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Well every race have a "siege" unit with 9 range (siege tanks, colossi and brood lords) so range decrease is out of question tbh. I wouldn't nerf them anyways.
Just buff ultralisks so they are even remotely useful aside from the quick-hive-spanishiwa build which I've yet to see against an equal skilled toss and that succeeds only by surprise; toss can easily counter that (don't even need immortals tbh, zealots do just fine). I suggest reducing their collison radius so they can actually get to the front and start being useful.
Also broodlords, why the heck doest it take so long to tech into them? It actually takes longer than BC's or carriers and they aren't as powerful as these units and they are 1 of 2 tier 3 unit zerg have so at least reduce their tech time so hive tech is more realistic in your average match...
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It's not so much the Colossus unit choice in prior of robotics facility being a surperior tech choice.
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Couldnt agree more. Nothing more boring then colossus. With its range and ability to move over units you basicly dont need any micro.
Its not fun at all to watch for spectators when 95% of games above 10 mins has colossus in them. Protoss has so much undiscovered potential that its a damn shame they have a unit that is better then everything else in most situations.
Think about warp prism with sentry to block of the ramp while zealots or DT's take down hatches or scv / tech. Mothership is insanely strong, but not very often we see one. Carriers has highest dps ingame, but we never see them.
Everything protoss does is based around colossus and yes, its fucking boring.
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I think the most important counter argument to the statement about a 200/200 well upgraded collosus / voidray army being unkillable by zerg is what Tyler said on sotg.
In SC:BW Protoss couldn't kill a maxed terran with upgrades. It's game over if it reaches that point. What you have to do is to stall that moment for as long as possible, drop everywhere etc etc.
What zergs do right now in the current metagame, is to be the defending race, and sit back and just max out on whatever and wait for the protoss to attack, and hope to remax.
This is not a good strategy, and will not be what's used in pro gaming in the future (I promise you, whatever buffs zerg get, they're not going to reach their full potential as turtles).
Protoss is a race depending on its high tech units, as every low tech unit is cost inefficient against every single counterpart unit in stacraft 2.
As for the 'Protoss players just a move trololol' argument: Zealots are the front units, and they're the slowest units in the army, meaning that if you A move, all your zealots will be behind the stalkers which, when it does happen in a pro level game, make me quite sad.
I guess I'm just being an idiot and kind of countering people in the thread, but what I really want is for people to relax, and wait a little. The best way of 'solving' the different matchups is, imo, by playing the game and try to find a new style to play.
I hope I don't come off too much as a dick. Happy easter ^^
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why do i feel like i have seen this type of thread like 400 times?
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I think the whole concept of having stuff in a death ball should be punished, or impossible to achieve. Adding a collision radius to colossi would be a great thing, making them more vulnerable to flanking because they can't stand on top of their own units anymore. Then Blizzard should rebalance Protoss with this in mind.
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Speaking to the issue of Colossi in PvT, they are exactly as strong as they need to be. Here's a thought process:
PvT Colossi:
- Without a robotics facility, it is simply too easy for P to die to Banshees.
- Once you have a Robo, it puts you way behind if you try to transition into HTs. Stargate play at that point is pointless because of stimmed marines.
- Bioball annihilates gateway units for cost unless you pour money into upgrades, which leaves you very vulnerable until 2/2 finishes, and stuck on 2 base for quite awhile. And even then, mass stimmed marauders just annihilate P.
- Without excellent forcefielding, T bioball overwhelms Protoss-- hence, Colossi need large range to engage beyond FFs.
- Vikings have range 9. Since Colossi can be hit by Air-to-Air, they are the most vulnerable ground unit in the game-- yet another reason they need long range.
- Colossi without massive gateway unit support simply turn to dust against stimmed marauders.
- Once medivacs are out, it is almost impossible to kill Terran bio without overwhelming AoE damage or trapping them at a bad angle with lots of chargelots.
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As a nooby, forgive what I am about to say. But what about using fungal or neural parasite when engaging a protoss army that uses colossus? If this became popular, P would have to focus fire all the infestors, allowing players to focus down the colossus, or fungal could be used to deal with the gateway units while the rest of the Z army plays with the colossus.
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I never did understand why Zergs never used this ability. I see mass Corruptors, but never once did I see green shit on my Colossi.
Terran doesn't have much of an excuse to complain about Colossi. High Viking counts are a pain in the ass (of course, Phoenix or Blink Stalker can solve this). Drop harass indirectly makes lower Colossus count, either by picking off pylons/robo bays/econ harass, etc.)
I don't see PvP improving any time soon though... -_-
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I'd say lower movement speed, or the health by a bit.
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On April 23 2011 05:18 Tatari wrote:
I never did understand why Zergs never used this ability. I see mass Corruptors, but never once did I see green shit on my Colossi.
Terran doesn't have much of an excuse to complain about Colossi. High Viking counts are a pain in the ass (of course, Phoenix or Blink Stalker can solve this). Drop harass indirectly makes lower Colossus count, either by picking off pylons/robo bays/econ harass, etc.)
I don't see PvP improving any time soon though... -_-
not just on the colossi but on their gateway units. Colossi are pretty weak from my experience alone without gateway units to tank damage.
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On April 23 2011 04:19 nodestar wrote:Show nested quote +It has cliffwalking. This annoys people because it makes a-moving even easier, but it isn't actually the root of any major problems--its not cliffwalking that makes them unbeatable in PvP or that makes the deathball so nasty in ZvP. Take cliffwalking out, and you make the deathball slightly less mobile, but its still a deathball and will kill you just as easily. I actually think this is part of the problem. Not the Cliff walking itself but a side effect of being able to cliff walk. Which is to walk over other Protoss units. I'm not aware of any other unit in the game that can do this. It gives the colossus a HUGE advantage in a max army vs max army situation. Because they basically have free movement within their own death ball. This is one of the key reasons that units that comprise a death ball work so well together. If it wasn't like this then Stalkers/Sentrys/Immortals would all work against the Colossus similar to how Zerglings work against Ultralisk. + Show Spoiler +
Using the Ultralisk as an example. It's a very powerful unit. But constant complaints poor in about how it doesn't mesh well with other Zerg units. Bumping into each other and getting caught behind Zerglings attacking nothing and only impeding the movement of your other units. It requires allot of control to make the most of it. It's by no means an "A-move" unit.
You never see Colossus fumbling around like retards in the back of a Toss Deathball. And it's not just because of their range. They melt the lings. Then take 2 steps up. Melt the Roaches. Then take 3 steps up and melt the Hydras. A Thor could never accomplish this. This is efficiency that no other unit in the game can match. It's a A-move and forget unit. Toss players them selves can attest to this just by comparing them[Colossus] to High Templar. Once again. It's not the range that allows them to do this. It's stepping over their own units. If Colossus behaved like normal units then they would never reach Hydras so easily in a Max vs Max situation.
Colossus = range 9. Hydra = range 6. If Colossus start the battle in the back of the Deathball then once the lings are gone they are going to have a hard time getting past 40-50 supply worth of Stalkers and Sentrys to reach Hydras.
Another strength is being able to kite units through your own army. Colossus that start at the front of a death ball can engage enemies and then kite back into their Stalker/Sentry balls. Rather than being stuck in the front. To be fair this is probably why Colossus have the ability to walk over their own units in the first place. To balance out the fact that they can be hit by air. If they didn't they could easily get caught within their own ball while vikings rain hell on them from range 9. You'd be forced to either retreat with your entire army. Or tell your colossus to move back and your Stalkers to engage. Making a giant clusterfuck where units are bumping into each other and being totally ineffective at doing anything. If your a zerg player than you experience this often.(You see this less and less the older the game gets) And it's endlessly frustrating. Although good control is the solution. I wonder if our Protoss brethren should have to face the same frustrations and have to learn the same control? I'm not to judge.
If Colossus couldn't jive so well with the death ball then it might be more advantageous to use their cliff walking ability and operate them[Colossus] as flankers that work outside of the Deathball. You would think this was their original intention anyway given their speed. This of course opens them up and makes them vulnerable to air attacks. Good trade off or unfair? I'm not to judge.
Toss units just work very well. Which is where the A-move complaint comes from. Allot of Toss units operate at a very high effectiveness on auto pilot. Something you couldn't do with most Zerg and Terran units. Not that it's bad. And not thats it's broken. But if I had to change one thing about the Colossus it would be to make them collide with their own units.
I really like the points brought up in the post. You're completely right, if the colossus wasn't able to just chill inside the rest of the army at all times, they would be easier to snipe and more difficult for the protoss to control. The whole army would be significantly more spread out, which has really interesting implications for the "death ball" gameplay as a whole. I'm curious whether it's realistically possible to keep the cliff walk while being able to collide with the rest of the army, it might take some fancy code, I'm not sure.
I think another reason the colossus is so prevalent is that the protoss doesn't really have many other options. The High Templar certainly isn't a bad unit, the colossus is just significantly better right now. The Khaydarin Amulet nerf was well-placed, if the unit had a build time the upgrade would make sense, but being able to storm anywhere there's a pylon on command is kinda ridiculous. I'm curious what effect buffing Psionic Storm damage might have, maybe increasing its damage against armored. It was always pretty damn good against marines, zerglings, and hydralisks, but never really felt all that strong against roaches and marauders.
Something else that might be worth toying with deathball-wise would be making void rays massive so that corruptors are able to deal with them more easily. I wouldn't want to make corruptors the "counter" to colossus / void ray deathballs though. The last thing the game needs is logic like "if the protoss is making colossus and void rays, just make corruptors and a-move!"
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On April 23 2011 05:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
As a nooby, forgive what I am about to say. But what about using fungal or neural parasite when engaging a protoss army that uses colossus? If this became popular, P would have to focus fire all the infestors, allowing players to focus down the colossus, or fungal could be used to deal with the gateway units while the rest of the Z army plays with the colossus.
As protoss usualy get Blink ( because they need the Council for +2 attack anyway ), blinking a small part of your stalker ball to snipe Infestors, and even use your Non-NP colossi to do the same make the use of NP quite hard against a protoss aware of it.
And fungal is use for the stalker ball most of the time. One fungal is 48 damage, it would take 8 fungal to kill a colossi.
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On April 23 2011 05:18 Tatari wrote:I never did understand why Zergs never used this ability. I see mass Corruptors, but never once did I see green shit on my Colossi. Terran doesn't have much of an excuse to complain about Colossi. High Viking counts are a pain in the ass (of course, Phoenix or Blink Stalker can solve this). Drop harass indirectly makes lower Colossus count, either by picking off pylons/robo bays/econ harass, etc.) I don't see PvP improving any time soon though... -_-
Contaminate is the overseer ability that halts production. Corruptors have Corruption, which just makes things take extra damage. Eh, easy mistake to make.
In response to the quote inside: Really? You think Overseers is the answer to colossus? Like are you being serious? Just rudimentary anti-air is all people need to prevent contaminate. Or hell just get another robo. I don't see it working after maybe two contaminates.
I think 100% of the Colossus problem is the speed. Protoss has a way more frightening deathball than Terran and yet it moves way faster (as Terran has to leapfrog Tanks and has slow Thors). It would also make it easier to punish bad micro from the Protoss if the Colossi are lagging behind.
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I think when considering the colossi and other units we need to ask if it 'fun balanced' first before 'game balanced'...if that makes sense. The colossi despite it's cool look is a very boring unit. It's range and ability to walk over everything means it is essentially a simple attack move unit with no room for creativity or proper reward for great positioning like what we had with the reaver.
In fact there is a serious amount of overlap with the functionality of the carrier and the colossi...both go pretty much where they want to go...both vulnerable to AA but not really melee units...both really require flying AA units to take them down...both attack multiple targets at once...both have great range...and both require proper ground escorts (like stalkers). Blizzard constantly talked about not creating overlap between units but they messed up here... Frankly I wouldn't mind Blizzard to 'fun balance' the game get rid of the colossi and for AOE buff the carrier, bring back khydarian amulet and yes bring back the reaver. Great units have great weaknesses and require positional play instead of simple attack moving. The reaver with it's slow speed but massive damage was and can be a very fun unit for SC2 like it was in SC1.
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best tweak for the colo is to allow the attack of the colo able to be microed from taking damage.
atm it's not possible to micro out of the attack, once its shot it already done the damage. Kinda like how we can dodge lurker shots in BW.
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Leave the collosus alone and make neural parasite better. Then when the next expansion comes out give protoss a mind control spell as well. This will encourage strategies that use a larger number of weaker units instead of getting 5+ collosus.
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On April 23 2011 05:16 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
As a nooby, forgive what I am about to say. But what about using fungal or neural parasite when engaging a protoss army that uses colossus? If this became popular, P would have to focus fire all the infestors, allowing players to focus down the colossus, or fungal could be used to deal with the gateway units while the rest of the Z army plays with the colossus.
It can work but it's extremely risky as the infestors have 90hp and thus die pretty much instantly when targeted and you don't even need to "focus fire" them to splat them in 3 seconds...
And they cost 150 gas, which is allot for zerg considering their mechanics and racial strengths/weaknesses (weak units en masse) and you can get like 5 roaches instead of 1 infestor believe me gas is just that important for zerg late game.
That said though, in smaller engagements they can work, but I've no issue with that, it's the max/near max ball of death that is the issue. In those balls, infestors are dead instantly despite the range of NP.
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I'm surprise this thread can last for 5 pages and still no mod ban it.
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On April 23 2011 05:26 Fungal Growth wrote:
I think when considering the colossi and other units we need to ask if it 'fun balanced' first before 'game balanced'...if that makes sense. The colossi despite it's cool look is a very boring unit. It's range and ability to walk over everything means it is essentially a simple attack move unit with no room for creativity or proper reward for great positioning like what we had with the reaver.
In fact there is a serious amount of overlap with the functionality of the carrier and the colossi...both go pretty much where they want to go...both vulnerable to AA but not really melee units...both really require flying AA units to take them down...both attack multiple targets at once...both have great range...and both require proper ground escorts (like stalkers). Blizzard constantly talked about not creating overlap between units but they messed up here... Frankly I wouldn't mind Blizzard to 'fun balance' the game get rid of the colossi and for AOE buff the carrier, bring back khydarian amulet and yes bring back the reaver. Great units have great weaknesses and require positional play instead of simple attack moving. The reaver with it's slow speed but massive damage was and can be a very fun unit for SC2 like it was in SC1.
Pretty much this. In SC, they made the game fun first before they balanced it in BW. SC2 tried to be completely balanced right from the start of the beta, so it has a stable of boring units whose only purpose is to hard counter some other unit. Bonus negative points in that many of these units are of the a-move variety as well.
That's why I'm really against giving units like corruptors extra damage against colossus. The last thing we need to counter a boring, a-move unit is to build a boring, a-move unit to hard counter it. Best case scenario is changes in abilities so that micro, multitasking and positional play determine the victor, not just blind a-moving.
The overlap for me is actually between the colossus and high templars. Reavers in BW were awesome in small scale skirmishes but less effective in large ones. Once armies get bigger, pros normally switch to templars. The colossus, being a deathball unit, really functions the same way templars do.
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EPT
