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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 04 2011 20:52 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:48 nihlon wrote:On May 04 2011 20:44 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:37 Gigaudas wrote:On May 04 2011 20:34 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:29 Dingobloo wrote:On May 04 2011 20:11 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:08 freetgy wrote:On May 04 2011 20:04 Falcor wrote:
so what ur saying is army balls clashing into each other is a good thing?
Id prefer my infestors to be faster then my army so i can micro manage my fragile and expensive units easier thank you they have the biggest range anyway, don't get that reason for Micro. While you had to micro pre this patch, now you can play alot more usual flank a-move style with good positioning since there speed matches the rest of the army (i.e. Hydras) That the whole reason this it is considered a buff. No need for baby sitting anymore. We need to start adding skill cap to the vocabulary. The speed reduction is plainly a nerf, but for the most part it makes it easier to use. We shouldn't say "this is a buff"; we should say that "it decreases the skill cap". Otherwise we're going to be talking about this forever. Having to know when to commit with infestors does not reduce the skill cap, sorry. It makes large army management easier, but it also makes them harder to micro, harder to retreat, and harder to get out of range of ghosts. You're missing the point. For lower tier players who don't keep their army together as they're moving around, this makes things a lot easier -- so yes, it lowers the skill cap. Above that it has less effect except when you're using it for harassment. How is it easier, the Infestors are already slower than most popular Zerg units? What? Roach is 2.25, as is hydra. Infestor was 2.5, and now it's 2.25. Roach is 3.0 with lair tech. I don't think that constitutes "most". Zerglings are off the charts and need to be managed separately anyway, so they don't even count. The point is that there are more units traveling at the same speed now -- not that infestor is faster or slower than another. Even noobs know how to research roach speed. And hydra... lolz. He said the popular units. You think hydras aren't popular?? http://www.sc2replayed.com/statisticsUnit distribution: zerglings top at 42.61%, hydras second at 13.76%, roaches third at 13.26%.
I would take those statistics with a huge grain of salt.
The statistics say that BC use outnumbers Ghost use despite the latter being a much more integral part of TvP play. I also doubt that Ultra use outnumbers Infestor use, especially at high levels.
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You know the statistic I found surprising there is, templars are actually more common than collosi, pretty weird.
Edit:But then it's a replay website, not statistics of all games played at high level. So, some of it might just be noob replays showing off massing 25 battle cruisers off one base and a moving or some bad games of the like. That is not really indicative of unit usage.
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On May 04 2011 20:58 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:52 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:48 nihlon wrote:On May 04 2011 20:44 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:37 Gigaudas wrote:On May 04 2011 20:34 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:29 Dingobloo wrote:On May 04 2011 20:11 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:08 freetgy wrote:On May 04 2011 20:04 Falcor wrote:
so what ur saying is army balls clashing into each other is a good thing?
Id prefer my infestors to be faster then my army so i can micro manage my fragile and expensive units easier thank you they have the biggest range anyway, don't get that reason for Micro. While you had to micro pre this patch, now you can play alot more usual flank a-move style with good positioning since there speed matches the rest of the army (i.e. Hydras) That the whole reason this it is considered a buff. No need for baby sitting anymore. We need to start adding skill cap to the vocabulary. The speed reduction is plainly a nerf, but for the most part it makes it easier to use. We shouldn't say "this is a buff"; we should say that "it decreases the skill cap". Otherwise we're going to be talking about this forever. Having to know when to commit with infestors does not reduce the skill cap, sorry. It makes large army management easier, but it also makes them harder to micro, harder to retreat, and harder to get out of range of ghosts. You're missing the point. For lower tier players who don't keep their army together as they're moving around, this makes things a lot easier -- so yes, it lowers the skill cap. Above that it has less effect except when you're using it for harassment. How is it easier, the Infestors are already slower than most popular Zerg units? What? Roach is 2.25, as is hydra. Infestor was 2.5, and now it's 2.25. Roach is 3.0 with lair tech. I don't think that constitutes "most". Zerglings are off the charts and need to be managed separately anyway, so they don't even count. The point is that there are more units traveling at the same speed now -- not that infestor is faster or slower than another. Even noobs know how to research roach speed. And hydra... lolz. He said the popular units. You think hydras aren't popular?? http://www.sc2replayed.com/statisticsUnit distribution: zerglings top at 42.61%, hydras second at 13.76%, roaches third at 13.26%. I would take those statistics with a huge grain of salt. The statistics say that BC use outnumbers Ghost use despite the latter being a much more integral part of TvP play. I also doubt that Ultra use outnumbers Infestor use, especially at high levels.
Hrm yeah wtf.
Either way I find it highly unlikely that hydras are unpopular.
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Protoss early aggression is gonna be pretty weak. Fast sentries will help with early base defense, but nobody uses sentries to attack without support from other gateway units, who will now come out pretty slow. I mean, the same early (pre-WG) Zealot and early Stalker strats will be as viable as they always were..which isn't very. Since every early Toss timing push revolved around WG research, I think it will be a little while before Protoss figures out any really viable ways to put pressure on their opponents in the early game.
That, in turn, is a major buff to ZvP, because Zerg can drone more aggressively early on (which sets them up for better econ in the mid and late game) and has more leeway with early scouting.
As a Toss, however, I'm okay with that...because this is gonna make PvP infinitely more playable. No 4-gate wars, no Zealot wars...it makes the early and mid game of PvP much more playable.
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On May 04 2011 21:01 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On May 04 2011 20:52 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:48 nihlon wrote:On May 04 2011 20:44 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:37 Gigaudas wrote:On May 04 2011 20:34 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:29 Dingobloo wrote:On May 04 2011 20:11 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:08 freetgy wrote:
[quote]
they have the biggest range anyway, don't get that reason for Micro.
While you had to micro pre this patch, now you can play alot more usual flank a-move style with good positioning since there speed matches the rest of the army (i.e. Hydras)
That the whole reason this it is considered a buff. No need for baby sitting anymore. We need to start adding skill cap to the vocabulary. The speed reduction is plainly a nerf, but for the most part it makes it easier to use. We shouldn't say "this is a buff"; we should say that "it decreases the skill cap". Otherwise we're going to be talking about this forever. Having to know when to commit with infestors does not reduce the skill cap, sorry. It makes large army management easier, but it also makes them harder to micro, harder to retreat, and harder to get out of range of ghosts. You're missing the point. For lower tier players who don't keep their army together as they're moving around, this makes things a lot easier -- so yes, it lowers the skill cap. Above that it has less effect except when you're using it for harassment. How is it easier, the Infestors are already slower than most popular Zerg units? What? Roach is 2.25, as is hydra. Infestor was 2.5, and now it's 2.25. Roach is 3.0 with lair tech. I don't think that constitutes "most". Zerglings are off the charts and need to be managed separately anyway, so they don't even count. The point is that there are more units traveling at the same speed now -- not that infestor is faster or slower than another. Even noobs know how to research roach speed. And hydra... lolz. He said the popular units. You think hydras aren't popular?? http://www.sc2replayed.com/statisticsUnit distribution: zerglings top at 42.61%, hydras second at 13.76%, roaches third at 13.26%. I would take those statistics with a huge grain of salt. The statistics say that BC use outnumbers Ghost use despite the latter being a much more integral part of TvP play. I also doubt that Ultra use outnumbers Infestor use, especially at high levels. Hrm yeah wtf. Either way I find it highly unlikely that hydras are unpopular.
They do find tons of use in ZvP, but Roaches are also quite common in that matchup. In addition, pure Hydra is extremely fragile and need the meat of supporting Roaches to be viable against most Protoss balls.
Hydras are never used in any recent ZvTs that I've seen, especially since Ling+Baneling+Muta is the prevalent strat in that matchup.
Roach+Hydra used to be the dominant strat in ZvZ, but nowadays I see much more Roach+Infestor play at higher levels, especially since the recent Infestor buff tears apart pure Roach compositions.
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whay they do this to thors ? they agen going to get killed by feadback...and what they gona 250mm canon it ? stalkers rouchs ? colloss maby ./.. lol...
infestor change its ok i think.... but i think fungel need more cool down,,,, hudge cool down...
they should change thor speed it too slow right now....on big maps especialy...
plz blizzard : thor speed buff, sige tanks 50 to 60 dps agnest armored , stim nerf ,,, fungel cool down more duration (a lot more) collos nerf dps ,, banglings i think speed nerf or something (less dps agenst armored).....FF range nerf or something...
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On May 04 2011 21:06 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 21:01 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On May 04 2011 20:52 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:48 nihlon wrote:On May 04 2011 20:44 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:37 Gigaudas wrote:On May 04 2011 20:34 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:29 Dingobloo wrote:On May 04 2011 20:11 dump wrote:
[quote]
We need to start adding skill cap to the vocabulary. The speed reduction is plainly a nerf, but for the most part it makes it easier to use.
We shouldn't say "this is a buff"; we should say that "it decreases the skill cap". Otherwise we're going to be talking about this forever. Having to know when to commit with infestors does not reduce the skill cap, sorry. It makes large army management easier, but it also makes them harder to micro, harder to retreat, and harder to get out of range of ghosts. You're missing the point. For lower tier players who don't keep their army together as they're moving around, this makes things a lot easier -- so yes, it lowers the skill cap. Above that it has less effect except when you're using it for harassment. How is it easier, the Infestors are already slower than most popular Zerg units? What? Roach is 2.25, as is hydra. Infestor was 2.5, and now it's 2.25. Roach is 3.0 with lair tech. I don't think that constitutes "most". Zerglings are off the charts and need to be managed separately anyway, so they don't even count. The point is that there are more units traveling at the same speed now -- not that infestor is faster or slower than another. Even noobs know how to research roach speed. And hydra... lolz. He said the popular units. You think hydras aren't popular?? http://www.sc2replayed.com/statisticsUnit distribution: zerglings top at 42.61%, hydras second at 13.76%, roaches third at 13.26%. I would take those statistics with a huge grain of salt. The statistics say that BC use outnumbers Ghost use despite the latter being a much more integral part of TvP play. I also doubt that Ultra use outnumbers Infestor use, especially at high levels. Hrm yeah wtf. Either way I find it highly unlikely that hydras are unpopular. They do find tons of use in ZvP, but Roaches are also quite common in that matchup. In addition, pure Hydra is extremely fragile and need the meat of supporting Roaches to be viable against most Protoss balls. Hydras are never used in any recent ZvTs that I've seen, especially since Ling+Baneling+Muta is the prevalent strat in that matchup. Roach+Hydra used to be the dominant strat in ZvZ, but nowadays I see much more Roach+Infestor play at higher levels, especially since the recent Infestor buff tears apart pure Roach compositions.
We were discussing how having infestors move at the same rate as another unit instead of moving at their own rate makes them easier to manage at the lower levels, and thus if anything, is not a buff but a skill cap decrease.
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The thor change is terrible, they've barely shown to be viable and they are nerfing them...
If they hate the ability so much they should remove it or if they just don't want it to be available so early they should increase the cooldown, but no... they want it to be a drawback for the thors...
On May 04 2011 19:59 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:26 Sir_J wrote:Reducing the speed being a buff? Make their speed zero then so they will be like buildings when they spawn, then zerg will be truly OP ![[image loading]](http://www.forplay.bg/forums/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/facepalm1.gif) if stalker were as fast as Zealots or Immortals it could be considered a buff for the Army. sure the individual unit is nerfed, but the army control gets alot easier. A Army moves as fast as the slowest Unit so unless you are using pure infestors it isn't really a nerf. Also let not forget creep!
The infestor is the slowest unit, so "it isn't really a nerf" if you are not using infestors at all or you're using hydras without spreading creep.
Helping the 1a syndrome is not a good thing.
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I embrace the Archon changes 
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If only Strike Cannons did damage faster than 6 seconds had a faster cast time and dealt splash
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I would rather they remove the Strike Cannon ability completely than put energy back. Thors will now be destroyed by Feedback.
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awwwwwwwwww yeahhhhh love this version on ptr :D
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I think it would be useful to change the title, add updated in May or something. This forum is my main source of info, and I almost missed it.
I like the changes, I like everything that nerfs thors or collossus which are IMO horribly designed. I just wish the nerf would affect zerg!
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On May 04 2011 21:15 rebotfc wrote:
I would rather they remove the Strike Cannon ability completely than put energy back. Thors will now be destroyed by Feedback.
Give Thor an Ability =D like Anti Psionic Armor, reduce the amount of spell damage it takes, then they'll be feed back fodders, More feed back on the thor means less storms for the protoss
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On May 04 2011 20:57 Gulzt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:41 Telcontar wrote:
Please don't say Thors will still be viable. Can you even recall a pro ever using a mass thor strategy when they had energy and required 150 of it to use strike cannon? NO and there's a good reason for that. You can theorise all you want about getting ghosts to emp your own thors but without the actual ability to use strike cannons against immortals and colossi and the fact that having to get ghosts will be a requirement whenever you go mass thor which will eat into your upgrades as well as viking production will mean the strat will be virtually dead.
I'm still hoping that Blizzard will come to their senses and not implement this change in the actual patch. Have all your thors destroy a rock before you engage might do the trick too.
That seems ridiculous though, I have to buy a 150/150 upgrade so that I can NOT use the ability in fights, and instead use it on a rock.
If strike cannon gibbing immortals is actually that big a deal (I don't go thors in TvP much so I wouldn't know) then just remove strike cannons entirely, and they really wont be missed. Instead we now have a situation where thors either have a nice 200 energy weakspot for HTs, or i spend 150/150 on an upgrade so that i can shoot a rock before I move out... Whether this is a big deal or not is irrelevant, the point is it's stupid game design.
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On May 04 2011 20:52 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:48 nihlon wrote:On May 04 2011 20:44 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:37 Gigaudas wrote:On May 04 2011 20:34 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:29 Dingobloo wrote:On May 04 2011 20:11 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 20:08 freetgy wrote:On May 04 2011 20:04 Falcor wrote:
so what ur saying is army balls clashing into each other is a good thing?
Id prefer my infestors to be faster then my army so i can micro manage my fragile and expensive units easier thank you they have the biggest range anyway, don't get that reason for Micro. While you had to micro pre this patch, now you can play alot more usual flank a-move style with good positioning since there speed matches the rest of the army (i.e. Hydras) That the whole reason this it is considered a buff. No need for baby sitting anymore. We need to start adding skill cap to the vocabulary. The speed reduction is plainly a nerf, but for the most part it makes it easier to use. We shouldn't say "this is a buff"; we should say that "it decreases the skill cap". Otherwise we're going to be talking about this forever. Having to know when to commit with infestors does not reduce the skill cap, sorry. It makes large army management easier, but it also makes them harder to micro, harder to retreat, and harder to get out of range of ghosts. You're missing the point. For lower tier players who don't keep their army together as they're moving around, this makes things a lot easier -- so yes, it lowers the skill cap. Above that it has less effect except when you're using it for harassment. How is it easier, the Infestors are already slower than most popular Zerg units? What? Roach is 2.25, as is hydra. Infestor was 2.5, and now it's 2.25. Roach is 3.0 with lair tech. I don't think that constitutes "most". Zerglings are off the charts and need to be managed separately anyway, so they don't even count. The point is that there are more units traveling at the same speed now -- not that infestor is faster or slower than another. Even noobs know how to research roach speed. And hydra... lolz. He said the popular units. You think hydras aren't popular?? http://www.sc2replayed.com/statisticsUnit distribution: zerglings top at 42.61%, hydras second at 13.76%, roaches third at 13.26%.
You can't play a lot of zerg...
And those statistic mean absolutely nothing. You can't with an honest face tell me that people are making more hydras then roaches if you have any clue what you are doing. They are essentially useless in ZvT, and pointless in ZvP if you opponent makes collosi. In ZvZ a lot of players have basically replaced them with infestors. Tell me one pro zerg player that makes hydras consistently? They are a basically an emergancy unit when you fast need anti-air or in situations where you opponents let you make use of their range (mostly ZvP). But they are by no means "popular"
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On May 04 2011 21:21 NikonTC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:57 Gulzt wrote:On May 04 2011 20:41 Telcontar wrote:
Please don't say Thors will still be viable. Can you even recall a pro ever using a mass thor strategy when they had energy and required 150 of it to use strike cannon? NO and there's a good reason for that. You can theorise all you want about getting ghosts to emp your own thors but without the actual ability to use strike cannons against immortals and colossi and the fact that having to get ghosts will be a requirement whenever you go mass thor which will eat into your upgrades as well as viking production will mean the strat will be virtually dead.
I'm still hoping that Blizzard will come to their senses and not implement this change in the actual patch. Have all your thors destroy a rock before you engage might do the trick too. That seems ridiculous though, I have to buy a 150/150 upgrade so that I can NOT use the ability in fights, and instead use it on a rock. If strike cannon gibbing immortals is actually that big a deal (I don't go thors in TvP much so I wouldn't know) then just remove strike cannons entirely, and they really wont be missed. Instead we now have a situation where thors either have a nice 200 energy weakspot for HTs, or i spend 150/150 on an upgrade so that i can shoot a rock before I move out... Whether this is a big deal or not is irrelevant, the point is it's stupid game design.
Yep, so probably the terrans are forced to find a better way to use it than shooting rocks 
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On May 04 2011 21:21 NikonTC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 20:57 Gulzt wrote:On May 04 2011 20:41 Telcontar wrote:
Please don't say Thors will still be viable. Can you even recall a pro ever using a mass thor strategy when they had energy and required 150 of it to use strike cannon? NO and there's a good reason for that. You can theorise all you want about getting ghosts to emp your own thors but without the actual ability to use strike cannons against immortals and colossi and the fact that having to get ghosts will be a requirement whenever you go mass thor which will eat into your upgrades as well as viking production will mean the strat will be virtually dead.
I'm still hoping that Blizzard will come to their senses and not implement this change in the actual patch. Have all your thors destroy a rock before you engage might do the trick too. That seems ridiculous though, I have to buy a 150/150 upgrade so that I can NOT use the ability in fights, and instead use it on a rock. If strike cannon gibbing immortals is actually that big a deal (I don't go thors in pvt much so I wouldn't know) then just remove strike cannons entirely, and they really wont be missed. Instead we now have a situation where thors either have a nice 200 energy weakspot for HTs, or i spend 150/150 on an upgrade so that i can shoot a rock before I move out... Whether this is a big deal or not is irrelevant, the point is it's stupid game design.
They should be making Phoenixes to save those immortals =D
I'd rather just EMP my thors
They should make snipe shield piercing , that would be awesome, as in it deals direct hull damage while leaving the shield intact. that'd be baller
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I'm so sad for the Thor nerf TT, it was the central piece of my late game compositions. If strike cannons is still a reserchable abilitie I will not get it. If not... I'm clueless about what to do late game that is not countered by templars. Time to practice marine/tank/banshee one-base all-ins.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
You know guys, they probably made this change to the Thor because practically every single one of Protoss' ground units is countered by Thors once they have Strike Cannons.
Terrans should use Thors more. Thorzain - MC for example on Crossfire.
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EPT
