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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 28 2011 01:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:04 hugman wrote:On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote: agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: -queen dies- So you'd have to make more Queens, it would totally be worth it if they could trample Force Fields. Besides, Phoenixes wouldn't be able to pick them up. Do you realize how many Queens you're talking about? As I just showed, Voids don't just beat massive Queens--they beat them by better than 2 to 1, so that it takes 3 queens to bring down a Void. And with Chrono, they build faster than Queens. Most early Stargate harassment features at least a few air units very early on (and unlike, say, Phoenix harass, you can't respond to Void pressure by just going to kill your enemy with lings or roaches or something--once Voids are out, you either kill them, defend until you can get sufficient anti-air, or you lose). A committed Stargate player can very easily get 3+ Voids at your base very early on, which is gonna take 8+ Queens to survive. And since there's no way to catch up if he has too many Voids because they build faster than Queens, and scouting Voids is impossible (that is, you can scout a Stargate, and maybe assume Voids...but you'll never be able to know exactly how many Voids he's making)...you're ONLY viable response when you see a Stargate is to start mass producing Queens. At that point, if he makes Voids, you can potentially survive and win, provided you've produced the ridiculous number of Queens required. But...what if he doesn't? What if he shows you a stargate, then, knowing your only hope to survive Voids is to do nothing but make Queens (which can't be used for offense)...he just takes an expansion or two? What then? You're macro is fucked cause you made way too many Queens, even with that many it will be a while before you can creep up the map enough to try to punish him, and in the meantime he's pulling further ahead on expansions. All because he made a Stargate, and you knew your only hope of surviving Voids if they came was to blindly pump Queens.
*edit: I didn't realize you were talking about voids vs queens if the queens were massive. They would only 25% more DPS though, right? queens also have armor so that factors in as well greatly to the void ray's low damage very fast attack. those numbers u coming up with seems exaggerated.
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Speaking of massive units, you would think a unit that costs the same as a capitol unit, has the same importance to the story line and is huge would be a massive unit.... If VRs were massive units then it would make corrupters passable against them and help a lot with the VR colossus play. Obviously this is just speculation, but it is something that I would like to see possibly in the future.
OT: I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this or clarified it but, the change to the pylon radius makes it so range 6 units will always be able to hit a pylon that is used for warping up units. By changing the radius to 6+ a zealot size, you effectively make it harder to warp up cliffs but not ruining the chance to do so. This change is actually really good, it takes away some parts of the game that felt like it was bs but kept in the chance to outplay your opponent using it.
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On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0
What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o.
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Oh god I cant wait patch. PvP is pure trash now.
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On April 28 2011 03:01 covetousrat wrote:
Oh god I cant wait patch. PvP is pure trash now.
I would like to think that only 4 gating in pvp would be pure trash. but I mean whatever
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On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o.
Hmm
Re max the quickest is more apt than reinforce the quickest.
Protoss is more of the race that reinforces the fastest. Zerg doesn't stream in units unless they are going for some all-in, in almost all mig/late game situations they tend to wait for a lot of units to finish before re-engaging, at least with units like Roaches/Infestors/Banelings/Lings/Broodlords and Ultralisks. Terran has the army that is the most capable of winning battles without reinforcements.
Have you ever tried to 4gate or 2base 6gate in any position other than close position meta/ST without a close proximity pylon? It just doesn't work. Protoss relies on swells of units to gain battle momentum, especially when trying to deliver any type of killing blow to other races.
Could you imagine Toss trying to finish any race off on a map like Tal'Darim without warpgates? Or do any type of one/two base all-in before 9mins? The race doesn't fair too well when units get down to a small army vs small army vs Zerg or Terran, it almost always relies on keeping the [death]ball rolling to be able to kill, battles tend to look more one sided than they are because of this, but one less round of units is usually the difference of a 40 supply army remaining and the entire thing dieing
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On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o.
Don't be bullshit man Toss can max out instantly b/c you suck and let him have 5k in bank with 30 gates. There's no way Protoss can re-max as fast as Zerg cheap shit units. DO you realize that even tier 1 units from protoss are more expensive than roaches, hydras ? Mutal is 100/100 but they are 10x better than phoenix in harassing.
Gosh, Zerg players are so ignorant with their point of view.
User was temp banned for this post.
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They need to fix the input limit reached bug  . So fucking annoying.
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On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o.
also terrans can reinforce in no time due to reactored buildings so its not an exclusive zerg feature anymore
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On April 28 2011 03:28 hitman133 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o. Don't be bullshit man Toss can max out instantly b/c you suck and let him have 5k in bank with 30 gates. There's no way Protoss can re-max as fast as Zerg cheap shit units. DO you realize that even tier 1 units from protoss are more expensive than roaches, hydras ? Mutal is 100/100 but they are 10x better than phoenix in harassing. Gosh, Zerg players are so ignorant with their point of view.
You should probably stop taking so many roids, the rage is a little scary.
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On April 28 2011 01:47 Traveler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:41 epoc wrote:
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit. It is bigger than the archon is haha. Anyways, I don't think it is going to happen either, because the warp-gate build time increase should give zergs enough time to get spine crawlers up to truly defend the rush well.
I don't think it bigger than an Archon, queen can go through some small choke like a zealot or sentry but archon can't
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On April 28 2011 03:21 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o. Hmm Re max the quickest is more apt than reinforce the quickest. Protoss is more of the race that reinforces the fastest. Zerg doesn't stream in units unless they are going for some all-in, in almost all mig/late game situations they tend to wait for a lot of units to finish before re-engaging, at least with units like Roaches/Infestors/Banelings/Lings/Broodlords and Ultralisks. Terran has the army that is the most capable of winning battles without reinforcements. Have you ever tried to 4gate or 2base 6gate in any position other than close position meta/ST without a close proximity pylon? It just doesn't work. Protoss relies on swells of units to gain battle momentum, especially when trying to deliver any type of killing blow to other races. Could you imagine Toss trying to finish any race off on a map like Tal'Darim without warpgates? Or do any type of one/two base all-in before 9mins? The race doesn't fair too well when units get down to a small army vs small army vs Zerg or Terran, it almost always relies on keeping the [death]ball rolling to be able to kill, battles tend to look more one sided than they are because of this, but one less round of units is usually the difference of a 40 supply army remaining and the entire thing dieing
I don't think you realize how many resources a toss has to spend to re-enforce in any giant way. 10 warpgates is no small investment, and shame on the person who allows them to be built anyways.
Also WTF... zerg is the best at instant armies. What game are you playing?
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On April 28 2011 03:30 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o. also terrans can reinforce in no time due to reactored buildings so its not an exclusive zerg feature anymore
There's no difference between a reactored rax and 2 raxes. Reactors changed absolutely nothing in this regard.
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On April 28 2011 03:32 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:21 Dommk wrote:On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o. Hmm Re max the quickest is more apt than reinforce the quickest. Protoss is more of the race that reinforces the fastest. Zerg doesn't stream in units unless they are going for some all-in, in almost all mig/late game situations they tend to wait for a lot of units to finish before re-engaging, at least with units like Roaches/Infestors/Banelings/Lings/Broodlords and Ultralisks. Terran has the army that is the most capable of winning battles without reinforcements. Have you ever tried to 4gate or 2base 6gate in any position other than close position meta/ST without a close proximity pylon? It just doesn't work. Protoss relies on swells of units to gain battle momentum, especially when trying to deliver any type of killing blow to other races. Could you imagine Toss trying to finish any race off on a map like Tal'Darim without warpgates? Or do any type of one/two base all-in before 9mins? The race doesn't fair too well when units get down to a small army vs small army vs Zerg or Terran, it almost always relies on keeping the [death]ball rolling to be able to kill, battles tend to look more one sided than they are because of this, but one less round of units is usually the difference of a 40 supply army remaining and the entire thing dieing I don't think you realize how many resources a toss has to spend to re-enforce in any giant way. 10 warpgates is no small investment, and shame on the person who allows them to be built anyways. Also WTF... zerg is the best at instant armies. What game are you playing?
Lets se we forget that zerg could harass protoss etc and delay his stuff/kill him. But games do go in a lategame where protoss have 3 > bases too. When that happens he does pile up a big amounts of money, same as zerg.
So when the battle happens protoss can instantly reinforce. At that time zerg starts building roaches but about when the roaches pop out (27s) later, protoss already can have another set of warp-ins. So even though zerg can reinforce in big numbers at once, protoss can have two sets of warp-ins in that time. Then looking the fact that in 200/200 armies protoss will have a lot more units left.
I'm not even talking about balance, I couldn't care less, I like playing protoss AND zerg but zerg needs to wait 27s for additional roaches when protoss can have them as soon as he has free supply.
We have seen in a lot of progames where toss just defends to 200/200 and has like 3 bases and just slams 20 gateways so he can reinforce instantly when they clash.
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maybe zerg shouldn't wait until Protoss is 200/200
that whole argument is quite silly.
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On April 26 2011 12:14 meep wrote:
I honestly don't know what Blizzard is thinking about salvage. They shouldn't be salvageable in the first place IMO. Also, the pylon power range change is pretty random
Really? Think about the defensive structures for Toss and Zerg that don't require food.
Toss: Photon cannons
Zerg: Spine/Spore Crawlers
Terran: Missile Turret and Planetary Fortress
So the only early game Terran defensive structure that can shoot ground requires 1-4 food to actually be useful whereas Zerg and Toss get their structures completely for free. Zerg and Toss don't have to keep a small squad to deter small drops/back stabs. Terrans are the supposedly the "turtling" race, but our best "defense" all require food (siege tanks/bunkers). You don't know how many times I would have loved to have something like a photon cannon or spine crawler in my mineral line to stop the ground harass killing my workers because they're outside the range of my planetary.
As a Terran player, I don't mind the new 75% salvage rate, but to have none at all would be preposterous given the added costs of making bunkers actually useable as a defensive structure.
And actually, I think bunkers could use a little bit of a buff. Hear me out; Terrans arguably have the worst permanent detection solution (Toss: T2 Observer Zerg: T2 Overseer Terran: T3 Raven). The Raven not only takes the longest to get to, but also has the longest build time and cost.
Yes, we have scans, but they are temporary and scans cut into our economic mechanic whereas Toss and Zerg can easily get detection without sacrificing economic mechanics. Are Mules overpowered? Maybe, but there other threads on that. I would just like to have another option for detection and one way would be to make the bunker a detector after an engineering bay has been built. That or sensor towers reveal the location (but still does not attack vision) of cloaked units so we at least know the optimal location to put our scans.
And as for the pylon change, as others have said, the point is to make back door warping more difficult. On some maps, it is impossible to kill the pylon without either high tech or leaving your base undefended/weakened to kill the backdoor pylon. This is a welcome and needed change.
One other completely random change that would be awesome is if a detector could tell if a transport was loaded with units or not. I forget which TSL3 game it was (it was a PvZ), the Zerg faked a mass overlord drop which forced the Toss out of position. I'm all for deceptive play, but there has got to be some way that the opposing player can counter it.
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There's no difference between a reactored rax and 2 raxes.
You mean, besides the fact that Barracks+Reactor costs less than 2 Barracks?
If you have 75 unit producing structures, any race can re-max quickly given the money to do so. That's just how the game works. The question is how much it costs to get that many unit-producing structures. The Zerg are cheapest in this regard, as they can stockpile lots of larva at hatcheries when they're maxed.
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On April 28 2011 03:39 Piski wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:32 Rob28 wrote:On April 28 2011 03:21 Dommk wrote:On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o. Hmm Re max the quickest is more apt than reinforce the quickest. Protoss is more of the race that reinforces the fastest. Zerg doesn't stream in units unless they are going for some all-in, in almost all mig/late game situations they tend to wait for a lot of units to finish before re-engaging, at least with units like Roaches/Infestors/Banelings/Lings/Broodlords and Ultralisks. Terran has the army that is the most capable of winning battles without reinforcements. Have you ever tried to 4gate or 2base 6gate in any position other than close position meta/ST without a close proximity pylon? It just doesn't work. Protoss relies on swells of units to gain battle momentum, especially when trying to deliver any type of killing blow to other races. Could you imagine Toss trying to finish any race off on a map like Tal'Darim without warpgates? Or do any type of one/two base all-in before 9mins? The race doesn't fair too well when units get down to a small army vs small army vs Zerg or Terran, it almost always relies on keeping the [death]ball rolling to be able to kill, battles tend to look more one sided than they are because of this, but one less round of units is usually the difference of a 40 supply army remaining and the entire thing dieing I don't think you realize how many resources a toss has to spend to re-enforce in any giant way. 10 warpgates is no small investment, and shame on the person who allows them to be built anyways. Also WTF... zerg is the best at instant armies. What game are you playing? Lets se we forget that zerg could harass protoss etc and delay his stuff/kill him. But games do go in a lategame where protoss have 3 > bases too. When that happens he does pile up a big amounts of money, same as zerg. So when the battle happens protoss can instantly reinforce. At that time zerg starts building roaches but about when the roaches pop out (27s) later, protoss already can have another set of warp-ins. So even though zerg can reinforce in big numbers at once, protoss can have two sets of warp-ins in that time. Then looking the fact that in 200/200 armies protoss will have a lot more units left. I'm not even talking about balance, I couldn't care less, I like playing protoss AND zerg but zerg needs to wait 27s for additional roaches when protoss can have them as soon as he has free supply. We have seen in a lot of progames where toss just defends to 200/200 and has like 3 bases and just slams 20 gateways so he can reinforce instantly when they clash.
its part of the game. might as well ask to remove warpgate, because thats what sounds like.
i dont think protoss being able to remake units with 30wg is an issue, its same for zerg...he/she can make 10 hatches and make 200 lings in an instant, throw that way and mass something else.
every race is unique and each has their strength and weakness, no need split hairs about it.
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I just noticed, the delay in 4Gates makes it so it's actually possible to do a laxer (sp?) 3GateRobo.
God, I'm slow.
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On April 28 2011 03:32 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:21 Dommk wrote:On April 28 2011 03:00 Joementum wrote:On April 28 2011 01:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0 What they really should have done is never introduced Warp Gates, in its current form, at all. I'm not saying Toss is overpowered, but WG really doesn't fit in well with SC2. Zerg is supposed to be the swarming race that can reinforce the quickest, but it's not. That's Protoss with their Warp Gate tech now. The instant reinforcement factor of an already strong army really doesn't help the game at all either. If only they made WGs only usable with Warp Prisms when the game first came out. I wonder how that would have worked out O_o. Hmm Re max the quickest is more apt than reinforce the quickest. Protoss is more of the race that reinforces the fastest. Zerg doesn't stream in units unless they are going for some all-in, in almost all mig/late game situations they tend to wait for a lot of units to finish before re-engaging, at least with units like Roaches/Infestors/Banelings/Lings/Broodlords and Ultralisks. Terran has the army that is the most capable of winning battles without reinforcements. Have you ever tried to 4gate or 2base 6gate in any position other than close position meta/ST without a close proximity pylon? It just doesn't work. Protoss relies on swells of units to gain battle momentum, especially when trying to deliver any type of killing blow to other races. Could you imagine Toss trying to finish any race off on a map like Tal'Darim without warpgates? Or do any type of one/two base all-in before 9mins? The race doesn't fair too well when units get down to a small army vs small army vs Zerg or Terran, it almost always relies on keeping the [death]ball rolling to be able to kill, battles tend to look more one sided than they are because of this, but one less round of units is usually the difference of a 40 supply army remaining and the entire thing dieing I don't think you realize how many resources a toss has to spend to re-enforce in any giant way. 10 warpgates is no small investment, and shame on the person who allows them to be built anyways. Also WTF... zerg is the best at instant armies. What game are you playing?
Er, quoted the wrong guy?
Anyway, not really bothered about Protoss being able to reinforce with 30 gateways in an end game situation, last year it was considered that if Zerg got to late game then it was game over for any race as they had the resources to constantly remax. ATM, it isn't all figured out yet, right now it is just the ebb and flow of how people perceive the late game.
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EPT
