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On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game
Wait... you're trolling right?!?!
Artosis is one of top players in understanding the game. I also believe that because of this if he had the time to just sit down and mass games he would be able to compete with the 'progamers'.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Probably Artosis, then Day9, then Psy.
I know HD is decent, mid level Masters, so he isn't that bad.
If they all trained to max, then it would probably be an epic slugfest between Day9 and Artosis, as both of them would be pretty boss.
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Between:
iNcontrol
Artosis
Day[9]
FXOsheth
maybe Gretorp but i dont know what his current play level is
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Without a doubt the answer is Artosis. Day9 doesn't play enough to keep up with current trends/strategies.
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artosis. day9 could probably tell you everything there is to know about brood war, but he has, for the most part, retired as a player. artosis is still playing, and he's far more in touch with the metagame than anyone else. he also plays two races, so he has a first hand understanding of 5/6 of the matchups.
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Out of the full-time commentators, it's Artosis for sure. In fact, even if Inc, Sheth and Gretorp did count as commentators, I wouldn't be so quick to rank any of them above Artosis skill-wise.
Day9 still has the most potential though, his accomplishments and reputation in BW shouldn't be taken lightly. Besides, if Artosis can still do it, that only means Day9 can do it better. =P
Don't know much about Tasteless now, and he didn't really shine in BW either, so at this point I can't imagine him competing seriously.
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incontrol, gretorp, sheth, tlo and more have all casted so it's just the question about where you draw the limit at player-caster or caster-player. I'd say Artosis because he's a professional caster and we're made to think he's somewhat skilled at least;) but I don't think he's in as good a shape as the guys I mentioned earlier in the post so just pick your definition.
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Geoff.
Though he really needs to place well in MLG or something :D
Artosis is probably pretty high up there though I would take his analysis of new stuff with a grain of salt.
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As far as regular commentators go (therefore not including the likes of Idra and TLO), I'd say Artosis with maybe incontrol getting an honorable mention. I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level. I believe he will probably be very good once he goes into full-time progaming, but as of now, he most likely lacks practice and is not that great of a player, which is why I think he refuses to show games of himself playing.
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I'd say Artosis when speaking about actual play, however Day9 is on par with him if not more advanced when it comes to understanding the game and the flow of the metagame. Also, I doubt once day9 graduates he'll spend all his time playing SC2 as many of you suggest - I have a good feeling Blizzard will pick him up 
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I have a feeling Artosis is the strongest one, though it really depends who you count as commentators.
Even Idra for that matter can count as commentator since he did replace tastosis for a while.
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Artosis, gotta be. I like him better as a player or a caster than Incontrol
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On March 25 2011 00:50 Sneakyz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time. They obviously try to make it exciting for the casual viewer lol Exciting by saying that it's over?
They're all the time 'Yeah, we could pretend that it's not over to make it more exciting, but he actually has 0% chance of coming back'. -> comes back.
On March 25 2011 00:53 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 00:47 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Define 'commentator'? a lot of pros have commentated on the side, TLO, IdrA, PainUser...
And skill is not monodimensional, for instance, Day9 is not the best in a straight up match but his understanding of the game is very good, same for PsY, he really understands a lot of this game, more than most full time pros who just play by feeling it seems. Artosis and Tasteless on the other hand, though probably both better players than PsY have downright terrible understanding of the game ("No way he can save this nexus" -> saves nexus, "This is gg in any minute now." -> games goes on for 30 more minutes, "vikings are terrible on the ground" -> vikings land and obliterate everything) I always found it humorous when people diss Kelly for her lack of understanding, but Tastosis make so many bad calls each match.
The guy I'd personally recomment for learning from is PsY though, just slightly better than Day[9] who often tries to sugar-coat and fills his hour up with trivial nonsense from time to time. You expect them to make every call right? I expect him to not say 'There is 0% chance of him coming back, trust me guys, this game is over, some of you noobs might think at home 'But what if he ...', but no, it's actually over.' And then he comes back.
Artosis gets things right 99% of the time, how many times has a game been 2 minutes in and he says "I bet x goes for this and his opponent does this" and then is proven exactly right 30 secs later. It's not hard to get that right 99% of the time and he'smore like 95%.
Recognising when a game is totally over is quite easy actually, people do it all the time on ladder, without third person view even, it's when they gg.
When they talk about a nexus being dead and it gets saved, 80% of the time it doesn't get saved, the other 20% the player either isn't paying attention to his army and it starts attacking the opponents rallying units instead or he actively decides to kill the new army before it kills his, instead of finishes the nexus. Or more often the nexus survives with 30 hp.... Watch the teamleague, MC versus SlayersWhatshisname. He said 'there is 0% chance this nexus is going to live', MC ends up holding it off very easily and watching it I was like 'Nahh, that nexus is going to survive very easily.'.
Vikings are terrible on the ground, but if you have 16 of them and the opponent has 6 stalkers ofc they win....... if you land 6 vikings against 6 equal HP ground units... they lose.... just because they win a fight every now and then doesn't mean they are good on the ground. No, vikings are decent on the ground because they do 12 dps on the ground (1 armour redux) and do 10 dps in the air versus unarmoured and 14 versus armoured, both getting double armour reduction.
Vikings are for instance actually on equal footing with stalkers on the ground, which wins in equal numbers depends on target acquisition and concave. And yes, Vikings are more expensive, but they can fly away, stalkers can't. Vikings are by no means 'terrible' on the ground. Also, stalkers receive a penalty versus unarmoured units, vikings do not. 8 vikings beat 16 marines on the ground hands down, some green vikings left, only one dies in unit tester. However 8 stalkers versus 16 marines again depends on random target acquisition who comes out ahead.
PsY knows this and pointed it out in a video. I once made a thread here about this situation, my hypothesis is that the viking attack animation looks weak, and therefore it gives people the subconscious idea that it is weak. (not to mention that few people actually land them).
If you think that Vikings are terrible on the ground I have some doubts about your own understanding of the game and by extension ability to judge that of others, there is neither a statistical nor an empirical justification for this. They perform similarly to stalkers against armoured targets and a lot better against unarmoured targets on the ground, well worth the extra 25/25 price tag for their ability to lift off and fly away.
Artosis however is very good in making it appear he knows a lot by just talking analytical all the time, quite often he's also wrong or is really prone to 'hipster reasoning' ("I love what he's doing, because it's never been done before!") Let's face it, the guy loves every protoss who doesn't go 2base colossus, not because it's not that good (he's desperately trying to find a justification why it's bad, kind of ironical since he called the unit imbalanced and overpowered), but simply because it's trite and everyone does it.
Also, back at the beginning of GSL 5 he didn't even know why you would get armour against terran as protoss, he wasn't sure how to explain that San got armour first, surely this is the standard and people have figured this out months ago?
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On March 25 2011 01:16 Sein wrote:
I'm not sure why so many people are mentioning Day9 when they probably haven't seen a single game of him playing SC2 for almost a year. His understanding of the game is undeniably good and he'd probably make an excellent coach for just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that his level of play is at the very top level. I believe he will probably be very good once he goes into full-time progaming, but as of now, he most likely lacks practice and is not that great of a player, which is why I think he refuses to show games of himself playing.
Not practicing doesn't make you a less good player, it just means you're out of shape and can't compete seriously.
If somebody was a top player at some point, and he's not too old (which Sean isn't), it's not something that just goes away. Couple of months with proper motivation is all that's needed.
In all honesty, I do think a lot of newer fans mention Day9 only because of his exposure in the community. However, I personally consider an accomplished top foreign BW player to easily have what it takes to rank above most active competitors in SC2 nowadays if he was serious about it and motivated to do it.
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Artosis has highest game knowledge I think. Not only he is decent player he is playing / commentating in korea and has seen hundreds of different builds / strateigies etc.
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You people are totally overrating Day[9], its obvious even from his casting/dailies that he isn't actually playing the game much at all. Like Incontrol said on one SOTG, he sometimes cringes at Day9 casting simply because he's not keeping up with metagame and says things that miss the mark. I have huge respect for Day's dedication on getting his education finished and doing so much for e-sports at the same time, but its obvious he casts using his amazing "common RTS sense" (which is an area where only Artosis can rival him) instead of intricate SC2 knowledge.
As for casters who are currently very potent players: Artosis, Incontrol, maybe Gretorp. I'd rate Incontrol a notch above the other 2 as a player.
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On March 25 2011 01:05 Chill wrote:I've plateaued at 3200 with random. This thread is hard to answer because who is a commenatator? Is Destiny a commentator? Is Combat-Ex a commentator? And what is skill? Are we talking about results or theoretical skill? Or theoretical potential? Fuck it I'll just answer Artosis.
That will probably be the best rank for all casters. Very impressive rank for a random user!
respect!
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I would say Artosis and Incontrol.
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EPT
