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Kaitlyn
Pretty much everyone lol. Is it bad for whichever team lost in the bidding wars for Stephano and Jaedong that EG could take a financial hit from Slasher's report ? I suspect it's going to be difficult for EG to convince their competition that it's in "pretty much everyone's" best interest that EG is able to reap the financial rewards from everyone else's withholding information. EG would never turn around and use those profits to outbid them on future players. That could never happen because EG is all about what's best for the eSports industry.
What are you even talking about? Is this some kind of subtle jab at EG for recruiting Stephano and Jaedong...? Or are you trying to imply that EG effectively just means themselves when they say "pretty much everyone"?
I'm going to assume the second point because the first one is frankly stupid.
Alright, THIS time it's EG that was mainly hurt by the link, but what if this continues and say...some huge announcement by Complexity is leaked? Maybe ones by IM or MVP or ST? It already happened once with TL and Snute. It does affect everyone.
So I just finally watched the entire discussion in the VOD and quite frankly, I've lost a dramatic amount of respect for EG as an organization. In my opinion, the entire argumentation from the very begining is based on a terribly wrong assumption, which is that E-Sports is fundamentally "different" from normal sports. Both Incontrol and Alex Garfield repeatidly state that E-Sports are almost solely financed by advertisers, and pre-spoilered announcements such as the ones made by Slasher substantially decrease the ad revenue for sponsors.
Seriously: How many people were informed about Jaedong joining EG before the official announcement? 50? 70? 100? How for God's sake can you as a renowned up, arguably most elaborated E-Sports team on this planet (minus Korea), seriously assume that this does not get spoilered to the public?
Except the only reason anyone knew about it beforehand was because Jaedong expressed a desire to join a foreign team and then he later said EG. Good job knowing the history.
The only logical conclusion that I can draw from this is that your business model (that is, financing your team largely relies on advertisers) that you use to run your team just sucks. If your business model relies on more than a hundred persons from multiple organizations to keep a secret that they didn't even signed an NDA for, then your business model is terrible. It's simple as that and you should realized that before flagging other people as scapegoats for your own failure. And by saying that I don't defend Slasher's journalistic quality, which is an entirely different discussion.
The business model sucks? Are you this naive? Every team makes nearly all their money from advertisements and sponsers. I have no clue where you randomly get the a hundred people from but even with 20 people it's extremely difficult not to have a friend of a friend of a friend tell some media(Like Slasher) and then it's up to the media to not be idiotic tabloid junkies and just reporting easy pieces with no journalistic integrity. I like to think Slasher is a bit better than FOX or CNN. A scapegoat is not a scapegoat when the scapegoat is at fault.
Alex Garfield quite frankly makes quite a naive impression to me. Plus the way in which he presents himself in this episode is just plain unprofessional. He really makes it easy to serve as the community's new object of hate.
Yes, because Slasher was professional at all. He dodged nearly every question. Almost any other person in this situation would get just as frustrated if the person kept dodging and cherrypicking the argument. People need to realize that EG is the idea of a successful team. A team can't fucking run on skill alone. Look at what happened to TSL.
And if we really get into that "quality of journalism" discussion, we also have to add that quality journalism also means that you make sure that differing opinions are presented in appropriate ration in your discussion. And not that one person has to defend himself against four opponents.
I feel like what EG did there hurt E-Sports way more than anything Slasher ever did.
four opponents? Sigh, another person that somehow thinks it was a gang-up. The players barely spoke and Wheat never even said his opinion. It was Garfield, and then TB.
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On January 17 2013 03:49 philip697 wrote:
Is there a video or something, that all this is the fallout from? I feel out of the loop.
You mean the whole discussion about Journalism in e-sports and Slasher+EG? Check the last nights VoD of ITG.
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On January 17 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:39 Kaitlin wrote:On January 17 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2013 03:16 IdrA wrote:On January 17 2013 03:04 NeonFox wrote:
Slasher didn't steal this info, someone had to tell him. So he reports it. And even if it pisses off some people it is normal for him to do it, it is not illegal in any way.
I don't see what the big story is here, you cannot blame Slasher for reporting some big news someone told him. I understand why EG is unhappy but their arguments are ridiculous, are they literally asking for a control of the press? the problem is not that he doesnt have the right to report the news, but that it's bad for pretty much everyone for him to do so in the way he does. he's even hurting himself if he does it to such an extent that it pisses off his sources as he'll be left with no information or sources to do even legitimate journalism. And it is a practice for some professional journalist to give people a heads up that they are going to be reporting on something as a professional courtesy. Then the other side (EG, TL MLG, NASL) has the option to push up their announcement or at least prepare to respond to the news when questions come in. A lot of professional fields have similar practices. My firm will give opposing counsel a heads up if we are going to file an aggressive motion, if we have a good relationship with them. We are still trying to kick their ass, but we don’t feel the need to blind side them, as we may need a favor down the line. That is really the point that Alex Garfield getting to. It is not the fact that Slasher reports the news, but the way he goes about it. Professional courtesy goes a long way and is a good practice for anyone in a mildly combative field. No, Alex was upset that Slasher reported the news before EG could benefit from the announcement they intended to make. He also piled on about his alleged lack of quality of the report, but ultimately it was the timing. There would be no complaint from Alex if Slasher put out the exact same quality, but AFTER EG made their announcement. Yeah, I would be really upset too. I bet he worked really hard on that deal and wanted to get the most bang for his buck. My point is that Slasher should respect that Alex would be angry and at least give him a heads up before he runs the story. It is the professional thing to do. It is not required, that is why its called a courtesy. But in general it is a good idea, since EG and Gamespot are not going anywhere soon.
A heads up before Slasher reported it is certainly a viable option. However, is that what Alex was upset about ? That he didn't get merely a heads up ? From everything I've read, it's all about the report scooping EG's announcement. It seems EG and their supporters are decrying the scoop having a negative effect on eSports, and all that, and nothing about being somewhat inconsiderate in the decision not to give a heads up.
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On January 17 2013 03:49 FilipSRB wrote:
Bill Baer is right. If our beloved esports can't handle legitimate journalism, it doesn't deserve to prosper. The idea that this "industry" is exempt from the way the rest of the world functions is quite silly. And its surprising to me that people buy the idea that EG interests = esports interest.
Bottom line is this, consummers want this information/leaks, that's why it is out there. Smart people use this state of affairs to their advantage, other cry foul and demand special rules. TB was right, if the story is good, people will devour content based on that story. Provide them with it. Don't base the future of your business on surprise factor.
I agree, just as long as Slasher doesn't whine when he can't go out drinking with the guys after an event because the team owners are worried information being leaked. Really, only Slasher's peers(other journalist) can judge his professional behaviour.
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On January 17 2013 03:53 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:49 philip697 wrote:
Is there a video or something, that all this is the fallout from? I feel out of the loop. You mean the whole discussion about Journalism in e-sports and Slasher+EG? Check the last nights VoD of ITG.
E58, right? I've got it on, but I don't see TB on it, but I see people talking about TB :/.
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On January 17 2013 03:57 philip697 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:53 Grettin wrote:On January 17 2013 03:49 philip697 wrote:
Is there a video or something, that all this is the fallout from? I feel out of the loop. You mean the whole discussion about Journalism in e-sports and Slasher+EG? Check the last nights VoD of ITG. E58, right? I've got it on, but I don't see TB on it, but I see people talking about TB :/.
He will be in the episode trough Skype (same way Alex will be). Can't tell you exactly when, but he will be on. Just listen to the whole episode, if you are interested.
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When I think of Esports journalism, Slasher is the first that comes to mind. I also enjoy the interviews and articles from Richard Lewis as well as the interviews from the Acer guy Thorin (seriously, watch the "grilled" interviews). Slasher is always the guy that gets information first and he's always spot on. That's a pretty good reputation to have.
I don't follow the scene as closely as I used to, but with LO3 and Slasher (and the previous guys mentioned) I always stay pretty well informed. It's sad that he's catching shit for doing his job, but I appreciate his work. So Fuck Slasher... in the best possible way <3
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whats the foundation for "if esports cant handle journalism it doesnt deserve to exist"
everyone just keeps repeating it because it sounds good. there's no actual reason to believe that. what if the scene were a lot more precarious than it is and losing viewership that comes with losing exclusivity on an announcement actually cost us a sponsor? or what about the lesser teams totalbiscuit referenced who are wholly dependent on every single view any announcement they have gets? the fact that its a growing industry with unstable money flow that's dependent on certain specific things that the media can influence does not delegitimize it as an industry.
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On January 17 2013 03:58 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:57 philip697 wrote:On January 17 2013 03:53 Grettin wrote:On January 17 2013 03:49 philip697 wrote:
Is there a video or something, that all this is the fallout from? I feel out of the loop. You mean the whole discussion about Journalism in e-sports and Slasher+EG? Check the last nights VoD of ITG. E58, right? I've got it on, but I don't see TB on it, but I see people talking about TB :/. He will be in the episode trough Skype (same way Alex will be). Can't tell you exactly when, but he will be on. Just listen to the whole episode, if you are interested.
I will do - thanks mate.
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wtf is this? the freedom of the press does not apply to esports? seriously? "don't write that, because it is hurting our company?" "don't write that because it hurts our beloved country" "don't write that because it hurts the believe in the god we all pray to?" "don't write that because it will hurt yourself too" how is this a discussion? really? if you don't like what he is writing don't read it, if he does a bad job writing than soon he will have no job anymore. problem solved; I can't believe that some butthurt people try to tell the press how to act or what to do just because they loose money (which is basically their own fault)
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On January 17 2013 03:56 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2013 03:39 Kaitlin wrote:On January 17 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2013 03:16 IdrA wrote:On January 17 2013 03:04 NeonFox wrote:
Slasher didn't steal this info, someone had to tell him. So he reports it. And even if it pisses off some people it is normal for him to do it, it is not illegal in any way.
I don't see what the big story is here, you cannot blame Slasher for reporting some big news someone told him. I understand why EG is unhappy but their arguments are ridiculous, are they literally asking for a control of the press? the problem is not that he doesnt have the right to report the news, but that it's bad for pretty much everyone for him to do so in the way he does. he's even hurting himself if he does it to such an extent that it pisses off his sources as he'll be left with no information or sources to do even legitimate journalism. And it is a practice for some professional journalist to give people a heads up that they are going to be reporting on something as a professional courtesy. Then the other side (EG, TL MLG, NASL) has the option to push up their announcement or at least prepare to respond to the news when questions come in. A lot of professional fields have similar practices. My firm will give opposing counsel a heads up if we are going to file an aggressive motion, if we have a good relationship with them. We are still trying to kick their ass, but we don’t feel the need to blind side them, as we may need a favor down the line. That is really the point that Alex Garfield getting to. It is not the fact that Slasher reports the news, but the way he goes about it. Professional courtesy goes a long way and is a good practice for anyone in a mildly combative field. No, Alex was upset that Slasher reported the news before EG could benefit from the announcement they intended to make. He also piled on about his alleged lack of quality of the report, but ultimately it was the timing. There would be no complaint from Alex if Slasher put out the exact same quality, but AFTER EG made their announcement. Yeah, I would be really upset too. I bet he worked really hard on that deal and wanted to get the most bang for his buck. My point is that Slasher should respect that Alex would be angry and at least give him a heads up before he runs the story. It is the professional thing to do. It is not required, that is why its called a courtesy. But in general it is a good idea, since EG and Gamespot are not going anywhere soon. A heads up before Slasher reported it is certainly a viable option. However, is that what Alex was upset about ? That he didn't get merely a heads up ? From everything I've read, it's all about the report scooping EG's announcement. It seems EG and their supporters are decrying the scoop having a negative effect on eSports, and all that, and nothing about being somewhat inconsiderate in the decision not to give a heads up.
I can't be 100% sure why Alex is so upset about it. I think one of the main problems is that the community is so small and Slasher has been friends with most of the professionals before taking the job at Gamespot. Now that the roles are shifting around, people might forget that they are dealing with Slasher the reporter and just think they are dealing with a buddy who also loves Esports. Its a stupid mistake to make, but everyone does it. It is not a lot of fun when jobs come between personal relationships and when your boss tells you, "You really shouldn't interact with that person, it will get you in trouble." I have been on the other side of that discussion and it sucks.
Such is the growing pains of Esports.
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On January 17 2013 03:52 Brawny wrote:Show nested quote +Pretty much everyone lol. Is it bad for whichever team lost in the bidding wars for Stephano and Jaedong that EG could take a financial hit from Slasher's report ? I suspect it's going to be difficult for EG to convince their competition that it's in "pretty much everyone's" best interest that EG is able to reap the financial rewards from everyone else's withholding information. EG would never turn around and use those profits to outbid them on future players. That could never happen because EG is all about what's best for the eSports industry. What are you even talking about? Is this some kind of subtle jab at EG for recruiting Stephano and Jaedong...? Or are you trying to imply that EG effectively just means themselves when they say "pretty much everyone"?
Of course it was the latter. Reading it, I'm not sure how there is confusion. How could signing Stephano and Jaedong be bad for EG ?
I'm going to assume the second point because the first one is frankly stupid.
Alright, THIS time it's EG that was mainly hurt by the link, but what if this continues and say...some huge announcement by Complexity is leaked? Maybe ones by IM or MVP or ST? It already happened once with TL and Snute. It does affect everyone.
First, and AGAIN, Slasher did not leak anything, he reported. The leak comes from insiders, whether it was within EG or their competitors, or sponsors, tournament organizers, who knows. Reporters don't leak, they report. They receive leaked information.
Second, "huge announcement" implies that it's a secret. If hundreds of insiders, not all of whom benefit from Complexity's financial gain, know about this announcement, then Complexity probably shouldn't invest too much into maintaining that secret, as it's not a secret. I don't know why this is hard for so many to understand. They certainly shouldn't expect people who are negatively affected by their success to do them any favors to their own detriment.
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I love how people are saying wheat is biased against slasher. Good friends and cohosts for many years and that hasnt changed.
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On January 17 2013 04:02 dr.fahrenheit wrote:
wtf is this? the freedom of the press does not apply to esports? seriously? "don't write that, because it is hurting our company?" "don't write that because it hurts our beloved country" "don't write that because it hurts the believe in the god we all pray to?" "don't write that because it will hurt yourself too" how is this a discussion? really? if you don't like what he is writing don't read it, if he does a bad job writing than soon he will have no job anymore. problem solved; I can't believe that some butthurt people try to tell the press how to act or what to do just because they loose money (which is basically their own fault)
Freedom of the press is a right in the god damn american constitution and it's not an "internet" or "international" right. This isn't a matter of censoring; it's a matter of "stop leaking everything or we'll just stop talking to you".
This is almost as bad as how people try to defend shitposting with "freedom of speech".
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Richard Lewis (Cadred.org Editor in chief(?)) is talking about this on The Executives right now. Check events on top right.
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On January 17 2013 04:02 dr.fahrenheit wrote:
wtf is this? the freedom of the press does not apply to esports? seriously? "don't write that, because it is hurting our company?" "don't write that because it hurts our beloved country" "don't write that because it hurts the believe in the god we all pray to?" "don't write that because it will hurt yourself too" how is this a discussion? really? if you don't like what he is writing don't read it, if he does a bad job writing than soon he will have no job anymore. problem solved; I can't believe that some butthurt people try to tell the press how to act or what to do just because they loose money (which is basically their own fault)
No one has said he doesn't have the right to do it, its just that its in no ones best interests
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On January 17 2013 01:22 DameHixxi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 01:13 IdrA wrote:
we have 0 media training
but 99% of the people in esports comes off as inarticulate imbeciles so we sound smart. if we were so good at manipulating public opinion there wouldnt be a shitfest on here and reddit every time we voice an opinin. 'We' should have a capital letter. Beginning of sentence. There should be a full stop after 'training'. The word 'but' should start with a capital letter as it begins a sentence. 'Comes' should be 'come'. 'If' should also begin with a capital letter as it begins a sentence. 'Wouldnt' should have an apostrophe between the 'n' and the 't' as it is missing the letter 'o'. It's spelt 'opinion not' 'opinin'. 'Reddit' should begin with a capital letter as it is a proper noun. Normally I wouldn't be so petty as to go down the whole 'correct grammar and spelling route' but really if you're going to say 'man we are sound so much smarter than your average fellow' at least make the effort to type it correctly. Instead you make eight mistakes in three sentences.
Made me laugh. He never said he's so much smarter than the average fellow, he said there's many idiots around. You seem like an intelligent person, I think you shouldn't lower yourself to patronising him.
P.S. with all respects, mistakes =/= not caring about grammar, just trying to get his message across (in his own way, which you should respect, not mock).
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On January 17 2013 04:04 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:52 Brawny wrote:Pretty much everyone lol. Is it bad for whichever team lost in the bidding wars for Stephano and Jaedong that EG could take a financial hit from Slasher's report ? I suspect it's going to be difficult for EG to convince their competition that it's in "pretty much everyone's" best interest that EG is able to reap the financial rewards from everyone else's withholding information. EG would never turn around and use those profits to outbid them on future players. That could never happen because EG is all about what's best for the eSports industry. What are you even talking about? Is this some kind of subtle jab at EG for recruiting Stephano and Jaedong...? Or are you trying to imply that EG effectively just means themselves when they say "pretty much everyone"? Of course it was the latter. Reading it, I'm not sure how there is confusion. How could signing Stephano and Jaedong be bad for EG ? Show nested quote +I'm going to assume the second point because the first one is frankly stupid.
Alright, THIS time it's EG that was mainly hurt by the link, but what if this continues and say...some huge announcement by Complexity is leaked? Maybe ones by IM or MVP or ST? It already happened once with TL and Snute. It does affect everyone.
First, and AGAIN, Slasher did not leak anything, he reported. The leak comes from insiders, whether it was within EG or their competitors, or sponsors, tournament organizers, who knows. Reporters don't leak, they report. They receive leaked information. Second, "huge announcement" implies that it's a secret. If hundreds of insiders, not all of whom benefit from Complexity's financial gain, know about this announcement, then Complexity probably shouldn't invest too much into maintaining that secret, as it's not a secret. I don't know why this is hard for so many to understand. They certainly shouldn't expect people who are negatively affected by their success to do them any favors to their own detriment.
So you're saying that there's no point in even trying to keep announcements secret because they'll always end up being leaked. And who exactly would be the people "negatively affected" in this case?
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On January 17 2013 03:59 IdrA wrote:
whats the foundation for "if esports cant handle journalism it doesnt deserve to exist"
everyone just keeps repeating it because it sounds good. there's no actual reason to believe that. what if the scene were a lot more precarious than it is and losing viewership that comes with losing exclusivity on an announcement actually cost us a sponsor? or what about the lesser teams totalbiscuit referenced who are wholly dependent on every single view any announcement they have gets? the fact that its a growing industry with unstable money flow that's dependent on certain specific things that the media can influence does not delegitimize it as an industry.
Let's put it this way, what kind of community do we want? OR rather, what obligations and rights do we want our community to have.
The above things you just stated are great things and totally true, There is a downside to what Slasher is doing, as there is to practically everything. However your example can also be applied to the real world. Journalism in general costs our society allot of money, allot of business related could go much faster and smoother if the journalistic world just kept their mouth shut, but what society would that give us, just look at China.
Journalism has always operated under certain costs but most people, in the western world at least, feel that that cost is justified cause we believe in things like free speech and such. I for one would like to believe that we actually can have free journalism and that our community is strong enough to give journalists like slasher the ability to exercise this right and that their free speech actually benefits this community as a whole and that the temporary setbacks which may happen actually are worth it.
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On January 17 2013 04:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:56 Kaitlin wrote:On January 17 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2013 03:39 Kaitlin wrote:On January 17 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2013 03:16 IdrA wrote:On January 17 2013 03:04 NeonFox wrote:
Slasher didn't steal this info, someone had to tell him. So he reports it. And even if it pisses off some people it is normal for him to do it, it is not illegal in any way.
I don't see what the big story is here, you cannot blame Slasher for reporting some big news someone told him. I understand why EG is unhappy but their arguments are ridiculous, are they literally asking for a control of the press? the problem is not that he doesnt have the right to report the news, but that it's bad for pretty much everyone for him to do so in the way he does. he's even hurting himself if he does it to such an extent that it pisses off his sources as he'll be left with no information or sources to do even legitimate journalism. And it is a practice for some professional journalist to give people a heads up that they are going to be reporting on something as a professional courtesy. Then the other side (EG, TL MLG, NASL) has the option to push up their announcement or at least prepare to respond to the news when questions come in. A lot of professional fields have similar practices. My firm will give opposing counsel a heads up if we are going to file an aggressive motion, if we have a good relationship with them. We are still trying to kick their ass, but we don’t feel the need to blind side them, as we may need a favor down the line. That is really the point that Alex Garfield getting to. It is not the fact that Slasher reports the news, but the way he goes about it. Professional courtesy goes a long way and is a good practice for anyone in a mildly combative field. No, Alex was upset that Slasher reported the news before EG could benefit from the announcement they intended to make. He also piled on about his alleged lack of quality of the report, but ultimately it was the timing. There would be no complaint from Alex if Slasher put out the exact same quality, but AFTER EG made their announcement. Yeah, I would be really upset too. I bet he worked really hard on that deal and wanted to get the most bang for his buck. My point is that Slasher should respect that Alex would be angry and at least give him a heads up before he runs the story. It is the professional thing to do. It is not required, that is why its called a courtesy. But in general it is a good idea, since EG and Gamespot are not going anywhere soon. A heads up before Slasher reported it is certainly a viable option. However, is that what Alex was upset about ? That he didn't get merely a heads up ? From everything I've read, it's all about the report scooping EG's announcement. It seems EG and their supporters are decrying the scoop having a negative effect on eSports, and all that, and nothing about being somewhat inconsiderate in the decision not to give a heads up. I can't be 100% sure why Alex is so upset about it. I think one of the main problems is that the community is so small and Slasher has been friends with most of the professionals before taking the job at Gamespot. Now that the roles are shifting around, peo ple might forget that they are dealing with Slasher the reporter and just think they are dealing with a buddy who also loves Esports. Its a stupid mistake to make, but everyone does it. It is not a lot of fun when jobs come between personal relationships and when your boss tells you, "You really shouldn't interact with that person, it will get you in trouble." I have been on the other side of that discussion and it sucks. Such is the growing pains of Esports.
I could see the validity of this point if, and only if, Alex had told Slasher the information unofficially as part of their personal relationship. However, it sure seems like Slasher got the information from other sources, and therefore Alex's expectation that Slasher shouldn't do his job so that Alex can better do his, is inappropriate.
It may not be a lot of fun when jobs come between personal relationships, but it's called being professional. Just because these people play a game for a living doesn't mean everything about it should be fun. Many competitors in sports are friends outside the competitive environment, but that doesn't mean they relent on their professional duties to their teams.
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EPT
