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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:10 Daralii wrote: And unupgraded gateway units would be nigh worthless without it. If you remove FF you would have to significantly buff gateway units, which would in turn make early attacks from P too strong due to warp gates. Which is why you also remove warpgates. | ||
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chainheart
United States24 Posts
On June 01 2011 03:44 Samhax wrote: -No more a-move boring unit like colossi, fail unit is fail. Colossus=siege tank without siege mode+cliffwalk+insane speed, it require nothing special to be use efficiently, no positionning, no cute micro, no caution. I was playing around with the Colossus in the editor and made Extended Thermal Lance a Siege ability where it couldn't move. So basically normal range when moving, and increased range when in siege mode. Seems like something that could work but you never know, maybe they should just kill the unit for good.... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
 and I like that blizzard comment:personally I think there are some things/units that should be changed + Show Spoiler + - colossus: protoss armies can live without the colossus in its current form, yet those armies make the fights a gamble, just like jinro wrote: you can either win by crushing the colossi, or you instantly lose (and I don't like this principle) another thing I don't like: Protoss have the on of the best antiarmor units in the game (immortals) but noone gets them, as colossus do the job nearly as good if not even better vs "medium" armored units (marauder, roaches, tanks, stalker) - overseer: just like blizzard said, it is a glorified scout. they either have to be changed or removed - mothership: it is designed to be a lategame superunit, yet if it were a superunit, the whole protossrace would have to get balanced down, as a maxed protoss with mothership would just be unbeatable - maybe give roach/hydra switching another chance (which they did a lot before the beta). T1 universal hydras, T2 mighty roaches opposed to T1 "you need them but they suck lategame" roaches, T2 "if they were strong zerg would be imba, because a strong universal unit + larvamechanic is broken" hydras. remove the queens AA-attack if you want... units I would like to see: + Show Spoiler + Zerg: T2.5 unit that is good when massed, not necessarily the lurker. maybe a "HydraKing" that buffs units around him, or a "Roachdralisk", with the head of a roach and the tail of a hydra, morphed from those two, with both attacks... Terran: a 4th factory unit, maybe steal the IBF from C&C so you can put biounits in it, and it varies with the unit that uses it (marine would be a gattlingtank or something like that, marauder a rocketbuggy, an SCV a repairvehicle etc... )Mechstyles really need something to battle Protoss efficiently, and that is not hightech to battle mutas. Protoss: maybe another harrassment unit, something thats not completly shut down by static AA-def. (phoenix, dt's) maybe a zealot warp upgrade, that warps zealots from a pylon to a pylon I think armywise Protoss has enough options right now, and P-armies are pretty universal and scary as they are. currently Protoss styles are too army based imo, there is little harass, a lot of turteling, and then 1-2big engagements mechanics: + Show Spoiler + injections take too much focus in the lategame, maybe make queens autoinfuse lairs, or a queenupgrade or something, because beginning with ~4hatcheries nearly every pro starts to miss a lot of injections. I know this is controverse, but I think there can be an in-between solution, so you still have to focus, but you are really able to ignore injection for a minute inbattle, and not go like either: "yeah I won the battle, but I have no larva to use my advantage" or: "damn I didn't micro at all in this battle, and all the units Im building with those fresh larva will just run in and die..." | ||
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
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Raid
United States398 Posts
1. Reaper : Reminds me of the vulture sometimes but is so gas expensive early game that it sets you back on tech, if it had some sort of spidermine capability to drop mines so you can turtle then maybe the reaper will once shine again 2.Mech : Really looks good on paper thor massive unit that outputs great damage, tanks bread and butter of mech, and helions cleaning up anything coming in but as we all see its terribly fragile, impossible to reproduce all of it once lost, gives no map presence, and its just horribad against protoss. 3. Phoenix: WTEF? who the heck makes a unit in sc2 and decides to let it attack on move command wtf is piece of crap. Corsair took skill, phoenix is just a gimmick for noob friendly users that want to imitate corsair use in bw days. 4. Terran & Protoss capital ships: dude the bc and carriers were glorified in all of bw history and its just this useless piece of crap in sc2. only function bc has is since tvt after air control is established since all terran aa is based on the marine the armor on the bc basically gives it that umph other than that all other races have sufficient aa to take out bc easy. Carriers are a joke because void rays pretty much took over their purpose in battles need to fix this unit somehow. Units that need to be removed 1. Collosus: needs to go, dictates every battle, is way too overpowered as one unit to make up for all protoss gateways that it pretty much screws up pvp. way too easy to use. They need to somehow change this unit or scrap it its just in every matchup... with the same unit compositions 2. Roach needs the boot, stupid low range armored unit that is ridiculously cheap to produce i doubt blizzard will ever remove this unit but seriously hydra+lurker is way sexier than this piece of crap. Roach does not fit zerg at all. 3. Marauder basically was made because roaches were overpowered back in beta but basically is not a very terran like unit. Bring back the firebat scrap this monstrosity or remake it. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
mistype, corrected post | ||
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:55 nvs. wrote: Colossus. It's the root of all SC2's problems. >.> Seriously, the Collosus is such a terrible unit IMO, and not just for balance. It's so boring, it's just a 1a unit. It also sucks in small numbers and owns in bigger numbers, but has a long tech and build time. On top of that, it's so strong Blizzard had to compensate and make gateway units weaker. This just seems to lead to boring gameplay where Protoss doesn't really have a good midgame vs Zerg and can't push out other than to do an all in because they'll get outmacroed, or risk losing their collosus and thus the game. As a result, the optimal Protoss strategy has become turtling on 3 bases and not moving out or really doing anything until that deathball is obtained. If you look at how dynamic and eventful a matchup like TvZ is, ZvP and PvT can often put you to sleep. Also, I've always felt there's something wrong with a unit that's so good you need to make like 10 fairly costly units just to take it out On June 01 2011 04:41 Abusion wrote: I think the biggest problem is the damage output of nearly all of the units is too much.. If all the units damage output was decreased in some way then micro would be a bigger input in the game due to the fact that you could see you're units dying and then pulling away instead of seeing your units dyi.. oh they're dead... I kinda like this idea too. Brood war seemed to have way more micro during a battle, while starcraft 2 micro is mostly about setting up and positioning before a battle occurs. There's nothing wrong with that, but it might be an improvement to make that other element of micro more prominent. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:50 TheSubtleArt wrote: Seriously, the Collosus is such a terrible unit IMO, and not just for balance. It's so boring, it's just a 1a unit. It also sucks in small numbers and owns in bigger numbers, but has a long tech and build time. On top of that, it's so strong Blizzard had to compensate and make gateway units weaker. This just seems to lead to boring gameplay where Protoss doesn't really have a good midgame vs Zerg and can't push out other than to do an all in because they'll get outmacroed, or risk losing their collosus and thus the game. As a result, the optimal Protoss strategy has become turtling on 3 bases and not moving out or really doing anything until that deathball is obtained. Also, I've always felt there's something wrong with a unit that's so good you need to make like 10 fairly costly units just to take it out I agree that the Collosus in terrible, but didn't blizzard say they made gateway units weaker because of the Warpgate research? | ||
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Kinetik_Inferno
United States1431 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:50 TheSubtleArt wrote: Seriously, the Collosus is such a terrible unit IMO, and not just for balance. It's so boring, it's just a 1a unit. It also sucks in small numbers and owns in bigger numbers, but has a long tech and build time. On top of that, it's so strong Blizzard had to compensate and make gateway units weaker. This just seems to lead to boring gameplay where Protoss doesn't really have a good midgame vs Zerg and can't push out other than to do an all in because they'll get outmacroed, or risk losing their collosus and thus the game. As a result, the optimal Protoss strategy has become turtling on 3 bases and not moving out or really doing anything until that deathball is obtained. Also, I've always felt there's something wrong with a unit that's so good you need to make like 10 fairly costly units just to take it out Colossus is art driven. You can't not have a giant, towering war of the worlds robot in the game once the artist have the concept. The idea of the colossus was fundamentally inappropriate for sc2 from the very beginning, and blizzard has forced it to work, when it shouldn't have. That's why it's the root of all of sc2's problems. No unit above tier 1 should appear in every single matchup all the time and become standard. The game should have tech options, not have one be innately superior, and choosing the other tech options is simply obsolete and not cost efficient in high numbers. | ||
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kvn4444
1510 Posts
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
Yeah but I don't see bigger changes coming before HOTS. Maybe just nerfing the colossus and buffing the immortal could do the trick, but what I really want to see in the long term is the focus on Immortal's shields - which is IMO a nice but undeveloped feature: atm nobody cares, at best Immortals are microed away from battle like every other unit... and that's failed design. I'd really like to see a unit/structure/ability similar to the Shield Battery. It was underused in BW since there wasn't a clear sinergy with any unit; now we have Hardened Shields and nothing to exploit them. (edit: it could also grant a REAL defender's advantage in PvP) | ||
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hasuterrans
United States614 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:43 Raid wrote: Units that need fixing: 1. Reaper : Reminds me of the vulture sometimes but is so gas expensive early game that it sets you back on tech, if it had some sort of spidermine capability to drop mines so you can turtle then maybe the reaper will once shine again 2.Mech : Really looks good on paper thor massive unit that outputs great damage, tanks bread and butter of mech, and helions cleaning up anything coming in but as we all see its terribly fragile, impossible to reproduce all of it once lost, gives no map presence, and its just horribad against protoss. 3. Phoenix: WTEF? who the heck makes a unit in sc2 and decides to let it attack on move command wtf is piece of crap. Corsair took skill, phoenix is just a gimmick for noob friendly users that want to imitate corsair use in bw days. 4. Terran & Protoss capital ships: dude the bc and carriers were glorified in all of bw history and its just this useless piece of crap in sc2. only function bc has is since tvt after air control is established since all terran aa is based on the marine the armor on the bc basically gives it that umph other than that all other races have sufficient aa to take out bc easy. Carriers are a joke because void rays pretty much took over their purpose in battles need to fix this unit somehow. Units that need to be removed 1. Collosus: needs to go, dictates every battle, is way too overpowered as one unit to make up for all protoss gateways that it pretty much screws up pvp. way too easy to use. They need to somehow change this unit or scrap it its just in every matchup... with the same unit compositions 2. Roach needs the boot, stupid low range armored unit that is ridiculously cheap to produce i doubt blizzard will ever remove this unit but seriously hydra+lurker is way sexier than this piece of crap. Roach does not fit zerg at all. 3. Marauder basically was made because roaches were overpowered back in beta but basically is not a very terran like unit. Bring back the firebat scrap this monstrosity or remake it. I actually agree with a lot of this post. Colossus ruined protoss. I can't believe they choose the colossus over reavers during the alpha builds though it makes perfect sense in a World of Warcraft type of way: a-move unit vs unit that requires significant micro and skill. Personally I'm fucking tired of making vikings every TvP and going MMM but no other unit composition is as effective versus protoss. And thors now get feedbacked? Lol, thanks blizzard you could have just removed strike cannons.. They really should have kept the lurker in some form; it was an awesome defensive unit for zerg that required both significant micro and detection to over-come. Lurkers gave the zerg defensive options that just don't exist in any similar way in SC2. Sure baneling landmines are fun, but they're one shot use only and they're not ranged. Lurkers > baneling landmines for defensive purposes any day. A few lurkers positioned correctly on a ramp required nothing less than siege tanks (or defensive matrix + good micro) to bust. Also, why did Blizzard make units handle so poorly in SC2? It would be nice if something had decent acceleration so you could do micro similar to muta and vulture micro from BW. R.I.P. spider mines. | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
Reapers - useless except for 30s of scouting Corruptors - extremely boring, there were no units in SC1 that were part of core compositions that did only 1 thing. This was a result of lots of the hard counter tech units being inefficient in the matchup. You didn't get carriers or BC vs Z, so Z didn't need devourer and P didn't need scout. Valk was also generally underused. Overseers - This unit is an entire slot? Hydralisks - roach is the hydralisk from BW, hydra is basically the equivalent of a stim marine for DPS. Very much not exciting. I think protoss is fine overall. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:40 Big J wrote: I like that thread and I like that blizzard comment:personally I think there are some things/units that should be changed + Show Spoiler + - colossus: protoss armies can live without the colossus in its current form, yet those armies make the fights a gamble, just like jinro wrote: you can either win by crushing the colossi, or you instantly lose (and I don't like this principle) another thing I don't like: Protoss have the on of the best antiarmor units in the game (immortals) but noone gets them, as colossus do the job nearly as good if not even better vs "medium" armored units (marauder, roaches, tanks, stalker) - overseer: just like blizzard said, it is a glorified scout. they either have to be changed or removed - mothership: it is designed to be a lategame superunit, yet if it were a superunit, the whole protossrace would have to get balanced down, as a maxed protoss with mothership would just be unbeatable - maybe give roach/hydra switching another chance (which they did a lot before the beta). T1 universal hydras, T2 mighty roaches opposed to T1 "you need them but they suck lategame" roaches, T2 "if they were strong zerg would be imba, because a strong universal unit + larvamechanic is broken" hydras. remove the queens AA-attack if you want... units I would like to see: + Show Spoiler + Zerg: T2.5 unit that is good when massed, not necessarily the lurker. maybe a "HydraKing" that buffs units around him, or a "Roachdralisk", with the head of a roach and the tail of a hydra, morphed from those two, with both attacks... Terran: a 4th factory unit, maybe steal the IBF from C&C so you can put biounits in it, and it varies with the unit that uses it (marine would be a gattlingtank or something like that, marauder a rocketbuggy, an SCV a repairvehicle etc... )Mechstyles really need something to battle Protoss efficiently, and that is not hightech to battle mutas. Protoss: maybe another harrassment unit, something thats not completly shut down by static AA-def. (phoenix, dt's) maybe a zealot warp upgrade, that warps zealots from a pylon to a pylon I think armywise Protoss has enough options right now, and P-armies are pretty universal and scary as they are. currently Protoss styles are too army based imo, there is little harass, a lot of turteling, and then 1-2big engagements mechanics: + Show Spoiler + injections take too much focus in the lategame, maybe make queens autoinfuse lairs, or a queenupgrade or something, because beginning with ~4hatcheries nearly every pro starts to miss a lot of injections. I know this is controverse, but I think there can be an in-between solution, so you still have to focus, but you are really able to ignore injection for a minute inbattle, and not go like either: "yeah I won the battle, but I have no larva to use my advantage" or: "damn I didn't micro at all in this battle, and all the units Im building with those fresh larva will just run in and die..." In reference to your mechanics suggestions. The answer has been present since day 1. Make more hatcheries. BW didn't have queens so people build tons of hatcheries. Zergs now should do the same. And don't complain about the cost. Protoss and Terran have to spam their production facilities, especially terran. And that can get expensive. Extra hatcheries don't even cost any gas. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 01 2011 05:11 GinDo wrote: In reference to your mechanics suggestions. The answer has been present since day 1. Make more hatcheries. BW didn't have queens so people build tons of hatcheries. Zergs now should do the same. And don't complain about the cost. Protoss and Terran have to spam their production facilities, especially terran. And that can get expensive. Extra hatcheries don't even cost any gas. well I would like to add, that I would prefer an injection nerf, over any other solution. Just make injections less powerful and make some slight balance changes, so zerg gets a little less reactive. mass hatcheries are not really a solution because queens are SO powerful early on(6larva/min vs 4larva/min) and usually you can't fit in a lot of hatcheries in the midgame, so you don't have them in the lategame just my opinion | ||
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procyonlotor
Italy473 Posts
This way, you could make protoss drops viable, by using two arbiters - one to call in, one to call out - and it also gives you grounds to eliminate the warp prism or at least change its core design. I agree with removing colossus from the game. It is the unit to have. It would seem to me that each tech path - air, templar, robo - should be useful in every matchup. Instead, we have colossi every game, while templar and air only join the fray in the later part of the game and always when you are already supported by colossi. I could see stalkers becoming a harass unit and being replaced by a more dragoon-ish unit, maybe change the immortal. That way the only robotech unit you keep is the observer and that leaves you room to add some new units. I also would like to see gateway units not relying on the sentry so much. Just my thoughts on protoss, since that is the race I know best. (And reapers and corruptors really do need to be reworked! And give zerg a new t1.5 unit and caster in t2, and a new flyer. And maybe move hydras further down the tech tree but making them weaker to compensate for it, to the point where a zerg player has strike up a balance between number of roaches and number of hydras.) | ||
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