On April 20 2011 02:04 Penecks wrote: Really? Cause I haven't seen a deathball containing carriers/mothership/hts in a while... though even a few HTs integrated into the standard collosus deathball will absolutely demolish a high food Z army in seconds.
Thats because those units arent even close to toss strongest. Templar or Colo are basically the same thing. HT are even worse now. You get 1 storm where colo gets unlimited shots. Pretty obvious you never played toss seriously if you throwing out the carrier/mothership as the strongest units
I suspect the limited number of Zergs placing in the higher end of tournaments is a conspiracy put into place to keep to a minimum the probability of there being a ZvZ semifinal and final.
It happened once a year ago or so in BW. We saw both the MSL and OSL feature ZvZ grand finals. It was pretty bad.
On April 19 2011 20:29 SweetenemY wrote: followed by a wave made of any other unitcombo that fits the outcome of the first fight best, but instead they get roach/hy/corrupter again.
well arguing the point that zerg players are kind of stupid is not a step in the right direction
As i said: i am not a good player. So i dont dare saying Zergplayers are stupid, i just want to understand, why they dont use their ability to switch their unit-composition/tech within seconds, in order to break a protoss army, that is lacking some kind of tech (templar), or lacking (enough) unit-producing structures to react accordingly in time(3+ stargates/robos).
Why dont they kill mainly the collosi in the first engagement and then, when the Protoss reinforces only stalker to go funking kill the Zerg, switch their army-composition, that is able to kill the stalker ball.
No offense anywhere, just the same i have written before, so thanks for grabbing a line of my post, just to blame me have the wrong tone ...
and the switch will go from which combo to which?from roach/hydra/corruptor to ling/bling/infestor?so i have to build all tech buildings and research all technologies while getting the extremely "cheap" roach/hydra/corruptor combo to be able to switch?i really dont understand why everyone thinks zerg can switch so easily as they need a lot of different structures and most of all lots of upgrades and enough time to research (the switch to ling/bling/infestor is 450/450 for their upgrades alone and you will also want to have OL upgrades for another 300/300)
its also very doubtful that a good protoss player would go forward with nothing but stalkers; in a realistic scenario all you can add immediately are speedlings
and yes - Zergs have the hardest time to switch tech ... -.-
btw - u can stockpile up to 19 larvae on one hatch - should be easy to get 200/200 if u have 2 Marcohatches and queens in your main (assuming you are on 4 bases)
so if u have 74drones and 6 queens u can have 114 suppply worth of Zerglings, that beeing 228 Cracklings with some armorups within 30 seconds - good luck stalkers O_o
On April 20 2011 02:28 SweetenemY wrote: look up some posts i already wrote it
and yes - Zergs have the hardest time to switch tech ... -.-
btw - u can stockpile up to 19 larvae on one hatch - should be easy to get 200/200 if u have 2 Marcohatches and queens in your main (assuming you are on 4 bases)
so if u have 74drones and 6 queens u can have 114 suppply worth of Zerglings, that beeing 228 Cracklings with some armorups within 30 seconds - good luck stalkers O_o
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. And the protoss would actually use blink micro, and not engage somewhere where the ball can get entirely engulfed in lings. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
On April 20 2011 02:28 SweetenemY wrote: look up some posts i already wrote it
and yes - Zergs have the hardest time to switch tech ... -.-
btw - u can stockpile up to 19 larvae on one hatch - should be easy to get 200/200 if u have 2 Marcohatches and queens in your main (assuming you are on 4 bases)
so if u have 74drones and 6 queens u can have 114 suppply worth of Zerglings, that beeing 228 Cracklings with some armorups within 30 seconds - good luck stalkers O_o
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
Try it again with Infestors and speed/cracklings and post the outcome here.
On April 20 2011 02:28 SweetenemY wrote: look up some posts i already wrote it
and yes - Zergs have the hardest time to switch tech ... -.-
btw - u can stockpile up to 19 larvae on one hatch - should be easy to get 200/200 if u have 2 Marcohatches and queens in your main (assuming you are on 4 bases)
so if u have 74drones and 6 queens u can have 114 suppply worth of Zerglings, that beeing 228 Cracklings with some armorups within 30 seconds - good luck stalkers O_o
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
Try it again with Infestors and speed/cracklings and post the outcome here.
I'm sure with infestors it'd be great but that's not what was suggested (and we all know mass lings with infestor support wrecks mass blink stalkers, that's why nobody goes mass blink stalkers if they can help it).
On April 20 2011 02:28 SweetenemY wrote: look up some posts i already wrote it
and yes - Zergs have the hardest time to switch tech ... -.-
btw - u can stockpile up to 19 larvae on one hatch - should be easy to get 200/200 if u have 2 Marcohatches and queens in your main (assuming you are on 4 bases)
so if u have 74drones and 6 queens u can have 114 suppply worth of Zerglings, that beeing 228 Cracklings with some armorups within 30 seconds - good luck stalkers O_o
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
Try it again with Infestors and speed/cracklings and post the outcome here.
I'm sure with infestors it'd be great but that's not what was suggested (and we all know mass lings with infestor support wrecks mass blink stalkers, that's why nobody goes mass blink stalkers if they can help it).
Ok ok, I was a bit wrong there and guess I didn't grasp the full context
But yeh infestors + cracklings are pretty awesome vs deathballs I heard
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. And the protoss would actually use blink micro, and not engage somewhere where the ball can get entirely engulfed in lings. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
You do realize that Protoss Stalker army has over twice the cost of the Zerg Zergling army. Kinda hard to call that a fair comparison when the Protoss has to spend so much more.
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. And the protoss would actually use blink micro, and not engage somewhere where the ball can get entirely engulfed in lings. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
You do realize that Protoss Stalker army has over twice the cost of the Zerg Zergling army. Kinda hard to call that a fair comparison when the Protoss has to spend so much more.
Yea but the point was those mass zerglings AFTER your original army got killed by the deathball and you killed the collosus. So we are comparing 1army to 2 armies.
Go to the unit tester and try 130 food of stalkers against your maxed unupgraded ling army. I gave stalkers 2/2 (no shield) and lings 3 armour (no melee) with adrenal glands. It's not even close. Unupgraded lings are not good when they cannot get a surround.
In reality, there will be at least one collosus reinforcing the stalkers so it's even more ridiculously in favour of Protoss. And the protoss would actually use blink micro, and not engage somewhere where the ball can get entirely engulfed in lings. How can you play the game and actually think these armies would be close?
You do realize that Protoss Stalker army has over twice the cost of the Zerg Zergling army. Kinda hard to call that a fair comparison when the Protoss has to spend so much more.
Another reason why it's dumb to max out on zerglings. It's not my bright idea.
On April 19 2011 20:29 SweetenemY wrote: followed by a wave made of any other unitcombo that fits the outcome of the first fight best, but instead they get roach/hy/corrupter again.
well arguing the point that zerg players are kind of stupid is not a step in the right direction
Especially when most Zerg players are considerably higher level than P and T players.
Untrue, and pretty much doing exactly what the guy you're quoting said is stupid to do.
I realize this is a stupid thing to do when I posted a very reasonable, objective "you don't have to nerf P and T to fix Zerg"-post on page 10, but I feel like saying this - so here I go:
1) Zerg is more difficult to just play "normally" - this is a fact, and few people will deny this. 2) When SC2 was refined to require less APM, a lot of fast, skilled players looked towards Z because they thought they would get more out of their fast fingers with Zerg. 3) Most people I know that were high level in other games, now play Zerg. Ie - better, higher quality RTS players have picked Zerg. 4) It is a common experience for Zergs on ladder to play harder, sneakier and more tactical than their opponents, and lose to simple, mindless, cookie-cutter builds by P and T. 5) Most intelligent commentators and people with insight in SC2, are Zerg players.
We have some awesome Ts and Ps out there, by all means, but most Zergs are playing on "very hard"-mode. Zergs have tried to master the game on "very hard" mode for almost a year now, and are of course in the face of repeated defeat, much better trained than most Ts and Ps.
Based on player skill alone, Zerg should be the dominating race as it was in the early / mid beta.
I find that this entire post is a troll.
If we're going to argue with 100% anecdotal evidence then here is mine in response. I play random and surprisingly enough zerg is the easiest race that I have found to play. I don't even have to select other buildings to make various units... I can end most games on one base trivially. Most people I talk to agree.
On April 20 2011 01:54 TheResidentEvil wrote: protoss use their strongest units and zerg dont. Pretty easy to see how this got one sided. I mean people complain about the Void Ray/ Colo and its the Toss STRONGEST units.
The issue here is that protoss can turtle while they slowly amass their "best units" while zerg couldn't do that. Try rushing to broodlord/infestor on 2-3 bases as zerg and see what happens. It's the scaling as you build your armies, zerg has to react to the potential of a 3-4 gate pressure, then 5-6 gate pressure, then air harass, dt tech so we're building our lower tier units and what happens? the protoss can either "shark mode" as inControl puts it or even just sit and turtle.
Zerg options? Keep the units and try to engage eventually with them while teching/expanding or throw the units at the protoss via harassment. But it's so easy for the protoss to defend while taking minimal losses. Every unit the protoss gets along the way (sentries, then stalkers/void ray/colossus in any order) contributes immediately to their army AND adds to their deathball.
EPT
