|
Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 28 2011 01:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:04 hugman wrote:On April 28 2011 00:40 awesomoecalypse wrote: agree that Queens being massive would make void-rays much more powerful against them, but the loss of phoenix harrass would perhaps balance that out a bit - Zergs might need to make an extra Queen to defend if they scouted an early void-ray push but wouldn't have to worry about phoenixes taking Queens out of the fight. Here's how the fight between a Void and a Massive Queen would shake out: -queen dies- So you'd have to make more Queens, it would totally be worth it if they could trample Force Fields. Besides, Phoenixes wouldn't be able to pick them up. But...what if he doesn't? What if he shows you a stargate, then, knowing your only hope to survive Voids is to do nothing but make Queens (which can't be used for offense)...he just takes an expansion or two? What then? You're macro is fucked cause you made way too many Queens, even with that many it will be a while before you can creep up the map enough to try to punish him, and in the meantime he's pulling further ahead on expansions. All because he made a Stargate, and you knew your only hope of surviving Voids if they came was to blindly pump Queens.
If Protoss spends 150/150 on a Stargate he doesn't use then you can make 2-3 extra Queens and not be behind at all, and your Queens will be much more useful than his idle Stargate. Queens are great already, they'd be even better if they trampled FFs.
|
If you're going for a robo or stargate build, that extra 40 seconds of research time for warpgate gives you the crucial extra time required to get out that immortal/voidray/pheonix that you didn't have before, combined with it being harder to warp up the ramp, it's bound to have a decent effect on PvP having options to defend a 4gate other than 4gate. Plus archons being massive is yet another small buff making them ever so slightly less useless. Decent patch, although I'm not looking forward to the ghost cost buff  ghosts are so hard to deal with as P, and people may actually start using them more now.
|
Man this warpgate change is absolutely enormous. Really They could have fixed the whole thing by disabling cliff-warping on the outer 2 hexes of a pylon in all directions but no.. they have to change every protoss build ever :/ It will be like playing a different game for a week but I'm sure we'll get used to it o_0
|
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit.
|
From a Zerg perspective, with all these timing delays (Stim, Reaper speed, now warpgate) , etc. Does it seem like they are trying to balance out the timing aspects vs Zerg overall ? Every timing that seemed to kill zerg in 6-7 minutes are getting delayed by 40 sec and more, giving Zergs a better timing window to pump drones \ get more units. Is this in the back of their heads when doing this ?
|
Personally I think Archon should have just got an ability similar to the ultralisk that makes it immune to certain things like lift, stun, slow and mind control instead of being upgraded to massive. To me it just doesn't make sense for an Archon to be massive and destroy forcefields because it really isn't that big, but it being immune to effects because it's a mass of energy does.
|
On April 28 2011 01:41 epoc wrote:
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit.
More like it's not going to happen because void rays would be way to effective against them.
|
On April 28 2011 01:41 epoc wrote:
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit.
It is bigger than the archon is haha.
Anyways, I don't think it is going to happen either, because the warp-gate build time increase should give zergs enough time to get spine crawlers up to truly defend the rush well.
|
On April 28 2011 01:41 epoc wrote:
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit.
There way queens used to work pre-beta was that you only had one queen, which you could upgrade to a large queen and eventually in a huge queen. I think they still have the models for that.
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090506210934/starcraft/images/thumb/6/66/Queen_SC2_DevRend1.jpg/200px-Queen_SC2_DevRend1.jpg)
Having only one queen to be able to morph into a large queen once you hit lair just for it to become massive should be a fix that is both easy to implement, yet have zero effect on ZvT or ZvZ. Then again, that would give zerg a 'new' unit halfway through WoL. And I kind of doubt they would do that, however, they might reimplement it in HotS. With a big red bolded circle around might.
|
Ok, I wanted to bring up the effects this patch will have on 2gate ZvP. I mean they nerfed the zealot build time in the past simply because 2gate was too strong early game vs Zerg. What makes it any different now? Will Zerg be able to hold it any better?
If this has already been discussed, can someone point me to the page in this ridiculously long thread?
|
On April 28 2011 01:44 BlackMagister wrote:
Personally I think Archon should have just got an ability similar to the ultralisk that makes it immune to certain things like lift, stun, slow and mind control instead of being upgraded to massive. To me it just doesn't make sense for an Archon to be massive and destroy forcefields because it really isn't that big, but it being immune to effects because it's a mass of energy does.
You could always think that a mass of energy would destroy a force field. Especially since that forcefield's energy is known by the Archon.
|
On April 28 2011 01:48 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:41 epoc wrote:
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit. There way queens used to work pre-beta was that you only had one queen, which you could upgrade to a large queen and eventually in a huge queen. I think they still have the models for that. Having only one queen to be able to morph into a large queen once you hit lair just for it to become massive should be a fix that is both easy to implement, yet have zero effect on ZvT or ZvZ. Then again, that would give zerg a 'new' unit halfway through WoL. And I kind of doubt they would do that, however, they might reimplement it in HotS. With a big red bolded circle around might.
Easy to implement but a massive change in gameplay, Blizzard said they wouldn't be doing these types of nerfs.
Force fields maybe too strong against Roach/Hydra but IMO, they aren't strong enough against Bling/Ling/Infestor/Ulitra 
|
Then it wouldn't be breaking down the forcefield because of its' size but because of its' "aura." Anyways minor complaints it does the same thing in the end, although you can fit two archons in a warp prism right? All massive units of the other races can only fit one massive unit in their drop unit, wonder if this patch will affect possible archon drops.
|
On April 28 2011 01:59 BlackMagister wrote:
Then it wouldn't be breaking down the forcefield because of its' size but because of its' "aura." Anyways minor complaints it does the same thing in the end, although you can fit two archons in a warp prism right? All massive units of the other races can only fit one massive unit in their drop unit, wonder if this patch will affect possible archon drops.
lol, i've never seen any archon drops =(
|
On April 28 2011 01:08 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:06 nichan wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but in what way will the archon been massive change the PVP game? (Honest question)
Stomp force fields/Can't be lifted by phoenixes basically. That's the important part at least
And better tanking of marauder balls. They're still not going to do much, but at least they'll get a couple shots in or gain better positioning for the protoss army. Combine with chargelots and you'll be able to soften them up pretty good.
|
On April 28 2011 01:48 Encrypto wrote:
Ok, I wanted to bring up the effects this patch will have on 2gate ZvP. I mean they nerfed the zealot build time in the past simply because 2gate was too strong early game vs Zerg. What makes it any different now? Will Zerg be able to hold it any better?
If this has already been discussed, can someone point me to the page in this ridiculously long thread?
Holding the 2gate wasn't really the issue, the problem was how it forced Zerg to 1base until roaches. A couple of things have changed: map sizes mean you can't really 2gate inbase on most maps anymore, and also roaches are now much better, which means that a roach counterattack against a 2gater would be much more powerful. I think both these factors allow for a 5s zealot time reduction.
Besides, it's OK if the 2gate comes back, as long as it's just one possible strategy. I can't see it being overpowering like it was before.
|
Would a maximum range on warpgates, where you could only warp to an energy field within X distance of the warpgate itself, be a better solution?
|
On April 27 2011 11:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +You can probably get more units out by chrono'ing 3 gateways and getting slow WG tech Warpgate gives you the "free" cycle though when you first research them. If you forego warpgate for a gateway push, I'm not sure you'll make up for not having that extra handful of units.
I was playing around with SCBuildOrder a few weeks ago, and it gave me some funky timings where you could delay the warpgate a few seconds and squeeze a round of units out of the 2nd/3rd/4th gateways right before WG finished. It gives you 7 units in the first attack, and 7 in the first wave of reinforcements (instead of 4) with current. Or put another way, at the exact moment of the attack, the defender has 3 units versus 7, but if they can survive for ten seconds, they have 10 versus 7. And that's with current timings. Eyeballing the PTR changes, I think that a defensive 4gate player will always have more units than the attacker. Or an Immortal, or Phoenix, etc.
|
On April 28 2011 02:00 Sixto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:59 BlackMagister wrote:
Then it wouldn't be breaking down the forcefield because of its' size but because of its' "aura." Anyways minor complaints it does the same thing in the end, although you can fit two archons in a warp prism right? All massive units of the other races can only fit one massive unit in their drop unit, wonder if this patch will affect possible archon drops. lol, i've never seen any archon drops =(
watch whitera
|
On April 28 2011 01:58 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 01:48 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 28 2011 01:41 epoc wrote:
I find the massive queen idea pretty cool. But I'd say it's never gonna happen because queen isn't really a big unit. There way queens used to work pre-beta was that you only had one queen, which you could upgrade to a large queen and eventually in a huge queen. I think they still have the models for that. Having only one queen to be able to morph into a large queen once you hit lair just for it to become massive should be a fix that is both easy to implement, yet have zero effect on ZvT or ZvZ. Then again, that would give zerg a 'new' unit halfway through WoL. And I kind of doubt they would do that, however, they might reimplement it in HotS. With a big red bolded circle around might. Easy to implement but a massive change in gameplay, Blizzard said they wouldn't be doing these types of nerfs. Force fields maybe too strong against Roach/Hydra but IMO, they aren't strong enough against Bling/Ling/Infestor/Ulitra
If you could somehow manage to get ultras out at the 10 minute mark. *snark, snark* Sentries are pretty powerful in the early game -- since map control is very unstable at the beginning, protoss can march right up to your base and cut off your reinforcements pretty easily.
The 4 gate, nexus cancel is somewhat difficult to prepare for. I usually build lings in the main and hope I have enough time to get them out before they FF my ramp. Otherwise I have to snipe those sentries or force FF in the middle of the map. Either way it ends up being pretty even or I just plain lose.
Having a massive unit early game might help. But it seems like a drastic measure and would deny the strategy outright. Rather than see that type of harassment build die off I'd like to think there's a much more minor tweak/build that can deal with sentries.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
