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On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done.
The best thing that Blizzard did was staying the hell out of it, but back then there weren't any barriers or restrictions and they let things slide.
That was then. This is now. Anyway, I encourage people take the high road on this one because bitching and moaning solves nothing. There are better alternatives besides flooding our forums with all that bullshit. It's all about tack.
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On October 25 2012 09:07 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:03 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 09:00 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:53 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:39 TheAmazombie wrote:On October 25 2012 08:36 Pwnographics wrote:On October 25 2012 08:23 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 25 2012 08:13 EtohEtoh wrote:
What ITG is saying (though they said it in probably the most unproffesional way possible), is that they agree with Destiny, they just add something on to what Destiny is saying. It goes like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> If Blizzard doesn't fix SC2, what can the community do to keep SC2 alive?
It's simply adding another step, Incontrol assumes that Blizzard aren't going to fix SC2 (because they haven't over the last two years), and, since as a community we can take action, we should, and we should find ways of expanding the game ourselves as audience and organizers, and not leave it up to Blizzard.
What's funny is that Destiny said he wasn't part of Catz's initiative, which would go like this:
Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> Let's make sure Blizzard know how to fix SC2,
(also a valid plan of action, dunno why Geoff was being such a dick about this one, it's quite possible that Blizzard devs were disconnected from what would grow SC2 in the long run)
Destiny is somehow stuck at the 2nd step and he's resigned himself to doom-saying, which is probably the worst plan of action out of all these. (Blizzard messed up SC2 ------> Blizzard should fix SC2 -----> QQ), "I don't think the situation is savable, I think it's fucked completely"
But... but... complaining about Blizzard because your stream numbers are down is so much easier than creating actual content like tournaments, youtube videos, podcasts, etc. Seriously, I don't understand why Destiny and his legion of fanboys don't get that IdrA, Geoff, and Wheat were agreeing with him on all the Blizzard stuff. They would rather just spend their energy on things they know will help sc2, rather than waiting around on Blizzard. The most successful people in all of SC2 don't sit around all day complaining about the game, they go out and make it better. The problem is what will help Starcraft 2 w.o Blizzard? What can we do? IdrA/Incontrol haven't put a single idea out there. Blizz weren't there for BW, but they made it work. I am not saying I have ideas, but in BW they did not rely on Blizz really AT ALL and got it done. Exactly. People don't seem to know that BW wasn't even really a competitive game on its own. It wasn't even balanced. BW became a huge esport in Korea because of the people, mapmakers, players, teams, companies, and organizations outside of Korea. Blizzard provided the game and somewhat balanced units. And the EG guys don't have any ideas? They go on and on about how to improve tournaments, all the things teams should be doing to attract sponsors, they do shows like ITG, they produce content. Those are all things that help improve pro SC2. Wtf? Broodwar was balanced, all the imbalanced shit balanced out and best of all it was actually fun to watch. I would watch multiple skirmishes at 80-120/200 food players battle it out. Not wait 25 minutes for 2 players to hit 200/200 and collide heads. They try attract sponsors... Mate, when SCII stream has 50K viewers and LoL has 1million I don't think sponsors are going to give two shits about what great content or community SCII has... BW on Blizzard maps was not balanced. BW on maps made by pro mapmakers was. Root JUST picked up a brand new sponsor. EG picked up a title sponsor not too long ago. IM picked up LG as a sponsor in April. A team like IM gets sponsors by having amazing performances, which few teams can pull off, but teams like EG and Root manage to find sponsors by reaching out to the community, creating content, running tournaments, etc. I don't think you get it... getting a sponsor is great.. But how much do you think Das is sponsoring Root? 1k? 2k? When the recent Na'vi DotA team captain got shouted a BMW... You gotta wonder if those sponsors mean shit. I have no idea how much Das is sponsoring Root, but neither do you, so stop pulling numbers out of your ass.
Are you fucking backwards? When people post multiple numbers with question marks behind them it means they aren't sure, not fucking pulling statistical facts out of their notebook.
I can assure you one thing, their sponsorship won't be worth a quarter of a BMW.
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We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are.
This is true in any competitive sport/game. That's why it's competitive, not everyone can be successful. Most people that go into the NFL (I know football better than other sports, but I'm sure the same applies) only last for a little more than 3 years because they just aren't good enough. And, since the average for players that are good enough is much longer (7-10 years), that means that a large majority only play for under 3 years.
Let me know when a person from outside Korea wins something from inside Korea, played against Koreans... until then the 'new players' are either beating low NA players at international events
Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grrrr... (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against.
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Why are you being so pessimistic? I understood Catz's initiative, you got an answer out of blizzard.
now people are QQing simply because they like the drama.
I hate to break it to you, we already know that LoL has bigger numbers than SC2, we already know that SC2 numbers are declining, and we are sad to see SC2s domination over the streaming market fade.
now tell me about something else, the QQing is like seeing a reddit repost every 5 minutes.
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On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against.
I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention.
Every time you see a "New player!" or "New team!" thread in SC2 General it's someone farming Likes and retweets. It's not someone winning a tournament. When's the last time MVP told you where to follow him on twitter? He didn't - he was too busy murdering everyone because he's actually a competitor.
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Thank you, and quoting this so other people don't have to dig through 60 pages of crap!
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On October 25 2012 09:17 EtohEtoh wrote:
Why are you being so pessimistic? I understood Catz's initiative, you got an answer out of blizzard.
now people are QQing simply because they like the drama.
I hate to break it to you, we already know that LoL has bigger numbers than SC2, we already know that SC2 numbers are declining, and we are sad to see SC2s domination over the streaming market fade.
now tell me about something else, the QQing is like seeing a reddit repost every 5 minutes.
People are QQ'ing because our community could be so easily increased if Blizzard did some things they were able to do 10 years back.
When I bought WC3 I got 1000's of hours out of that game in UMS, when I got SC2 I got 10 hours out of UMS.
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On October 25 2012 09:20 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:17 EtohEtoh wrote:
Why are you being so pessimistic? I understood Catz's initiative, you got an answer out of blizzard.
now people are QQing simply because they like the drama.
I hate to break it to you, we already know that LoL has bigger numbers than SC2, we already know that SC2 numbers are declining, and we are sad to see SC2s domination over the streaming market fade.
now tell me about something else, the QQing is like seeing a reddit repost every 5 minutes. People are QQ'ing because our community could be so easily increased if Blizzard did some things they were able to do 10 years back. When I bought WC3 I got 1000's of hours out of that game in UMS, when I got SC2 I got 10 hours out of UMS.
Well, if I learned anything from Incontrol's rambling incoherent responses to Destiny, it's that we as a community can fix these things ourselves.
Perhaps we should all start modding the game and getting our accounts banned?
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On October 25 2012 09:20 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:17 EtohEtoh wrote:
Why are you being so pessimistic? I understood Catz's initiative, you got an answer out of blizzard.
now people are QQing simply because they like the drama.
I hate to break it to you, we already know that LoL has bigger numbers than SC2, we already know that SC2 numbers are declining, and we are sad to see SC2s domination over the streaming market fade.
now tell me about something else, the QQing is like seeing a reddit repost every 5 minutes. People are QQ'ing because our community could be so easily increased if Blizzard did some things they were able to do 10 years back. When I bought WC3 I got 1000's of hours out of that game in UMS, when I got SC2 I got 10 hours out of UMS.
Yes. we know that aswell.
infact I QQed about it back when WoL was released
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On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention.
The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics).
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On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics).
Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well.
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On October 25 2012 09:25 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics). Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well.
like boxer, one of the paragons of starcraft and RTS gaming in general
but that doesn't matter because my boy idra is still hangin' on right?
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On October 25 2012 09:25 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics). Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well.
Did you read the part immediately after where I explained why the four players that left for LoL is not a big deal, or are you just trying to stir up shit for no reason?
like boxer, one of the paragons of starcraft and RTS gaming in general
boxer is a coach now. he didn't leave the RTS scene, he stopped playing (and let's be honest, we could've seen that coming a year ago)
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On October 25 2012 09:27 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:25 Serpico wrote:On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics). Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well. Did you read the part immediately after where I explained why the four players that left for LoL is not a big deal, or are you just trying to stir up shit for no reason? boxer is a coach now. he didn't leave the RTS scene, he stopped playing (and let's be honest, we could've seen that coming a year ago)
do you think he would have left SC2 while it was still 'on the rise' if he enjoyed the game and saw that it had a bright, stable future of growth? the guy isn't dumb.
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On October 25 2012 09:20 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:17 EtohEtoh wrote:
Why are you being so pessimistic? I understood Catz's initiative, you got an answer out of blizzard.
now people are QQing simply because they like the drama.
I hate to break it to you, we already know that LoL has bigger numbers than SC2, we already know that SC2 numbers are declining, and we are sad to see SC2s domination over the streaming market fade.
now tell me about something else, the QQing is like seeing a reddit repost every 5 minutes. People are QQ'ing because our community could be so easily increased if Blizzard did some things they were able to do 10 years back. When I bought WC3 I got 1000's of hours out of that game in UMS, when I got SC2 I got 10 hours out of UMS.
Is this really true? Times have changed since BW and WC3. Custom games were huge then, yes. HL1 had a huge, vibrant mod scene. HL2 was supposed to build on that, providing even greater support. The HL2 mod scene is a shadow of its former self. Is it because the tools were worse? Because the UI was shit? No, the tools were (in my understanding) just as good and the UI was the same. The players preferences had changed.
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On October 25 2012 09:29 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:27 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:25 Serpico wrote:On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics). Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well. Did you read the part immediately after where I explained why the four players that left for LoL is not a big deal, or are you just trying to stir up shit for no reason? like boxer, one of the paragons of starcraft and RTS gaming in general boxer is a coach now. he didn't leave the RTS scene, he stopped playing (and let's be honest, we could've seen that coming a year ago) he left the RTS scene because he coaches a MOBA now do you think he would have left SC2 while it was still 'on the rise' if he enjoyed the game and saw that it had a bright, stable future of growth? the guy isn't dumb.
What? Are you saying Boxer is coaching a MOBA?
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On October 25 2012 09:30 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:29 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:27 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:25 Serpico wrote:On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics). Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well. Did you read the part immediately after where I explained why the four players that left for LoL is not a big deal, or are you just trying to stir up shit for no reason? like boxer, one of the paragons of starcraft and RTS gaming in general boxer is a coach now. he didn't leave the RTS scene, he stopped playing (and let's be honest, we could've seen that coming a year ago) he left the RTS scene because he coaches a MOBA now do you think he would have left SC2 while it was still 'on the rise' if he enjoyed the game and saw that it had a bright, stable future of growth? the guy isn't dumb. What? Are you saying Boxer is coaching a MOBA?
sorry, got my drama threads mixed up. edited the post to remove that 
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Incontrol, Idra and especially djWHEAT act like children. Grow up. Props to PainUser for being a reasonable person.
edit: Read incontrol's response here. What a laughably immature person. Keep being immature and whining when you get called out on it big guy.
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On October 25 2012 09:29 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 09:27 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:25 Serpico wrote:On October 25 2012 09:22 corpuscle wrote:On October 25 2012 09:18 yeastiality wrote:On October 25 2012 09:15 corpuscle wrote:We can tally how many people try for 2+ years to make a career out of SC2 and can't do it (whether for lack of support, lack of real exciting competition, or something else), and we can put that against how many 'up and coming' players there are. Not relevant at all. Nobody except Grr! (I think) won a single event against Koreans in BW, ever, and BW is the golden idol of amazingness that everyone judges SC2 against. I dunno, I think it's pretty relevant because the only people pretending SC2 isn't being swept away are NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention. The NA players who thrive on drama and social media attention are also the only ones pretending SC2 is being swept away. Do you think the Koreans give a shit? The SlayerS players left because their team house was collapsing around them and the rest of their peers were treating them like shit so they stopped practicing SC2 and switched to LoL. sC has been in and out of the hospital for his entire career and probably just wants to play a game that doesn't require such demanding practice (LoL is much more mental so you can stay relevant by studying and watching rather than massing games for mechanics). Yes because they have people switching to LoL as well. Did you read the part immediately after where I explained why the four players that left for LoL is not a big deal, or are you just trying to stir up shit for no reason? like boxer, one of the paragons of starcraft and RTS gaming in general boxer is a coach now. he didn't leave the RTS scene, he stopped playing (and let's be honest, we could've seen that coming a year ago) do you think he would have left SC2 while it was still 'on the rise' if he enjoyed the game and saw that it had a bright, stable future of growth? the guy isn't dumb.
What are you talking about? He's the head SC2 coach on SKT.
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On October 25 2012 09:02 latan wrote:
If in your own story you would 'plug in' Idra's "fuck it, why bother? they never do anything"-aproach we'd still be using the same maps from season 1.
I'll leave you to figure out how long shakuras and taldarim have been in the map pool.
and then of course, there's the 2s/3s/4v4 maps.
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EPT
