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On April 06 2011 06:59 Sevenofnines wrote:
The new BC's with support cannot be stopped by anything Protoss has once you reach a decent number of them. 4 or 5 BC's are still in the manageable range. Once this hits 8-10 or more there's simply nothing the Protoss can do. As I mentioned in your guide thread, the power of the new BC's is not just because of the movement speed increase. It's compounded by the removal of the Khydarian Amulet for HT's. Without on-demand Psi-Storms, your Marine mineral dumps become significantly stronger because heavy Starport play already forces Protoss to move away from Robotech and Colossi.
Other thoughts:
-Because of air-stacking, if you keep a decent number of Banshees alive from the midgame to pair with your BC's in the late-game, it significantly reduces the threat of Stalkers. A stack of 8-10 Banshees along with BC's simply owns Stalkers in huge numbers as evidenced in most of your replays. In the one game on Typhon peaks I think the Stalkers even had huge upgrade advantages over your air units but still got owned.
-To those trying this, DO NOT FORGET RAVENS. Not only do they let you snipe Observers which keeps the Protoss in the dark and make your Cloak Banshees even more powerful, but PDD's allow you to protect your first few BC's from Blink Stalker snipes so that you can build up towards critical mass.
-Mass marines owns all Stargate units while Terran Starport >>> Robotech. This forces the Protoss to rely on a primarily Gateway army whose best response against BC's is HT-Feedback with Blink Stalker. However your support units such as Banshees, mass marines, and Ravens will severely limit the effectiveness of these units and allow your BC's to roll them. The last resort would be Feedback along with Archons and Zealots but this can be solved by simply making Blue Flame Helions as your mineral dump.
Bottomline is that Sky Terran deathball >>> Protoss deathball. =D
This pretty much sums it up :D In the current metagame, Starport play crushes Robo first play because of how useless that tech tree is against Terran air  If I figure out a way to incorporate Ghosts during mid/lategame, it'll negate the Templar threat and should just about make Terran air one of the toughest playstyles to stop :D
On April 06 2011 12:40 Shnur wrote:Will be eyeing this thread; always wanted to do some BC experiments since new patch.
If I get enough replays for a second replay pack, I'll be sure to add it to this. BCs are freaking awesome =D
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I just found this thread... I've been using you previous build pretty much exclusively against protoss… The only thing that ever gives me trouble is mass VR’s but part of that is my fault for doing sucky scouting, but this well def help against them… Anyway, I can’t wait to get home and take a look at this replay pack, I always thought BC’s would be an easy transition for this build since you have 4 Tech Lab starports, I just never liked using them because they took a week and a half to get across the map before 1.3
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very interesting thread and replays. gonna watch them all, thanks!
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On April 06 2011 21:45 BONE wrote:
I just found this thread... I've been using you previous build pretty much exclusively against protoss… The only thing that ever gives me trouble is mass VR’s but part of that is my fault for doing sucky scouting, but this well def help against them… Anyway, I can’t wait to get home and take a look at this replay pack, I always thought BC’s would be an easy transition for this build since you have 4 Tech Lab starports, I just never liked using them because they took a week and a half to get across the map before 1.3
Yeah, they were also really damn good pre patch 1.3 too in my opinion, but the speed buff makes SUCH a huge difference now, they're so fast! It really helps when you need to make quick escapes or cross the map in a short amount of time
With mass Void Rays, you'll want Viking/Marine support along with Yamato to 1 shot them. A Void Ray army can't be replaced very easily at all, so just whittle away at it with Yamato and Vikings and you'll be in the clear!
On April 06 2011 21:51 Black Gun wrote:
very interesting thread and replays. gonna watch them all, thanks!
Please leave feedback/comments if you have any! I'd really appreciate it Thanks and hope you enjoy :D
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I'm eager to check this out =)
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On April 06 2011 06:36 Synystyr wrote:
So any feedback? What do you guys think so far? The aim for these replays is to show that Battlecruisers are indeed a viable transition in the lategame and by far the strongest in my opinion. Thoughts?
I've been trying it out at platinum level. Seems to be a great answer to collosus deathballs, but i've run into problems with feedback/storm/stalker. 1-2 ghosts would be ideal of course, but I doubt I could rely on my micro to get a clutch EMP done. Yamato is really great vs. voids and collosus, and there's plenty of minerals to expo liberally and build SCVs for repair and bio to support.
Opening banshee instead of siege is also making me more confident/better map control/more multitasking/more harass etc, which is a great direction for me.
Thanks for sharing!
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On April 06 2011 20:35 Synystyr wrote:This pretty much sums it up :D In the current metagame, Starport play crushes Robo first play because of how useless that tech tree is against Terran air If I figure out a way to incorporate Ghosts during mid/lategame, it'll negate the Templar threat and should just about make Terran air one of the toughest playstyles to stop :D
I'd figure you could try slipping in 2 Ghosts after the first round of BC production. This is basically just the cost of 1 BC, so you would end up with just 1 less BC after the second round. This also lets the Ghosts build up energy while the second round of BC's are finishing up. So where you would normally have 8 BC's, you would instead have 7 BC's and 2 Ghosts. By the time you move out, the Ghosts should have enough for 2 EMP's each which should be enough. Also, since BC's are so big, your Ghosts will be hidden underneath them so that the Templar can't Feedback them unless the Protoss uses some crazy camera manipulation. Basically the EMP's are virtually guaranteed to go off and the Toss is screwed.
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Nice work i think they have great potentcial its like toss going blink stalkers for mobile defence if you go air heavy and are very active with it, there were some clear mistakes on your enemies that let u roll them with bcs in some of them but good work man these are sweet I wonder how this style would do in the pros
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Just a note about the Goody v. Naniwa game mentioned in this thread. The game was long over at the time the Fusion Core started to get constructed. Early game Nani is down 9 workers to 19 and midgame he is down 19 workers to 30 + an expansion. I'm not sure it's a valid example of BCs in TvP.
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Lot of theorycraft incoming.
People underestimate feedback especially against banshees. I've had people go mass marine/banshee/raven against me, templar just one-shots the ravens and banshees a lot of the time and double forge upgraded chargelots and stalkers destroy marines. Good feedback micro would take out ghosts, banshees, and ravens. Feedback would take out a lot of BC health and blink stalkers would take care of the rest after their support is down. Critical mass of BCs would be annoying to deal with though, so the best solution for P would probably be something like a 2 base timing push with +2/2 and templar solely for feedback. I can live with spending 150 on gas to take out ravens and banshees and cripple BCs since my chargelot mineral dump is as good or better than your marine mineral dump especially since I only need to focus on ground upgrades. Curious to see how this would work out, and if templar production would be able to match 4 starport banshee production at least enough to whittle down the numbers of banshees to make them manageable.
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I really love this strat. Its funny to see the reactions of the players I use it on. Cheers mate.
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On April 07 2011 03:21 aidnai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 06:36 Synystyr wrote:
So any feedback? What do you guys think so far? The aim for these replays is to show that Battlecruisers are indeed a viable transition in the lategame and by far the strongest in my opinion. Thoughts? I've been trying it out at platinum level. Seems to be a great answer to collosus deathballs, but i've run into problems with feedback/storm/stalker. 1-2 ghosts would be ideal of course, but I doubt I could rely on my micro to get a clutch EMP done. Yamato is really great vs. voids and collosus, and there's plenty of minerals to expo liberally and build SCVs for repair and bio to support. Opening banshee instead of siege is also making me more confident/better map control/more multitasking/more harass etc, which is a great direction for me. Thanks for sharing!
On April 07 2011 03:58 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:35 Synystyr wrote:This pretty much sums it up :D In the current metagame, Starport play crushes Robo first play because of how useless that tech tree is against Terran air If I figure out a way to incorporate Ghosts during mid/lategame, it'll negate the Templar threat and should just about make Terran air one of the toughest playstyles to stop :D I'd figure you could try slipping in 2 Ghosts after the first round of BC production. This is basically just the cost of 1 BC, so you would end up with just 1 less BC after the second round. This also lets the Ghosts build up energy while the second round of BC's are finishing up. So where you would normally have 8 BC's, you would instead have 7 BC's and 2 Ghosts. By the time you move out, the Ghosts should have enough for 2 EMP's each which should be enough. Also, since BC's are so big, your Ghosts will be hidden underneath them so that the Templar can't Feedback them unless the Protoss uses some crazy camera manipulation. Basically the EMP's are virtually guaranteed to go off and the Toss is screwed.
Thanks for the feedback! I definitely hear you guys with the Ghosts. They seem like they will be the deciding factor of big battles in the late game. Just a couple EMPs will nullify the templar threat and make my BCs that much scarier
On April 07 2011 06:25 Carkis wrote:
Nice work i think they have great potentcial its like toss going blink stalkers for mobile defence if you go air heavy and are very active with it, there were some clear mistakes on your enemies that let u roll them with bcs in some of them but good work man these are sweet I wonder how this style would do in the pros
The only pros I'm aware of that have done something similar to this are oGsSupernova (who uses more tanks), and TLO (MLG Game 2). I know that eventually it will find its niche in progamers' strategies. I can't wait
On April 07 2011 15:46 Heavenly wrote:
Lot of theorycraft incoming.
People underestimate feedback especially against banshees. I've had people go mass marine/banshee/raven against me, templar just one-shots the ravens and banshees a lot of the time and double forge upgraded chargelots and stalkers destroy marines. Good feedback micro would take out ghosts, banshees, and ravens. Feedback would take out a lot of BC health and blink stalkers would take care of the rest after their support is down. Critical mass of BCs would be annoying to deal with though, so the best solution for P would probably be something like a 2 base timing push with +2/2 and templar solely for feedback. I can live with spending 150 on gas to take out ravens and banshees and cripple BCs since my chargelot mineral dump is as good or better than your marine mineral dump especially since I only need to focus on ground upgrades. Curious to see how this would work out, and if templar production would be able to match 4 starport banshee production at least enough to whittle down the numbers of banshees to make them manageable.
Quite a bit of theorycrafting there  I have played a lot of games against High Templars and found that Feedback really isn't that scary against me. There are SO many banshees out when I push that there is no way you can Feedback all of them in time. I also place down the PDDs before engaging so that there is no chance of a snipe. With cloak draining the energy of my banshees as well, the damage done by any successful feedbacks is negligible. Templars are great with Storms against this unit composition however due to how Banshees stack when they attack and how clumped marines get as well. Check out the replays in my Anti-Colossus Build thread for replays against HTs
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On April 07 2011 15:46 Heavenly wrote:
Lot of theorycraft incoming.
People underestimate feedback especially against banshees. I've had people go mass marine/banshee/raven against me, templar just one-shots the ravens and banshees a lot of the time and double forge upgraded chargelots and stalkers destroy marines. Good feedback micro would take out ghosts, banshees, and ravens. Feedback would take out a lot of BC health and blink stalkers would take care of the rest after their support is down. Critical mass of BCs would be annoying to deal with though, so the best solution for P would probably be something like a 2 base timing push with +2/2 and templar solely for feedback. I can live with spending 150 on gas to take out ravens and banshees and cripple BCs since my chargelot mineral dump is as good or better than your marine mineral dump especially since I only need to focus on ground upgrades. Curious to see how this would work out, and if templar production would be able to match 4 starport banshee production at least enough to whittle down the numbers of banshees to make them manageable.
It's impossible to 1-shot Feedback Banshees if the Terran knows a simple trick. Any Terran player seeing mass Templar can spam Cloak/De-Cloak to keep the Banshees low on energy. This is because anytime you use Cloak it costs 25 energy. Therefore if say you have a Banshee with 200 energy, you can just hit cloak and decloak 6 times to reduce it's energy down to 50 almost instantly. Then when you go into battle, you can cloak again to reduce it down to 25. You will still have 25 seconds of Cloak this way, which is more than enough for any battle, and the most damage a Feedback will do is 25 damage which is not even worth the 50 energy that Feedback costs from the HT.
This trick basically makes HT Feedback completely useless in terms of dealing damage and more of a "I hope I can feedback them all to decloak them before he kills my Observers".
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Nice games, but this should really be a 4-port banshee pack since really the banshees won the games. The BCs were just for cleanup.
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On April 08 2011 07:35 _Search_ wrote:
Nice games, but this should really be a 4-port banshee pack since really the banshees won the games. The BCs were just for cleanup.
Only for a couple games. In more of those, the BCs played a huge role in securing my lead and pushing my advantage. This is extremely important. You have to make sure that when you're ahead, you don't let your lead slip and can end the game in a safe manner. BCs are the way to go for that. Guaranteed victory if you can get 3-4 out and deny expansions with your banshees while they are building.
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On April 07 2011 15:00 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
Just a note about the Goody v. Naniwa game mentioned in this thread. The game was long over at the time the Fusion Core started to get constructed. Early game Nani is down 9 workers to 19 and midgame he is down 19 workers to 30 + an expansion. I'm not sure it's a valid example of BCs in TvP.
+1
After that opening (Nexus-Cancel into Probe-Sacrifice) it shouldnt really matter, which units are used to finish the job.
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On April 12 2011 23:00 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 15:00 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
Just a note about the Goody v. Naniwa game mentioned in this thread. The game was long over at the time the Fusion Core started to get constructed. Early game Nani is down 9 workers to 19 and midgame he is down 19 workers to 30 + an expansion. I'm not sure it's a valid example of BCs in TvP. +1 After that opening (Nexus-Cancel into Probe-Sacrifice) it shouldnt really matter, which units are used to finish the job.
I suppose so. It may not have been the best example, but it certainly wasn't a discredit to Battlecruisers either. It was a very safe route to take as there really was nothing Nani could have done to stop them.
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I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm curious if anyone has tried a bio bc combo? It's probably not the best against protoss as, when I try it at least, my bio usually gets wiped, but then i have bcs leftover killing usually leftover colossi.
I think it would make more sense to go all air, but I like opening with some 2rax bio aggression just to throw my opponent off. They never suspect bcs. The main reason I want this strat to work is because bcs are about the same speed as bio without stim now (only a little slower), and the idea of a bc supported bio army just seems badass to me. So far it's worked better against zerg and terran though.
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On April 14 2011 14:14 Poetic wrote:
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm curious if anyone has tried a bio bc combo? It's probably not the best against protoss as, when I try it at least, my bio usually gets wiped, but then i have bcs leftover killing usually leftover colossi.
I think it would make more sense to go all air, but I like opening with some 2rax bio aggression just to throw my opponent off. They never suspect bcs. The main reason I want this strat to work is because bcs are about the same speed as bio without stim now (only a little slower), and the idea of a bc supported bio army just seems badass to me. So far it's worked better against zerg and terran though.
If you are in a late game situation where you can't produce Air units quickly enough to deal with mass Stalkers, you can transition into mass barracks and do a fast Marauder heavy transition with some sort of Air support because you have the Starports available (Medivacs probably). You'll have a huge surplus of minerals because you are gas starved spending on air. Marauder/Medivac should decimate Stalker/HT, which is something you are likely to see in response to your midgame army.
If you want to go straight Bio/BC, you can only really afford Marines because BCs will soaked up ALL your gas spending and leave you with very little leniency to spend elsewhere. I'd rather spend extra gas on upgrades for Air units, rather than a handful of marauders that will die to the initial wave of Chargelot/Colossi anyways. Better to tech switch to Bio lategame if you can.
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EPT
