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Tyree
1508 Posts
At one point Forcefields is simply not enough, and a new crutch is needed: The Collossi. No race in BW depended so much on 1 unit, but Protoss in SC2 do depend on them. So much so, that if you outright removed Templar tech from the game, few people would even raise an eyebrow. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Tweak unit cost. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:55 DeltruS wrote: It is important for races to have overpowered units. Otherwise pro players wont be as encouraged to find new styles of play. Blizzard is planning for balance changes next patch (namely gateway changes) so we have to wait and see how the metagame shifts. For example, some unexpected result from the fungal growth change:
Your list of examples make absolutely no sense what so ever. Infestors need burrow for burrowing to burrow harass so all of a sudden baneling mines are more viable? What? Baneling mines haven't changed what so ever. They will always be hit or miss. Always be worthwhile if opponent doesn't have obs/scans/raven but useless after they do. Infestors have always been gas heavy. Infestor/ling/bling has been a strat in ZvT since long before fungal change. Fungal change doesn't all of a sudden give you more money. This was always a dynamic of infestor heavy play. Infestation pit has never been the hindrance of hive tech. It's always the high eco required to get hive units out while maintaining an army to protect them and not die while getting them. Just because you get an earlier infestation pit because you want infestors doesn't mean you can support hive tech. In fact fungal is worse for stalling than it used to be so I think hive got hit more than it got helped Anyway this topic is rather silly. I see no point in discussion balance changes. The unit is boring and not dynamic but is needed within the current structure of the race. The structure won't change within an expansion. | ||
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Hollis
United States505 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:06 Tyree wrote: Protoss has the weakest early game units in the game, it is required for them to create superficial terrain (Forcefields) just to have a chance at survival against early pressure from Terran or Zerg. At one point Forcefields is simply not enough, and a new crutch is needed: The Collossi. No race in BW depended so much on 1 unit, but Protoss in SC2 do depend on them. So much so, that if you outright removed Templar tech from the game, few people would even raise an eyebrow. I don't buy the "weak t1 units" idea, unless you're talking only about vs Terran t1, in which case everything is weak. It must be, since terrans mass their T1 units all the way through the entire game, every game, in every matchup. Vs Zerg, Protoss t1 is extremely strong - especially considering that Blink and Charge can come into the game later making lots and stalkers overwhelmingly potent. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
On April 23 2011 01:49 Hollis wrote: Pvz these days is so boring: sit, vigilantly (and easily) defend any foolhardy aggression, mass deathball, a-move, win. Removing the colossi as a viable strategy in pvz opens up whole worlds of interesting strategies and positioning and metagaming and stuff. THE TRUTH!!!!!! Although, it seems to me that its not just PvZ anymore its PvX. Everytime I play a protoss, i groan, because I know im going to be bored. Collosi are too nooby of a unit too. They should be more micro intensive if theyre going to be that good. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Contaminate There. There is your fucking lower Colossus count. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:25 branflakes14 wrote: You want to lower your opponent's Colossus count? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Contaminate There. There is your fucking lower Colossus count. Are you a troll or just Day9 in disguise ? | ||
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lilky
United States131 Posts
Defintion of counter: being able to kill an enemy unit COST-EFFECTIVELY in a solo battle Obviously, you never saw the game TLO vs Sypherfeast, where the protoss lost about 6 colossi to the same 8 marines.... On a more serious note... There is no problem with the colossus; the real problem lies in the fact that the starcraft 2 community is unwilling to expand their perspectives and stubbornly clinging on to myth that colossi are "OP". When it was discovered that 5 banelings could wipe out a group of 60 marines, did everyone complain that banelings were OP? No. They learned how to split their marines and use tanks to take out the banelings from a long distance. Similarly, zerg players should learn to adapt to the playstyles that their enemies are developing. It doesn't take a genius to realize that once the colossi in an army go down, a protoss gateway army is completely neutered and immediately dies to any sort of roach/hydra or marine/marauder composition. And where are the colossi? ALWAYS IN THE BACK. So wouldnt it make sense to send a group of units to flank and snipe the colo down? When i play zerg, i always hotkey a group of 15 or so roaches and have them hidden to the side. When the protoss attacks, i run in and 1-shot every colossus. Instant win. Stop complaining about balance and simply adapt to the situation. Additionally, all three races have an "ultimate" ground unit. Colossus, Thor, Ultralisk. By far, the colossus is the most used in all three matchups. But lets take a look at each unit's strengths and weaknesses: 1. Colossi have long range, are mobile, and do medium damage (15x2 for colossi, 30x2 for thors, 15 or 20 for ultralisks) but DO SPLASH DAMAGE. This is key. 2. Thors do extremely large amounts of damage at an extremely high rate of fire, but are immobile and vulnerable to lots of little units. They can only target a single unit. 3. Ultralisks move at a decent speed but have terrible pathing, do mediocre damage, and has no range. At least it has splash and a very high health count. Excellent for tanking but not much else. So from this, we can see that colossi are designed to kill masses of little units because of its splash and long range. Thors are heavy artillery designed to take out buildings or lay down some heavy dps during battles, especially for HITTING HIGH-HITPOINT UNITS (the 250 mm cannon ability also emphasizes this, since it can 1-shot a colossus and almost 1-shot an ultralisk). The ultralisk is desgined to tank damage and be scary. (imo the ultra needs a buff, but thats a different story). POINT BEING: knowing FULL WELL that the colossus counters masses of small units, zerg players are doing what exactly? MAKING MASSES OF SMALL UNITS. And then they complain that colossi are overpowered. Try using both halves of your brain, please. Stop blaming your own mediocre play on an "imbalanced" unit. Use an ultralisk. Use an infestor. Use a brood lord. Try different tactics (ie flank and snipe colossi instead of running your tightly clumped ball into a bunch of units designed to take out tightly clumped units) And if you so dearly want a nerf to the colossi, fine. But fix the SEVERELY underpowered gateway units first. Any gateway unit composition gets ripped to shreds by marines/marauder or roaches or hydras. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:10 Numy wrote: Your list of examples make absolutely no sense what so ever. Infestors need burrow for burrowing to burrow harass so all of a sudden baneling mines are more viable? What? Baneling mines haven't changed what so ever. They will always be hit or miss. Always be worthwhile if opponent doesn't have obs/scans/raven but useless after they do. Infestors have always been gas heavy. Infestor/ling/bling has been a strat in ZvT since long before fungal change. Fungal change doesn't all of a sudden give you more money. This was always a dynamic of infestor heavy play. Infestation pit has never been the hindrance of hive tech. It's always the high eco required to get hive units out while maintaining an army to protect them and not die while getting them. Just because you get an earlier infestation pit because you want infestors doesn't mean you can support hive tech. In fact fungal is worse for stalling than it used to be so I think hive got hit more than it got helped Anyway this topic is rather silly. I see no point in discussion balance changes. The unit is boring and not dynamic but is needed within the current structure of the race. The structure won't change within an expansion. You are quite wrong with all of your points. Hive doesn't need a high economy, as seen from Spanishiwa's 2 base hive play. Certain builds are not viable due to timings where the build just dies. Simple changes can allow for amazing shifts in strategies. Lings are used more in conjunction with infestors because there is no gas for other units. Usually they can't be used because they use up all the minerals while leaving behind too much gas, which isn't optimal. Burrow is a really good upgrade, but too situational to get for most players. If there are more reasons to get it, every use of burrow is less of a risk. My point is that you are wrong, and we cannot simply say that the colossus will remain OP with the small, non colossus changes that are incoming. It is a strong unit, but players are still finding ways to combat them. What if this new ptr build suddenly allows for an extra expansion or for voidrays once the threat of 4 gates is gone? Bam, suddenly players have more room to counter unit compositions too focused on one unit. | ||
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Mangemongen
Sweden125 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
POINT BEING: knowing FULL WELL that the colossus counters masses of small units, zerg players are doing what exactly? MAKING MASSES OF SMALL UNITS. And then they complain that colossi are overpowered. I'm kinda speechless to what you said actually. Your opinion of how zerg should deal with colossi is by not making zerg units so i guess ? | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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lilky
United States131 Posts
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Alver
United States177 Posts
stalkers really dont have any counter (in an army vs army setting) besides colossus though, immortals are by far the best option but with lower speed and range they only kind of counter them in a real game (not a move testing) and immortals arent even effective vs zealot/stalker/colossus which is the most popular comp. id say the core problem of pvp is immortal range is too short and colossus is too long. if immortals could counter what their supposed to counter you could see almost any units in pvp. if something has to be nerfed about colossus its definately their range. their not a very good unit without thermal lance. plus people hate the lack of micro centered around the colossus and i assure you it would increase quite a bit with lower range, their very easy to kill when their not 9 range away. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:33 Noocta wrote: I'm kinda speechless to what you said actually. Your opinion of how zerg should deal with colossi is by not making zerg units so i guess ? I think there's a very good reason why Blizzard made Ultralisks so big and didn't let them clip through units the way Colossi do. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:28 DeltruS wrote: You are quite wrong with all of your points. Hive doesn't need a high economy, as seen from Spanishiwa's 2 base hive play. Certain builds are not viable due to timings where the build just dies. Simple changes can allow for amazing shifts in strategies. Lings are use more in conjunction with infestors because there is no gas for other units. Usually they can't be used because they use up all the minerals while leaving behind too much gas, which isn't optimal. Burrow is a really good upgrade, but too situational to get for most players. If there are more reasons to get it, every use of burrow is less of a risk. My point is that you are wrong, and we cannot simply say that the colossus will remain OP with the small, non colossus changes that are incoming. It is a strong unit, but players are still finding ways to combat them. What if this new ptr build suddenly allows for an extra expansion or for voidrays once the threat of 4 gates is gone? Bam, suddenly players have more room to counter unit compositions too focused on one unit. If you think spanishiwa think it is possible to go for T3 units with only 2 bases, then you are a prothete or an ideologue. The main pb with the colossi is that it is a unit that is always 100% worth it. It is always dealing the same dmg, what so ever. It does not matter if you get the death ball in a small choke, it doesn't matter if you just flank the death ball or anything for the colossus because he is always in a position where he can deal his damage 100%. So the only way to deal with it is to outmuscle your opponent, You can't take it off guard, you just have to kill the colossi and take the damage while you do so (unless you pick one or two colossi without stalker, but that's not gonna happen if you play at a good enough lvl). The design is bad, and it needs to change. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
Even if it goes in the midgame with both players massing up colossi, they generally techswitch to mass voidray (I have done it a couple of times and my opponents did the same, and I have seen kiwikaki and minigun do it) or blink+charge. In the other matchups: with the templar nerf protoss rarely uses them nowadays, but that might change, especially when the protoss start using warp prism+ templars. | ||
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