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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. | ||
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RoachyRoach
81 Posts
The fact that they can just implode thier buildings and get cash is kinda weird. With an SCV salvaging it would make more sense, and would fix alot of the QQ abount bunkers. Make it take like 10seconds for the SCV to dismantle. The purpose of salvage should not be "Oh Shit my bunker is going to die, SALVAGE!" it should be "well I dont need this anymore, Im going to recycle these minerals." Offensive SCVless salvaging is just silly. | ||
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KazeHydra
Japan2788 Posts
On April 28 2011 03:44 NicolBolas wrote: You mean, besides the fact that Barracks+Reactor costs less than 2 Barracks? If you have 75 unit producing structures, any race can re-max quickly given the money to do so. That's just how the game works. The question is how much it costs to get that many unit-producing structures. The Zerg are cheapest in this regard, as they can stockpile lots of larva at hatcheries when they're maxed. You're quoting him out of context. He was just replying to someone making a statement about pure time requirements of reinforcing and saying the time it takes to make 2 marines out of a reactor or 2 barracks is the same. However, you are right that it's quite important to look at cost and not just time. Protoss reinforces the fastest but cost much more than Terran/Zerg units in general. I think a lot of people are forgetting this and making arguments about situations that almost never happen (end game, both armies maxed, both sides with 30+ production buildings, and both banking enough to go to med school). | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
the only reason zerg can't reinforce as fast as broodwar is because sc2 metagame zerg doesn't mass expand... they take moderately fast 3-4 expansions and then stop. that's like a terran having 3 actively mining bases but only having 4 rax, a factory and a starport. getting to 200/200 and then stockpile with no future production plan to spend the resources faster. to make it worse, zerg don't over-make an army due to the drone mechanic. so they might need to stop droning and make an instant army. good luck doing that with 3-4 hatch, i hope your inject is almost finished. my point? zerg should constantly mass expand - being extremely greedy with hatcheries. they are not expensive - only costing the equivalent of about 2 hydra or 3 roaches which most zerg players throw away for free without batting an eyelid. you can't keep them all alive, but i believe it was darwin that said "zerg create more offspring than can survive". do it. | ||
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coheN100
Germany49 Posts
On April 28 2011 03:44 NicolBolas wrote: You mean, besides the fact that Barracks+Reactor costs less than 2 Barracks? If you have 75 unit producing structures, any race can re-max quickly given the money to do so. That's just how the game works. The question is how much it costs to get that many unit-producing structures. The Zerg are cheapest in this regard, as they can stockpile lots of larva at hatcheries when they're maxed. 2 barracks = 300mins 1barack + Reactor = 200 mins + 50 gas if u take mins : gas = 2:1 it means that 50gas are like 100mins. so they cost exactly the same = 300 mins if u consider that gas is important in the terran early game (upgrades etc) u will see that building 2 barracks instead of 1 barack with reactor is +value | ||
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Joementum
787 Posts
On April 28 2011 03:28 hitman133 wrote: Don't be bullshit man Toss can max out instantly b/c you suck and let him have 5k in bank with 30 gates. There's no way Protoss can re-max as fast as Zerg cheap shit units. DO you realize that even tier 1 units from protoss are more expensive than roaches, hydras ? Mutal is 100/100 but they are 10x better than phoenix in harassing. Gosh, Zerg players are so ignorant with their point of view. User was temp banned for this post. Rage, much? It was an idea or a "What if" scenario that ran through my head. Zerg units are cheap as shit, but your units are so much better than ours. Blink Stalkers, alone, destroy most of the Zerg army, including Hydras. Look at it this way; after the battle, Protoss warps in 10 Stalkers and Zerg maxes out on roaches again (let's say 30). By the time the roaches pop (27 seconds), Protoss will be 8 seconds away from another warp-in and the time the roaches take to cross the map would be enough for Toss to get that 2nd warp-in. That's 20 more units for Protoss, that are more efficient than roaches, against 30 roaches. The Stalkers will own the roaches hands down. This is theoretical, of course. It's just my view on the game too. It's not to be taken too seriously. | ||
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
On April 28 2011 03:42 Rischardo wrote: Really? Think about the defensive structures for Toss and Zerg that don't require food. Toss: Photon cannons Zerg: Spine/Spore Crawlers Terran: Missile Turret and Planetary Fortress So the only early game Terran defensive structure that can shoot ground requires 1-4 food to actually be useful whereas Zerg and Toss get their structures completely for free. Zerg and Toss don't have to keep a small squad to deter small drops/back stabs. Terrans are the supposedly the "turtling" race, but our best "defense" all require food (siege tanks/bunkers). You don't know how many times I would have loved to have something like a photon cannon or spine crawler in my mineral line to stop the ground harass killing my workers because they're outside the range of my planetary. 300 minerals = Bunker + 3 marines = ~ 21 DPS (shoots ground + air) 2 spine crawlers = ~ 18 DPS (shoots ground) 2 cannons = ~ 32 DPS (shoots ground + air + detect) So, who is getting screwed? On April 28 2011 03:42 Rischardo wrote: As a Terran player, I don't mind the new 75% salvage rate, but to have none at all would be preposterous given the added costs of making bunkers actually useable as a defensive structure. And actually, I think bunkers could use a little bit of a buff. Hear me out; Terrans arguably have the worst permanent detection solution (Toss: T2 Observer Zerg: T2 Overseer Terran: T3 Raven). The Raven not only takes the longest to get to, but also has the longest build time and cost. Missile Turrets? | ||
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gulshngill
Malaysia140 Posts
Archon buff: best change of them all! no more kiting by marauders! | ||
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
Rest of the changes seem decent, wonder how it'll change early protoss game. ps. also hope patches are not released in middle of GSL or 2days before an MLG orso (but i guess if blizzard have to consider the major events, never is a good time to release a patch) | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On April 28 2011 03:58 coheN100 wrote: 2 barracks = 300mins 1barack + Reactor = 200 mins + 50 gas if u take mins : gas = 2:1 it means that 50gas are like 100mins. so they cost exactly the same = 300 mins if u consider that gas is important in the terran early game (upgrades etc) u will see that building 2 barracks instead of 1 barack with reactor is +value It's not really early game when the reinforcing is needed and I'm pretty sure Terran is the race that needs gas the least in the later stages of the game. | ||
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Joementum
787 Posts
On April 28 2011 04:01 kawaiiryuko wrote: 300 minerals = Bunker + 3 marines = ~ 21 DPS (shoots ground + air) 2 spine crawlers = ~ 18 DPS (shoots ground) 2 cannons = ~ 32 DPS (shoots ground + air + detect) So, who is getting screwed? Missile Turrets? Let's not forget that Marines have stim. About 31.5 DPS with stim, so it's on par with cannons almost. This just really shows how bad Zerg static D really is O_O. I always thought it was great. I would also argue that Terrans have the best ability that gives them detection. Scan can save Terran armies quite easily if they spot some DTs or Burrowed roaches. Protoss/Zerg can't really do that instant detector spell. | ||
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OrchidThief
Denmark2298 Posts
Warpgates should be slower than gateways because you have the added freedom of having your units spawn wherever the hell you want. Of course it would completely break balance, but would make for interesting strategic choices on your mix of warpgates and gateways. Just like with everything else in the game you can't just compare the three races mobile form of detection as they are used for detecting different units that can come out on the field at different times and with different usefulness. It's all about the context. | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On April 28 2011 04:01 kawaiiryuko wrote: 300 minerals = Bunker + 3 marines = ~ 21 DPS (shoots ground + air) 2 spine crawlers = ~ 18 DPS (shoots ground) 2 cannons = ~ 32 DPS (shoots ground + air + detect) Off of Liquipedia, Spine Crawlers have 13.5 DPS without bonus damage, 16.2 against armored units. So 2 spine crawlers = 27 DPS against light, 32.4 against armored. Also consider that Spine Crawlers have 2 armor on all 300 on their HP (and can be Transfused, although this is only of infrequent value), while Photon Cannons have only 1 armor on 150 of their HP. Furthermore, Spine Crawlers can be relocated when you expand, Bunkers can be salvaged for 75 minerals and those 3 Marines can attack the enemy. Photon Cannons.... well, they just sit there, hoping that the enemy is kind enough to move into their range. If I had to rank the various defensive structures, I'd say that Bunkers are the best for surviving heavy aggression while teching or expanding and Photon Cannons are the worst, while Photon Cannons are the best at preventing harassment, and Bunkers are the worst. Spine Crawlers fall in the middle in both regards. Of course, you can use the same set of Spine Crawlers for deterring an attack in the early game and then reposition them to deal with harass later in the game. Also, Photon Cannons are hands down the worst AA defensive structure in the game, being more expensive, less DPS, less health, and less mobile than Spine Crawlers, and more expensive, vastly less DPS, and only marginally more HP than Missile Turrets. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On April 28 2011 04:01 kawaiiryuko wrote: 300 minerals = Bunker + 3 marines = ~ 21 DPS (shoots ground + air) 2 spine crawlers = ~ 18 DPS (shoots ground) 2 cannons = ~ 32 DPS (shoots ground + air + detect) So, who is getting screwed? Missile Turrets? where did you pull those stats from? 300 minerals = 2 spinecrawlers = 600 hp, 2 armour, 27 dps (32 dps vs armoured), 7 range 300 minerals = 1 bunker + 4 marines = 400 hp, 1 armour, 27.9 dps, 6 range (shoots air) 300 mins = 2 cannons = 600 hp, 1 armour, 32 dps, 7 range (shoots air + detect) 300 mins = 3 missile turrets = 750 hp, 0 armour, 83 dps, 7 range (shoots air only) | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On April 28 2011 04:14 Joementum wrote: Let's not forget that Marines have stim. About 31.5 DPS with stim, so it's on par with cannons almost. This just really shows how bad Zerg static D really is O_O. I always thought it was great. I would also argue that Terrans have the best ability that gives them detection. Scan can save Terran armies quite easily if they spot some DTs or Burrowed roaches. Protoss/Zerg can't really do that instant detector spell. You have to remember that canon require a forge to build and cost more than the equivalent static defense. | ||
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Nightcrawler
52 Posts
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On April 26 2011 11:51 Mastermind wrote: Archons are finally massive. Thank you Blizzard. I am not happy at all with the pylon change. That effects WAY WAY more than just 4gate. That may really hurt fe builds and making walling a little tougher above the ramp. It also makes base planning a bigger problem for protoss players. Why do ghosts get a buff?? Templar will be even worse now. ugh. Fuck that. Seems like they want us to 2gate every game vs zerg now. Lame. Agreed. Pylons are the most in the way building that exists. Going to be extra trouble now. And ghosts win games with 2 good EMPs why buff??? | ||
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Scriptix
United States145 Posts
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SpaceGhost
United States61 Posts
On April 28 2011 04:01 kawaiiryuko wrote: 300 minerals = Bunker + 3 marines = ~ 21 DPS (shoots ground + air) 2 spine crawlers = ~ 18 DPS (shoots ground) 2 cannons = ~ 32 DPS (shoots ground + air + detect) So, who is getting screwed? I'd like to add that Spines can move around, meaning that you can build less of them as the game goes on and just relocate them to more strategically sound points. | ||
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somnabul
1 Post
I need 2buildings to produce archons, 1 building for Collossi. I need 2 HTs for an archon (100 min/300 gas) or 2 DTs (250 min/250 gas). 1 Colossus is 300 min/200gas. In case of the HT I 've got 2 near useless units until I research storm and I need 40 Blizzseconds until they have got enough energy to actually use the ability. They are also slow and die instantly if I actually plan to use them and not merge them to Archons asap. Imho: The reason for the Archon buff is not to make Archon an awesome unit but to desperately bring HT back into the game. I would somewhat agree with the changes but at the same time Blizzard randomly buffs the ghost which every competent T is already using against P. Archons, immortals and HTs are denied by a handful of ghosts so I don't know what Blizzard is trying to win here. The real question (before the late late game): Do I rather have Archons or Collossi? As much as I despise Collosi and although Coll. are a bit more expensive on minerals, I think the answer is clear. | ||
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Hoshizake
United States26 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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