhat.
Forcefield - The thing that made spells great in BW was that both players could micro and the spells effectiveness depended on how well both players handled it. SC2 spells like fungal and FF make it extremely one sided and pretty boring.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
None really, the game looks fine. Maybe some changes to custom game browser, to make it more like Bnet1.0
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
Reavers - Would encourage warp prism play, and are all around more fun than Colossus.
Lurkers - Allow for Z to hold ground, maybe only allow burrow on creep (since creep can spread everywhere easily in SC2)
Scourge - More fun than corrupters.
Goliaths and Wraiths - To replace Thors/Vikings. Gols could require Armory but not Techlab, making them the meat of a mech army. Wraiths have great synergy with banshees. Vikings could replace goliaths in their alpha state, where they were built from the factory with a ground to air attack, but flight was an upgrade at starport. Yeah man removed BW units > New SC2 units for the most part xd.
To be fair I'm not against them coming out with completely new units, but they're the professionals, so I'm not gonna try my hand at new units. I do think the removed units were better than some of our current options.
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Boring/Unintersting Units
Protoss
- Collosus: Obviously not much to add here. Powerful unit to make up for crappy gateway units. Protect at all costs.
- Carrier: Hard countered too easily. Marines shred interceptors to bits, and if they have a starport and a reacter handy (read: every game) you've just spend 20~ minutes wasting your time.
- Immortal: All round useless. Only good against Ultralisks and sucks against everything else, even the 'supposed' units it counters. Also built out of the Robotics Facility, while the Dragoon wasn't, I guess current Protoss engineers aren't as good as their forefathers.
Terran
- Viking: A 9 range no-upgrades-required flying unit which counters everything in the air and can be reactered out in a moments notice. Also kills Collosus. Nice.
- Marine: Too good against everything. It costs 50 minerals, 1 supply and no tech. Pretty good.
- Marauder: Kills everything with 'Armoured' in its description.. and you can't run away from it.
Zerg
- Roach: 1a 1a 1a. Damaged? Burrow to heal. Splendid.
- Overseer: Dumb unit. I mean, I can see why they removed detection from Overlords (to make cloaked units actually effective v Z) but I kind of like that -Zerg- trait. But on the other hand Corsairs were actually pretty mean. So..
- Infestor: Spawn Infested Terrans? Zzz. Fungal Growth? Well you see, I use this ability, click on your army, and not you can't move and take 100% guaranteed damage. Which also sets me up for the next click. Awesome.
*Stalkers/Marauders/Roaches, all tier 1.5, all armoured, all fast, high hp.. wait what race am I supposed to be playing here?
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On June 01 2011 06:39 mewby wrote:
I read the OP, if you are going to try to make an informed post and actually add something please dont have that much terran bias, jesus christ.
Except the post does a pretty good job of encouraging discussion and doesn't force his bias on anyone. He's basically just asking for opinions and presenting his own.
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Immortals suck? Stalkers boring? Keep sentries but remove FF? What are you people smoking?
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I think the most uninteresting unit from each race would be:
Thor
Roach
Colossus
The Thor has pretty much been nerfed to oblivion. I think they should take out roaches all together and make the hydralisk more like it's Brood War counter part. I think that'd be so much better for the race. The design behind the Colossus isn't very good to begin with.
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Colossus: needs to be removed from the game, this unit does not increase in effectiveness as the skill level of the Protoss player increases (terrible design). This unit is overpowered in choke low skill situations, and underpowered in open high skill situations (bad balance design). This unit has also made Gateway severely underpowered compared to other races Tier 1 which leaves the game predetermined and boring.
Infestor: Started out as a great unit but it was found that this units ability to hold air units in place was overpowered. Now its the ultimate unit in the game that counters everything except tanks emp and feedback.
HT: started out underpowered and useless at the begining of the game because of effectiveness of colossus and the necessity of having AoE against stim marines or you free lose. However once the skill levels increased and the failings of the colossus became apparent HT took a life of their own, unfortunately blizzard determined that low masters players can't possibly emp via 10 range before an ht psi storms from 6 range. Archon change was necessary for a long time but currently Colossus/Archon is the way to go because HT still can't hold their own.
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EPT
