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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 28 2011 00:41 crackcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:13 Dommk wrote:
Why? Why in the world are people so determined to try and get Gateways to be used?
It will only make Protoss MORE turtle-oriented, what possible good would you do by making Gateways "Viable"?
If anything, more Warpgate usage needs to be encourage, more incentive needs to be given for Protoss to get out of their base and aggressive, it creates much more entertaining games than watching a Toss sit in his base with a bunch of Gateways building up a Deathball NO ! Im not saying we should GO BACK TO GATEWAYS, they should be used throughout the game ! NO BUILDING OR TECH STRUCTURE BECOMES TRUELY OBSOLETE, lings/blings , marines, zealots are used even in late game ! Im saying that a choice between the 2 and a unique purpose for each ( WG and GW ) would
Slow lings become obsolete once you research speed. Slow zealots become obsolete once you research charge. Warpgate to me isn't an upgrade that gives you an extra option (like storm or neural parasite) but one that just makes your stuff better. It would make more sense if you couldn't even build gateways after warpgate research is done, instead you built warpgate directly costing 10 more minerals and 10s longer to build than a gateway.
tl:dr Warpgate tech isn't an extra ability, it's an upgrade.
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On April 28 2011 00:41 crackcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:13 Dommk wrote:
Why? Why in the world are people so determined to try and get Gateways to be used?
It will only make Protoss MORE turtle-oriented, what possible good would you do by making Gateways "Viable"?
If anything, more Warpgate usage needs to be encourage, more incentive needs to be given for Protoss to get out of their base and aggressive, it creates much more entertaining games than watching a Toss sit in his base with a bunch of Gateways building up a Deathball NO ! Im not saying we should GO BACK TO GATEWAYS, they should be used throughout the game ! NO BUILDING OR TECH STRUCTURE BECOMES TRUELY OBSOLETE, lings/blings , marines, zealots are used even in late game ! Im saying that a choice between the 2 and a unique purpose for each ( WG and GW ) would 1. give more depth to the game - make the protoss less lazy ( whats that i didnt make an army and got greedy teching up straight to collosi ... no problem insta warp some sentries and block of ramp till colosi gets here, or what I went heavy zealot but zerg scouted and countered me with mutas .... no problem insta warp a bunch of stalkers take care of that ... what lings streaming for my base ... no problem insta warp a zealot at choke ... Thats ok by me im not crying imba imba, but i think that instead of just delaying the warpgate etc why not pay ( a little more ) for that priviledge ! 2. stop 4 gates and the likes ( Since we all know thats the ONLY reason for the protoss part of this patch ) as someone going 4Wgate can be easily stopped with a 3 gate, without having insane micro skills ! I just think since youre all sooo annoyed how boring PvP is and how '' Toss turtles till he gets 200/200 '' I think that if theres a difference between the two people will get more creative as scouting and harrasment will become VITAL for toss, other then the 1 obs flying around the map taking naked pictures of the kerrigan lol
On top of this being painful to read, half of what you said is blatantly wrong and the other half stupid...it looks like the rantings of some bronze-diamond league player.
Blizzard were pretty clear that they wanted Warpgates to replace Gateways, in beta the research time was something absurdly quick like 40seconds. Humoring this topic is just engaging in a debate of "what ifs", a waste of time.
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On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote + agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: -queen dies-
So you'd have to make more Queens, it would totally be worth it if they could trample Force Fields. Besides, Phoenixes wouldn't be able to pick them up.
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On April 28 2011 00:56 awesomoecalypse wrote:This is a lie. Command Centers become obsolete as soon as you can upgrade them to Orbitals. Why is that? Is it because Orbitals are core to terran macro, and the game is in fact balanced around Terran being able to MULE...but, because MULEing would be broken too early in the game, Blizzard decided to delay Terran getting an OC by making it an upgrade? Why, that thought process sounds awfully familiar when I think of Protoss and gateways/warp gates....
I use them to float to my 3rd to make PF ... couldnt survive without them !
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On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote + agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: Voids have 150 health and 100 shields, or 250 health for the purposes of this discussion. Their attack deals 10 vs. armored every .6 seconds uncharged, and 16 vs. armored charged, also every .6 seconds. The massive bonus increases every attack by 20%. It takes 13 attacks, or 7.2 seconds, to charge a Void Ray. Queens have 175 health, 1 armor, and deal 9 damage vs. air, once per second. Queens have slightly longer range, but are limited to creep, whereas Voids can fly and once they start attacking their range is longer. In other words, regardless of their respective numbers, in any Void vs. Queen early game engagement, they will be able to focus fire each other just as easily. In other words, I'm considering range/mobility a non factor here, because they generally are in this type of fight. So, if Queens were massive, in the first 7.2 seconds before the Void gets charged, the Queen will deal 7 attacks of 9 damage, or 63 damage to the Void. The Void, in turn, will hit the Queen 13 times for 11 damage each (10 damage, + 2 for the massive bonus, -1 for the Queen armor). Thats 110 damage. Then the Void gets charged, and starts dealing 18.2 damage per shot ((16 + (.2 * 16)) - 1 for armor). It will get it one "free" shot before the Queen's next shot, so at roughly the 8 second mark, the Queen will have dealt the Void 72 damage, and the Void will have dealt the Queen 138 damage. At that point, the Queen has only 37 health left (actually, it has a few more due to regen, but not enough to allow it to take an extra hit from the Void so its mathematically irrelevant). Taking 18 damage a shot, once every ,.6 seconds, it can survive for 3 more shots once the Void gets charged, which takes the total engagement up to 9 seconds...enough for the Queen to get off 1 more shot for an additional 9 damage. In other words, in total, against a massive Queen a Void will take 81 damage, and kill the Queen in 9 seconds. Okay, so what about one Void vs. 2 Queens? Well, in that 9 seconds, the Void would have instead taken 162 damage, leaving it with 88 health left once the first Queen goes down--which would be enough to kill the extra Queen, even if it wasn't already charged. But it is already charged, which means it deals 18.2 damage every .6 seconds, or over 30 dps...enough to kill the Queen in under 6 seconds. So the Void takes 5 more shots for 45 damage, killing 2 Queens with over 40 health left over. Void Rays would own massive Queens. Own them so hard it isn't even funny. Yes, they're more expensive, but with Chrono they actually build faster than Queens--so unless Zerg just feel like mass-producing Queens blind on the off chance their opponents go Void, they really, really don't want Queens to be massive.
Except that queens are not armored and making them massive would still not make them armored. They would take 1.2 * 6 -1 = 6.2 damage per shot (every .6 seconds) until the VR is charged. 1v1 a Void Ray already kills a queen. 2 queens are required to kill a void ray and do so adequately. Making queens massive would tilt the balance slightly, but 2 queens would still kill a VR:
2 queens do 18 dps vs. a void ray. 1 void ray does 10.3 dps for the first 7.2 seconds and 14.3 dps afterwards. A void ray has (shields + hp) 250 health and thus takes 250/18 = 13.9 seconds to die to 2 queens. In that time it deals 7.2*10.3 + 6.7*14.3 = 170 damage. In other words, both queens survive, one at full health and one with a sliver of health. If one queen arrives late (as is normally the case), then a transfuse is required, but the balance is in no way as far skewed as you imply. However, this is useless theorycrafting, as the change has not been made.
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Sorry for my ignorance but in what way will the archon been massive change the PVP game? (Honest question)
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On April 28 2011 01:04 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote: agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: -queen dies- So you'd have to make more Queens, it would totally be worth it if they could trample Force Fields. Besides, Phoenixes wouldn't be able to pick them up.
maybe slightly lower queen build time?
or give them more air attack or perhaps more hp..
or just remove voids vs massive tag
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On April 28 2011 01:06 nichan wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but in what way will the archon been massive change the PVP game? (Honest question)
Stomp force fields/Can't be lifted by phoenixes basically. That's the important part at least
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On April 28 2011 01:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:41 crackcc wrote:On April 28 2011 00:13 Dommk wrote:
Why? Why in the world are people so determined to try and get Gateways to be used?
It will only make Protoss MORE turtle-oriented, what possible good would you do by making Gateways "Viable"?
If anything, more Warpgate usage needs to be encourage, more incentive needs to be given for Protoss to get out of their base and aggressive, it creates much more entertaining games than watching a Toss sit in his base with a bunch of Gateways building up a Deathball NO ! Im not saying we should GO BACK TO GATEWAYS, they should be used throughout the game ! NO BUILDING OR TECH STRUCTURE BECOMES TRUELY OBSOLETE, lings/blings , marines, zealots are used even in late game ! Im saying that a choice between the 2 and a unique purpose for each ( WG and GW ) would 1. give more depth to the game - make the protoss less lazy ( whats that i didnt make an army and got greedy teching up straight to collosi ... no problem insta warp some sentries and block of ramp till colosi gets here, or what I went heavy zealot but zerg scouted and countered me with mutas .... no problem insta warp a bunch of stalkers take care of that ... what lings streaming for my base ... no problem insta warp a zealot at choke ... Thats ok by me im not crying imba imba, but i think that instead of just delaying the warpgate etc why not pay ( a little more ) for that priviledge ! 2. stop 4 gates and the likes ( Since we all know thats the ONLY reason for the protoss part of this patch ) as someone going 4Wgate can be easily stopped with a 3 gate, without having insane micro skills ! I just think since youre all sooo annoyed how boring PvP is and how '' Toss turtles till he gets 200/200 '' I think that if theres a difference between the two people will get more creative as scouting and harrasment will become VITAL for toss, other then the 1 obs flying around the map taking naked pictures of the kerrigan lol On top of this being painful to read, half of what you said is blatantly wrong and the other half stupid...it looks like the rantings of some bronze-diamond league player. Blizzard were pretty clear that they wanted Warpgates to replace Gateways, in beta the research time was something absurdly quick like 40seconds. Humoring this topic is just engaging in a debate of "what ifs", a waste of time. Sure shit all over diamond and below players ... yes your soo much better then anyone ... EVERYONE in this thread was giving their opninons on what the patch may/may not do .. will 2 gate proxy replace 4gate blah blah ... so i was just pitching in ... but im not a master hence I KNOW NOTHING !!! RIGHT ???
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On April 28 2011 01:06 nichan wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but in what way will the archon been massive change the PVP game? (Honest question)
Prior to this change, the only Protoss unit that could trample FFs was the colossus. This managed to further pigeonhole "lategame" PvP into colossus wars, otherwise their army would get trapped and they'd either need to retreat with blink or lose their entire army. This helps to make templar tech slightly more viable.
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On April 28 2011 00:46 crackcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:43 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 28 2011 00:41 crackcc wrote:On April 28 2011 00:13 Dommk wrote:
Why? Why in the world are people so determined to try and get Gateways to be used?
It will only make Protoss MORE turtle-oriented, what possible good would you do by making Gateways "Viable"?
If anything, more Warpgate usage needs to be encourage, more incentive needs to be given for Protoss to get out of their base and aggressive, it creates much more entertaining games than watching a Toss sit in his base with a bunch of Gateways building up a Deathball NO ! Im not saying they should keep gateways and they should be used throughout the game im saying that a choice between the 2 and a unique purpose for each ( WG and GW ) would 1. give more depth to the game - make the protoss less lazy ( whats that i didnt make an army and got greedy teching up straight to collosi ... no problem insta warp some sentries and block of ramp till colosi gets here, or what I went heavy zealot but zerg scouted and countered me with mutas .... no problem insta warp a bunch of stalkers take care of that ... what lings streaming for my base ... no problem insta warp a zealot at choke ... Thats ok by me im not crying imba imba, but i think that instead of just delaying the warpgate etc why not pay ( a little more ) for that priviledge ! 2. stop 4 gates and the likes ( Since we all know thats the ONLY reason for the protoss part of this patch ) as someone going 4Wgate can be easily stopped with a 3 gate, without having insane micro skills ! I just think since youre all sooo annoyed how boring PvP is and how '' Toss turtles till he gets 200/200 '' I think that if theres a difference between the two people will get more creative as scouting and harrasment will become VITAL for toss, other then the 1 obs flying around the map taking naked pictures of the kerrigan lol Scouting and harassment are already VITAL for toss, thank you. Not as much as for ZERG or even TERRAN ... if you show up with a bunch of stalkers and terran only has marines then hes dead he will be kited to his death and its not a few mauders streaming out 1 by 1 that will change anything, not like toss if hes caught with only zealots and hellions do a runby .. insta stalker warp or sentry block :D Dont start saying OF COURSE SCOUTING IS IMPORTANT BLAH BLAH ... I never said it wsasent .. just not as vital to toss early game as it is T and Z
I don't think that claim is particularly valid..
PvT- gas? 2gas? gas before rax?, racks timing (was it on 12? or suspiciously late?
gas- 4:xx stalker poke just marines? a bunker?
no gas - stalker at tower- scvs pulled? if you don't start kiting it from their base you lose to some of these builds; no push, stalker pressure at expo- how many bunkers? 5 racks or tank transition?
2gas - 1gate robo most likely for 6:xx observer - dual port? thor? marine tank banshee all in?
PvZ - 2:0x hatch 1st? 10 probe check for ovie on close air maps, gas first? no pylon block. pool first? block hatch asap. hatch first and you scouted last on map with no close air for ovie check (on 9 scout you can scout close ground then cross spawn by the time hatch first would be going down)? gate-gas-core-nexus if you've got the balls to do it. How many drones on gas? is he researching speed? he's researching speed now does he still have drones on gas? how many? hide the probe if possible, but you probably won't get gas timings, but you can find in a minute or 2- how many drones at the natural? did he juke me and cancel natural? can I sneak in and see something significant at 5:xx? (roach warren?)
7-9minutes (phoenix hallucination, if you have it - greedy 3rd? how many drones at 3rd? hydra den? 1 evo? 2 evo? 0 evo? spire? pure roach? ling roach? no roach?
Everything here is a very specific cue for a response from the protoss. I know you like to think it's just s click s click e click f click f click but it isn't
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On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote + agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: Voids have 150 health and 100 shields, or 250 health for the purposes of this discussion. Their attack deals 10 vs. armored every .6 seconds uncharged, and 16 vs. armored charged, also every .6 seconds. The massive bonus increases every attack by 20%. It takes 13 attacks, or 7.2 seconds, to charge a Void Ray. Queens have 175 health, 1 armor, and deal 9 damage vs. air, once per second. Queens have slightly longer range, but are limited to creep, whereas Voids can fly and once they start attacking their range is longer. In other words, regardless of their respective numbers, in any Void vs. Queen early game engagement, they will be able to focus fire each other just as easily. In other words, I'm considering range/mobility a non factor here, because they generally are in this type of fight. So, if Queens were massive, in the first 7.2 seconds before the Void gets charged, the Queen will deal 7 attacks of 9 damage, or 63 damage to the Void. The Void, in turn, will hit the Queen 13 times for 11 damage each (10 damage, + 2 for the massive bonus, -1 for the Queen armor). Thats 110 damage. Then the Void gets charged, and starts dealing 18.2 damage per shot ((16 + (.2 * 16)) - 1 for armor). It will get it one "free" shot before the Queen's next shot, so at roughly the 8 second mark, the Queen will have dealt the Void 72 damage, and the Void will have dealt the Queen 138 damage. At that point, the Queen has only 37 health left (actually, it has a few more due to regen, but not enough to allow it to take an extra hit from the Void so its mathematically irrelevant). Taking 18 damage a shot, once every ,.6 seconds, it can survive for 3 more shots once the Void gets charged, which takes the total engagement up to 9 seconds...enough for the Queen to get off 1 more shot for an additional 9 damage. In other words, in total, against a massive Queen a Void will take 81 damage, and kill the Queen in 9 seconds. Okay, so what about one Void vs. 2 Queens? Well, in that 9 seconds, the Void would have instead taken 162 damage, leaving it with 88 health left once the first Queen goes down--which would be enough to kill the extra Queen, even if it wasn't already charged. But it is already charged, which means it deals 18.2 damage every .6 seconds, or over 30 dps...enough to kill the Queen in under 6 seconds. So the Void takes 5 more shots for 45 damage, killing 2 Queens with over 40 health left over. Void Rays would own massive Queens. Own them so hard it isn't even funny. Yes, they're more expensive, but with Chrono they actually build faster than Queens--so unless Zerg just feel like mass-producing Queens blind on the off chance their opponents go Void, they really, really don't want Queens to be massive.
All your math and logic here is perfect, except for the fact that queens aren't armored...
Any zerg would trade 20% more damage on a void ray doing 6 damage and then 8 damage to a queen (before), for the inability to be picked up by pheonix.
Anyways, it would really make it easier for zerg early game to defeat a sentry heavy 4-gate or 6- gate, since you could just move a queen to your ramp when you see it coming and boom, you now no longer have half your spawning army stuck in your main.
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On April 28 2011 01:04 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote: agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: -queen dies- So you'd have to make more Queens, it would totally be worth it if they could trample Force Fields. Besides, Phoenixes wouldn't be able to pick them up.
Do you realize how many Queens you're talking about? As I just showed, Voids don't just beat massive Queens--they beat them by better than 2 to 1, so that it takes 3 queens to bring down a Void. And with Chrono, they build faster than Queens. Most early Stargate harassment features at least a few air units very early on (and unlike, say, Phoenix harass, you can't respond to Void pressure by just going to kill your enemy with lings or roaches or something--once Voids are out, you either kill them, defend until you can get sufficient anti-air, or you lose). A committed Stargate player can very easily get 3+ Voids at your base very early on, which is gonna take 8+ Queens to survive. And since there's no way to catch up if he has too many Voids because they build faster than Queens, and scouting Voids is impossible (that is, you can scout a Stargate, and maybe assume Voids...but you'll never be able to know exactly how many Voids he's making)...you're ONLY viable response when you see a Stargate is to start mass producing Queens.
At that point, if he makes Voids, you can potentially survive and win, provided you've produced the ridiculous number of Queens required.
But...what if he doesn't? What if he shows you a stargate, then, knowing your only hope to survive Voids is to do nothing but make Queens (which can't be used for offense)...he just takes an expansion or two? What then? You're macro is fucked cause you made way too many Queens, even with that many it will be a while before you can creep up the map enough to try to punish him, and in the meantime he's pulling further ahead on expansions. All because he made a Stargate, and you knew your only hope of surviving Voids if they came was to blindly pump Queens.
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On April 28 2011 00:41 crackcc wrote:
NO ! Im not saying we should GO BACK TO GATEWAYS, they should be used throughout the game ! NO BUILDING OR TECH STRUCTURE BECOMES TRUELY OBSOLETE, lings/blings , marines, zealots are used even in late game ! Im saying that a choice between the 2 and a unique purpose for each ( WG and GW ) would
Its an interesting thought, but I feel like warpgates should be treated like an upgrade. Like zergling speed or marine stim. You're probably going down this train of thought because protoss still has to morph each gateway individually as oppossed to automatically. Perhaps there was one time when Blizzard was experimenting with your idea. In the end blizzard wanted warpgates have a clear advantage over gateways. It makes things simpler and less finicky.
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On April 28 2011 01:06 nichan wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but in what way will the archon been massive change the PVP game? (Honest question)
Prior to this patch if you opened blink it was kind of a dead end in tech; you could go dt at that point but safe robo openers would shut it down; you could transition around to robo but you'd be behind if they opened robo in terms of gas invested. Or, you could go charge lots. However, if your opponent had 2 sentries, they could pretty much negate your zealots by coating their stalker/colo ball with forcefields so that the zealots were pretty much nullified. With the archon buff, if you have 1 or 2 archons they will just bust through all the forcefields since they are pretty large and will be close to the front since they are a relatively fast unit (strange, I know; used to seeing them slowed by concussive ^^)
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im sorry but queens arent massive and wont become massive in this patch so why this huge theorycrafting?
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Seems like DT openings will now be a direct counter to PvP air builds: harass with DTs and force detection, then use Archons to defend against Phoenix harass.
DT openings also got better in PvT as Archons can be used to defend a counter all-in from Terran in response to DTs and allow an easy transition to push against the bio army of a Terran crippled by DT harass.
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On April 28 2011 01:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:04 hugman wrote:On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote: agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: -queen dies- So you'd have to make more Queens, it would totally be worth it if they could trample Force Fields. Besides, Phoenixes wouldn't be able to pick them up. Do you realize how many Queens you're talking about? As I just showed, Voids don't just beat massive Queens--they beat them by better than 2 to 1, so that it takes 3 queens to bring down a Void. And with Chrono, they build faster than Queens. Most early Stargate harassment features at least a few air units very early on (and unlike, say, Phoenix harass, you can't respond to Void pressure by just going to kill your enemy with lings or roaches or something--once Voids are out, you either kill them, defend until you can get sufficient anti-air, or you lose). A committed Stargate player can very easily get 3+ Voids at your base very early on, which is gonna take 8+ Queens to survive. And since there's no way to catch up if he has too many Voids because they build faster than Queens, and scouting Voids is impossible (that is, you can scout a Stargate, and maybe assume Voids...but you'll never be able to know exactly how many Voids he's making)...you're ONLY viable response when you see a Stargate is to start mass producing Queens. At that point, if he makes Voids, you can potentially survive and win, provided you've produced the ridiculous number of Queens required. But...what if he doesn't? What if he shows you a stargate, then, knowing your only hope to survive Voids is to do nothing but make Queens (which can't be used for offense)...he just takes an expansion or two? What then? You're macro is fucked cause you made way too many Queens, even with that many it will be a while before you can creep up the map enough to try to punish him, and in the meantime he's pulling further ahead on expansions. All because he made a Stargate, and you knew your only hope of surviving Voids if they came was to blindly pump Queens.
Did you even read the posts that disprove ALL your math on the simple fact that queens are NOT armored? 2 queens would still kill a void ray, albeit not quite as easily as they do now. In fact, being zerg, I would be considerably LESS scared of stargates than I am now, because phoenixes would be unable to lift off queens... and thus zerg ground to air would get a considerable buff vs. toss.
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On April 28 2011 01:12 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:46 crackcc wrote:On April 28 2011 00:43 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 28 2011 00:41 crackcc wrote:On April 28 2011 00:13 Dommk wrote:
Why? Why in the world are people so determined to try and get Gateways to be used?
It will only make Protoss MORE turtle-oriented, what possible good would you do by making Gateways "Viable"?
If anything, more Warpgate usage needs to be encourage, more incentive needs to be given for Protoss to get out of their base and aggressive, it creates much more entertaining games than watching a Toss sit in his base with a bunch of Gateways building up a Deathball NO ! Im not saying they should keep gateways and they should be used throughout the game im saying that a choice between the 2 and a unique purpose for each ( WG and GW ) would 1. give more depth to the game - make the protoss less lazy ( whats that i didnt make an army and got greedy teching up straight to collosi ... no problem insta warp some sentries and block of ramp till colosi gets here, or what I went heavy zealot but zerg scouted and countered me with mutas .... no problem insta warp a bunch of stalkers take care of that ... what lings streaming for my base ... no problem insta warp a zealot at choke ... Thats ok by me im not crying imba imba, but i think that instead of just delaying the warpgate etc why not pay ( a little more ) for that priviledge ! 2. stop 4 gates and the likes ( Since we all know thats the ONLY reason for the protoss part of this patch ) as someone going 4Wgate can be easily stopped with a 3 gate, without having insane micro skills ! I just think since youre all sooo annoyed how boring PvP is and how '' Toss turtles till he gets 200/200 '' I think that if theres a difference between the two people will get more creative as scouting and harrasment will become VITAL for toss, other then the 1 obs flying around the map taking naked pictures of the kerrigan lol Scouting and harassment are already VITAL for toss, thank you. Not as much as for ZERG or even TERRAN ... if you show up with a bunch of stalkers and terran only has marines then hes dead he will be kited to his death and its not a few mauders streaming out 1 by 1 that will change anything, not like toss if hes caught with only zealots and hellions do a runby .. insta stalker warp or sentry block :D Dont start saying OF COURSE SCOUTING IS IMPORTANT BLAH BLAH ... I never said it wsasent .. just not as vital to toss early game as it is T and Z I don't think that claim is particularly valid.. PvT- gas? 2gas? gas before rax?, racks timing (was it on 12? or suspiciously late? gas- 4:xx stalker poke just marines? a bunker? no gas - stalker at tower- scvs pulled? if you don't start kiting it from their base you lose to some of these builds; no push, stalker pressure at expo- how many bunkers? 5 racks or tank transition? 2gas - 1gate robo most likely for 6:xx observer - dual port? thor? marine tank banshee all in? PvZ - 2:0x hatch 1st? 10 probe check for ovie on close air maps, gas first? no pylon block. pool first? block hatch asap. hatch first and you scouted last on map with no close air for ovie check (on 9 scout you can scout close ground then cross spawn by the time hatch first would be going down)? gate-gas-core-nexus if you've got the balls to do it. How many drones on gas? is he researching speed? he's researching speed now does he still have drones on gas? how many? hide the probe if possible, but you probably won't get gas timings, but you can find in a minute or 2- how many drones at the natural? did he juke me and cancel natural? can I sneak in and see something significant at 5:xx? (roach warren?) 7-9minutes (phoenix hallucination, if you have it - greedy 3rd? how many drones at 3rd? hydra den? 1 evo? 2 evo? 0 evo? spire? pure roach? ling roach? no roach? Everything here is a very specific cue for a response from the protoss. I know you like to think it's just s click s click e click f click f click but it isn't No you are right, you can read the game better then me i still dont have that kind of experiance but i get along ok when i use toss .. PvZ 1 - scout pos if ovie doesnt give close air pos away, check for 6-pool, .. finish off allmost walling ... dont scout ... dont scout ... dont scout ... dont scout ... < 6 mins boom im gettin attacked !!! lings/ blings ? insta forcefield, block off their retreat too kill them off with 1 maybe 2 instawarp stalkers ! Roaches ? insta forefield twice maybe 3 times so i can get enough stalkers to deal with them then cut them off with another FF and deal with 3 or so at a time ... muta rush ??? insta warp stalkers in mineral line !!! - Then 6-7 > mins get hallucinate and / or obs and I have total knowledge of my opponents comp/tech/bases etc 
I know I should strive to play better and read my oppoent better like you have learnt to but when i play toss I can still win without as much scouting as when i play T or Z thats all im saying ... but i guess at your level master / grandmaster level I would get soooo punished for my lack of scouting !
Better stop being lazy ! btw im gonna use your analysis thx !
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On April 28 2011 01:25 deth2munkies wrote:
Seems like DT openings will now be a direct counter to PvP air builds: harass with DTs and force detection, then use Archons to defend against Phoenix harass.
DT openings also got better in PvT as Archons can be used to defend a counter all-in from Terran in response to DTs and allow an easy transition to push against the bio army of a Terran crippled by DT harass.
Archons aren't exactly that great at defending Phoenix harass, but great on the offensive. No one exactly looks to try "pick off" archons either, the thing just has too much shields. Only problem was getting them lifted during battle and having the resource trade favor the Phoenix player almost 3:1
But I didn't think of Archons being a good defensive option against failed or even successful DT opening...it might just make opening DT's a very safe option against Terran now
No you are right, you can read the game better then me i still dont have that kind of experiance but i get along ok when i use toss .. PvZ 1 - scout pos if ovie doesnt give close air pos away, check for 6-pool, .. finish off allmost walling ... dont scout ... dont scout ... dont scout ... dont scout ... < 6 mins boom im gettin attacked !!! lings/ blings ? insta forcefield, block off their retreat too kill them off with 1 maybe 2 instawarp stalkers ! Roaches ? insta forefield twice maybe 3 times so i can get enough stalkers to deal with them then cut them off with another FF and deal with 3 or so at a time ... muta rush ??? insta warp stalkers in mineral line !!! - Then 6-7 > mins get hallucinate and / or obs and I have total knowledge of my opponents comp/tech/bases etc
Sigh...this is just.., uh. I think you should just focus on getting better than complaining about how you believe how other races operate because just reading your above post is painfully embarrassing.
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EPT
