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On April 24 2011 12:18 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 12:04 SilverPotato wrote:On April 24 2011 12:00 Mailing wrote:
Weakest? Hardly.
Maybe hardest to play, but even that is stretching it. I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah T is much harder than zerg and especially toss. How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production.
Terran have the most capability for Multi-tasking (just like SC1)
Terran have the best harass options, and generally HAVE TO use them to keep up with Zerg and Toss.
Terran have units that can be super efficient with impeccable unit control/strategy, and as such require a lot of micro to use to max potential.
I guess that's not really "mechanics" like creep spread and injecting, but Terran definitely do have the highest skill cap and require the most technical skill. Simple things like supply depots being raisable (and as such adding even more possibilities for smart plays, like Boxer's watch tower supply depot) adds to this as well.
edit: this is not even talking about things like how important building placement is, how important positioning is for the Terran army, addon management, tech switching etc which all add up even more stuff to think about.
I may be biased but I think everything I said makes sense.
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Awesome stuff, thank you Artosis!
On April 24 2011 19:02 WhiteDog wrote:
Saying terran is weak is absolute bullshit if you consider how good the terran are doing in tourney since the beginning of the game.
On the other side, I do think Terran is one of the hardest race, if not the hardest race to play at high level.
Zerg is easier in maccro but needs more of timing / game sense.
Even though it doesn't seem to fit MVP's personality, maybe he's just trolling xD
That would be hilarious.
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On April 24 2011 19:02 WhiteDog wrote:
Saying terran is weak is absolute bullshit if you consider how good the terran are doing in tourney since the beginning of the game.
He's obviously talking as someone that has played Terran from the beginning. Combine all the nerfs (most of them - if not all - justified) plus the maps becoming bigger and it's not that strange of a statement. While I don't agree with him saying that it's a weak race, it's still understandable that he feels that way since Terran has gotten significantly worse (or less OP, however you'd like to put it) over time while Protoss has gotten stronger and Zerg has stayed more or less the same.
Like, how do you think he feels about MC being the GSL champion? MVP got famous for being incredibly solid and macro-oriented, MC is famous for taking risk after risk and being rewarded for it. You probably couldn't roll the dice with Terran or Zerg at the moment and get that much success. Obviously that's just speculation on my part. It's also about more than just pure game balance, much much more. But balance is the easiest thing for players to point to since the game is fairly young and is going to be continuously patched for quite some time.
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Hahaha at artosis in the Mvp interview at 4:20, he looked pretty damn close to bursting in laughter
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On April 24 2011 19:59 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 12:18 infinity2k9 wrote:On April 24 2011 12:04 SilverPotato wrote:On April 24 2011 12:00 Mailing wrote:
Weakest? Hardly.
Maybe hardest to play, but even that is stretching it. I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah T is much harder than zerg and especially toss. How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production. Terran have the most capability for Multi-tasking (just like SC1) Terran have the best harass options, and generally HAVE TO use them to keep up with Zerg and Toss. Terran have units that can be super efficient with impeccable unit control/strategy, and as such require a lot of micro to use to max potential. I guess that's not really "mechanics" like creep spread and injecting, but Terran definitely do have the highest skill cap and require the most technical skill. Simple things like supply depots being raisable (and as such adding even more possibilities for smart plays, like Boxer's watch tower supply depot) adds to this as well. I may be biased but I think everything I said makes sense.
yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play.
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On April 24 2011 20:03 Tekkerz wrote:
yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play.
Zerg is susceptible to earlygame crap that they can't scout. They don't have harder mechanics.
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On April 24 2011 19:54 thesums wrote:
For me it is Protoss > Terran > Zerg atm, PvT is quite balanced but Protoss is better vs zerg making them the best race still.
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zvp has a huge effect on overall power. and no matter how you look at it, zvp is not in a good state. zvt might not be "imba" but now is imho harder for the T on the big maps. and again on the big maps early game tvp is always a big gamble cause of P rushdistance ignore and lategame P should win.
right now i def would say T is hardest, Z 2nd, P easiest. and Z weakest overall, T middle and P strongest.
On April 24 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 20:03 Tekkerz wrote:
yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play.
Zerg is susceptible to earlygame crap that they can't scout. They don't have harder mechanics.
basic macro stuff (injecting,producing, creep/OL spread etc) is way more apm intensive then t/p
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I play Zerg and even I know that Terran mechanics are way harder. Toss is probably the easiest to play and Zerg perhaps the most frustrating, but in terms of which race has the hardest multitasking I'd have to say it's Terran.
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On April 24 2011 20:03 Tekkerz wrote:
yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play.
Zerg players seem to overstate this a rather large amount. They really aren't that hard to play. Other than timings on using larvae (obviously a big deal, but still only one thing), they're pretty simple. The larvae mechanic is forgiving of making the wrong stuff or making it late, their units are fast thus forgiving positional errors, their units are cheap so it's less costly screwing up and losing them, etc.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
MVP is a notorious, self-confessed QQer so it doesn't surprise me that he said it.
Thanks for the awesome content Artosis! Oh and I can see Hwanni cut some corners while translating some of your questions  Crack that whip man!
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"Omg its a voidray!" lol
Nice work again, Artosis, thanks alot!
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On April 24 2011 20:08 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
basic macro stuff (injecting,producing, creep/OL spread etc) is way more apm intensive then t/p
Injecting isn't that APM intensive, it's more an issue of timing and remembering to do it. Creep/ovie spread, sure. Production?? They produce very few buildings, and their entire unit production consists of pressing one hotkey then spamming out whatever they want. It's by far the least APM intensive production.
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On April 24 2011 20:11 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 20:03 Tekkerz wrote:
yeah you are biased, i see your point but zerg is a lot tougher to play.
Zerg players seem to overstate this a rather large amount. They really aren't that hard to play. Other than timings on using larvae (obviously a big deal, but still only one thing), they're pretty simple. The larvae mechanic is forgiving of making the wrong stuff or making it late, their units are fast thus forgiving positional errors, their units are cheap so it's less costly screwing up and losing them, etc.
Less costly? Not really, Zerg is the least forgiving of all three races in terms of making mistakes, throwing units away unnecessarily.
Not only that, they become more expensive when you have to continually remake them, not to mention that aside from zerglings, most decent zerg units are gas expensive if you want a decent number and relatively inefficient unit wise to their cost, a lot of times you need to outplay your opponent of equal skill quite some way to reap the rewards.
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On April 24 2011 13:57 SilverPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 13:56 SwirlQ wrote:On April 24 2011 12:28 Djeez wrote:On April 24 2011 12:21 soupchicken wrote:On April 24 2011 12:18 infinity2k9 wrote:On April 24 2011 12:04 SilverPotato wrote:On April 24 2011 12:00 Mailing wrote:
Weakest? Hardly.
Maybe hardest to play, but even that is stretching it. I'm sorry but it's not beta anymore... Yeah T is much harder than zerg and especially toss. How? Mechanically? Zerg is clearly harder mechanically, just the nature of the race and balancing drone/unit production. I play Zerg... and even I think that Terran mechanics are the hardest to do perfectly. But then again I just might be just so used to Zerg that I don't realize how difficult it can be. Agreed. Terran mechanics and micro is way harder than Zerg imo. I think that Zerg requires a better game sense/game knowledge/timings though. And toss? ez read my mind. formula for success with toss Good BO + Good FF = win Don't forget the ability to move around an automatically formed death ball!
You guys need seriously to go play tournaments with toss! I bet you guys would be top 5 world if you played it! Actually all toss players have no skill, they are monkeys who know build orders and FF placement! Right?
Hahhaa i see so much pearls on this forum!
I find Zerg macro easier than all 3 tbh. Don't know exactly what people are talking about it being the hardest. Creep spreading and injecting larva doesn't take brains, it's just a routine. And except for one thing or another, the rest is equal or easier than the other 2.
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I just realized:
Artosis was/is one of the community's proponents of balance QQ.
Artosis started this thread.
Artosis named this thread. The thread claims that there is imbalance regarding Terran.
Thus, Artosis is inciting the masses to QQ about balance! He be trolling us on TL lol.
Anyways, balance derailment complaining aside, it's really interesting to hear about the coach's plan to possibly recruit foreigners. Although MVP and Nestea are GSL champions and the IM has shown great success in team leagues, perhaps having a foreigner in the house can help the team connect better to the non-Korean community. We've already seen Torch do a commendable job getting Startale to participate in events for the foreign community. IM is a fantastic team, so it would be awesome to see them do more stuff for us foreigners.
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The IM players are such an inspiration. Thank you.
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On April 24 2011 13:49 Darclite wrote:
I mean no offense to Terran players, but I am not seeing the same effort put into learning about the game as I am from Protoss or Zerg. For example, look at the strategy channels on the NA server. The Zerg channel will have 80 people, the Protoss channel will have 70, and the Terran one will have 6.
Just wanted to mention that the reason that there are only 5 or so people in the Terran Strategy Chat Channels are because of a bug in the coding. Where the Terran Chat are all limited to only 5 people per channel, in all the regions. Blizzard knows about the problem, so now we're just waiting for it to get fixed. So it's busted everywhere, and not empty because we don't have the drive to improve but because of the bug.
Also, I just wanted to note, in terms of the state of TvZ right now, with the Infestors and all, I think it's pretty absurd that they only cost 100min150gas and cause a whole world of pain(with FG, NP and Infested Terrans), but a Ghost costs 150/150 and dies pretty fast without ups and does shit damage to armored (which btw Infestors are).
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Love these videos artosis! You're the man!
Lol at interview with MVP, terran the weakest! buff terran!
Also interesting news from the headcoach, wonder what foreigners they have in mind, cant wait for them to take foreigner into their team. Also would love to see more MVP/Nestea/Losira in international tournaments!
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On April 24 2011 20:18 silverraygun wrote:
Less costly? Not really, Zerg is the least forgiving of all three races in terms of making mistakes, throwing units away unnecessarily.
Cheap units are always the most forgiving to lose, and they're generally pretty mobile too which helps save more stuff from a screwup. Slow, expensive units are on the opposite end. So sure, when Zerg has broodlords, screwing up is extremely unforgiving. But ling/bling/roach? Pretty forgiving. And those are the core of most Zerg armies.
Not only that, they become more expensive when you have to continually remake them,
..everything does..they are however less expensive to remake than say stalkers, therefore it is more forgiving when you screw up and lose them.
not to mention that aside from zerglings, most decent zerg units are gas expensive if you want a decent number and relatively inefficient unit wise to their cost, a lot of times you need to outplay your opponent of equal skill quite some way to reap the rewards.
I fail to see how their gas expensive is relevant.
Zerg cost inefficiency is a myth.
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I feel terran has gotten definitely weaker. TvZ might be belanced, but on big maps. It's so extremely difficult to play TvZ and I see why every terran has a hard time playing against zerg .Against protoss on big maps is silly aswell. Protoss gets a safe fast expand, terran does not and has to prepare for a million and one things. 4 gate, 3gate star, 3 gate robo, 6 gate, 5 gate. Just to name a few. Combine that with the fact that late game protoss is actually superior and they can't be touched because of forcefields, it's incredible hard to break a protoss. Zerg is still the weakest overall. I feel it's Protoss>Terran>Zerg. I think this might actually change into Protoss>zerg>terran once zergs get good with fungal usage.
Zerg cost inefficiency is a myth.
Just like gateway units cost inefficiency.
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EPT
