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On May 05 2011 11:46 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote:
The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else. I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn?
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On May 05 2011 08:05 Alizee- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:32 denzelz wrote:On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote:
CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more. Can someone please ban this guy? Why don't you go and complain about every tournament that features Gold level and lower players? You are saying that unless woman who play SC2 compete in bikinis, they are not allowed to form their own community? Don't read about female SC2 cup if you don't give a shit about it. We wouldn't miss your witty comments, trust me. You just ignored everything that Catz said in his amazing post and gave some bullshit example about how you used to drive go-kart. l2life. Ironically you answered your own question. Essentially anyone can enter a gold level tournament the only requirement is that they are in that league. There are no physical restrictions, guy, girl, black, white, young, old. Nothing matters except that they're of similar skill, there's no bias or stripulations. I'm glad you love CatZ because he's a recognized name and therefore glorify any post he makes and discredit mine, but I have no business in that. People want a way to feel accomplishment even when they're in a vacuum. Frankly again to bring up my baseball analogy, no girls really play baseball specifically. Is that harmful to the sport? Clearly not. I'm all for encouraging people to play, but are the free, anyone can enter type tournaments not encouraging this already? Encouraging segments of the population just for sake of growth, even if the interest isn't sustainable is worthless long term. Just to throw a random name out there, I see dde from sixjax in a lot of tournaments aside from the bigger stuff, I can play in a free to enter tournament not because I'm anything other than a person playing starcraft and I can play in it. I can try my best to win it all or maybe I'll just lose and learn something along the way. At the same time, maybe I'm not looking to get stomped and I'm in the gold league and I like the feel of a tournament format, even if its for nothing or even 5 bucks, but hey I'm in gold league and other than that, no matter who I am physically or where I came from or my experience or background I can compete against others. That's the beauty of electronic competition. There's already tournaments that are free to enter as well as tournaments that cater to different skill levels, why segment it anymore other than for the sake of some obscure rationalization that it promotes our community? Other than for a popularity contest and a shallow image of self worth, these female only, right handed only, only have blond hair, etc. tournaments aren't doing anything for anyone other than as I said being good marketing for companies to make more money at best. I don't treat this as some sort of "they must be stopped!" type situation, but people wonder where the criticism comes from and why and I feel like myself and other posters pretty clearly explain why its not helping anyone in the end.
I've made this argument before and I'll make it again. So we should ban the CSL and High school starcraft leagues? I mean those physical restrictions of age sure are terrible and hurtful for everyone, aren't they.
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On May 05 2011 11:39 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:46 Sueco wrote:
And you need to read up on the scientific method if you think that modern neurology can unequivocally state that the male brain has an inherent advantage at strategy gaming.
It's not even about the mind. Open a biology textbook beyond first year, and you'll find plenty. We're not just talking about how the brain differs (which it does unequivocally), but we're talking physically as well. And before the "moving a mouse isn't physical" nonsense comes out, we're talking about the differences in motor skills, dexterity, etc... Add in the thought process differences and it's not hard to see. And this is all found by reading.
Biologically you can make an argument for male muscle mass advantages, height, weight, etc.
If you are trying to make an argument that men have an inherent physical advantage in the motor skills and dexterity moving a mouse, you are a fucking idiot. These things are completely dependent on practice, and nothing more. The more time you spend repeating a motion, the better the muscle memory and the faster the response. Typing, clicking, hotkey-sequences, scales on the piano, painting-- the motor and dexterity skills are completely dependent on time invested in improving them, and nothing more. It is completely unrelated to sex.
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On May 05 2011 11:39 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:46 Sueco wrote:
And you need to read up on the scientific method if you think that modern neurology can unequivocally state that the male brain has an inherent advantage at strategy gaming.
It's not even about the mind. Open a biology textbook beyond first year, and you'll find plenty. We're not just talking about how the brain differs (which it does unequivocally), but we're talking physically as well. And before the "moving a mouse isn't physical" nonsense comes out, we're talking about the differences in motor skills, dexterity, etc... Add in the thought process differences and it's not hard to see. And this is all found by reading.
Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
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On May 05 2011 11:53 rO_Or wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:46 Thermia wrote:On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote:
The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else. I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion. Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn?
Prolly just angst-fueled nerds who hate hot chicks in general because they can't get with such attractive girls.
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Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
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On May 05 2011 11:57 Chainfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:53 rO_Or wrote:On May 05 2011 11:46 Thermia wrote:On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote:
The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else. I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion. Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn? Prolly just angst-fueled nerds who hate hot chicks in general because they can't get with such attractive girls.
I have absolutely no problem with attractive women (and have "gotten with" a couple, too). Believe it or not, it is actually possible to like a picture while not being so female deprived that I can admit there are places where it does not belong, regardless of the fact that it might look attractive. But please, continue with the ad hominem.
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So if every asshole male could stop being a carebear to that it's "gurls" playing and just realise that she's probably better than 99% of the people here and she just won a cup, this would be a better community and we'd get a more balanced gender base.
My girlfriend works in video games so I know it's not easy because it's one of the most sexist industries known... either way for as someone said in another topic regarding girl gaming;
For every 1 girl gamer theres atleast 20 males, so for every 1 000 000 girls theres 20 000 000 males and if the real "pro" gamers only make 0.0001% of the player pool then there will be less woman pro's. Not because they are genetically programmed to make sandviches instead of kicking your ass in starcraft 2 but because there's simply not as many playing it.
Good job on the win, hope she continues to get better!
On May 05 2011 11:46 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote:
The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else. I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Because pictures of korean/foreigner players posing in and looking sexy is totally unknown? Fuck off it's a media trick everyone does.
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On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote:
Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio?
people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest.
my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me.
gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run
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On May 05 2011 12:03 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:57 Chainfire99 wrote:On May 05 2011 11:53 rO_Or wrote:On May 05 2011 11:46 Thermia wrote:On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote:
The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else. I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion. Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn? Prolly just angst-fueled nerds who hate hot chicks in general because they can't get with such attractive girls. I have absolutely no problem with attractive women (and have "gotten with" a couple, too). Believe it or not, it is actually possible to like a picture while not being so female deprived that I can admit there are places where it does not belong, regardless of the fact that it might look attractive. But please, continue with the ad hominem.
Yea i bet chicks just find you soooo fun. I have little doubt you make the ladies gooooo craaazy! ><
People like you make me want to rip my eyelids off with pliers.
I just thank God that there are people like you around to make sure everything is prim, proper, and politically correct. You should be given the title of Knight of Decency and we should all bask in your self-righteous fury. Save it for church, Priest.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 05 2011 12:11 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote:
Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^ i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio? people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest. my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me. gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run
A Girl-cup is a way of female gamers to associate with other female gamers and create potential friendships, which encourages them to play more. This increases the involvement in SC2 and E-sports.
Its not a huge professional tournament with thousands of dollars on line so why not allow female gamers to meet others in a controlled and competitive environment?
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On May 05 2011 12:26 lachy89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 12:11 turdburgler wrote:On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote:
Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^ i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio? people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest. my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me. gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run A Girl-cup is a way of female gamers to associate with other female gamers and create potential friendships, which encourages them to play more. This increases the involvement in SC2 and E-sports. Its not a huge professional tournament with thousands of dollars on line so why not allow female gamers to meet others in a controlled and competitive environment?
i dont know how else to reply
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Egalitarianism is great and all but in a competition dominated by male participation, highlighting female gamer successes and contributions is not the worst thing in the world. There are no explicit restrictions but social norms and insecure individuals do pressure out or subjugate any outward female presence in the community. Its not all equal, not by a long shot.
When a female gamer speaks or it becomes generally known she is a girl, they commonly get hit with gender specific, cliche jokes or totally objectified and polarized. If they are going to get singled out in some manner, at least until outward female gaming becomes the norm, then kudos to them for taking the initiative and displaying female gaming in their own light rather then in the less then tasteful manner you get in many other games.
Besides, creating a few female gaming icons to encourage more outward female participation in the future is a good thing in the long run.
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On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote:there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.]
The same exact argument can be made of the Korean/non-Korean divide. The problem is that culture matters. Before we can reach the ideal point (no distinction between male/female or Korean/non-Korean), there need to be means of encouraging the growth of these flagging sectors. We've spent a lot of energy making sure non-Korean eSports remains competitive with Korean - some think we've reached that point (myself included) - but we can't forget that there was a point when non-Korean StarCraft was far inferior to Korean, and without special care paid to our community it's doubtful we could've generated the community we have now.
The same opportunity should be granted to women, for whom eSports is still a hostile environment (this thread is evidence).
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On May 05 2011 12:26 lachy89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 12:11 turdburgler wrote:On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote:
Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^ i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio? people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest. my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me. gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run A Girl-cup is a way of female gamers to associate with other female gamers and create potential friendships, which encourages them to play more. This increases the involvement in SC2 and E-sports. Its not a huge professional tournament with thousands of dollars on line so why not allow female gamers to meet others in a controlled and competitive environment?
Yeah this, it's naive and usually 90% males whom have no female partner that don't realize how cold, unforgiving and inhospitable gaming can be to girls. There is a reason who not alot of woman play games.
If nothing else it makes alot of woman feel less alienated and part of the movement which is starcraft, just as with bronze/silver tournaments. Or is the doublequoted person going to whine on them for exluding people aswell?
Not saying girls are fragile here, saying nerds are ignorant assholes who argue for the sake of arguing alot which would tire anyone who just wants to play a game and have fun whilst doing it... not being questioned why they were born with a vagine instead of a penis.
Anyway I'll leave this be for now as to not derail it any further.
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I think it's pretty amusing how TL.net has had a long, illustrious history (especially during Brood War) of having tournaments that are 'foreigner only'. How are these any different from female-only tournaments? In both cases, the best of the best players don't play. People throw a hissy fit about this, but not about foreigner tournaments?
Suck it up gents. Grats to EZPikachu.
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On May 05 2011 12:35 divito wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better. On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote:
Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant. Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined. ![[image loading]](http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/NEL.ht1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/NEL.ht6.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/NEL.ht7.jpg) Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
Yeah, old statistics are usually incorrect statistics, especially regarding woman/races. Note some of those statistics are older than womans right to vote in Switzerland 
Ofcourse there are differences, I just don't think there so big as to woman never being able to beat males at cognitive thinking and playing games. In sports woman will always be lesser than males in muscle and thus perform less... but that is at the top 0.0000001 performing since the woman in the olympics are better than just about any male on earth other than those males in the olympics.
(EDIT: Sorry said I would keep off but was just to tempted to comment on this)
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Sweden33719 Posts
I really think its pretty bad form to turn this thread into this type of debate.
After winning, well, anything and seeing a thread about it go up... Do you really think that person wants to read an off-topic discussion about whether the tournament type they just won, should even exist?
I know thats the last thing Id want to read anyway...
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EPT
