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On October 25 2012 08:52 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=6904&topic_id=218946#What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this: Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive? It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard. What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this: Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2, (also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run) Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely" But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Keep doing stuff. Keep streaming, keep making content. Idra can't change the UI, and Geoff can't add clan functionality. What they can do is put the game out there in its best possible light. What they do helps their brand but it also indirectly helps Blizzard. The more you can do to put the game out there in a positive light, the higher the chance that people will play it. Some people have more power to do that than others. Tournaments and organizers can cast a pretty awesome spotlight. TI and TI2 were awesome examples of that. Popular streamers can do that. Everyone can through word of mouth. And there are solid, concrete problems with the game that individuals have addressed. The maps sucked, and then we had Tal'Darim Altar, and it was amazing for its time, and then we had Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom and Ohana and, you know, however you feel about Atlantis Spacebear or Metropolis, the current map pool is way better than what we started with. That's down to community figures and people working hard to change the situation. Something was bad, attention was drawn to it, people created viable alternatives, and now we have a majority of non-Blizzard created maps on the ladder. Some people didn't like the colors, and an amazing guy created a mod that changed them. That's the kind of shit we can and should do. The problem is people choosing to take the approach Destiny was advocating. Something's bad, fuck it, blow it up and demand someone solve your problems. Yes, there are things only Blizzard can do. But there are also things we can do as a community.
And then Blizzard got rid of that amazing mod and made it unusable.. The thing is you have to see all this amazing shit we do? How much affect does it have? We're just delaying our decline.
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On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has...
Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game.
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On October 25 2012 08:55 rhs408 wrote:
Sorry for the retarded question, but can anyone link me to where I can watch or listen to this. Tried googling it (Inside the Game) but their website doesn't seem to have been updated in quite some time... ty
here you go bro: http://de.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/336653494
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On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game.
Gasp companies offer different levels of sponsorship. Razer sponsors $5k to SCII and $100k to LoL ... great...
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On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game.
and when one game shrinks continuously, and has a community that creates endless drama (and brings it to sponsors directly), but the 'other' community grows and doesn't act fucking retarded...does the money still continue flowing in forever?
I dunno. You'll have to ask Quake. I hear it's booming because companies have tons of money to toss around at games that have no community.
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On October 25 2012 08:55 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:52 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=6904&topic_id=218946#What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this: Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive? It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard. What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this: Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2, (also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run) Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely" But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Keep doing stuff. Keep streaming, keep making content. Idra can't change the UI, and Geoff can't add clan functionality. What they can do is put the game out there in its best possible light. What they do helps their brand but it also indirectly helps Blizzard. The more you can do to put the game out there in a positive light, the higher the chance that people will play it. Some people have more power to do that than others. Tournaments and organizers can cast a pretty awesome spotlight. TI and TI2 were awesome examples of that. Popular streamers can do that. Everyone can through word of mouth. And there are solid, concrete problems with the game that individuals have addressed. The maps sucked, and then we had Tal'Darim Altar, and it was amazing for its time, and then we had Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom and Ohana and, you know, however you feel about Atlantis Spacebear or Metropolis, the current map pool is way better than what we started with. That's down to community figures and people working hard to change the situation. Something was bad, attention was drawn to it, people created viable alternatives, and now we have a majority of non-Blizzard created maps on the ladder. Some people didn't like the colors, and an amazing guy created a mod that changed them. That's the kind of shit we can and should do. The problem is people choosing to take the approach Destiny was advocating. Something's bad, fuck it, blow it up and demand someone solve your problems. Yes, there are things only Blizzard can do. But there are also things we can do as a community. And then Blizzard got rid of that amazing mod and made it unusable.. The thing is you have to see all this amazing shit we do? How much affect does it have? We're just delaying our decline.
So, if that's your attitude, pick up your ball and go home.
What the community does has a major and massive impact on the game. Yeah, Blizzard made that mod unusable (they changed the graphics at the same time, bee tee dubs). They also have four community-created maps in their ladder (out of eight).
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On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has...
BW on Blizzard maps was not balanced. BW on maps made by pro mapmakers was.
Root JUST picked up a brand new sponsor. EG picked up a title sponsor not too long ago. IM picked up LG as a sponsor in April. A team like IM gets sponsors by having amazing performances, which few teams can pull off, but teams like EG and Root manage to find sponsors by reaching out to the community, creating content, running tournaments, etc.
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On October 25 2012 08:59 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game. and when one game shrinks continuously, and has a community that creates endless drama (and brings it to sponsors directly), but the 'other' community grows and doesn't act fucking retarded...does the money still continue flowing in forever?
Are you serious? The League community creates huge amounts of drama. Last I checked, no SC2 event has had someone, on camera, waving a swastika.
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On October 25 2012 08:54 yeastiality wrote:
I think the point is that people who are supposed to be "important community figures" and "involved in SC2 professionally" shouldn't be happy to settle for being in 5th place or whatever it is.
Don't pretend you know 'how business works' either. Idra doesn't, Incontrol doesn't, Destiny doesn't, DJWheat doesn't. They're gamers who have an audience, but in terms of "knowing stuff" they're still just gamers.
If you want to see how business works, start tallying up how many people leave SC2 to play other games. Note which games they switch to. You might discover a shocking trend!
They aren't in 5th place, they're in a healthy third. And no, I'm not a business expert, but it doesn't take a genius to know that you can still be more than profitable and stable without being the biggest brand. Yes, people leave the game. People also join... we can freak out about SelecT and sC and the SlayerS players, or we can be excited about the huge number of new players that have come into the scene over the past few months (KeSPA, players that have recently become good like Life or SortOf or Starnan or Giantt etc)
Except the MLB has a foundation and history that makes it incredibly hard to freak out about. It's a stable product that has been around for a century. It's completely different than SC 2 and much more organized, profitable and embedded in multiple cultures.
LoL has been around for less time as a pro game than SC2, so I don't really know what you're trying to argue here. Nothing in esports is stable, so saying we need to be more like LoL and that ESPORTS is super volatile and new and nobody really knows what to do business-wise is... contradictory, to say the least.
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On October 25 2012 08:58 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game. Gasp companies offer different levels of sponsorship. Razer sponsors $5k to SCII and $100k to LoL ... great...
Oh my gosh! Those goalposts moved so fast I BARELY EVEN SAW THEM.
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On October 25 2012 09:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:59 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game. and when one game shrinks continuously, and has a community that creates endless drama (and brings it to sponsors directly), but the 'other' community grows and doesn't act fucking retarded...does the money still continue flowing in forever? Are you serious? The League community creates huge amounts of drama. Last I checked, no SC2 event has had someone, on camera, waving a swastika.
I haven't heard about that. Was it posted on teamliquid in one of the 5 daily drama threads?
Nice dodge on the second part of my post, too. Quake is the perfect example of a game that shrunk too small to be sponsored. There are like 2 QL tournaments a year that anyone cares about, and the only person making a fucking Quake game right now is 2gd.
On October 25 2012 09:01 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:54 yeastiality wrote:
I think the point is that people who are supposed to be "important community figures" and "involved in SC2 professionally" shouldn't be happy to settle for being in 5th place or whatever it is.
Don't pretend you know 'how business works' either. Idra doesn't, Incontrol doesn't, Destiny doesn't, DJWheat doesn't. They're gamers who have an audience, but in terms of "knowing stuff" they're still just gamers.
If you want to see how business works, start tallying up how many people leave SC2 to play other games. Note which games they switch to. You might discover a shocking trend! They aren't in 5th place, they're in a healthy third. And no, I'm not a business expert, but it doesn't take a genius to know that you can still be more than profitable and stable without being the biggest brand. Yes, people leave the game. People also join... we can freak out about SelecT and sC and the SlayerS players, or we can be excited about the huge number of new players that have come into the scene over the past few months (KeSPA, players that have recently become good like Life or SortOf or Starnan or Giantt etc)
Or we can do both? We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Let me know when a person from outside Korea wins something from inside Korea, played against Koreans... until then the 'new players' are either beating low NA players at international events, or they've been playing broodwar for 5+ years and contracted to keep playing SC2 even if it blows.
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On October 25 2012 08:55 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:52 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=6904&topic_id=218946#What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this: Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive? It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard. What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this: Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2, (also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run) Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely" But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Keep doing stuff. Keep streaming, keep making content. Idra can't change the UI, and Geoff can't add clan functionality. What they can do is put the game out there in its best possible light. What they do helps their brand but it also indirectly helps Blizzard. The more you can do to put the game out there in a positive light, the higher the chance that people will play it. Some people have more power to do that than others. Tournaments and organizers can cast a pretty awesome spotlight. TI and TI2 were awesome examples of that. Popular streamers can do that. Everyone can through word of mouth. And there are solid, concrete problems with the game that individuals have addressed. The maps sucked, and then we had Tal'Darim Altar, and it was amazing for its time, and then we had Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom and Ohana and, you know, however you feel about Atlantis Spacebear or Metropolis, the current map pool is way better than what we started with. That's down to community figures and people working hard to change the situation. Something was bad, attention was drawn to it, people created viable alternatives, and now we have a majority of non-Blizzard created maps on the ladder. Some people didn't like the colors, and an amazing guy created a mod that changed them. That's the kind of shit we can and should do. The problem is people choosing to take the approach Destiny was advocating. Something's bad, fuck it, blow it up and demand someone solve your problems. Yes, there are things only Blizzard can do. But there are also things we can do as a community. And then Blizzard got rid of that amazing mod and made it unusable.. The thing is you have to see all this amazing shit we do? How much affect does it have? We're just delaying our decline.
It's funny because everything that you describe are things BLIZZARD changed (that no one else could've) because the community voiced their opinion on them, you know, exactly what Destiny is asking to happen.
If in your own story you would 'plug in' Idra's "fuck it, why bother? they never do anything"-aproach we'd still be using the same maps from season 1.
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On October 25 2012 09:00 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... BW on Blizzard maps was not balanced. BW on maps made by pro mapmakers was. Root JUST picked up a brand new sponsor. EG picked up a title sponsor not too long ago. IM picked up LG as a sponsor in April. A team like IM gets sponsors by having amazing performances, which few teams can pull off, but teams like EG and Root manage to find sponsors by reaching out to the community, creating content, running tournaments, etc.
I don't think you get it... getting a sponsor is great.. But how much do you think Das is sponsoring Root? 1k? 2k?
When the recent Na'vi DotA team captain got shouted a BMW... You gotta wonder if those sponsors mean shit.
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On October 25 2012 08:55 Pwnographics wrote:
And then Blizzard got rid of that amazing mod and made it unusable.. The thing is you have to see all this amazing shit we do? How much affect does it have? We're just delaying our decline.
That's a bit like saying "there's no point in living... All you're doing is stuff until you die"
Ofc SC2 will eventually die, but if we "delay the decline" for 15 years would you call that a success?
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On October 25 2012 09:01 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:54 yeastiality wrote:
I think the point is that people who are supposed to be "important community figures" and "involved in SC2 professionally" shouldn't be happy to settle for being in 5th place or whatever it is.
Don't pretend you know 'how business works' either. Idra doesn't, Incontrol doesn't, Destiny doesn't, DJWheat doesn't. They're gamers who have an audience, but in terms of "knowing stuff" they're still just gamers.
If you want to see how business works, start tallying up how many people leave SC2 to play other games. Note which games they switch to. You might discover a shocking trend! They aren't in 5th place, they're in a healthy third. And no, I'm not a business expert, but it doesn't take a genius to know that you can still be more than profitable and stable without being the biggest brand. Yes, people leave the game. People also join... we can freak out about SelecT and sC and the SlayerS players, or we can be excited about the huge number of new players that have come into the scene over the past few months (KeSPA, players that have recently become good like Life or SortOf or Starnan or Giantt etc) Show nested quote +Except the MLB has a foundation and history that makes it incredibly hard to freak out about. It's a stable product that has been around for a century. It's completely different than SC 2 and much more organized, profitable and embedded in multiple cultures. LoL has been around for less time as a pro game than SC2, so I don't really know what you're trying to argue here. Nothing in esports is stable, so saying we need to be more like LoL and that ESPORTS is super volatile and new and nobody really knows what to do business-wise is... contradictory, to say the least.
The point being is esports is nothing like tried and true traditional sports because too much is in flux. League is dominating SC 2 and SC 2 just needs to hang on while not losing too many fans and players to attrition that will naturally occur when people get bored with something. Games don't have the same permanence and ability to age well that real sports do, so it's a lot more possible for SC 2 to die out.
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On October 25 2012 08:58 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:55 rhs408 wrote:
Sorry for the retarded question, but can anyone link me to where I can watch or listen to this. Tried googling it (Inside the Game) but their website doesn't seem to have been updated in quite some time... ty here you go bro: http://de.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/336653494
Ty sir
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On October 25 2012 09:02 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:59 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game. and when one game shrinks continuously, and has a community that creates endless drama (and brings it to sponsors directly), but the 'other' community grows and doesn't act fucking retarded...does the money still continue flowing in forever? Are you serious? The League community creates huge amounts of drama. Last I checked, no SC2 event has had someone, on camera, waving a swastika. I haven't heard about that. Was it posted on teamliquid in one of the 5 daily drama threads? Nice dodge on the second part of my post, too. Quake is the perfect example of a game that shrunk too small to be sponsored. There are like 2 QL tournaments a year that anyone cares about, and the only person making a fucking Quake game right now is 2gd.
Quake Live is a freaking browser-based F2P game, and Quake's popularity was never all that because it was directly competing against CS1.6.
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On October 25 2012 09:03 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:00 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... BW on Blizzard maps was not balanced. BW on maps made by pro mapmakers was. Root JUST picked up a brand new sponsor. EG picked up a title sponsor not too long ago. IM picked up LG as a sponsor in April. A team like IM gets sponsors by having amazing performances, which few teams can pull off, but teams like EG and Root manage to find sponsors by reaching out to the community, creating content, running tournaments, etc. I don't think you get it... getting a sponsor is great.. But how much do you think Das is sponsoring Root? 1k? 2k? When the recent Na'vi DotA team captain got shouted a BMW... You gotta wonder if those sponsors mean shit.
I have no idea how much Das is sponsoring Root, but neither do you, so stop pulling numbers out of your ass.
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On October 25 2012 09:03 Khazroul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:55 Pwnographics wrote:
And then Blizzard got rid of that amazing mod and made it unusable.. The thing is you have to see all this amazing shit we do? How much affect does it have? We're just delaying our decline.
That's a bit like saying "there's no point in living... All you're doing is stuff until you die" Ofc SC2 will eventually die, but if we "delay the decline" for 15 years would you call that a success?
If you want 15 years of lower and lower prize pools, lower and lower player pools, and less and less coverage I can't deem that a success.
A success would be 10-15 years of increased prizepools etc then in the last year the game changes over i.e BW/DotA
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On October 25 2012 09:06 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:02 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:59 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 08:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:
[quote]
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc.
Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... Companies sponsor multiple games. Some - gasp - even sponsor multiple teams within the same game. and when one game shrinks continuously, and has a community that creates endless drama (and brings it to sponsors directly), but the 'other' community grows and doesn't act fucking retarded...does the money still continue flowing in forever? Are you serious? The League community creates huge amounts of drama. Last I checked, no SC2 event has had someone, on camera, waving a swastika. I haven't heard about that. Was it posted on teamliquid in one of the 5 daily drama threads? Nice dodge on the second part of my post, too. Quake is the perfect example of a game that shrunk too small to be sponsored. There are like 2 QL tournaments a year that anyone cares about, and the only person making a fucking Quake game right now is 2gd. Quake Live is a freaking browser-based F2P game, and Quake's popularity was never all that because it was directly competing against CS1.6.
Actually, QL has a subscription model as well. Part of the reason the game died is that the subscription model was used by the developers to euthanise it. Look into it if you want..it's pretty well documented.
Quake's popularity was quite high 'back in the day' also. It wasn't directly competing with CS before CS came out (i.e. Quake 1, the first esport with a major cash prize, or Quake 2, or Quake 3 which was one of the flagship games of all early esports leagues outside Korea)... it wasn't even directly competing with CS when both were in their prime. They were played and enjoyed by very different groups of people (like people want to pretend SC2 and LoL are). If you ask anyone who isn't full of shit about the history of esports outside korea, they will say something about Quake, and something about CS.
But one of the quake games can be run from your browser so none of that matters. Good thing you have to run steam to play CS.
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EPT
