EPTEvaluating the Colossus - Page 3
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:35 WhiteDog wrote: If you think spanishiwa think it is possible to go for T3 units with only 2 bases, then you are a prothete or an ideologue. Colossus is tier 3, so why can't zerg rush to tier 3 too? You are too focused on what the zerg image is currently. I'm not saying a build is viable, but that there is potential everywhere to change from how all players currently play. | ||
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Antedelerium
United States224 Posts
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:41 DeltruS wrote: Colossus is tier 3, so why can't zerg rush to tier 3 too? You are too focused on what the zerg image is currently. I'm not saying a build is viable, but that there is potential everywhere to change from how all players currently play. Do you understand that getting zerg T3 requires 2x time than T3 of toss even if you rushing for it? And even if you get T3, ultras for example can be hard countered with simple zealot/immortal combo. Broodloords are harder to deal with but they are useless if zerg does not have good enough ground army to support that. | ||
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Kaz04
United States53 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:28 lilky wrote: "and even non-counter units like marines and hydras could get in a shot or two before being brought down" Defintion of counter: being able to kill an enemy unit COST-EFFECTIVELY in a solo battle Obviously, you never saw the game TLO vs Sypherfeast, where the protoss lost about 6 colossi to the same 8 marines.... On a more serious note... There is no problem with the colossus; the real problem lies in the fact that the starcraft 2 community is unwilling to expand their perspectives and stubbornly clinging on to myth that colossi are "OP". When it was discovered that 5 banelings could wipe out a group of 60 marines, did everyone complain that banelings were OP? No. They learned how to split their marines and use tanks to take out the banelings from a long distance. Similarly, zerg players should learn to adapt to the playstyles that their enemies are developing. It doesn't take a genius to realize that once the colossi in an army go down, a protoss gateway army is completely neutered and immediately dies to any sort of roach/hydra or marine/marauder composition. And where are the colossi? ALWAYS IN THE BACK. So wouldnt it make sense to send a group of units to flank and snipe the colo down? When i play zerg, i always hotkey a group of 15 or so roaches and have them hidden to the side. When the protoss attacks, i run in and 1-shot every colossus. Instant win. Stop complaining about balance and simply adapt to the situation. Additionally, all three races have an "ultimate" ground unit. Colossus, Thor, Ultralisk. By far, the colossus is the most used in all three matchups. But lets take a look at each unit's strengths and weaknesses: 1. Colossi have long range, are mobile, and do medium damage (15x2 for colossi, 30x2 for thors, 15 or 20 for ultralisks) but DO SPLASH DAMAGE. This is key. 2. Thors do extremely large amounts of damage at an extremely high rate of fire, but are immobile and vulnerable to lots of little units. They can only target a single unit. 3. Ultralisks move at a decent speed but have terrible pathing, do mediocre damage, and has no range. At least it has splash and a very high health count. Excellent for tanking but not much else. So from this, we can see that colossi are designed to kill masses of little units because of its splash and long range. Thors are heavy artillery designed to take out buildings or lay down some heavy dps during battles, especially for HITTING HIGH-HITPOINT UNITS (the 250 mm cannon ability also emphasizes this, since it can 1-shot a colossus and almost 1-shot an ultralisk). The ultralisk is desgined to tank damage and be scary. (imo the ultra needs a buff, but thats a different story). POINT BEING: knowing FULL WELL that the colossus counters masses of small units, zerg players are doing what exactly? MAKING MASSES OF SMALL UNITS. And then they complain that colossi are overpowered. Try using both halves of your brain, please. Stop blaming your own mediocre play on an "imbalanced" unit. Use an ultralisk. Use an infestor. Use a brood lord. Try different tactics (ie flank and snipe colossi instead of running your tightly clumped ball into a bunch of units designed to take out tightly clumped units) And if you so dearly want a nerf to the colossi, fine. But fix the SEVERELY underpowered gateway units first. Any gateway unit composition gets ripped to shreds by marines/marauder or roaches or hydras. At least someone has some common friggen sense... There are a lot of options for zerg that have never been explored... Why are mutas used so little vs P? The threat of them being out means that it is hard for the toss to move out... the death BALL is also only effective in a BALL... seperately they are near worthless... Mondi-esque play would help split armies and allow the zerg to fight in smaller numbers where they can deal with numbers less then the critical mass... Its funny that some things were mentioned like reducing the range of collosus which would make flanking do near nothing... If people thought of collosus more like tanks in TvZ and used mutas/corruptors to flank then there would be way less crying... They cry that toss is broken yet only do the same damn thing that doesnt work... you deserve to lose if your not willing to adapt | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:46 Alpina wrote: Do you understand that getting zerg T3 requires 2x time than T3 of toss even if you rushing for it? And even if you get T3, ultras for example can be hard countered with simple zealot/immortal combo. Broodloords are harder to deal with but they are useless if zerg does not have good enough ground army to support that. So you are saying that all protoss will expect the zerg to do this build and counter it perfectly? What if the zerg gets banelings to counter the zealots and lings to counter the immortals? They should already have melee upgrades and banelings with their unit composition anyways. | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
We're already seeing players develop builds that are colosus-free + Show Spoiler + oGsMC displayed a powerful PvZ with amazing utilization of sentries In PvT, bio balls can be disrupted by Colosi, but various other builds can be equally as effective (I personally do a chargelot-immortal build on 3 base while getting storm with the 4th base, storm is very viable in my opinion) And in PvP... colosi aren't actually required. Yes, it might be terribly difficult, but if you can utilize blink and charge, colosus balls melt. + Show Spoiler + This is a game from coLSUGGY where he exemplifies this (2 part video) | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:50 DeltruS wrote: So you are saying that all protoss will expect the zerg to do this build and counter it perfectly? What if the zerg gets banelings to counter the zealots and lings to counter the immortals? They should already have melee upgrades and banelings with their unit composition anyways. Get out of your dream, Ultra is good but situationnal, you don't go for ultra, you go for something, then tech switch to ultras. They need upgrades, they need tech. You can have a decent colossi army at 12-14 min, while you have your first ultra at 14-16 with 1-1 at most (and that's really agressiv hive while going for colossus at 12 is perfectly safe). | ||
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Magni
Canada40 Posts
As Zerg I think people are too obsessed with being cost effective vs. toss. Sure Protoss can get Colossus quickly but they can't get many before zerg can get way more corruptors. If protoss gets a max army of Colossus Stalker Voidray, you need about 20 corruptors to suicide in and kill the Colossus - after that their entire army gets countered by Hydra-ling. Who cares if tons of your corruptors die, they don't need to kill the voids - Hydras do a better job anyways. With a proper macro lead (that Zerg should have anyways) and a good engagement (as far from your main as possible) the Colossus-Voidray deathball isn't really as threatening as people make it out to be, they just don't have the experience or accept the strategy that they need to employ to defeat it. Now, Collossus-Carrier-Stalker-High Templar - there's a composition to complain about. Overall, while the Colossus may not add the best depth to the gameplay, I don't think it's imbalanced in anyway, rather players need to accept that the strategy to dealing with it is not your conventional Roach/Hydra or MMM. You need to include strategies like aggressive tech switching (zerg) and higher tech units (terran) instead of building primarily units that the Colossus is good against and expect to win. | ||
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LostDevil
Fiji283 Posts
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
Same group of whiners band up together and find something else to cry about: Collossus. Here's a tip that will help you overcome your Collossus problems AND become a better player overall: Try new strategies instead of same cookie cutter stuff. It's what P players had to do thanks to your previous complaints. | ||
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Absolutionn
United States512 Posts
Plus this would also make protoss that choose to go colossus forced to have an even less mobile army. | ||
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G3CKO
Canada1430 Posts
In Brood War PvZ, once the ultimate Protoss battle ball is reached, there is essentially nothing a Zerg can do to take it down. Throw in ultras, cracklings, and even high level defiler play, if you play head on fight against the Protoss battle ball you can't beat it no matter what. I can show some progamer level games of this. The point is to not let the Protoss reach that battle ball. Not a lot of Zergs are realizing that you must try to keep the Protoss reach that battle ball in SC2. If more zergs have that kind of mentality, I could see a huge meta shift in ZvP and PvZ, | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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dave333
United States915 Posts
If we fix warpgates/gateways, like make warpgates make units slower than gateways for example, we fix a whole host of problems. 1. No more 4 gate pvp spam. If warpgates take longer to make units, there's an actual and real defender's advantage. This obviously opens a lot of opportunities. 2. You can buff gateway units a bit, easing the early game TvP issues. 3. Zerg has more options in the early game because now warpgate rushes are more easily scouted and the defender's advantage exists. Zerg can do more options besides roaches for early warpgate defense and having to use ling/bling/infestor for lategame deathball killing. Mutas are no longer suicides, and it can be balanced by stronger stalkers for example. Warpgates are inherently not very RTSy. An essential part of RTS is defender's advantage. Without giving gateways some advantage to warpgates, there's a clear and fundamental issue with this game. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:58 Techno wrote: I don't agree with this. I think lowering Colossus HP or lowering the range would definitely help to alleviate alot of what's wrong with ZvP. I definitely feel like Colossus are too powerful in at least PvZ. No, lowering the range on seige unit is probolly a bad idea..... And also colossi are fine as long as you can manage your Corrupter count or use your fungals well... Just watch sheths stream as an example of this..... Sheth still says zvp is his favorite match up... and he still wins almost all of his games. Does this reflect balance no... can we comment on balance unless we are pro... Probably not the best idea. Should balance be discussed until every possibility is tried, probably not.. Even now there are new styles of zerg that are emerging that are doing really well vs p... does this reflect balance no. | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
On April 23 2011 03:08 Absolutionn wrote: Hmm I like you Idea of lowering the health of colossus, but I would actually prefer if they made it half the speed, half the attack speed, but doubled the dmg. So essentially it would do the same damage except it would require much more setup and positional control, this way players could still utilize it well in fights, just that it would take more skill than just a-moving it in a fight. Plus this would also make protoss that choose to go colossus forced to have an even less mobile army. That would be a buff to Collossus. And that's how it originally was anyway before Blizzard nerfed them by reducing damage and increasing attack speed. Nerf because Collossus gets first hit off thus with high enough damage you kill units without even getting hit back. | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
It makes me really miss the reaver. | ||
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