EPT"Terran is the weakest race" - MVP, IM House Tour - Page 19
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ploy
United States416 Posts
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Protoss also has warpgates which makes 4 gates as strong on a small map as a big map. While say 2 rax pressure early becomes way weaker on larger maps. Not anything major, we all saw ThorZain play brilliantly yesterday. But its still there. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
I love these kind of interviews. It adds personality to the game. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:29 silverraygun wrote: Zerg not only has to deal with stuff like bunker cheese, pylon proxy/cannon shenanigans, banshees, hellions, possibly DTs, but couple all this with zerg's pretty lousy scouting options early on, and that zerg don't have walls, and have to micro hard to deal with whatever is thrown at them means that it is especially more unforgiving since sometimes its just a guessing game plus you have to play better in these circumstances to survive against somebody of equal measure. I've heard a lot of pros from even non-zergs all acknowledge these things. The cloaked stuff is unforgiving for everyone, as are hellions in your mineral line. Bunkers are cheesy as hell but I don't know what that has to do with this topic. Cannons punish greediness and are otherwise useless. Either way nothing to do with forgivingness. Stalkers are pretty quick. But I still think that zerg is less forgiving in terms of mistakes just because everything from zerg dies so much faster if you get caught out, also having to bring in the drone management issue again, just because odd timings will just kill you and there's almost nothing you could have done unless you had a perfect scout/read (almost impossible these days unless they mess up or you get real lucky). Stalkers are slower than all of ling/bling/roach, and that's toss's fastest unit. So yeah, pretty damn slow. Zerg stuff dies fast but runs fast, Toss stuff dies slower but runs slower. Not much difference. Pretty expensive, pretty terrible - cost inefficient for a tier 3 unit that also takes ages to build/tech to. So they're a kinda bad unit that needs a buff. That just makes them a bad unit, it doesn't make Zerg cost inefficient. Happily this issue is entirely objective: just go look at the unit lost/resources count in replays. If Zerg were cost inefficient, they would rack up larger losses than their opponent even when winning. This does not happen. I mean, it can, if they outmacro their opponent but fight badly, but that applies to all races. | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
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jaydee81
Germany119 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
Thank you for these insightful videos into the IM house, Artosis. You are a very dedicated person! | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2078 Posts
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
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silverraygun
United Kingdom32 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:02 Yaotzin wrote: The cloaked stuff is unforgiving for everyone, as are hellions in your mineral line. Bunkers are cheesy as hell but I don't know what that has to do with this topic. Cannons punish greediness and are otherwise useless. Either way nothing to do with forgivingness. Cheese forces you to react well or lose, and zergs tend to be cheesed quite a lot early game. Cloaked stuff especially banshees are marginally harder to deal with as Zerg since early anti air can be a problem unless your build involves a lot of queens and you might be totally blind to it. And remember theres no wall off to prevent stuff running into your base, harrassing and scouting. Stalkers are slower than all of ling/bling/roach, and that's toss's fastest unit. So yeah, pretty damn slow. Zerg stuff dies fast but runs fast, Toss stuff dies slower but runs slower. Not much difference. Those fast units have to be fast otherwise they are almost entirely useless. Protoss units are far more durable and more efficient as the game gets longer, especially with faster upgrades. So they're a kinda bad unit that needs a buff. That just makes them a bad unit, it doesn't make Zerg cost inefficient. That was just the main most obvious example, but hydras off creep, mutas have to harrass a ton and exploit mobility really well to make up for their cost, even zergling/baneling can eat up a lot of resources for you just to stay level pegging with your opponent if you are unable to make any decisive move that gives you the lead/win. If Zerg were cost inefficient, they would rack up larger losses than their opponent even when winning. This DOES happen a lot from personal playing experience and theres plenty of games where zerg will lose a lot of units to barely win, even when outplaying their opponents quite noticeably. In any case I don't want to be keep being offtopic, so you have your differing opinions, I'll have mine. | ||
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ThunderGod
New Zealand897 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:11 Callous wrote: I play Zerg and even I know that Terran mechanics are way harder. Toss is probably the easiest to play and Zerg perhaps the most frustrating, but in terms of which race has the hardest multitasking I'd have to say it's Terran. None of the races have "difficult" mechanics. I hear quite a bit that Terran have the hardest but as a Terran player I would say they are not difficult. I mean all there is to do is mule and pump units from 3 hotkeys (rax,fac,port) and manage addons/upgrades. + Show Spoiler + Everything in SC2 is easier than pumping marines individually from 12 barracks every 24 seconds and fixing the rally points from all of them when under attack. The races have different difficulties but mechanics aren't one of them. Zerg: Scouting and unit composition very important. Larvae management (not the larvae mechanic). Terran: Multitasking important, i.e harass heavy/positioning (e.g. tanks)/all units require micro in battle (mmm, vikings, hellions, tanks on banelings etc) and require it throughout the battle Protoss: Forcefielding ...yeah (master this and you master P lol) Terran have a lot of mid-game power through a diverse range of builds (mmm pushes, marine/tank pushes, Thor pushes, banshee/thor, hellion/banshee/marauder, 1/1/1 etc). I would say more-so than Protoss (Voidray/gateway, collosus/gateway, immortal/sentry/zealot). So diversity is a strength of Terran. This is why I feel like a lot of Terran win tournaments in these early days of SC2. Terran can delay their third in favour of any number of power pushes and not take a big eco hit (because mules can help them catch up) (and short maps help too because the opp has fewer production rounds to gain a unit advantage/type against the push). I feel like other races need to gain an earlier economic advantage (through earlier expanding on larger maps OR making the the 2 base push more of an (econ) risk by Blizz delaying the catchup ability i.e. delaying the mule mechanic (perhaps making it upgradeable at the O.C. - thus the T has to choose to go for a long macro game or a more risky timing attack). Though if that were the case Terran may need a buff late game (making the mule upgradeable but more powerful is perhaps the best way - armies max so quickly in SC2 that any explosion of units off three bases with a more powerful mule would only result in ~20 supply advantage by the time they maxed i.e. 200 to 180. ..An idea anyway. At the moment there are three ways to play Terran if you want success 1: Harass heavy style 2: Timing attack (usually in form of mid-game (2base) push) 3: Harass opening into a timing push (e.g. blue flame hellion drop opening into 2 base push) If you don't feel comfortable with harassing or timing attacks I suggest choosing a different race. Because being passive till late game is not a good recipe for Terran + Show Spoiler + lol sorry for rambling Terran guide | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 24 2011 20:00 sleepyguy wrote: Awesome stuff, thank you Artosis! Even though it doesn't seem to fit MVP's personality, maybe he's just trolling xD That would be hilarious. If you reckon a bit, Boxer was saying something around that to explain his slump : he was "thinking" (boxer is so manner) that his race was the weakest, but just after saying it was nothing but a feeling because of his loss. But if boxer is having this feeling, I don't think it's trolling but more a valuable analysis. Now as I said, I don't think they're weak, but I can still understand this statement because it's so easy to loose as terran if your tanks get taken off guard or if you control badly your marine ball. MVP in these vidz seems like a very nice and shy guy, I like his smile, pretty friendly. Seems like there is a good vibe in this pro gaming house. | ||
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diddLY
United States215 Posts
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:13 B.I.G. wrote: did i understand correctly that MVP is afraid to go abroad because of the violence? what does he think we are, cavemen who beat eacother to death with blunt objects over the smallest disagreeance? He said bilingual, I think. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:30 silverraygun wrote: Chrono-boosting those upgrades (often on two forges) is pretty good I hear. Anybody remember when Adelscott stomped mvp? Gateway units were surprisingly good when you get that fast armour upgrade. Oops, double post.. sorry. Just because you chrono-boost 2 forges doesn't mean you get 2-2 vs 0-0. Liquid Tyler used the double forge build vs Thorzain and if the terran keeps up it's nowhere near as useful. | ||
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Vidoc
Finland10 Posts
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grats
United States184 Posts
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ThunderGod
New Zealand897 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:17 silverraygun wrote: Cheese forces you to react well or lose, and zergs tend to be cheesed quite a lot early game. Cloaked stuff especially banshees are marginally harder to deal with as Zerg since early anti air can be a problem unless your build involves a lot of queens and you might be totally blind to it. And remember theres no wall off to prevent stuff running into your base, harrassing and scouting. So react well. I cheese (read: all-in) Zerg a fair bit because I struggle to compete with them late-game at my MMR level (Terran requires a lot of multitasking late-game and either my macro will slip or I become too passive). Some ops will say "that was a clever cheese, gg" and add it to their knowledge. Some will ragequit. And some will beat me because they react well. As for the other thing, building placement for all races is important to protect against harassment, including walling. I see many games where Zerg will wall with spine/hatch/queen/lings at nat and throw up an evo to protect against hellion runby, then cancel it after. Once you have lings being scouted is not a problem and you can usually get in with a drone before an ops wall is complete (if you are unlucky and scout last position you may need to sac an overlord true). | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On April 24 2011 22:33 WhiteDog wrote: If you reckon a bit, Boxer was saying something around that to explain his slump : he was "thinking" (boxer is so manner) that his race was the weakest, but just after saying it was nothing but a feeling because of his loss. But if boxer is having this feeling, I don't think it's trolling but more a valuable analysis. Now as I said, I don't think they're weak, but I can still understand this statement because it's so easy to loose as terran if your tanks get taken off guard or if you control badly your marine ball. MVP in these vidz seems like a very nice and shy guy, I like his smile, pretty friendly. Seems like there is a good vibe in this pro gaming house. MVP's feeling towards balance is due to the large maps hindering Terran's ability to be aggressive. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
"What?" | ||
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