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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:23 ehalf wrote: I have to say: is mass colossi allowed? Whats the difference between mass colossi and thors... Fucking retard blizzard. Huge difference, 1 VR beats 100 colossus. | ||
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videogames
United States103 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:32 Yaotzin wrote: Uh Vikings/Corrupters? Dealing with mass colossi is easy because both races have a perfect counter unit - something the colossi can't shoot and does good damage to the colossi. Mass colossi is hardly ever done anymore anyways, it's shit. They don't do well against marauders or roach/drop play, which is the current metagame. Stand army compositions are pretty cost effective against thors (I'm talking marine/marauder, roach/hydra/ling, zeal/stalker/robo units). You actually have to get counter units to beat mass colossus. Massed thors were never a problem, except in very specific timing pushes. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:43 s3rp wrote: The Opponent has 10 Colosus mean you can't engage with ANY kind of ground Unit . If this isn't scary i don't know what else is . And 10 Kolossi doesn't mean you can't have some sentry and Gateway Support. And with some support 10 colossi will melt anything on the Ground. And die horribly to viking/corrupter...it's not scary. The sadest part is when your opponent then later stops building colossi and you have Anti-Air that will become useless. This is pretty much the only time colossi works anymore. Dunno why people act like everyone goes mass colossi, the trend has been strongly away from colossi at all for a while. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:46 Yaotzin wrote: And die horribly to viking/corrupter...it's not scary. This is pretty much the only time colossi works anymore. Dunno why people act like everyone goes mass colossi, the trend has been strongly away from colossi at all for a while. If you don't have viking/corrupter you're just fucked against a colo heavy army composition. But a 'regular' army does fine against a thor heavy army, assuming roughly even army counts (ie, he's not hitting a timing window where you're caught with your pants down). Also, you can't talk about massed thors or massed colossus in a vacuum, you have to think about it in the context of a game. Yeah, if you're having unit tester battles then you can easily counter a guy going mass colossus by getting air counters. But in an actual game, you can't just easily change your army composition to counter colossus. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:46 Yaotzin wrote: And die horribly to viking/corrupter...it's not scary. This is pretty much the only time colossi works anymore. Dunno why people act like everyone goes mass colossi, the trend has been strongly away from colossi at all for a while. Well, even if people don't go mass colossi anymore, Colossi are still way scarier than Thor. A gateway army + 4 colossi is way better and scarier than a erran army + 4 Thor. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:48 Jyvblamo wrote: If you don't have viking/corrupter you're just fucked against a colo heavy army composition. But a 'regular' army does fine against a thor heavy army, assuming roughly even army counts (ie, he's not hitting a timing window where you're caught with your pants down). Regular army does terribly against Thor. Guessing you've never actually played against Thors? They could be dealt with (possibly aside from some timings), but you sure as hell had to adjust your composition big time. Regular play gets demolished. Well, even if people don't go mass colossi anymore, Colossi are still way scarier than Thor. A gateway army + 4 colossi is way better and scarier than a erran army + 4 Thor. Well I guess to a Zerg the colossi are scarier. To a Protoss the Thors are scarier. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:46 Yaotzin wrote: And die horribly to viking/corrupter...it's not scary. This is pretty much the only time colossi works anymore. Dunno why people act like everyone goes mass colossi, the trend has been strongly away from colossi at all for a while. Viking/Corruptor, both units that are known for their high usefulness against ground armies and their immunity to stalker fire... If you have not got enough vikings to one-shot each colossus, you'll generally lose more than half of your army before the colossi are down. Colossi basically force T&Z into wasting supply on air units that will be useless the moment the colossi are down. Weakness to air attacks is the only weakness a 9 range colossus has. It's highly mobile, both speed-wise and in its ability to run up and down on cliffs, it grants high-ground vision and is not hindered by units standing in its way. Oh and it has quite a lot of hitpoints, too. Where terran needs about 10+ tanks to start being really destructive on ground forces (that are armored; tanks don't do squat against unarmored targets), you only need 3-5 colossi combined with gateway units to melt any ground army. Protoss meatwalls are also generally way stronger in terms of hitpoints compared to a terran meatwall. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:46 Yaotzin wrote: And die horribly to viking/corrupter...it's not scary. This is pretty much the only time colossi works anymore. Dunno why people act like everyone goes mass colossi, the trend has been strongly away from colossi at all for a while. So, what is the trend now with the brotoss buddies?  | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Some reasons seem a bit weird or not well thought out though, for example the archon nerf being mostly for PvP seems weird as i think the changes affect other matchups more. The thor reasoning is also worded a bit weird making it seem they simply didn't like mass thor armies, which were rarely used anyway (exception goody and thorzain i guess). Simply saying thors countering immortals wasn't ideal would have been better imo. Overall I still think it's quite a good patch, just the subtle changes needed to refine some matchups and nerf some aggresive strats. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:48 Jyvblamo wrote: If you don't have viking/corrupter you're just fucked against a colo heavy army composition. But a 'regular' army does fine against a thor heavy army, assuming roughly even army counts (ie, he's not hitting a timing window where you're caught with your pants down). If you go viking corruptor you are fucked against a heavy thor army. What's your point? Mass collosi isn't that scary if you play it right (getting vikings and corruptors). What is scary is actually knowing how many collosi a protoss have. If I know he's overproducing them I'm happy. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:54 nihlon wrote: If you go viking corruptor you are fucked against a heavy thor army. What's your point? Mass collosi isn't that scary if you play it right (getting vikings and corruptors). What is scary is actually knowing how many collosi a protoss have. If I know he's overproducing them I'm happy. Except you don't normally have viking/corruptor in your army unless you're countering colossus. It's not that tricky a concept to grasp... | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:54 nihlon wrote: If you go viking corruptor you are fucked against a heavy thor army. What's your point? Mass collosi isn't that scary if you play it right (getting vikings and corruptors). What is scary is actually knowing how many collosi a protoss have. If I know he's overproducing them I'm happy. I don't understand. Thors are as easy as Colossi to counter. Somes early pushes were hard to deal with, but still... Blizzard is overreacting to the Thor thing. The " Thor need to be a support unit " don't make sens in my eyes. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:54 Mehukannu wrote: So, what is the trend now with the brotoss buddies? Citadel line of course - DT harass + Templar + Archons. Doesn't suffer from the horrible immobility of robo (important for current PvZ), and does better against the mass marauder play that is in vogue. I don't understand. Thors are as easy as Colossi to counter. Somes early pushes were hard to deal with, but still... Blizzard is overreacting to the Thor thing. The " Thor need to be a support unit " don't make sens in my eyes. How are they easy to counter? Immortals and void rays are the only things that pretty comfortably deal with them, and those two units both have gigantic weaknessess (250mm on immos, charge issue + marines owning them for VRs). | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:52 Yaotzin wrote: Regular army does terribly against Thor. Guessing you've never actually played against Thors? They could be dealt with (possibly aside from some timings), but you sure as hell had to adjust your composition big time. Regular play gets demolished. Regular army does terribly against Thor. Guessing you've never actually played against Thors? They could be dealt with (possibly aside from some timings), but you sure as hell had to adjust your composition big time. Regular play gets demolished. Err, for T and Z, you only need to focus more on bread and butter units like marine/marauder or roach/ling. Beefy armies are the counter to mass thor. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:58 Jyvblamo wrote: Except you don't normally have viking/corruptor in your army unless you're countering colossus. It's not that tricky a concept to grasp... What he says. You're basically forced to build units you've absolutely no use for otherwise because of that one unit that is nigh unkillable without aforementioned units. Colossi on the field is basically "abandon all plans and get as much vikings/corruptors as you can ASAP." | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:59 Yaotzin wrote: How are they easy to counter? Immortals and void rays are the only things that pretty comfortably deal with them, and those two units both have gigantic weaknessess (250mm on immos, charge issue + marines owning them for VRs). They're easy to counter because they are the slowest unit in the game. You don't need to think about unit vs unit. Think about how zerg deal with deathball. Thor don't have even half of the mobility of a colossus, abusing that is easy. I don't want to be tough, but protoss always seems to think about how to win in direct fights because their units are often the best at that. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 14 2011 00:01 Jyvblamo wrote: Err, for T and Z, you only need to focus more on bread and butter units like marine/marauder or roach/ling. Beefy armies are the counter to mass thor. I kinda assumed we were talking about PvT. Mass thor is pretty terrible in TvT, and yeah, it's simple enough to counter in TvZ. PvT you need to tailor a very specific counter to their thor composition, depending on what they support them with. Just throwing lots of gateway junk at them doesn't work at all. They're easy to counter because they are the slowest unit in the game. You don't need to think about unit vs unit. Think about how zerg deal with deathball. Thor don't have even half of the mobility of a colossus, abusing that is easy. Yes I agree, but some maps just don't allow you to - eg crossfire. Earliesh timing pushes make such a response effectively impossible too. On Taldarim or something thors are pretty lolworthy, sure. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
Edit: I was under the impression the Thor energy change was more to limit the super early timing pushes with 1-2 thors with strike cannon. Now you have to wait awhile to use it and micro more in the event of HTs on the field. Can't say one way or another if that's unfair in the late game but the reasoning made sense to me. | ||
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