I find myself scratching my head as to why Blizzard seemed to make creep spread a little more hassle than it could have been. I understand that many of you readers must be scratching yours right now asking why I feel this way, as creep spreading is pretty linear in terms of execution.
When having one dedicated queen for creep spread, you will often times have a lot of tumors going every which-way. Or take for example when your creep becomes pushed back, or perhaps a tumor in the middle of your creep dies and you must supply a new one. This often causes an annoyance in a zerg's mindset.
Now instead of going into what I don't like about the creep spreading mechanics, let me tell you what I would like to see.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could sweep your creep tumors, both the active tumors and used ones, (while adding more around the edges with the shift key if need be) and then be able to spread all the tumors at once (while holding the shift key) AND being able to see the radius of where you can actually place those tumors?
Let me clarify with pictures (because I am a visual person) WHAT CREEP SPREAD LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW
WHAT CREEP SPREAD SHOULD LOOK LIKE
EDIT: If you are still lost in terms of what I am suggesting, please allow me to paste what other players have summarized to thwart confusion. + Show Spoiler +
Do you even understand his problem? If you select one Creep Tumor you can see where you can place the next one If you select two you wont get the range indicator.
All he wants is a range indicator for multiple creep tumors
How would you protoss/terrans feel if you had no Siegetank range indicator or pylon range indicator if you selected multiple of them... would be pretty dumb eh
When I double click, and get a lot of tumors to spread, sometimes I place them wrong because I can't see the limit of where they individually can all go to, and then the AI sometimes chooses the wrong one when you Click to spread. I like this idea a lot, and every Zerg player who has spread with 3 or 4 tumors selected at once MUST have thought about this.
edit: Yes. OP is simply saying that multiple selected tumors should all display a dotted line for their spread limits, just like the displayed siege tanks did. Wow.
LOL you guys read the thread ? Hes not asking for a e z mode button, he just wants creeptumors to show the radius when you have more than one selected. I was justing thinking about this too, it would be helpful but I don't think it'll be done
I agree on the radius. It appears when you select one tumor, but when you select some, you don't know where's the limit anymore. Clearly a fail from Blizzard imo.
Thank you for your time. Please leave a comment below with your thoughts and opinions. Remember say something constructive or just don't post at all <3 !
people who play zerg are beyond the limits of greediness, on top - No it won't be good idea, creep tumors are annoying enough for the other races as they are, cba making it easy for zerg to creep over the map in less then a minute
On May 29 2011 19:03 RAGEKalin wrote: people who play zerg are beyond the limits of greediness, on top - No it won't be good idea, creep tumors are annoying enough for the other races as they are, cba making it easy for zerg to creep over the map in less then a minute
Compelling and convincing argument from somebody who is no doubt above diamond.
I have always wondered this too, i have always found this annoying. And to anyone who says if it is like that it would be op, then i say this, your still spreading them the same distance just with a bit of a guideline of how far they can go.
On May 29 2011 19:08 Sir_J wrote: OP, I fail to see what are you whining about.
He wants it so that you can see the radius of each creep tumor if you select more than one. You only see the radius when you select one, but if you select more the radius magically disappears.
I think this would be too much of a buff to be honest, having 1 creep tumor going in different directions is easy enough. Being able to send 5 in the same direction in an easier fashion would be borderline imba imo.
LOL you guys read the thread ? Hes not asking for a e z mode button, he just wants creeptumors to show the radius when you have more than one selected. I was justing thinking about this too, it would be helpful but I don't think it'll be done
I agree on the radius. It appears when you select one tumor, but when you select some, you don't know where's the limit anymore. Clearly a fail from Blizzard imo.
Marines should also auto split vs Banelings, I just hate it when it takes 2 banelings to kill 10 marines. Clearly it should take 2 banelings to kill 1 marine.
I see no reason to change the creep tumor mechanic, and I've never heard anybody else complain about them before in the way you are.
My main race isn't Zerg, but I'm fairly certain you already can see the radius of the creep tumors already. The color is green if you can place it and red if you can't, or something like that.
The change you're calling for is purely aesthetic.
Besides, do you REALLY want fifty different radius-circles to show up when you select your creep tumors?
I want Blizzard to make so force fields can not overlap on top of each other, but instead when you put 2nd FF with 1 hex on top of other it will be pushed away so you don't have to waste so many time to trying to precisely place them or waste more than the needed amount.
ARRRRGH! Everyone who has replied to this thread does not understand the topic at all! The OP is not asking for a balance change. He's asking for a design change!
I'll say it again. This suggestion is not a balance change.
On May 29 2011 19:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I see no reason to change the creep tumor mechanic, and I've never heard anybody else complain about them before in the way you are.
My main race isn't Zerg, but I'm fairly certain you already can see the radius of the creep tumors already. The color is green if you can place it and red if you can't, or something like that.
The change you're calling for is purely aesthetic.
Besides, do you REALLY want fifty different radius-circles to show up when you select your creep tumors?
Didn't think so.
You can only see them if you select (1) tumor, if you select more then the radius disappears. The problem the OP is trying to address is that it's much harder to drop tumors when you select 2 or more, like you'll click somewhere but it's too far and you get that annoying buzzing sound.
Anyways I think spreading multiple creep tumors is underrated already. People who are on top of that can spread their creep so quickly, it's ridiculous.
On May 29 2011 19:26 InstantKarma wrote: ARRRRGH! Everyone who has replied to this thread does not understand the topic at all! The OP is not asking for a balance change. He's asking for a design change!
I'll say it again. This suggestion is not a balance change.
It is somewhat of a balance change when you make certain tasks easier. If queens auto-injected that would affect the balance of the game right?
When I double click, and get a lot of tumors to spread, sometimes I place them wrong because I can't see the limit of where they individually can all go to, and then the AI sometimes chooses the wrong one when you Click to spread. I like this idea a lot, and every Zerg player who has spread with 3 or 4 tumors selected at once MUST have thought about this.
edit: Yes. OP is simply saying that multiple selected tumors should all display a dotted line for their spread limits, just like the displayed siege tanks did. Wow.
Doesn't seem necesarry at all to me at least, had no problems putting em out at any time. We already know the max range indicated by the spread of the creep, and when you do it often you dont pay really close attention to it anyhow and just try and spred it fast.
On May 29 2011 19:26 InstantKarma wrote: ARRRRGH! Everyone who has replied to this thread does not understand the topic at all! The OP is not asking for a balance change. He's asking for a design change!
I'll say it again. This suggestion is not a balance change.
It is somewhat of a balance change when you make certain tasks easier. If queens auto-injected that would affect the balance of the game right?
Technically, that would not be balance change. If it relies on factors that exist out of the game it is not technically a balance change.That isn't a good comparison anyways. He's not suggesting that creep automatically spread itself. He's suggesting a visual marker which shows the limits of your creep tumors. It doesn't change the limits of creep it just shows what the limits are.
On May 29 2011 19:20 Shahrazad wrote: I think the better argument is for siege tanks, etc not having those range indicators when more than one are selected, just like creep tumours.
Clever response. A good point too; one that most Terran can see and perhaps have empathy for what this post's purpose is.
To the people claiming that things should not be made easier, think of it as a way to eliminate redundancies rather than making the game easier. For example, in Starcraft 1, a Zerg's Hatchery could only have one waypoint. The ability for that building to have waypoints was implemented, but the mechanic to have two separate ones (one for workers, one for units) was not incepted. Did this make the game easier? Yeah, it's hard to argue against that. Was it a necessary change? It was an annoyance change. Annoyance change, meaning that it isn't directly applied to gameplay or strategy but was a mechanic that had redundancies or was poorly designed. Yet most players relate these changes to Blizzard making the game easier while that effect was actually inadvertent.
And hey, if creep spread becomes slightly more powerful because of the change (not like Blizzard is going to read this and implement it -- I know) than the opposing player just has to do that much of a better job controlling it.
This is a fairly reasonable request though. I am not asking for something whose intentions would be to make the game easier, like an in-game build order clock or an auto idle worker rally etc. I am asking for a simple and reasonable mechanic change.
What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
This is a fairly reasonable request though. I am not asking for something whose intentions would be to make the game easier, like an in-game build order clock or an auto idle worker rally etc. I am asking for a simple and reasonable mechanic change.
I agree.
To clarify one of my points I made earlier; a mechanics change does not affect balance. A mechanics changes affects what buttons you have to press which is an out of game affect. A balance feature is an in-game change such as the terrain, the damage units deal, or the cost of units.
On May 29 2011 19:46 FenneK wrote: This is ridiculous. There is nothing hard about spreading creep, you don't need to dumb it down to the point where the game would become patronizing.
Come back when they've removed tank range and pylon power indicators. Until then you don't have a point.
Do you even understand his problem? If you select one Creep Tumor you can see where you can place the next one If you select two you wont get the range indicator.
All he wants is a range indicator for multiple creep tumors
How would you protoss/terrans feel if you had no Siegetank range indicator or pylon range indicator if you selected multiple of them... would be pretty dumb eh
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
There are green and red outlines denoting where you can and can't place creep tumors, and apparently buzzing sounds that go off when you can't put them down too. Also, the fact that they just don't get placed down.
How many other indicators do there really need to be? Giant arrows on the map recommending good positions?
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
There are green and red outlines denoting where you can and can't place creep tumors, and apparently buzzing sounds that go off when you can't put them down too. Also, the fact that they just don't get placed down.
How many other indicators do there really need to be? Giant arrows on the map recommending good positions?
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
There are green and red outlines denoting where you can and can't place creep tumors, and apparently buzzing sounds that go off when you can't put them down too. Also, the fact that they just don't get placed down.
How many other indicators do there really need to be? Giant arrows on the map recommending good positions?
What if there was no pylon range indicator and just green and red unit outlines? Wouldn't you feel that would be poor design? Now why can't that same design be implemented on other features in-game?
If you support pylon range indicators there is no reason you should oppose creep range indicators.
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
There are green and red outlines denoting where you can and can't place creep tumors, and apparently buzzing sounds that go off when you can't put them down too. Also, the fact that they just don't get placed down.
How many other indicators do there really need to be? Giant arrows on the map recommending good positions?
You seriously can't understand where is the problem? You select one tumor - you can see range, you select two tumors - you can't see the range. What is the reason why there is no range indicators when you select multiply creep tumors?
If you think there shouldn't be indicators when selecting multiply tumors then give arguments why, because now everyone just "How many other indicators do there really need to be? Giant arrows on the map recommending good positions?" I mean how to stupid this sounds do you even understand?
I agree, this is just a bug. Pylon have range if you select more than one, why creep tumor shoudn't? Doesn't make it any easier to spread creep (everyone just spam clicks anyway). It would be just less annoying
Creep spread is fine as it is right now. If you want to spread creep in multiple direction easily then select tumors manually. Creep spread gives you free vision over half the map it should take apm to spress properly
It's an obvious GUI oversight by Blizzard. I doubt that Blizzard purposefully decided to design their interface poorly to make the game 'more challenging'.
Why are so many people complaining about this making it easier? The fact Zerg are the only ones that have to do something like spread creep make them most demanding already, so a cosmetic change like that, which may help out, should be implemented
On May 29 2011 20:03 Tantaburs wrote: Creep spread is fine as it is right now. If you want to spread creep in multiple direction easily then select tumors manually. Creep spread gives you free vision over half the map it should take apm to spress properly
Mules give you free money you should have to micro them them manually so that you reselect the mineral patch everytime they bring minerals home
On May 29 2011 19:15 Micket wrote: Marines should also auto split vs Banelings, I just hate it when it takes 2 banelings to kill 10 marines. Clearly it should take 2 banelings to kill 1 marine.
If you read the Engrish, he's talking about adding more visual indicators, not about automated tasks done by the engine itself. Example: Pylon Light radius shown to players.
On May 29 2011 20:09 taldarimAltar wrote: Adding to this i think they should show the siege tank range when moving a bunch of tanks so u know where to siege them at max range
Personally, I think the ones who are saying it is an oversight by Blizzard are correct. I highly doubt design teams decided to remain certain mechanics of the game less user-friendly in order to challenge APM. I would also hold that statement true for 100% of mechanics in Brood War.
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
There are green and red outlines denoting where you can and can't place creep tumors
OP makes a good point. Though I don't run into any position where this is ever an issue. At the start of the game I always have my next tumor put down before the creep spread is finished from the first. Also during the later stages when I do have multiple tumors to use, they'll be right next to each other and will most likely be set in the same direction.
SC2 is easy enough creep spread does not take a whole lot for players to do. You could ask for auto-kiting, auto-producing SCVs and probes so you don't forget, and every game would be an auto-win or auto-loss depending on build order.
And again, the Protoss and Terran players obviously know how to play Zerg better than Zerg players. "I'm no Zerg player, but you're wrong and I'm right. I may not have experience, but..." Actually I can't finish that sentence because I've got no clue what the hell they think there. I see no possible reasons for their thinking other than either a superiority complex, or a severe inferiority complex.
Here are some comparisons for other races. Imagine if: -Your dropped mule didn't start automining when dropped on a patch. -Your nexus didn't display energy -Your pylons didn't have a radius -You had to stim each marine individually -Your guardian shield wasn't visible -You couldn't tell whether your banshee was cloaked or not
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
Seriously, what the fuck. Either most of these people are retarded or they flat out didn't read the OP.
Or I guess they dindt' undrestand it. I'll be honest, I had no idea waht the hell he was talking about until someone explained it a few posts down.
On May 29 2011 20:03 Tantaburs wrote: Creep spread is fine as it is right now. If you want to spread creep in multiple direction easily then select tumors manually. Creep spread gives you free vision over half the map it should take apm to spress properly
Mules give you free money you should have to micro them them manually so that you reselect the mineral patch everytime they bring minerals home
Wow so many people who looked at the pictures and just presumed they wanted a larger range. You failures, I really do wish people would read.
And I find myself always having a tumor lagging behind or not even touched at all because I just presume that it's been planted. As many others have said, It's just oversight from Blizzard I feel, but I do feel like it takes valuable seconds late game that you have to focus on spreading creep because there are no visual signs, you don't have to focus on siegeing in range on the choke when you have multiple tanks do you? You don't have to focus on pylon placements overlapping because you have the pylon radius there. That's what I compare it too tbqh.
On May 29 2011 20:21 RockIronrod wrote: And again, the Protoss and Terran players obviously know how to play Zerg better than Zerg players. "I'm no Zerg player, but you're wrong and I'm right. I may not have experience, but..." Actually I can't finish that sentence because I've got no clue what the hell they think there. I see no possible reasons for their thinking other than either a superiority complex, or a severe inferiority complex.
Here are some comparisons for other races. Imagine if: -Your dropped mule didn't start automining when dropped on a patch. -Your nexus didn't display energy -Your pylons didn't have a radius -You had to stim each marine individually -Your guardian shield wasn't visible -You couldn't tell whether your banshee was cloaked or not
That is what it is like.
chill, man don't play the victim here ..... i'm sure creep spread is not a reason to complain about we never heard top zergs complain, and there are alot of complainers in that departament, believe me !!! Trust me, if IdrA doesn't complain it's not an issue.
On May 29 2011 19:03 RAGEKalin wrote: people who play zerg are beyond the limits of greediness, on top - No it won't be good idea, creep tumors are annoying enough for the other races as they are, cba making it easy for zerg to creep over the map in less then a minute
Compelling and convincing argument from somebody who is no doubt above diamond.
On May 29 2011 20:21 RockIronrod wrote: And again, the Protoss and Terran players obviously know how to play Zerg better than Zerg players. "I'm no Zerg player, but you're wrong and I'm right. I may not have experience, but..." Actually I can't finish that sentence because I've got no clue what the hell they think there. I see no possible reasons for their thinking other than either a superiority complex, or a severe inferiority complex.
Here are some comparisons for other races. Imagine if: -Your dropped mule didn't start automining when dropped on a patch. -Your nexus didn't display energy -Your pylons didn't have a radius -You had to stim each marine individually -Your guardian shield wasn't visible -You couldn't tell whether your banshee was cloaked or not
That is what it is like.
chill, man don't play the victim here ..... i'm sure creep spread is not a reason to complain about we never heard top zergs complain, and there are alot of complainers in that departament, believe me !!! Trust me, if IdrA doesn't complain it's not an issue.
I actually don't think too strongly of this. It's annoying if I plant multiple ones in close proximity, but it's not usually an issue. It just annoys the hell out of me when people claim that adding a damned INDICATOR OF RANGE would break the game and make Zerg too easy and OP, and that they think their argument of "I think it works like this (but it doesn't really) so you shouldn't change it because lol wait i have add what did op say again?" is valid.
On May 29 2011 20:21 RockIronrod wrote: And again, the Protoss and Terran players obviously know how to play Zerg better than Zerg players. "I'm no Zerg player, but you're wrong and I'm right. I may not have experience, but..." Actually I can't finish that sentence because I've got no clue what the hell they think there. I see no possible reasons for their thinking other than either a superiority complex, or a severe inferiority complex.
Here are some comparisons for other races. Imagine if: -Your dropped mule didn't start automining when dropped on a patch. -Your nexus didn't display energy -Your pylons didn't have a radius -You had to stim each marine individually -Your guardian shield wasn't visible -You couldn't tell whether your banshee was cloaked or not
That is what it is like.
EXACTLY! We share the exact same opinion.
Was I the only one who laughed when I reached the 'stimming each marine individually'? hahahah :D
I don't actually understand the OP or what the question is. But I did read what someone thought was his intention. To make the range of the tumor visible, so that you know where to place it. We all know when you select multiple ones and just spam it doesn't always work, sometimes you try to place it a hex too far and nothing will happen. That would obviously be really good to be able to see how far you can place the tumor when you have one selected. It would be like taking away building placements or the coloring. You don't know if you can place your building here, just try, oh no you can't reselect all and try it again etc. If it's like that, I think that's good. But if he means you can "unsiege" your tumors, move them somewhere else and then "siege" them again to start spreading, I don't think thats good, it would be too much change and probably has unforseen consequences.
On May 29 2011 20:21 RockIronrod wrote: And again, the Protoss and Terran players obviously know how to play Zerg better than Zerg players. "I'm no Zerg player, but you're wrong and I'm right. I may not have experience, but..." Actually I can't finish that sentence because I've got no clue what the hell they think there. I see no possible reasons for their thinking other than either a superiority complex, or a severe inferiority complex.
Here are some comparisons for other races. Imagine if: -Your dropped mule didn't start automining when dropped on a patch. -Your nexus didn't display energy -Your pylons didn't have a radius -You had to stim each marine individually -Your guardian shield wasn't visible -You couldn't tell whether your banshee was cloaked or not
That is what it is like.
lol all those do not compare to creep tumor radius. dont worry i play random
Isn't the creep itself an indication of the radius ? As far as the creep spreads from one tumor, the edge of the creep is the farthest place you can place another.
This thread shows the average level of the SC2 player that joined TL recently, the OP isn't asking for ANYTHING that's gonna make the game easier, it's just weird how if you select more than one creep tumor you can only see the range of one of them.
Having what the OP suggested doesn't even make it easier, it just shows you something that should be visible anyway.
I play toss but I actually thought that this should be implemented the last few times that I played as Zerg, it really is annoying not knowing and you guys have hard enough mechanics as is.
On May 29 2011 20:41 MindRush wrote: Isn't the creep itself an indication of the radius ? As far as the creep spreads from one tumor, the edge of the creep is the farthest place you can place another.
When you have multiply tumors nearby it's not easy to see that.
I think it would be a better compromise to just alter the AI to use the farthest possible creep tumor when placing one. Say you have 5 tumors, 2 of them behind 3 more. You place one at the range limit and one of the two tumors in the back are used instead of any of the the 5. That sucks. But having multiple selected and having a clean UI for each of them might be just a little too easy. Zerg could make the whole map home field within 10 minutes of the game and lose very little time doing it. As of now you have to be dedicated to achieving this.
But all and all, creep tumors are fine as they are.
On May 29 2011 20:45 Probe1 wrote: I think it would be a better compromise to just alter the AI to use the farthest possible creep tumor when placing one. Say you have 5 tumors, 2 of them behind 3 more. You place one at the range limit and one of the two tumors in the back are used instead of any of the the 5. That sucks. But having multiple selected and having a clean UI for each of them might be just a little too easy. Zerg could make the whole map home field within 10 minutes of the game and lose very little time doing it. As of now you have to be dedicated to achieving this.
But all and all, creep tumors are fine as they are.
Come on man, do you honestly believe what keeps zerg from overtaking the map with creep in 10 minutes is the faulty UI?
I can't believe some of this stuff. Creep tumor has a cooldown, it's the only thing (well that and player mechanics) that stops the creep from advacing too fast. It also takes awhile for the creep tumor to reach its full size, unless there's an overlord or another tumor around, which then becomes a mess because you dont know how far you can go, so you just try to spam them as spread as possible and as far away as possible... so if you could see the range of all the tumors, you'd spend less time figuring out where you can place them, and I guess save like 1-2 seconds everytime you tried to spread creep?
if anything it gives you slightly more time to macro/micro, it doesn't really do anything to spreading creep
On May 29 2011 20:41 MindRush wrote: Isn't the creep itself an indication of the radius ? As far as the creep spreads from one tumor, the edge of the creep is the farthest place you can place another.
When you have multiply tumors nearby it's not easy to see that.
I also believe that creep tumors have a further range than the creep they spread. (i.e a single creep tumor can spawn a new one beyond the range of its creep spread if you were to use an overlord to drop creep at the edge)
Creep Spread is fine as it is. It's actually one of the most fun parts of the game to see how quickly the map turns purple. You just have to develop 2 timings in your head: one for injects and one for your tumor timings.
On May 29 2011 20:50 TigerKarl wrote: Creep Spread is fine as it is. It's actually one of the most fun parts of the game to see how quickly the map turns purple. You just have to develop 2 timings in your head: one for injects and one for your tumor timings.
It's not that hard when opponents do not try to kill tumors, but if he scans, uses observers to kill them then it becomes very hard job to keep the creep everywhere.
On May 29 2011 20:50 TigerKarl wrote: Creep Spread is fine as it is. It's actually one of the most fun parts of the game to see how quickly the map turns purple. You just have to develop 2 timings in your head: one for injects and one for your tumor timings.
Does noone read threads anymore and just post based on the title?
The OP actually bumped into an inconsistency in MBS.
Here is another one:
Select a drone, order it to morph into an evo chamber. While the drone does this, put it under a control group. After morphing, the evo chamber automatically replaces the drone in the control group.
Now order another drone to do the same. Add it under the same control group using shift. The second evo chamber will NOT be added to the group.
This inconsistency even appears when you order two drones to morph into buildings. Only one building will be added to the control group.
On May 29 2011 20:54 Morphs wrote: The OP actually bumped into an inconsistency in MBS.
Here is another one:
Select a drone, order it to morph into an evo chamber. While the drone does this, put it under a control group. After morphing, the evo chamber automatically replaces the drone in the control group.
Now order another drone to do the same. Add it under the same control group using shift. The second evo chamber will NOT be added to the group.
This inconsistency even appears when you order two drones to morph into buildings. Only one building will be added to the control group.
man i know that one its so annoying but lets not derail the topic too much
Making the game easier is not the way to go imo. The reason eSports is so competitive is because the games all have their little nuances that make them tricky or annoying, but if you are well practiced and have a methodical way of doing it, it becomes easy.
Well the creep spread of the tumor comes slower than its cool down, so just spread less tumors per selection and always spread at the edge... that's how I do it.
Why do people keep saying this makes the game easier lol it just give you a bunch of radi around multiple tumors at once instead of one at a time. How is this suppose to accomplish except maybe save 2 apm and decrease tumor mistakes... tumors are so freaking cluttering already anyways, mechanics buff, but not gonna change the game at all.
On May 29 2011 21:13 Laurence wrote: Making the game easier is not the way to go imo. The reason eSports is so competitive is because the games all have their little nuances that make them tricky or annoying, but if you are well practiced and have a methodical way of doing it, it becomes easy.
im beginning to think people who say things like this should try maintaining a good creep spread first
and in what terms is this making the game easier anyway? its not like it will detract from the skill of maintaining creep spread
On May 29 2011 21:23 StarStruck wrote: It really isn't necessarily. If you play z a lot, it becomes second nature.
Yeah and drone is bugged and can't hit anything, but it became second nature for zerg players so it is okey, right? How the hell do you even thinking lol?
English. I think you mean, "how the hell can you think that?" For the record I play Zerg. So your snide remarks are in vain. Good job. Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant. I repeat, if you do something long enough, it becomes second nature. I have a good eye for where I can put a tumor and where I cannot. It really isn't that hard to understand. Hence the idea of showing the radii isn't necessary for me.
I'm fine with how it is now - makes you click on each creep tumor individually - at least something reminding us of BW.
But if the improvements of OP are to be applied - multiple radius AND spread from multiple tumor selection - then another change is needed also. When you select multiple tumors and click spread to new location the action applies to the first tumor in the selection (first by internal ID); in order for the mechanic to work, this should become smart-casting, so that the selected tumor which is closest to the casting point is being used instead. Sounds easy, but is not that trivial to implement. Still, it could be done, if Blizzard really wants it, but I don't think it's that much needed.
To clarify what I mean - it's like with multiple queens, when you click a hatchery, only the closest queen performs the inject larva action. This smart-cast algorithm has not been applied to multiple tumor selection + spread tumor ; for that case the default applies, which is to perform the action with the first tumor by ID. So when you click in the radius of another tumor in the selection outside the radius of the first tumor, you get an error; and you don't even know for sure which one is the first. So for now it's best to just use them individually, or to move them in the beginning as an array, so that the radius is the same, and later to spread them sideways individually.
On May 29 2011 21:30 StarStruck wrote: English. I think you mean, "how the hell can you think that?" For the record I play Zerg. So your snide remarks are in vain. Good job. Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant. I repeat, if you do something long enough, it becomes second nature. I have a good eye for where I can put a tumor and where I cannot. It really isn't that hard to understand. Hence the idea of showing the radii isn't necessary for me.
Really ? Correcting people on their grammar/syntax when they're not from an english speaking country ? And it could just as well has been a typo. What's wrong with you, you got what he meant, no need to be condescending.
For the record, the idea of the OP (at least what I understood of it) wasn't that it was necessary, but that it would make the game fairer. Why would Protoss and Terran have the radius displayed when selecting pylons and tanks (it isn't necessary either), but not zerg with creep tumors ?
If he's going to take the time and effort to post, he might as well try to be clear, so others can understand. Not everyone will be able to decode his ramble.
Tumors showing radii would be one of the last things on my list as a Zerg player and I'm sure many other players who play the game long enough would agree. Your last point is good, but I can one up you on that as well:
Buildings are shown where and where they cannot go regardless of pylons. The same thing can be said for creep (if it isn't on the creep, gee you cannot put it there, likewise extractors have to be placed directly on geysers). Same with Terran. You cannot add an add-on if you are one pixel to a wall or on a doodad.
Siege tanks are a different beast and its the only decent point the OP made. I read the OPs and the countless pages of nonsense unlike most people, so by the time I do post. It's going to be blunt and right to the point.
To summarize, there are many other things I would like to see before they even think about making that change. The only people that patch would really help are people who are new to Zerg. That is all.
What the OP seems to forget is that it makes sense not to wait for the maximum radius of creep spread from a tumor before using that to expand again but rather to use it as soon as you can. More tumors = faster creep spread AND more backup tumors in case your opponent is smart enough to destroy them. So there really is no point in asking for a dotted line around the edge IMO.
I dont understand why the cont do this for all casters T.T i cant stand it whenever I have a group of HTs or something and I think they are in range but they really waddle around so I miss the perfect storm
Yet another thread proving that people do not have basic reading comprehension skills. When you select more than one creep tumor you no longer see the dotted circle that tells you how far you can place it. That's what he wants changed. Poeple are so quick to jump up and scream IMBA!!!! Learn to read.
On May 29 2011 22:06 hpTheGreat wrote: Yet another thread proving that people do not have basic reading comprehension skills. When you select more than one creep tumor you no longer see the dotted circle that tells you how far you can place it. That's what he wants changed. Poeple are so quick to jump up and scream IMBA!!!! Learn to read.
Though if you're on top of your game, you'll place it as soon as it's off cooldown, at which point you'll just place it as far away as possible. You can just aspire to this, boost that APM bro.
Seems unnecessary.. Do you really have trouble clicking them individually. If anything, creep should actually disappear when the tumor gets killed instead of being replaceable by another creep tumor within 40 seconds or so
On May 29 2011 22:06 hpTheGreat wrote: Yet another thread proving that people do not have basic reading comprehension skills. When you select more than one creep tumor you no longer see the dotted circle that tells you how far you can place it. That's what he wants changed. Poeple are so quick to jump up and scream IMBA!!!! Learn to read.
Though if you're on top of your game, you'll place it as soon as it's off cooldown, at which point you'll just place it as far away as possible. You can just aspire to this, boost that APM bro.
Yea, and if youre on top of your game, you wont need rally points or MBS or smart casting or anything that makes this game a modern RTS compared to BW. In fact, if youre on top of your game, you could beat oGsMC in a BO7!!!
...this isnt about if youre "on top of your game" or about APM or any of that. Its about a simple graphical issue with selecting multiple creep tumors. If youre protoss and you want to warp in some units, you get to see the pylon power radii. If youre terran and you select multiple siege tanks, you get to see their range circles. If youre zerg and you select multiple tumors to spread creep, suddenly that range circle just disappears. Its not a huge deal, just a graphical issue that Terran and Protoss dont run into but Zerg does.
I personally dont care either way, but I cant believe how much shit the OP is getting for such a harmless suggestion
On May 29 2011 21:51 StarStruck wrote: If he's going to take the time and effort to post, he might as well try to be clear, so others can understand. Not everyone will be able to decode his ramble.
Tumors showing radii would be one of the last things on my list as a Zerg player and I'm sure many other players who play the game long enough would agree. Your last point is good, but I can one up you on that as well:
Buildings are shown where and where they cannot go regardless of pylons. The same thing can be said for creep (if it isn't on the creep, gee you cannot put it there, likewise extractors have to be placed directly on geysers). Same with Terran. You cannot add an add-on if you are one pixel to a wall or on a doodad.
Siege tanks are a different beast and its the only decent point the OP made. I read the OPs and the countless pages of nonsense unlike most people, so by the time I do post. It's going to be blunt and right to the point.
To summarize, there are many other things I would like to see before they even think about making that change. The only people that patch would really help are people who are new to Zerg. That is all.
Sure, unnecessarily correcting grammar mistakes on forum is definitely a way to show your superior intelligence. Looks like you had no problem understanding what he wrote though, or if you did, then it's clearly your problem for failing to read rather than his problem for failing to write.
The OP is merely suggesting Blizzard to fix an inconsistent mechanic (or more likely, a bug/design failure).
And your counter argument is, because there are other things/bugs that you personally dislike more, blizzard should change those first before changing this one?
???
Where is the logical connection between your argument and conclusion?
That's right, there is none.
The only reason you can draw your conclusion from your argument is that, you seems to think your opinion and preference should be weighted heavier than OP's ( alone with those who also agree with him). Because they are obviously "new to zerg", or, noobs.
Looks like you might have passed that english course, but obviously failed basic logic 101.
On May 29 2011 19:03 RAGEKalin wrote: people who play zerg are beyond the limits of greediness, on top - No it won't be good idea, creep tumors are annoying enough for the other races as they are, cba making it easy for zerg to creep over the map in less then a minute
Compelling and convincing argument from somebody who is no doubt above diamond.
On May 29 2011 22:32 Sated wrote: Clearly, TeamLiquid can't read
I think the situation is pretty simple. You either think that tanks, pylons and tumors should have the indicator mechanic or you think that they shouldn't have that mechanic. If you think that a mix-and-match situation that makes sense then you're being silly.
As for those saying that making this change would make creep spread easier, it wouldn't. People would still forget about tumors and spread them late and people would still let their creep-poop queens get too high on energy. Saying this would make creep spread easier is like saying that Protoss players never get supply blocked because their pylon radius is always shown which... well, that's obviously retarded.
wait but wouldnt this change mean that i would lose to inferior players because the worse players might get better at spreading creep
On May 29 2011 19:03 RAGEKalin wrote: people who play zerg are beyond the limits of greediness, on top - No it won't be good idea, creep tumors are annoying enough for the other races as they are, cba making it easy for zerg to creep over the map in less then a minute
Compelling and convincing argument from somebody who is no doubt above diamond.
On May 29 2011 21:51 StarStruck wrote: If he's going to take the time and effort to post, he might as well try to be clear, so others can understand. Not everyone will be able to decode his ramble.
Tumors showing radii would be one of the last things on my list as a Zerg player and I'm sure many other players who play the game long enough would agree. Your last point is good, but I can one up you on that as well:
Buildings are shown where and where they cannot go regardless of pylons. The same thing can be said for creep (if it isn't on the creep, gee you cannot put it there, likewise extractors have to be placed directly on geysers). Same with Terran. You cannot add an add-on if you are one pixel to a wall or on a doodad.
Siege tanks are a different beast and its the only decent point the OP made. I read the OPs and the countless pages of nonsense unlike most people, so by the time I do post. It's going to be blunt and right to the point.
To summarize, there are many other things I would like to see before they even think about making that change. The only people that patch would really help are people who are new to Zerg. That is all.
Sure, unnecessarily correcting grammar mistakes on forum is definitely a way to show your superior intelligence. Looks like you had no problem understanding what he wrote though, or if you did, then it's clearly your problem for failing to read rather than his problem for failing to write.
The OP is merely suggesting Blizzard to fix an inconsistent mechanic (or more likely, a bug/design failure).
And your counter argument is, because there are other things/bugs that you personally dislike more, blizzard should change those first before changing this one?
???
Where is the logical connection between your argument and conclusion?
That's right, there is none.
The only reason you can draw your conclusion from your argument is that, you seems to think your opinion and preference should be weighted heavier than OP's ( alone with those who also agree with him). Because they are obviously "new to zerg", or, noobs.
Looks like you might have passed that english course, but obviously failed basic logic 101.
TL is an English forum. If you don't want to abide by the rules then that is your own problem. Not mine. I was simply clarifying what he said, capiche? There are other places you may go if you don't want to post something coherent. From the looks of it, he put little to no thought in his post. Hence my comments.
As another guy mentioned at the top of the page, the only inconsistency is that creep spread is ever-changing in itself. It isn't just a sudden change when you add a new tumor or spew creep with an overlord. It takes time and the radii is always changing. Good players aren't always going to wait for the full duration it takes for an ovie let alone a tumor to stop creeping forward. That's why you see stacked tumors as they serve multiple purposes.
Don't put words in my mouth. Blizzard has better things to do. This is by no means a bug.
Or you train until you can shortgroup the new creeptumors within seconds and your creep goes wooosh. And everyone will be amazed by how fast your creep spreads. Anyway they are almost for free and i guess zerg base management needed some increase in difficult. Thats why its not a doubleclick and a few clicks to spread your tumors and thats why queens don't have autocast on inject larva. The missing circles are of course part of the difficult increase :3. (siege tanks don't have circles unsieged so you need to get a feel for them as well)
I think this is a good idea, since it lets you mass spread tumors much more efficiently. Honestly with the current system I just spread creep one tumor at a time, and that can be so slow. Even if I have a queen for creep, there are just so many tumors all over the place and its annoying having to pick say 3 out of 7 tumors and shift spread if they are not all fairly close to one another.
On May 29 2011 22:40 Greatness wrote: Creep spread design is fine, don't see any problems to be honest...Coming from a mid-masters Zerg.
It's not a problem, but a mere annoyance/design failure/possible bug; which annoys some people more than others.
Personally I don't really feel like i need it either, but if it's a bug( which is what i see it as), then it should be fixed.
Yet it seems like many people think if a bug makes the game harder than it should be, then it's a good bug, we should leave it alone. :/
What is the bug anyway? Tried looking for it in this thread, couldn't find a post.
If it's the difficulty of picking 3/7 creep tumors to spread 3 creep tumors, just double click them all, just press where you want the new creep tumors to go, don't understand the problem.
On May 29 2011 22:40 Greatness wrote: Creep spread design is fine, don't see any problems to be honest...Coming from a mid-masters Zerg.
It's not a problem, but a mere annoyance/design failure/possible bug; which annoys some people more than others.
Personally I don't really feel like i need it either, but if it's a bug( which is what i see it as), then it should be fixed.
Yet it seems like many people think if a bug makes the game harder than it should be, then it's a good bug, we should leave it alone. :/
What is the bug anyway? Tried looking for it in this thread, couldn't find a post.
If it's the difficulty of picking 3/7 creep tumors to spread 3 creep tumors, just double click them all, just press where you want the new creep tumors to go, don't understand the problem.
If you select one creep tumor you will see a range indicator of how far away you can place it. If you select more than one, the range indicator disappears. Why the hell did you even post your first post in the first place (hurr durr creep spread is fine lol) if you can't even grasp what the OP and consecutive posts said?
On May 29 2011 22:40 Greatness wrote: Creep spread design is fine, don't see any problems to be honest...Coming from a mid-masters Zerg.
It's not a problem, but a mere annoyance/design failure/possible bug; which annoys some people more than others.
Personally I don't really feel like i need it either, but if it's a bug( which is what i see it as), then it should be fixed.
Yet it seems like many people think if a bug makes the game harder than it should be, then it's a good bug, we should leave it alone. :/
What is the bug anyway? Tried looking for it in this thread, couldn't find a post.
If it's the difficulty of picking 3/7 creep tumors to spread 3 creep tumors, just double click them all, just press where you want the new creep tumors to go, don't understand the problem.
It is inconsistent with other mechanics in this game. A single creep tumor shows radiance while multiple ones don't.
While pylons and siege tanks that have similar nature don't have this problem.
Difficulty has nothing to do with it.
Read the OP before you post, in fact you don't even have to read it, there are some huge ass pictures that clearly shows the difference.
On May 29 2011 21:51 StarStruck wrote: If he's going to take the time and effort to post, he might as well try to be clear, so others can understand. Not everyone will be able to decode his ramble.
Tumors showing radii would be one of the last things on my list as a Zerg player and I'm sure many other players who play the game long enough would agree. Your last point is good, but I can one up you on that as well:
Buildings are shown where and where they cannot go regardless of pylons. The same thing can be said for creep (if it isn't on the creep, gee you cannot put it there, likewise extractors have to be placed directly on geysers). Same with Terran. You cannot add an add-on if you are one pixel to a wall or on a doodad.
Siege tanks are a different beast and its the only decent point the OP made. I read the OPs and the countless pages of nonsense unlike most people, so by the time I do post. It's going to be blunt and right to the point.
To summarize, there are many other things I would like to see before they even think about making that change. The only people that patch would really help are people who are new to Zerg. That is all.
Sure, unnecessarily correcting grammar mistakes on forum is definitely a way to show your superior intelligence. Looks like you had no problem understanding what he wrote though, or if you did, then it's clearly your problem for failing to read rather than his problem for failing to write.
The OP is merely suggesting Blizzard to fix an inconsistent mechanic (or more likely, a bug/design failure).
And your counter argument is, because there are other things/bugs that you personally dislike more, blizzard should change those first before changing this one?
???
Where is the logical connection between your argument and conclusion?
That's right, there is none.
The only reason you can draw your conclusion from your argument is that, you seems to think your opinion and preference should be weighted heavier than OP's ( alone with those who also agree with him). Because they are obviously "new to zerg", or, noobs.
Looks like you might have passed that english course, but obviously failed basic logic 101.
TL is an English forum. If you don't want to abide by the rules then that is your own problem. Not mine. I was simply clarifying what he said, capiche? There are other places you may go if you don't want to post something coherent. From the looks of it, he put little to no thought in his post. Hence my comments.
As another guy mentioned at the top of the page, the only inconsistency is that creep spread is ever-changing in itself. It isn't just a sudden change when you add a new tumor or spew creep with an overlord. It takes time and the radii is always changing. Good players aren't always going to wait for the full duration it takes for an ovie let alone a tumor to stop creeping forward. That's why you see stacked tumors as they serve multiple purposes.
Don't put words in my mouth. Blizzard has better things to do. This is by no means a bug.
Maybe you can point out a rule in TL that says you cannot make a grammar mistake, regardless of where are you from?
Or maybe TL should ban white-ra because he doesn't speak perfect English.
Because creep tumors and their radii are ever-changing in themselves, then they shouldn't have been shown? What about siege tanks? They are more "ever-changing" than creep tumors, no?
You "good player" argument has nothing to do with anything. A good player can overcome it doesn't mean it's not a bug.
If a mechanic is inconsistent with everything else that show similar nature, it obviously a bug.
Blizzard has better things to do? What does that have to do with fixing an existing bug? If you want to point out something else that blizzard want to fix, you might want to open a new thread and at least put in as much effort as the OP did, because you are not adding anything to this one.
The thing baout seige tanks is that you only get those radius circles once seiged, if you are trying to work out where to seige you have to do it by experience. I.e in tank vs tank battles you have to guess where the edge of your seige radius will be to perfectly seige up just in range of ur opponents tanks and thats takes alot of practice, just like getting your creep spread right does.
Creep tumors aren't an attacking unit, expecting their mechanics to work like seige tanks is just stupid.
Completely agree on the radius, always thought that was a bug. It can be very tedious and annoying sometimes with multiple creep tumors selected to find where i can place them. Select idle creep tumor would be a pretty good addition as well haha. I don't really see why people consider this imbalanced, as the other races don't have to do this mechanic, or one like it, and it doesn't really change the power of units, it just makes the zerg mechanic of creep spread more smooth. You still have to click and move every one, it can be a little painstaking to race around the map and move 6-10+ (TDA) of these around every other larva cycle. Even more time consuming when you have to figure out where the end point of every creep tumors range is simply by sight. Usually I don't have too much of a problem with this, but I can see where the OP is coming from. It simply would make sense to have the radius show up with multiple tumors selected. I think most importantly, it does not lower the APM required to spread creep, it only makes your APM more efficient. Hopefully this will get fixed at some point. Also: seems like a few people who have never played zerg posting in this thread criticizing the op, plz stop. k thnx.
On May 29 2011 19:46 Sclol wrote: What is wrong with the community now adays Somebody wants a range indicator and everybody gets mad because the game would get way to easy for zerg then.
I know! It makes it gut-wrenching to see ppl complaining about a simple request for circles showing all the creep tumors' range. Alternitively, you could remove range indicators from siege tanks and pylons, but how in the world would that be a good thing.
I think the OP was purposely a little vague in order to bring out the trolls, though.
On May 29 2011 21:51 StarStruck wrote: If he's going to take the time and effort to post, he might as well try to be clear, so others can understand. Not everyone will be able to decode his ramble.
Tumors showing radii would be one of the last things on my list as a Zerg player and I'm sure many other players who play the game long enough would agree. Your last point is good, but I can one up you on that as well:
Buildings are shown where and where they cannot go regardless of pylons. The same thing can be said for creep (if it isn't on the creep, gee you cannot put it there, likewise extractors have to be placed directly on geysers). Same with Terran. You cannot add an add-on if you are one pixel to a wall or on a doodad.
Siege tanks are a different beast and its the only decent point the OP made. I read the OPs and the countless pages of nonsense unlike most people, so by the time I do post. It's going to be blunt and right to the point.
To summarize, there are many other things I would like to see before they even think about making that change. The only people that patch would really help are people who are new to Zerg. That is all.
Sure, unnecessarily correcting grammar mistakes on forum is definitely a way to show your superior intelligence. Looks like you had no problem understanding what he wrote though, or if you did, then it's clearly your problem for failing to read rather than his problem for failing to write.
The OP is merely suggesting Blizzard to fix an inconsistent mechanic (or more likely, a bug/design failure).
And your counter argument is, because there are other things/bugs that you personally dislike more, blizzard should change those first before changing this one?
???
Where is the logical connection between your argument and conclusion?
That's right, there is none.
The only reason you can draw your conclusion from your argument is that, you seems to think your opinion and preference should be weighted heavier than OP's ( alone with those who also agree with him). Because they are obviously "new to zerg", or, noobs.
Looks like you might have passed that english course, but obviously failed basic logic 101.
TL is an English forum. If you don't want to abide by the rules then that is your own problem. Not mine. I was simply clarifying what he said, capiche? There are other places you may go if you don't want to post something coherent. From the looks of it, he put little to no thought in his post. Hence my comments.
Maybe you can point out a rule in TL that says you cannot make a grammar mistake, regardless of where are you from?
Because creep tumors and their radii are ever-changing in themselves, then they shouldn't have been shown? What about siege tanks? They are more "ever-changing" than creep tumors, no?
You "good player" argument has nothing to do with anything. A good player can overcome it doesn't mean it's not a bug.
If a mechanic is inconsistent with everything else that show similar nature, it obviously a bug.
Blizzard has better things to do? What does that have to do with fixing an existing bug? If you want to point out something else that blizzard want to fix, you might want to open a new thread and at least put in as much effort as the OP did, because you are not adding anything to this one.
Here we go again, I'm going to disregard any comments you make about s&g because that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If you happen to be from the GTA area, by all means you can bring this up at the next TL meet up.
There is nothing inconsistent with the siege tanks range. How the heck do you plan on selling that? They have two modes.
As for your other suggestions, I'm not even going to bother because I already addressed them.
This is a good idea, if you manage to get that many creep tumours and spread them actively (~ 4-5 cycles) you deserve it imo because it indicates that you have map control or your opponent is lazy clearing them which gives them reason for punishment. People whining seem to be thinking creep spread will be faster with this change, makes no sense.
On May 29 2011 19:52 Sclol wrote: Do you even understand his problem? If you select one Creep Tumor you can see where you can place the next one If you select two you wont get the range indicator.
All he wants is a range indicator for multiple creep tumors
How would you protoss/terrans feel if you had no Siegetank range indicator or pylon range indicator if you selected multiple of them... would be pretty dumb eh
Can any mod put this post on top of the original post?
This thread shows how many people should have no rights to post here, jesus. 75% of people didint even read shit before writing 'YEAH BUFF ZERG MORE'.
You're right insofar as it's kind of inconsistent to allow multiple selection of creep tumors (which is basically just mbs) and laying down multiple new ones but not showing the usual dotted circle. If they wanted to disallow it, they should disallow it, but just not showing the circles seems weird. But the analogy to units (siege tanks) doesn't necessarily hold since you can target fire multiple units to one target, but can't put multiple creep tumors on the same spot.
Does it show the circles with multiple spine crawlers selected?
On May 29 2011 22:52 Sated wrote: All this change does is make the mechanic consistent with that seen for tanks and pylons and you can't really argue against consistency.
Sure you can. Creating exceptions to a general trend allows player to encounter something unique to their choices.
In BW Dark Archons are the only spell caster that don't get additional useable mana upon training after researching their max energy upgrade. In SC upgrades follow the general trend that level 2,3 require a specific tech building for each race. For Protoss Shield upgrades you don't have this restriction.
Personally I'm in favor of exceptions if they offer an interesting conditions in usage. This current condition with creep tumors is just an annoyance and should be changed.
On May 29 2011 23:25 chenchen wrote: Why don't we make the game play itself if we hold down one button, and whoever holds down the button for longer wins?
Seriously, to everyone that seems to say that anything that makes the interface of the game easier means that the game is getting noobyfied...
The interface is not what should make the game challenging, it should be the actual game DESIGN not INTERFACE that does that.
Examples Chess, DESIGN: how the pieces move and what they can do, INTERFACE: picking one up and moving it. The interface is easy as pie.... the design leads to a fantastically complex and challenging game. Tic-Tac-Toe, DESIGN: How the Xs and Os function on the board and how to achieve victory, INTERFACE: drawing them in the cells..... The interface is easy..... but so is the design and the game is a silly waste of time.
Telling people to go back and play BW to see how a "real" game should be.... sigh.... So what? The original Warcraft had a worse interface as did WarII for that matter, it's not like they were anything near what BW or SC2 are. Should we artificially limit how well we can interface with the game so that it is more challenging? Instead of simply right-clicking to move a unit we probably should have players execute key-combos Street Fighter style. A Hadouken to issue commands for Terrans, Shouryuken for Zerg and Sonic Booms for Protoss like this you have to be super gosu to be able to build a supply depots and some barracks. Better yet why not have it so that we can't select more than one of anything at a time?.... Sending a squad of marines to attack would take ~600APM... then we can really see who is the skilled player. By the standards you guys put forth the truest test of skill is a game like QWOP....
Wow! The level of maturity and friendliness in this thread is just as low as Call Of Duty: Black Ops. It's days like this that makes me really miss the broodwar and quake community
What a terrible cesspool of a thread, I'm honestly shocked that so many people either just didn't read the OP, or are so terrible at understanding that they misunderstood what he meant so badly.
I personally think this is a change/fix that is long overdue, and has frequently annoyed me when trying to make creep tumors while selecting multiple tumors.
After reading all the posts and stuff, i believe that starcraft 2 is too easy. just the other day i played a BW game and noticed how much more i had to do.
if everything is given to us, starcraft 2 just turns into a movie w/ mouse clicking.
so i disagree with this one, showing the creep tumor radius is just making things too convenient/easy.
like come on, starcraft is a game of APM, and multitasking; among other things, and you have to look out for SOMETHING
so i disagree with this one, showing the creep tumor radius is just making things too convenient/easy.
I assume that you also want the pylon radius indicator removed as well, then?
im pretty sure pylon radius has been shown since the dawn of time.
i dont see why zergs absolutely NEED this.. the creep is as far as the creep is, choose to use your tumors now or dont. go on to the next thing of your mental checklist and skip it. learn to time it out..
The same goes for Missile Turrets, unless you didn't notice. The radius is present when putting down the initial turret, but clicking on it later on doesn't reveal the perimeter anymore. It's the same as the Creep function, when putting new ones down you can see the included area.
Next thing we know you'll be asking for flying marines, or some crazy shit like that. Oh wait..
Sure, lets put other people to work on something because we are too lazy to select 2-3 at a time, planning to send them on a certain path. The creep spread mechanic is perfect in the current state, I dont think you should come up with moronic requests.
On May 30 2011 00:25 `dunedain wrote: The same goes for Missile Turrets, unless you didn't notice. The radius is present when putting down the initial turret, but clicking on it later on doesn't reveal the perimeter anymore. It's the same as the Creep function, when putting new ones down you can see the included area.
Next thing we know you'll be asking for flying marines, or some crazy shit like that. Oh wait..
@ the guy who said pylon radius should be removed:
Cannon radius isnt shown? wait, i'm pretty sure the spines/spore crawlers show the radius.. imo lets remove that so its all even and you can just burrow/unburrow blindly hoping youre in range.
On May 30 2011 00:25 Wyk wrote: Sure, lets put other people to work on something because we are too lazy to select 2-3 at a time, planning to send them on a certain path. The creep spread mechanic is perfect in the current state, I dont think you should come up with moronic requests.
Did you even tried playing zerg? Do you know how much time you need to invest to spread creep all over the map? This is a bug which needs to be fixed, at least I see no reason why this should stay how it is now.
On May 29 2011 23:49 quaren wrote: Examples Chess, DESIGN: how the pieces move and what they can do, INTERFACE: picking one up and moving it. The interface is easy as pie.... the design leads to a fantastically complex and challenging game.
Well it's like that the creep tumor grid is like chess with grid to show where you could move, why don't they make that for competitive chess? It's not necessary because the player should know where he could place the creep tumor or move the chess unit (dno what's it's called).
I saw this thread, and it made me write this thread in the strategy section : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227693 , I think before you go and judge creep spreading mechanic you should know all of its possibilities, if you can spread creep backwards and forwards same time, then I think you might possibly change the OP .
so i disagree with this one, showing the creep tumor radius is just making things too convenient/easy.
I assume that you also want the pylon radius indicator removed as well, then?
im pretty sure pylon radius has been shown since the dawn of time.
i dont see why zergs absolutely NEED this.. the creep is as far as the creep is, choose to use your tumors now or dont. go on to the next thing of your mental checklist and skip it. learn to time it out..
Pylon radius being displayed is obviously a requirement. But when you say "dawn of time", you mean SC1, right? When you could only select one pylon at time anyway. When you needed to display the power radius of multiple pylons at a time right? Oh, hold on...
If creep tumors shouldn't show the radius of each individual tumor, when multiples are selected, then neither should tanks or pylons do the same.
so i disagree with this one, showing the creep tumor radius is just making things too convenient/easy.
I assume that you also want the pylon radius indicator removed as well, then?
im pretty sure pylon radius has been shown since the dawn of time.
i dont see why zergs absolutely NEED this.. the creep is as far as the creep is, choose to use your tumors now or dont. go on to the next thing of your mental checklist and skip it. learn to time it out..
Pylon radius being displayed is obviously a requirement. But when you say "dawn of time", you mean SC1, right? When you could only select one pylon at time anyway. When you needed to display the power radius of multiple pylons at a time right? Oh, hold on...
If creep tumors shouldn't show the radius of each individual tumor, when multiples are selected, then neither should tanks or pylons do the same.
If you're worried about losing the game over creep tumors, you have worse problems than that.
On May 29 2011 19:15 -Zoda- wrote: I agree on the radius. It appears when you select one tumor, but when you select some, you don't know where's the limit anymore. Clearly a fail from Blizzard imo.
Agreed. Why you get the range for one tumor, and not many is beyond me. Also, why you can't double-click and select only active tumors doesn't make sense either. There is no reason why you would want to select both active an inactive tumors.
so i disagree with this one, showing the creep tumor radius is just making things too convenient/easy.
I assume that you also want the pylon radius indicator removed as well, then?
im pretty sure pylon radius has been shown since the dawn of time.
i dont see why zergs absolutely NEED this.. the creep is as far as the creep is, choose to use your tumors now or dont. go on to the next thing of your mental checklist and skip it. learn to time it out..
Pylon radius being displayed is obviously a requirement. But when you say "dawn of time", you mean SC1, right? When you could only select one pylon at time anyway. When you needed to display the power radius of multiple pylons at a time right? Oh, hold on...
If creep tumors shouldn't show the radius of each individual tumor, when multiples are selected, then neither should tanks or pylons do the same.
If you're worried about losing the game over creep tumors, you have worse problems than that.
so many people complaining and not understanding what the OP wrote, this will in no way AUTOMATE and reduce APM required, what he suggests is just to have a visual marker to get the most precise spreading of the tumors. So no doesn't make it easier, its pretty much similar to pylon radius markers.
so i disagree with this one, showing the creep tumor radius is just making things too convenient/easy.
I assume that you also want the pylon radius indicator removed as well, then?
im pretty sure pylon radius has been shown since the dawn of time.
i dont see why zergs absolutely NEED this.. the creep is as far as the creep is, choose to use your tumors now or dont. go on to the next thing of your mental checklist and skip it. learn to time it out..
Pylon radius being displayed is obviously a requirement. But when you say "dawn of time", you mean SC1, right? When you could only select one pylon at time anyway. When you needed to display the power radius of multiple pylons at a time right? Oh, hold on...
If creep tumors shouldn't show the radius of each individual tumor, when multiples are selected, then neither should tanks or pylons do the same.
This sub discussion made me realize why creep tumors are the way they are.
Creep tumors show a radius when one is selected because it is going to execute a build command. The game engine treats tumors like it would workers, instead of as a completely new entity. This wasn't an oversight by Blizzard.
It can be fixed but it helps knowing why creep tumors work the way they do.
On May 29 2011 21:51 StarStruck wrote: If he's going to take the time and effort to post, he might as well try to be clear, so others can understand. Not everyone will be able to decode his ramble.
Tumors showing radii would be one of the last things on my list as a Zerg player and I'm sure many other players who play the game long enough would agree. Your last point is good, but I can one up you on that as well:
Buildings are shown where and where they cannot go regardless of pylons. The same thing can be said for creep (if it isn't on the creep, gee you cannot put it there, likewise extractors have to be placed directly on geysers). Same with Terran. You cannot add an add-on if you are one pixel to a wall or on a doodad.
Siege tanks are a different beast and its the only decent point the OP made. I read the OPs and the countless pages of nonsense unlike most people, so by the time I do post. It's going to be blunt and right to the point.
To summarize, there are many other things I would like to see before they even think about making that change. The only people that patch would really help are people who are new to Zerg. That is all.
Sure, unnecessarily correcting grammar mistakes on forum is definitely a way to show your superior intelligence. Looks like you had no problem understanding what he wrote though, or if you did, then it's clearly your problem for failing to read rather than his problem for failing to write.
The OP is merely suggesting Blizzard to fix an inconsistent mechanic (or more likely, a bug/design failure).
And your counter argument is, because there are other things/bugs that you personally dislike more, blizzard should change those first before changing this one?
???
Where is the logical connection between your argument and conclusion?
That's right, there is none.
The only reason you can draw your conclusion from your argument is that, you seems to think your opinion and preference should be weighted heavier than OP's ( alone with those who also agree with him). Because they are obviously "new to zerg", or, noobs.
Looks like you might have passed that english course, but obviously failed basic logic 101.
TL is an English forum. If you don't want to abide by the rules then that is your own problem. Not mine. I was simply clarifying what he said, capiche? There are other places you may go if you don't want to post something coherent. From the looks of it, he put little to no thought in his post. Hence my comments.
As another guy mentioned at the top of the page, the only inconsistency is that creep spread is ever-changing in itself. It isn't just a sudden change when you add a new tumor or spew creep with an overlord. It takes time and the radii is always changing. Good players aren't always going to wait for the full duration it takes for an ovie let alone a tumor to stop creeping forward. That's why you see stacked tumors as they serve multiple purposes.
Don't put words in my mouth. Blizzard has better things to do. This is by no means a bug.
OP here. I appreciate all the comments but am a bit frustrated with ones who really aren't connecting the dots.
To this poster, yes, you do not always wait for creep to reach its maximum radius. We can all agree on that. However, when having to spread multiple tumors, you always want to spread each tumor to its maximum distance possible. Now I want you to open a single player game against a very easy computer and try this. Sweep two or more tumors and you will find that you can't tell the distance that each tumor will go. Say for example you want the creep to spread leftwards, and you have 3 tumors all in different (think of it as an XY graph) X values. Now try and spread them to the maximum distance by sweeping them all, pressing C, and clicking all the while under 5 seconds of time. Impossible.
To be honest, it would be nice to access all un-spent creep tumors much like protoss access their warpgates: have a universal button, so instead of hunting down all your good tumors, you can just scroll to the edge of your creep, spam w and click at the edges.
Yeah, it's super annoying when I'm spreading creep. I'm super active about creep spread too, so any and all Idle hatcheries are always making queens. I support this change whole-heartedly.
People don't even understand the post just wow...it should really be fixed. If zerg can't see the limit they can spread creep while having multiple tumors selected then I don't think terran should be able to see the radius of their siege tank's attacks when they have more than 1 selected.
why it needed 9 pages of ridiculous misunderstanding and flaming.. well that's just ridiculous. Please stop posting if you aren't 100% sure about something.. no more "well i dont play zerg but i think this is how it works anyway" its such crap.
As to the OP, i agree, i think the current nature of tumor spreading is a bit retarded, and i'd welcome your proposed change
Wow a lot of people are bashing something they don't understand.
Creep tumors have a ring like siege tanks that shows their range, however when you have multiple tumors the rings disappear, the OP is suggesting that the rings should remain like siege tanks.
It would not make things easier or faster really, it would just visually aide the player on how far he can click out his tumors.
Its an interesting point that I have thought of before. I don't really understand why it doesn't show the radius when you have multiple tumors selected. It would be a nice change but not really a necessary one, I think most people can spread tumors just fine how it is. But i cant help laughing at all the people trying to imply that this change would be equal to auto-micro marines or 50 ultras at the start of the game. All it would do is let you see where you can place tumors just the same way that protoss show pylon radius when you place buildings. lol
Personally as a zerg player i would not like this change as i like who creep tumors are now but, i do think it should be something optional a player can turn on.
IDK, I think that having all the radii show up would actually make it worse visually. When you have 10 tanks in reasonably close proximity selected, the range lines are pretty convoluted. I can understand where the argument comes from though, and it is a little weird that it doesn't show the range of all (considering other units/structures that do). I just don't care for it, though.
It's funny when people respond to threads without reading them.
I would love this mechanic so much, it's such a hassle when you're spreading creep with multiple tumors and the AI chooses the wrong one when you spread it out. -_-
On May 30 2011 08:26 templar rage wrote: IDK, I think that having all the radii show up would actually make it worse visually. When you have 10 tanks in reasonably close proximity selected, the range lines are pretty convoluted. I can understand where the argument comes from though, and it is a little weird that it doesn't show the range of all (considering other units/structures that do). I just don't care for it, though.
Despite how clustered the markers would be, all you would really want is the edges. Simplifying everything.
On May 29 2011 19:52 Sclol wrote: Do you even understand his problem? If you select one Creep Tumor you can see where you can place the next one If you select two you wont get the range indicator.
All he wants is a range indicator for multiple creep tumors
How would you protoss/terrans feel if you had no Siegetank range indicator or pylon range indicator if you selected multiple of them... would be pretty dumb eh
I think I'd be able to play without a pylon range indicator myself, I can't speak for Terrans and their siege tanks.
The amount of people that didn't properly read the original post and scream 'omg zerg dont need no buffz!' baffles me. This is a simple change. It should only show the spread range on tumors that haven't yet spawned another tumor, which would decrease the cluster of circles on your screen. I'm not sure why this hasn't been implemented. It's not super annoying and there's plenty of reasons no one has complained about it, BUT, it is still an annoyance that is very unnecessary..
On May 29 2011 19:52 Sclol wrote: Do you even understand his problem? If you select one Creep Tumor you can see where you can place the next one If you select two you wont get the range indicator.
All he wants is a range indicator for multiple creep tumors
How would you protoss/terrans feel if you had no Siegetank range indicator or pylon range indicator if you selected multiple of them... would be pretty dumb eh
I think I'd be able to play without a pylon range indicator myself, I can't speak for Terrans and their siege tanks.
On May 29 2011 20:43 Cosmos wrote: I feel like to balance the game you could even remove creep tumors so I realy don't see your point.
Wouldn't removing creep tumors make the game imbalanced? Zerg has to rely on the speed increase that comes from being on creep for a lot of things, it's a lot harder to get a good surround on something without creep spread.
On May 30 2011 09:19 Klaas wrote: It's so easy to misunderstand OP if you just look at the pictures. Anyway looks like a bug, since only multiple selection doesn't show the rings.
It is not easy to misunderstand at all
Only those who did not read any of the OP, but rather glanced at the pics would
It looks like Zerg players are running out of things to complain about these days. Maybe they need a radius indicator on creep tumor might help them stop 4 gates.
How would one relay this information to Blizzard? It seems to me that a majority of the players who understand the post are willing to support its entry into the game. Does the community agree?
At first, I only looked at the pictures and thought you were a Terran player, and were showing off what you do with Seige Tanks and scans to combat creep tumors.
But now that I figured it out, I agree, it should be added. The information could be relayed via the PTR forum.
I dont understand why people think this is a buff. Its not gonna spread creep faster. This isn't game breaking in any way. Complaining about this would be like a zerg complaining that terrans can use grid to wall off.
every other mechanic has a sustainable system to execute it more easily except this one, i dont see why they wouldent do it. you can inject/warpin/drop mules/build units/ queue up many drops, the list goes on and on. Every other mechanic either has a special hotkey or can be extecuted easily using control groups, except creep spread.
Yeah I have this problem whenever I get zerg as random for team games. It is hella annoying, hopefully Blizzard is looking into this, since I can't see how it could be overpowered to to other races.
As is right now is pretty cool. The only thing is players giving more importance to creep spread, sparing a hot key or screen position. But how it works? Seems fine to me.
On May 30 2011 12:56 Ponyo wrote: As is right now is pretty cool. The only thing is players giving more importance to creep spread, sparing a hot key or screen position. But how it works? Seems fine to me.
The thing OP is trying to state is that it could (and should) be much better than what it is currently, even if it already "seems fine" to the great Ponyo.
I switched to zerg from protoss recently, and have been trying to find a good way to spread creep when I stumbled upon this thread.
I don't think that the comparison to pylons or seige tanks is a good comparison because, while they both have range indicators that are visible regardless of the number selected, they do very different things from creep tumors.
Pylons are necessary to build most units, and to place all buildings for the protoss. These functions are satisfied by CREEP ITSELF, and larval injects / hatcheries for the zerg player. Suggesting that pylons not have a range is similar to suggesting that creep be invisible, but still behave the same.
Seige tanks are seige tanks. Their range is GIGANTIC. I'm usually of the opinion that if something has a range, and you're a good player, you can get a feel for the range. I feel that this is less true for seige tanks, just because the range is so big, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that seige tanks can shoot further than they actually can see, so a range indicator is important IMO.
So what's wrong with creep tumors? According to the OP, it's that you can see the range on the spawn tumor spell if you select one tumor, but not if you select multiple. This reminds me of another unit - the sentry. If you select only one sentry, you can see the range for casting force field. But if you select multiple, there is no indicator. Should this be changed for the same reason that tumor should be changed? If not, /why/ not?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S5sc9.jpg)
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