|
On April 24 2011 20:31 Yaotzin wrote:
Cheap units are always the most forgiving to lose, and they're generally pretty mobile too which helps save more stuff from a screwup. Slow, expensive units are on the opposite end. So sure, when Zerg has broodlords, screwing up is extremely unforgiving. But ling/bling/roach? Pretty forgiving. And those are the core of most Zerg armies.
The zerg early game is pretty volatile comparatively with so much the player has to scout for and try and react to, therefore unnecessarily losing even cheap units like zerglings can suddenly make an instant game over. Though by mid game it is more stable.
..everything does..they are however less expensive to remake than say stalkers, therefore it is more forgiving when you screw up and lose them.
Mistakes are still pretty punishing since zerg units are generally weak (though that is their nature by design), and therefore any mistake can result in losing a lot.
Zerg cost inefficiency is a myth.
Ultras?
|
i think with the longer position maps terran is weaker, but they are so mobile that they can still pull wins out easy, 1 medivac can win them the game.
|
I love that sign at the door! :p
And yeah, the fact that terran is the hardest race has always been overshadowed by the fact that terran has always been really, really powerful. People somehow relate the overall power of a race to how hard it is to play. Kind of silly.
|
Also, I just wanted to note, in terms of the state of TvZ right now, with the Infestors and all, I think it's pretty absurd that they only cost 100min150gas and cause a whole world of pain(with FG, NP and Infested Terrans), but a Ghost costs 150/150 and dies pretty fast without ups and does shit damage to armored (which btw Infestors are).
This is such a stupid comparison rofl. Your complaing that a ghost dies fast when it has more hp then an infestor, has the ability to snipe and then you say it cant do dmg to an infestor when it can both emp rendering it useless and snipe it easily.
|
|
|
On April 24 2011 20:59 Kojaimea wrote:
Losira is the cutest.
I agree.
|
+ Show Spoiler +After yesterdays MC vs Thorzain I was happy because the LR thread was mostly balance whine free. Also even the matches felt kinda even so I don't know from where this Terran is weak shit is coming from. Thorzain just took out MC 3-2 in mid/long macro games.
This is why pro players should stay quiet about their opinions and just talk to blizzard directly. Everytime some progamer says this or that race is weak, it enables all the whine to start and when before nobody was saying anything, suddenly it's "oh my god so this is why I have been losing".
+ Show Spoiler +Also saying that after he just won a GSL WC Championshit against another Terran seems kinda stupid.
|
well alot of people that love terran from bw probably feel that terran got weaker, but mostly they won't admit this unless you ask them directly  .
I think with the recent new zerg methods to abuse the marine split and still disallow clumping and since terrans don't really have something else against mutas it got a bit complicated. though i think its not a gamebreaker.
And its always funny when zergs complain about larva management as being so complicated. Its maybe complicated to know when you need to save up but drones ... no not at all, you can easily use 1 larva per opponents worker production facility to not fall behind. Its also easy to know how much hatches you need to match the opponents combat unit production (well most of the time you don't since you are ahead by far on this)
and this cost inefficiency thing is really a myth, i thought terran would be and need an extra base. But in tvz its always the attacker that is loosing more ressources then the opponent, unless they do terrible infrastructure damage.
|
hahahahaha omg its a voidray lol <3 artosis hahaha
|
did i understand correctly that MVP is afraid to go abroad because of the violence? what does he think we are, cavemen who beat eacother to death with blunt objects over the smallest disagreeance?
|
On April 24 2011 20:50 silverraygun wrote:
The zerg early game is pretty volatile comparatively with so much the player has to scout for and try and react to, therefore unnecessarily losing even cheap units like zerglings can suddenly make an instant game over. Though by mid game it is more stable.
Early game is unforgiving for everyone. Simply not having much stuff makes the impact of losing any of it pretty painful. Ask any toss how bad it hurts to lose just a couple of sentries when 3gate expanding.
Mistakes are still pretty punishing since zerg units are generally weak (though that is their nature by design), and therefore any mistake can result in losing a lot.
Well, yeah. And Protoss units are slow so a mistake is harder to extricate yourself from. Tanks rely totally on their support so if you get caught chasing mutas or something you die, etc etc. Starcraft is just a very unforgiving game in general. Zerg isn't moreso, just in different ways.
Ultras?
Other than sucking, what about them?
|
Poor IM... wish they'd get sponsored more 
|
Balance thoughts:
Currently , P > T = Z
I find that yeah, as zerg in the early game, you need to learn a lot of different timings of your opponent and how to deal with them. But once you have the majority of those down, you simply skyrocket ahead of terrans due to them still relying on 2 base or 3 base pushes.
There is no doubt in my mind that protoss is the strongest right now, but with the upcoming warpgate tweak ( and the hinted collosus nerf ) I can see this changing around. Personally I would love that collosi don't have that much of a prominent role in PvT. Because man, + Show Spoiler [MCvsThorzain spoiler] + that game on Tal Darim altar between MC and thorzain was the most entertaining match I have seein PvT in a long long time.
/Balance thoughs
Amazing interviews Artosis  at the first question it seemed like losira just understood you and immedately wanted to answer. Maybe his english is pretty good, or hes just psyching everyone out.
|
I can't fathom from where people get this idea that Protoss is doing especially well against Terran.
|
On April 24 2011 20:49 Endorsed wrote:I feel terran has gotten definitely weaker. TvZ might be belanced, but on big maps. It's so extremely difficult to play TvZ and I see why every terran has a hard time playing against zerg .Against protoss on big maps is silly aswell. Protoss gets a safe fast expand, terran does not and has to prepare for a million and one things. 4 gate, 3gate star, 3 gate robo, 6 gate, 5 gate. Just to name a few. Combine that with the fact that late game protoss is actually superior and they can't be touched because of forcefields, it's incredible hard to break a protoss. Zerg is still the weakest overall. I feel it's Protoss>Terran>Zerg. I think this might actually change into Protoss>zerg>terran once zergs get good with fungal usage. Just like gateway units cost inefficiency.
Gateway units are cost inefficient unless you have superior upgrades or it is a small engagement where you can rape face with force fields. In a big battle gateway units are not cost-efficient against pretty much anything.
|
On April 24 2011 21:14 Yaotzin wrote:
Early game is unforgiving for everyone. Simply not having much stuff makes the impact of losing any of it pretty painful. Ask any toss how bad it hurts to lose just a couple of sentries when 3gate expanding.
Zerg not only has to deal with stuff like bunker cheese, pylon proxy/cannon shenanigans, banshees, hellions, possibly DTs, but couple all this with zerg's pretty lousy scouting options early on, and that zerg don't have walls, and have to micro hard to deal with whatever is thrown at them means that it is especially more unforgiving since sometimes its just a guessing game plus you have to play better in these circumstances to survive against somebody of equal measure. I've heard a lot of pros from even non-zergs all acknowledge these things.
Well, yeah. And Protoss units are slow so a mistake is harder to extricate yourself from. Tanks rely totally on their support so if you get caught chasing mutas or something you die, etc etc. Starcraft is just a very unforgiving game in general. Zerg isn't moreso, just in different ways.
Stalkers are pretty quick. But I still think that zerg is less forgiving in terms of mistakes just because everything from zerg dies so much faster if you get caught out, also having to bring in the drone management issue again, just because odd timings will just kill you and there's almost nothing you could have done unless you had a perfect scout/read (almost impossible these days unless they mess up or you get real lucky).
Other than sucking, what about them?
Pretty expensive, pretty terrible - cost inefficient for a tier 3 unit that also takes ages to build/tech to.
|
On April 24 2011 21:27 Bergys wrote:
Gateway units are cost inefficient unless you have superior upgrades or it is a small engagement where you can rape face with force fields. In a big battle gateway units are not cost-efficient against pretty much anything.
Chrono-boosting those upgrades (often on two forges) is pretty good I hear.
Anybody remember when Adelscott stomped mvp? Gateway units were surprisingly good when you get that fast armour upgrade.
Oops, double post.. sorry.
|
great videos - ty artosis
|
Yeah, once Protoss started upgrading that's when a lot of whine started to begin, It's funny how long it took Terran players to actually realize they have upgrades too. Watch some Thorzain then say Terran is the weakest race.
|
On April 24 2011 21:03 Piski wrote:+ Show Spoiler +After yesterdays MC vs Thorzain I was happy because the LR thread was mostly balance whine free. Also even the matches felt kinda even so I don't know from where this Terran is weak shit is coming from. Thorzain just took out MC 3-2 in mid/long macro games. This is why pro players should stay quiet about their opinions and just talk to blizzard directly. Everytime some progamer says this or that race is weak, it enables all the whine to start and when before nobody was saying anything, suddenly it's "oh my god so this is why I have been losing". + Show Spoiler +Also saying that after he just won a GSL WC Championshit against another Terran seems kinda stupid.
I hate the title of this thread, the way it incites balance discussion. He believes T has to be aggressive to stay on par with other races - Z will outmacro T and P will out-deathball T unless T decides to mech. He stated that Terran feels weak in the context of large GSL maps because harassing got a lot harder.
Also, what do you expect him to do when Artosis goes around asking that question to everyone. There would be no problem with progamers commenting on balance if the community is mature enough to understand why the progamers say so rather than bickering.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
