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On May 10 2011 18:00 DiDigital wrote:
Why the comparison the auto cast spawn larva? That is an ability zerg players use dozens of times each game, where as auto repair comes into play how often? No matter how 'imba' something may be its potential to influence the game is limited to its use within the game. In other words a change to spawn larva is game breaking, where as changes to repair or things like bunker salvage are almost meaningless. It was a categorical example, as I explained in the OP. The two belong in the same category of automated micro. You're right of course in your frequency of use argument. Autorepair has the potential to be game breaking in occasional situations, not consistently game breaking like autoinject would be. My big point here was that abilities are in the same category of automation and neither should be in the game.
Also I have never understood why people complain about auto repair when zerg and protoss units all automatically heal over time - for free. It was like this in BW as well. The answer to you is that of these three healing abilities, repair has the most potential, but has the most attention needed and cost required. So it's a trade off. An ultralisk will take forever to regenerate, but it's completely done free and without attention, while a battlecruiser can be repaired extremely fast at the cost of your attention in bringing+using the scvs and paying for the repair.
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So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject?
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Repair of an SCV is ~2.94 hp per second while fungal does 9 dps per second on light units(all ingame time).
With that math, it takes less BARELY over 2 fungals to kill SCVs even with autorepair. My math was about 2 damage short from killing them flat out in 2 fungals assuming they can INSTANTLY repair and are in range of other SCVs to repair.... so many if not most will die in 2. Let me also quote this from liquipedia:
"An SCV that is mining, building, moving, or attacking will not start to repair, even if repair autocast for that unit is toggled."
Game Breaking right?
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Autorepair (as a Zerg) isn't all that broken anymore, now that the repairing SCV AI has now been fixed.
It's just a more powerful all in mechanic (sacrifice eco for on the spot damage) and makes Terran all ins essentially harder to stop, and we all know how powerful all ins are already.
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On May 10 2011 18:01 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 17:45 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On May 10 2011 17:24 stevarius wrote:On May 10 2011 17:21 AtlasGrip wrote:On May 10 2011 17:13 stevarius wrote:
Nerfing autorepair would be absolutely meaningless given it would only force people to unnecessarily spam right click or r + click. People CAN perform the feats of autorepair unlike auto inject. I don't know how you're saying that autorepair is inhuman and impossible to recreate. To even inject those youtube videos of INSANE micro done by AI bots is just a ludicrous comparison.
I'm actually shocked that someone has this much beef with autorepair especially considering the regen mechanics of both zerg and protoss. o_O
I'll give you a practical example and you tell me it's ludicrous and that a human can do it. Your scvs are clustered under a group of banshees and are repairing them. most of your scvs are somewhat injured, enough that a fungal will kill most of them. your scvs get hit by a fungal growth and will die if you don't order the repair command for each to another neighboring scv (you have to click the neighboring scv, not one out of immediate repair range as the units cannot move due to fungal and also there's just not enough time). Your scvs will all survive if you successfully issue the repair command to each of them before fungal wears out. Can you honestly tell me you or anyone else would be able to issue those commands in the 2.5 seconds (in real time) that fungal lasts for? Do you honestly believe the SCVs are going to survive fungals? It's an impractical situation given the amount of DPS fungals do in such a short span of time. Clicking repair or having autorepair for those SCVs would do absolutely nothing except sink your money in the VERY short amount of time they manage to survive. I even dare you to find a scenario where autorepair is GAME-BREAKING. This is the key as autorepair is, in the opinion of most players, completely fine and unnecessary to be analyzing in the current state of the game... but they do repair fast enough to survive fungal, and in this situation it is game breaking an extra 10+ scvs that dont have to be remade and can mine is a game changer fungal harass cant kill scvs on auto repair, at all, combined with repair costs a lot less than rebuilding them and the weaknesses inherent in infestors, thats potentially very game breaking they did nerf it once to give scvs the attack priority of the unit they were repairing Bad example as usually a few scvs team up to repair one scv, so a lot will die no matter. Ignoring that, this hypothetical example is probably the biggest hair pull I've read. In any case, if auto repair was to be nerfed, I'd expect combat APM to be reduced, because it really is ridiculous how much combat APM a terran requires(using tanks and/or bio). This might be ok for thor combos(Which suck anyway after patch except for allins), but would just take out one more thing people can do, adding scvs to strengthen their army(since even the best pro wouldn't be able to repair + do all the combat APM stuff terran must do). Right. In other words, autorepair really is microing for the player. And if even the best pro can't do all the other things required for him+manually repair in such a battle you described, that really says something. You would have to choose in those precious few combat seconds what to do. Repair or micro something else? Split or stutter... Every race has compelling micro choices just like the compelling choice between macro and micro that makes SC2 so great.
That said, I understand your issue with terran's extreme combat APM requirements. It is pretty nutty. I don't feel like automated micro is the answer though. The benefit of terran is the macro requirements (IMO) are more lenient, letting you micro more. but I really dont want to drag balance into this... Terran's game was not balanced with autorepair in mind. autorepair is technically supposed to be a matter of interface convenience for the players, and I am arguing that it's not.
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On May 10 2011 18:14 Bliznako wrote:
So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject? Not at all!!! Where autoinject fits into this- I'm saying the vast majority of us disagree with autoinject being added, and autorepair is very similar to autoinject. it's an analogy.
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Dumb post is dumb. I was honestly expecting to see something about idra's hotkeys at the end. The AI for autorepair is horrible in terms of how it interacts with other commands of surrounding units. Not to mention unless it is a Thor or PF that's completely surrounde by SCVs, a single SCV's healing power is extremely weak.
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I can't really think of too many situations where auto repairing is actually going to be optimal to manually clicking what needs to be repaired and spots where a person couldn't do on their own. I mean it definitely saves more apm then auto building interceptors does but i would put it in the same category.
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On May 10 2011 18:14 stevarius wrote:
Repair of an SCV is ~2.94 hp per second while fungal does 9 dps per second on light units(all ingame time).
With that math, it takes less BARELY over 2 fungals to kill SCVs even with autorepair. My math was about 2 damage short from killing them flat out in 2 fungals assuming they can INSTANTLY repair and are in range of other SCVs to repair.... so many if not most will die in 2. Let me also quote this from liquipedia:
"An SCV that is mining, building, moving, or attacking will not start to repair, even if repair autocast for that unit is toggled."
Game Breaking right?
no one was talking about scvs that were mining in that situation.
even if your math is correct, that means it takes 3 fungals to kill a cluster of scvs, rather than 2. that's huge. and they could not be saved manually, so...
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On May 10 2011 18:21 AtlasGrip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 18:14 Bliznako wrote:
So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject? Not at all!!! Where autoinject fits into this- I'm saying the vast majority of us disagree with autoinject being added, and autorepair is very similar to autoinject. it's an analogy.
Auto-repair is not very similar to auto-inject, its a horrible analogy.
A proper analogy that would be like you tried to before, with heal vs repair.
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well i don't like the autorepair function either.
it just bad design, i mean the thor abuses show how absurd this becomes.
Also Repair is too cheap imho, if there was a SCV Repair limit it would be fine, but like what? 10 SCVs repairing a thor, if the full DPS of an opposing army can't focusfire 1 Unit/PF something is "broken" imho.
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On May 10 2011 18:24 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 18:21 AtlasGrip wrote:On May 10 2011 18:14 Bliznako wrote:
So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject? Not at all!!! Where autoinject fits into this- I'm saying the vast majority of us disagree with autoinject being added, and autorepair is very similar to autoinject. it's an analogy. Auto-repair is not very similar to auto-inject, its a horrible analogy.
He doesn't seem to think so and no matter what you say and what logic you use, even his own, he will choose to not believe that statement. I can't think of a reasonable way to state the dramatically different roles they play and how much of an error in rational thought it is to compare two completely different things and call them one in the same.
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On May 10 2011 18:21 AtlasGrip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 18:14 Bliznako wrote:
So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject? Not at all!!! Where autoinject fits into this- I'm saying the vast majority of us disagree with autoinject being added, and autorepair is very similar to autoinject. it's an analogy.
Then, by your logic, I guess Zealot charge should be cast manually as well? I sure would like the protoss players to have to press charge for every zealot as the auto-cast is "demonstrating superhuman, automated micro".
Also, if I am making a wish list, I would like inject/feedback to be disabled when clicking on mini-map and you should click every baneling manually to explode into moving targets instead of rolling->auto exploding in the face of manually microed marines.
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On May 10 2011 18:28 Bliznako wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 18:21 AtlasGrip wrote:On May 10 2011 18:14 Bliznako wrote:
So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject? Not at all!!! Where autoinject fits into this- I'm saying the vast majority of us disagree with autoinject being added, and autorepair is very similar to autoinject. it's an analogy. Then, by your logic, I guess Zealot charge should be cast manually as well? I sure would like the protoss players to have to press charge for every zealot as the auto-cast is "demonstrating superhuman, automated micro".
I addressed this in the OP. I made three categories of autocast. Skills like medivac heal, and zealot charge (though I didn't specifically mention it) are autocast by necessity. the ability wouldn't be effective without autocast.
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On May 10 2011 18:23 AtlasGrip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 18:14 stevarius wrote:
Repair of an SCV is ~2.94 hp per second while fungal does 9 dps per second on light units(all ingame time).
With that math, it takes less BARELY over 2 fungals to kill SCVs even with autorepair. My math was about 2 damage short from killing them flat out in 2 fungals assuming they can INSTANTLY repair and are in range of other SCVs to repair.... so many if not most will die in 2. Let me also quote this from liquipedia:
"An SCV that is mining, building, moving, or attacking will not start to repair, even if repair autocast for that unit is toggled."
Game Breaking right? no one was talking about scvs that were mining in that situation. even if your math is correct, that means it takes 3 fungals to kill a cluster of scvs, rather than 2. that's huge. and they could not be saved manually, so...
How often do you have your scv's in a cluster that enables perfect autorepair? Also you could do it like this then: Cast two infested terrans, double fungal -> dead scv's.
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Almost anything with the "auto" prefix has no place in Starcraft IMO.
I didn't really get over MBS and automining myself - I mean I happily "accepted" it as a player because I'm horrible, but I never accepted it as a fan/spectator because I want to see top players demonstrate why they're top players and to be able to prove that they're actually that much better than everyone else.
Autorepair is really no different to that. It contributes to making the game less mechanical, which is enough to make me dislike it.
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Autorepair is kinda necessary if only because they stop repairing whenever the unit reaches full health or you run out of resources. (in which case you need to remicro) If you a move with medivacs they will autoheal, but if you a move with SCVs they'll happily ignore their allies and kamakazie.
I don't understand how autorepair bugs you but autoheal doesnt. The repair costs resources which are costly, the heal costs energy, which is almost always in ample supply. And the heal rate is vastly superior to the repair rate, even on optimal units like Thors.
I mean really, are you also suggesting that protoss should need to micro their units and buildings "on" in order for their shields to recharge? Or that Zerg should need to do the same with their regeneration?
Meaningful micro to display skill is good. Monotonous micro is not.
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OP's posts remind me only of one thing. Let me quote Adam Savage from Mythbusters:
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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On May 10 2011 18:26 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 18:24 spbelky wrote:On May 10 2011 18:21 AtlasGrip wrote:On May 10 2011 18:14 Bliznako wrote:
So basically, what you're saying is either nerf auto-repair or give zergs auto-inject? Not at all!!! Where autoinject fits into this- I'm saying the vast majority of us disagree with autoinject being added, and autorepair is very similar to autoinject. it's an analogy. Auto-repair is not very similar to auto-inject, its a horrible analogy. He doesn't seem to think so and no matter what you say and what logic you use, even his own, he will choose to not believe that statement. I can't think of a reasonable way to state the dramatically different roles they play and how much of an error in rational thought it is to compare two completely different things and call them one in the same. I don't think we're understanding each other. Autorepair and autoinject are analogous in terms of their automation effect, not their roles in the game or the effect the actutal abilitiy has....
Their automation effect is similar because they both would allow for superhuman, automated feats that the player would not be able to do on his own. That's where the analogy begins and ends.
In this respect, autoscatter would be analogous to both these abilities. Could you scatter a thousand zerglings manually in the same time frame that an auto command could? No, you cannot, and neither can you manually inject one thousand hatcheries or one thousand scvs in the same time frame as autocast....
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On May 10 2011 18:37 Talin wrote:
Almost anything with the "auto" prefix has no place in Starcraft IMO.
I didn't really get over MBS and automining myself - I mean I happily "accepted" it as a player because I'm horrible, but I never accepted it as a fan/spectator because I want to see top players demonstrate why they're top players and to be able to prove that they're actually that much better than everyone else.
Autorepair is really no different to that. It contributes to making the game less mechanical, which is enough to make me dislike it.
I'm on the fence on this one. I don't like anything auto either. I like the interface features because I feel like they add a larger fanbase to the game and more participation at all levels. Auto features don't necessarily do that though....I believe that auto repair goes too far with the auto features of this game.
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EPT
