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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
I'm aware, that initially P is forced to go robo for the observer, and getting templar out before stim/medivacs arrive leaves a timing vulnerability. Also immortals should have longer range (or a range upgrade), or marauders should have shorter range. I guess EMP is probably the reason that composition doesn't see as much use. | ||
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Veritassong
Canada393 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:14 DuneBug wrote: It's not really an essential unit... gateway/Immortal templar can substitute for the colossus in virtually every scenario. It's less mobile but ironically has more harassment potential because of the templar. I'm aware, that initially P is forced to go robo for the observer, and getting templar out before stim/medivacs arrive leaves a timing vulnerability. Also immortals should have longer range (or a range upgrade), or marauders should have shorter range. I guess EMP is probably the reason that composition doesn't see as much use. im sorry, col is ESSENTIAL. Immortal is fucking useless vs even units that it counters (roaches and marauders) with its shitty range, slow attack and most important LONG build time. Not mentioning that it gets RAPED by EMP. Templar? LOL ... have u every faced a zerg who goes mass roaches and went templar? i always went templar tech before patch vs zerg, and storming burrowed roaches is a joke. | ||
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Protein
United States132 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:37 GinDo wrote: The Collosi sadly is the only unit holding Toss together at the moment, without them they would fall apart, although i personally feel it may be too good. Blizzard says that its weakness to air makes it balanced, but that is just stupid thinking. Poor Zerg must make corrupter that insta die and are useless for anything else. And Toss has no strong Air to Air other then the Carrier that can get in range and kill Collosi cost effectively. Hence the Collosi wars.Luckly Terrans have vikings. Making Corruptors to fight collosi is as if terran only had banshees to kill collosi, except the Banshees are armored, do less damage, and can't cloak. Or like making Phoenixes that are armored and don't have gravity lift. Both Toss and Terran know how those units are innefective due to their range, except Zergs suffer more so because Corruptors are armored and take full damage from Stalkers and Voids. Collosi are the only splash unit that really don't have a true draw back. Tanks are immobile, Hellions only kill light units and have low HP, Banlings are suicide units with low HP. ultras are bulky and melee. Thors are slow and bulky. Each splash unit has a draw back, which makes massing them bad. Collosi are mobile, have sick range, and have good hp. And its only true weakness is only taken advantage by the viking due to its range. Collosi need a drawback that makes massing them in high numbers less effective. TLDR: 1)Protoss need collosi. Without collosi they would fall apart. 2)Only Terran can capitalize on Collosi weakenss, while Zerg and Toss can't 3) Every Splash unit in the game have a fatal flaw except the collosi. Read above for a description. 4) Collosi need a drawback that makes massing them in high numbers less effective. You're obviously incredibly biased. The drawbacks to colossi include a) being able to be hit by air b) not being able to hit air. If anything, I would argue that the Thor had no drawbacks (although vs P it does now due to energy being back). Besides that, having a very strong single target attack to ground and raping anything in the air is what makes them maskable. Colossi are not massable - they are a support unit. Thors are a standalone unit. Now granted, Thors can be taken out by a loot of little units (in theory... although in practise this turns out not to be the case once they attain critical mass). However that is negated by the synergy between the terran cheap units (blue flame hellion with thors or marines/vikings with siege tanks. TL;DR 1)Colossi do have a draw back. Not being able to hit air and being very vulnerable to anti air as well as anti armored and anti ground units is a drawback considering their cost. 2) I could easily argue that the other units you mentioned don't have a drawback due to the easy access to units that synergies well with them aka tanks/marine/viking combo or hellion/thor combo. 3) And thors barely have a drawback. The only reason mass thor hasn't been explored more is because other terran strategies are equally as potent. P.S. Everyone seems to complain about the colossus while acknowledging that late game, Protoss T1 units get raped by T1 terran and T1 Zerg. It's very difficult to take a discussion about the colossus seriously when it's one of the only ways we can survive to the powerful combination of the other races. The fact is, our ranged dps needs to come from somewhere as stalkers are not sufficient in that domain (as their dps is traded off for mobility). | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
Best bet is to nerf thermal lance range. As the insane range is what makes colossi boring and micro-less. However, if thermal lance gets nerfed, toss needs something in return to deal with mass immortal/roach. The answer is simple...bring back KA for HT's and buff immortals. The immortal should have like a 10-15 second decrease in build time for starters. Roughly a minute an immortal doesn't cut it vs roach spam. Then the immortal has to have a range increase. Simple put in big armies it lags behind the stalkers because it is slower then them, but then in battle it squanders almost all its DPS because it can't shoot over the stalkers heads. They definitely need +1 in range. The nice thing about buffing the immortal is that there is very little chance that it creates imbalances as it is a rarely used unit and just so expensive. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
I would love to have the Reaver back instead. That won't happen of course. Anyhow the collosus is a disgusting, boring and way too user-friendly unit in my opinion. Here's to hoping that Heart of the Swarm brings some new interesting dynamics and units to the field, like the phoenix. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:53 Protein wrote: You're obviously incredibly biased. The drawbacks to colossi include a) being able to be hit by air b) not being able to hit air. If anything, I would argue that the Thor had no drawbacks (although vs P it does now due to energy being back). Besides that, having a very strong single target attack to ground and raping anything in the air is what makes them maskable. Colossi are not massable - they are a support unit. Thors are a standalone unit. Lol what league are you in? Colossus are a far better unit than Thors. The only use Thors have at the moment is countering light air units. Outside of that, their anti-air attack is laughable (less DPS than a stimmed marine) , and then high ground dps is almost useless considering that they lose cost for cost to a lot of units. Colossus not only have a far wider use that Thors but also are much more effective for their high cost. Massing Thors is a terrible idea that will lose to almost any cheaper composition, like mass ling, roach, or zealot. Thors are a support unit just like Colossus, but one that is much less efficient and has less uses, which is why you mainly only see it versus Zerg to counter Mutas. Also, being able to be hit by air is not a weakness. That's like saying that because tanks have no air attack, they are "weak". A true weakness is one that makes a unit difficult to use to its highest potential, like low mobility, which the Colossus lack. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
The way protoss is designed right now they either need very supply-efficient units or powerful AoE to survive. Nerfing the colossus is a huge blow to both of those things. So though I dont like the unit so much, its not as simple as "this units OP so nerf it"... changing the colossus to any great extent would require additional re-working of other units or the race in general | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On May 28 2011 05:28 Jayrod wrote: + Show Spoiler + Geez talk about kicking a race while they're down. I guess I don't understand the timing of this thread bump as protoss currently getting shit on by everyone since mid-April. This is like if people were bumping a "roach is too cost effective" type thread two months ago when zerg was figuring out the vs. Protoss matchup. The way protoss is designed right now they either need very supply-efficient units or powerful AoE to survive. Nerfing the colossus is a huge blow to both of those things. So though I dont like the unit so much, its not as simple as "this units OP so nerf it"... changing the colossus to any great extent would require additional re-working of other units or the race in general Nobody said Protoss don't need powerful AOE. The problem with Colossus is that they are really stupid and dull units that require absolutely no control to use efficiently and are still very powerful at the same time. If Colossus got nerfed on the mobility side (perhaps with even something like a siege/unsiege mechanic) they would still do powerful AOE, but have to be managed a lot better to achieve the same results they do now. TLDR: Protoss do need AOE but Colossus is really badly designed ATM. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On May 28 2011 06:07 Scila wrote: Nobody said Protoss don't need powerful AOE. The problem with Colossus is that they are really stupid and dull units that require absolutely no control to use efficiently and are still very powerful at the same time. If Colossus got nerfed on the mobility side (perhaps with even something like a siege/unsiege mechanic) they would still do powerful AOE, but have to be managed a lot better to achieve the same results they do now. TLDR: Protoss do need AOE but Colossus is really badly designed ATM. I agree with your overall point that they are poorly designed, but disagree that they require no control. Less than a seige tank? Yes. If you have played this game at a reasonably high level (masters and above), especially as protoss, you would know how difficult they can be to keep alive against good opponents who understand positioning. When your opponent actually understands the point of a concave and you see how weak they can get vs. good spread, flanking vikings, etc... A protoss army is difficult to properly manage, but you see players get away with wins not even properly managing their army because bad terrans and zergs just try a-move as well. In other words, protoss players who don't micro their armies SHOULD be losing the fights.. the times that they dont its because their opponent is either worse or did the same thing with a comp that wont allow un-micro'd fighting. i would say it would make the most sense, if you're going to have a seige/unseige type mechanic.. to have the unseiged version do less damage than current colossus or have less range and have the seiged version do significantly more damage than the current colossus. To require additional micro for same result on a race that already has the lowest overall win % at high levels (see the bajillion threads posted a few weeks ago about it) is a step in the wrong direction. Id rather see the unit completely removed than adding additional things protoss "must do" at the very start of the fight... No other race really has that "must do" things like forcefield where one slip up can cost you the game. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On topic now, I do feel there is a problem with this unit. Colossi and force fields are too dominant in PvX matchups, this is because they have to compensate for the lack of ability of gateway units to deal with marine/marauder and ling/roach(hydra). Being forced to always use those force fields while playing protoss is not fun, it feels like you are a weak coward blocking the enemies. It's also not fun for the opponent for whom it becomes impossible to micro in some cases.*** (this also applies to concussive shells and fungal). Playing protoss early game often feels like stalling until you can get those colossus. When you get them it feels like they are disposable batteries, for a short amount of time they overpower your army, but when they are depleted (killed by vikings or other units), they are useless and you can't make more (because the vikings/corruptors the opponent has instantly kill the newly made colossi). Also the power you can get out of it by microing is minimal, it's just a dumb unit that does all the damage and the rest of your army basically functions as a meatshield, and it makes it extremely hard for the opponent to ever engage. There's a reason for this huge use of the colossus, going templar first has a lot more risk to it, and protoss has no real solid T2. Right now as it is, units like the immortal are very situational, it's high build time, low range and position in the robo bay give you no reason at all to build more than one in most cases, if you build any immortals at all. It's simply infinitely better to rush to T3 colossus, you need to get your observer out anyway so you get the robo. This is because the immortal was initially a unit that could be warped in, and was dumped in the robo bay later. To finish this rant, I feel like colossus, FF and CS are bad for the game and need to be changed (changed / replaced with units that are designed in a better way + changes to other units) . Protoss should maybe get another unit unlocked at the gateway when they have a twilight council up, and immortals need to get a significantly lower build time and a bigger range (they can't fire except if you put them up front, if you do this marines or lings focus fire them and they die in seconds). It helped the phoenix, it can help the immortal. Yes that's a huge change in the game, but it's totally not intended to make the race overpowered, it's just to improve the general quality of games and give toss more (T2) options. More options does not mean overpowered or a lot stronger. This isn't something blizzard is just going to do, but maybe a part of it (hopefully all of it) in the future, for example with the expansions. *** One could argue that "micro" to avoid force fields or concussive or a similar ability is in fact micro, and while this is true it is an exceptionally boring form of micro that feels like it does not contribute, only that it prevents losses. Actually, usually it is not possible to "micro" to avoid FF and CS at all, except if you don't attack until you're maxed out (this means less small engagements where micro is more important == a more boring game, for example look at how exciting micro wars in PvP is where there are no sentries, and imagine this being possible in PvZ and PvT. It only requires a buff to gateway units and changes to FF and CS). | ||
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