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I haven't seen a thread that discusses about the GSTL compared to the GSL and let me start off with, WOW HOLY CRAP TODAY'S GSTL GAMES WERE AWESOME!
Every now and then I read the LR thread for GSTL and seems like everyone agrees that the team leagues produce much more exciting games than regular gsl. Why is this so? We even see lesser cheese unless it is totally needed, + Show Spoiler +MC about to all kill until MMA cheesed him to get slayers to go through 4-3
It also feels that GSTL creates more of a connection between the viewers and the teams. Like last GSTL slayers did poorly for the first round and i'm sure some of us went 'yeah these guys are overhyped, bad and just spammed with sponsors cause boxer is leading it. they're not good.' but wow did they totally wreck shit up in this GSTL. Also the ceremonies, celebrations and player reactions to the games are pretty exciting to watch. Seeing stuff like people starting to think that boxer is grooming up MMA to be the next oov is really something.
Even the GSL finals compared to GSTL finals for last season is a huge difference. I don't wanna spoil the previous GSTL finals but with stuff like 70 supply deficit tvt come back from god knows where, 2 Motherships and an archon toilet, 45 min back and forth tvp game etc I think you guys know where im heading.
I think GSTL should be a full league where you get all the teams that are currently in GSTL and add Team Liquid and MVP (Genius, Guineapig,DRG's team) it could be exciting to watch. We've always been hearing about these awesome players from respective teams who are so good but just aren't in GSL code A or S so maybe this could be a chance for those guys to show that they're living up to their hype?
Poll: Which do you prefer GSTL or GSL?GSTL (812) 88% GSL (109) 12% 921 total votes Your vote: Which do you prefer GSTL or GSL? (Vote): GSL
(Vote): GSTL
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If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
User was warned for this post
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
..................... do you even know what the GSTL is? >.>
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
You should be banned for an inability to read.
Ontopic: Totally agree, SlayerS coming out and all the amazing games is indeed a spectacle. It seems players play better when the focus on the team aspect.
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
I think OP means team games are in the context of team vs team 1v1s like the GSTL. In Brood War, this term was mixed in with "Proleague".
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
I think you mistook what I meant, 1v1 Team Leagues like round-robin style not 2v2/3v3/4v4 etc 
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
Do you know what you're talking about at all :|
I hope the SC2 proscene evolves into like the BW proscene with a huge team league so that there are more opportunities for new talents to show games. The team league format is awesome too.
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yeahi like the teamleague. but i have to say that it has something to do with the time schedulde the gsl is using. an individual league for only 1 month takes away a lot of hype :/
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I thoroughly enjoy the team league. Every team league match is so exciting for me, I'm constantly pumped to see people who depend on each other triumph or fail! It's also a good way to showcase talent that for one reason or another isn't in Code A/S.
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Team leagues are always more exciting than individual leagues unless it's the semi-finals or finals with the best players IMO. The most anticipated date in the BW calendar is the Proleague finals, followed by the Winner's League finals and FvJ OSL/MSL finals.
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I think yeah gstl more exciting than gsl
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I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames?
Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one)
I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies.
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from teamgames?
I'll take that as a no......
They mean that the team players are on (like ogs for ogsmc), battles against other team in a 1v1 bo7, winner stays format.
So for example:
OGS - IM
Inca - MVP
TOP - MVP
TOP - Nestea '
Ensnare - Nestea
MC - Nestea
MC - Losira
MC - Seed
Randomly making stuff up here but that's an example of how the GSTL format would work.
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i think Proleague style is just way healthier and sustainable for the sc2 pro scene as well as being more exciting. So far the GSTL has been totally awesome, same as the past one. It had so many cool games and memorable moments.
Having a teamleague will also justify having a lot of players on the rosters. As it stands right now, we barely see half of these awesome guys who are obviously talented and skillful. Yet, in individual leagues such as GSL ( or MSL/OSL), there are so few spots that all these talented players are having zero exposure and if a team has limited budget, it will be hard to sustain the salaries of so many players.
I hope the team league become more prominent in the future.
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames?
This post might be worse than your first...
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On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames?
just get out of the thread.
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His team wins, he gets to show that he's the best?
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Shinobi you dont get what xza is writing. Teamgames are still 1v1 but the result is determine by which team gets for example 4 wins. Team sends players to a 1v1 match. Winner of the match stays. Loser gets replaced.
And about those "medicore" players.... You know some of the most impressive games of SC2 had Code B players playing. Also teamgames offer a lot of variety of plays. People have like 1-2 minutes to prepare themselves for a match not like couple of days so instant decision by players and coaches are crucial. Not to mention there is lots of interaction between players and its all shown... In regular GSL you see player in booth than doing the interview and its all.
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I like GSTL more than GSL. I like the drama :D
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On March 24 2011 00:11 tyCe wrote:
Team leagues are always more exciting than individual leagues unless it's the semi-finals or finals with the best players IMO. The most anticipated date in the BW calendar is the Proleague finals, followed by the Winner's League finals and FvJ OSL/MSL finals.
Don't forget KT vs SKT in Pro-League with OOV gorilla talk etc.
I would like a Pro-League like environement much much much more than a GSL every month.
It gives lesser known players the chance to show of their skills, learn to deal with the pressure etc.
Also much much more to cheer for, learning to identify with each team, starting REAL rivalries and so much more.
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On March 24 2011 00:16 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames? Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one) I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies.
Only excited because you have the whole team standing there with you so you can do crazy shit and not get any smack for it. GSTL* is testing ground where GSL is true competition.
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GSTL have alot less to loose individually, so you see the more funky tactics.
Also you can just stick in the game since you are playing just that game, not a BO3 or BO5 personally. The Maka vs Rainbow game would have ended in GSL already, Maka would have tapped out and saved his energy for the upcomming 2 games. Bomber vs MMA the same.
You are see alot more tactics that you normally dont see. I think they want to entertain the audience more then in GSL. GSL is about getting far and cashing. GSTL is more about doing well as a team and having fun.
For me its
GSL => Skill
GSTL => Funfactor
Also I loooove the rivalries between them. Poking here, thumbsdowning there, dancing in front of the benches if you won. Thats hilarious and the crowd loves it. (however when MC mannarnexuses July, all the people complain about mannar...)
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On March 24 2011 00:19 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:16 Armsved wrote:On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames? Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one) I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies. Only excited because you have the whole team standing there with you so you can do crazy shit and not get any smack for it. GTSl is testing ground where GSL is true competition.
I take it you didn't follow BW. So you don't know what teamleague is all about.
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
Yes, but ironically not for the reason you thought.
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On March 24 2011 00:20 se7en247 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:19 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 24 2011 00:16 Armsved wrote:On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames? Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one) I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies. Only excited because you have the whole team standing there with you so you can do crazy shit and not get any smack for it. GTSl is testing ground where GSL is true competition. I take it you didn't follow BW. So you don't know what teamleague is all about.
Don't bother with the troll, he only just realized GSTL doesn't mean 2v2/3v3/4v4, and is now trying to cover it up with bs talk.
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Proleague is what kept me in watching korean starcraft a lot so yes.
By the way, a sort of unrelated question, I havent been watching GSL that much lately (Not that closely at least) and I´m just wondering, do they have the doom-zoom in GSL yet? <3 You know the one where they zoom to the player who is losings face, so dramatic and so badass. Especially when you see how desperate they look! Small things like that make everything so much more exiting!
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
You terribly missunderstood his point
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On March 24 2011 00:20 se7en247 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:19 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 24 2011 00:16 Armsved wrote:On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames? Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one) I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies. Only excited because you have the whole team standing there with you so you can do crazy shit and not get any smack for it. GTSl is testing ground where GSL is true competition. I take it you didn't follow BW. So you don't know what teamleague is all about.
Right and here I tough it was to obvious to say it (mental note: on the nets you have to spell everything out).
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I can't really say I prefer one over the other, I'm happy that there are both a team league and an individual league because both are very cool. But putting that aside, yes GSTL has produced a lot of awesome games.
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On March 24 2011 00:23 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:20 se7en247 wrote:On March 24 2011 00:19 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 24 2011 00:16 Armsved wrote:On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames? Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one) I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies. Only excited because you have the whole team standing there with you so you can do crazy shit and not get any smack for it. GTSl is testing ground where GSL is true competition. I take it you didn't follow BW. So you don't know what teamleague is all about. Right and here I tough it was to obvious to say it (mental note: on the nets you have to spell everything out).
Look at this guy go.
You're in too deep man, just admit you made an ignorant assumption.
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On March 24 2011 00:21 Slakter wrote:
Proleague is what kept me in watching korean starcraft a lot so yes.
By the way, a sort of unrelated question, I havent been watching GSL that much lately (Not that closely at least) and I´m just wondering, do they have the doom-zoom in GSL yet? <3 You know the one where they zoom to the player who is losings face, so dramatic and so badass. Especially when you see how desperate they look! Small things like that make everything so much more exiting!
They do it a little bit but they don't seem to be that good at it  They usually don't catch any good expressions atm.
Also team leagues are just special. There's something amazing about them that an individual league will never accomplish; we need one that's more "regular" or serious in SC2. An actual league, like proleague. That would be so awesome.
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Ok my last post on this topic. I like single 1v1 competition where you (during a tournament) do not have to rely on other people to win something. So the concept of Proleague never got to me. Nothing more, nothing less.
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On March 24 2011 00:30 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Ok my last post on this topic. I like single 1v1 competition where you (during a tournament) do not have to rely on other people to win something. So the concept of Proleague never got to me. Nothing more, nothing less.
Do you understand this isn't 2v2/3v3/4v4 yet?
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yay.
anyway, once the major kespa players move to sc2, we probably will have a full-fledged proleague/teamleague.
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season 1 of the gstl was already WAY more exciting than gsl
and season 2 is even better
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On March 24 2011 00:23 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:20 se7en247 wrote:On March 24 2011 00:19 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 24 2011 00:16 Armsved wrote:On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames? Admit you didnt know it, because If you knew it, your first post was pretty fucking retarded (Just like this one) I think GSL TL is waaaaay more exiting than normal GSL. I really love the personality, the BM and the ceremonies. Only excited because you have the whole team standing there with you so you can do crazy shit and not get any smack for it. GTSl is testing ground where GSL is true competition. I take it you didn't follow BW. So you don't know what teamleague is all about. Right and here I tough it was to obvious to say it (mental note: on the nets you have to spell everything out).
Everything you've said in this thread has been terribly wrong, and it's VERY PLAINLY obvious that you didn't watch much of either proleague (in BroodWar) or teamleague (SC2). In fact, I'd be willing to bet you didn't watch a single whole teamleague match.
Yes, you're that wrong that we can conclude it from your posts.
Just admit your mistake and do me a favor by watching the next teamleague event, because if you like SC2, you'll love it. Then come back and contribute to discussions.
p.s. nobody's holding your initial mistake against you, it's your stubbornness that's sticky.
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On March 24 2011 00:30 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Ok my last post on this topic. I like single 1v1 competition where you (during a tournament) do not have to rely on other people to win something. So the concept of Proleague never got to me. Nothing more, nothing less.
Seems you don't like team sports. A ton of the drama, backstory, and fun games were from Proleague. And this is Winner's League format. So if your 1v1 is soooo good, then just all-kill. Personally, I think we need a lot more of GSTL.
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I agree. Team games are much more interesting to watch!
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the GSTL would be awesome - if it weren't too much stuff in only 4 days. why not have maximum one BO7 per day over a period of 7 weeks?
I managed to watch (almost) all of it this week, but in the end of a day i always do other stuff because I simply have not the time to watch just GSTL vor 5 to 6 hours a day
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Lol at Shinobi1982...
Anyway, GSTL is so much more awesome than GSL and I didn't think anything could beat GSL. I would love if GOM made the GSTL more extensive and in a league format instead of single elimination.
Besides the obvious excitement it brings to the viewers, it might also be better for the teams as they will be able to obtain more sponsorships as a team. There's only so much exposure a company can get from individual players. Whereas in a team league the sponsors can be advertised on the intro videos, the jerseys and stuff.
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well if im not wrong Taiwan has their own TESL league right so that's like an opportunity to create a sort of world team cup like once a year (champions league anyone?  ). We can even expect more from the chinese players since SC2 is gonna be released in China soon.
Like sort of get 2 of the best teams in each region, KR, CN, TW, EU, SEA, US and have like an big cup event during blizzcon or something. That amount of teams with the number of blizzcon spectators would be insane.
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Btw guys there's gonna be a team-based showmatch of Koreans vs the world in the World Championship ^^ It's going to rule!
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It's hardly surprising. In BW proleague was much more exciting to me than the OSL or MSL (with the exception of the finals). The same should apply to SC2. Also watching a bo7 showmatch is not nearly as exciting to me as watching a winners style CW. This is because you get more variety in styles and races and it feels like the games are more important as the entire team is involved rather than simply one player.
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I like GSTL more. One of the main reasons is the whole team spirit, and guessing who they will put in next. It is pure awesome.
GSL is superb but I think this has a lot of potential and I enjoy it for the most part more than regular matches. Also seeing the coach/player relations and ofc the occasional knocking over of a monitor is cool.
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On March 24 2011 00:41 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
It's hardly surprising. In BW proleague was much more exciting to me than the OSL or MSL (with the exception of the finals). The same should apply to SC2. Also watching a bo7 showmatch is not nearly as exciting to me as watching a winners style CW. This is because you get more variety in styles and races and it feels like the games are more important as the entire team is involved rather than simply one player.
To be honest with you I think bo7 is just kind of a lame format. For some reason it doesn't come off as exciting as bo5 to me. It's good for team league games though.
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I think that the current GSTL all-kill format would work for a long-lasting league.
Ideally, they would do as Proleague does, and implement the current proleague format in multiple-month league and having a winner's league in all-kill format.
I never really played BW, but I still find proleague entertaining and everything!
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In broodwar i prefered proleague over OSL/MSL.
I've not watched that much of GSTL as i've been busy this week, but I hope it will only get bigger and better. Because teamgames are the shit =)
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so far the two GSTL has proven to be much more dramatic and exciting than all the 5 GSL combined.. I cant wait for the next to come..
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Absolutely.
The team league rocks.
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On March 24 2011 00:44 siewkeat wrote:
so far the two GSTL has proven to be much more dramatic and exciting than all the 5 GSL combined.. I cant wait for the next to come..
You could take almost any GSTL match set and say it has been more exciting than all the GSL finals by far.
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Russian Federation304 Posts
I think GSTL is more exciting than GSL cuz of BO7 every match, not BO1 or BO3
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Proleague is the only BW I watch these days; despite only playing and mostly watching SC2, the team-league atmosphere, the great games, and the personal connections I've formed with the players and teams keep me coming back again and again. GO SAMSUNG KHAN!
If GOM could replicate this experience in SC2, you bet I'd be all over that. It's just a smart business move.
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I enjoy GSTL way more than GSL. It gives opportunities for less known players to shine, a great deal more variety in term of style, a lot more drama and fantastic player to player interaction.
I really liked those little hype interviews, and intros GOM is doing. I'd definitely say that GOM took a page out of BW proleague and improved upon it.
There are many famous Brood War players who would remain completely unknown if it were not for team league.
I found it strange that the OP did not put up a poll......
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GSTL have more drama than GSL that what i like the most
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I dont think one can exist without the other because when MC loses to a relative no-namer everyone is upset because MC as a champion lost to someone who we never ever heard of. But here's the problem, if there are no individual leagues or the focus is set on team leagues then MC losing to a unknown player wouldn't be such a big deal simply because we wouldn't see MC as this beastly protoss who won 2 titles in the last 3 months, you know what I mean?
I feel like having both team and individual leagues is important. That being said, I agree that maybe GSTL should be the main event, spanning across a few months and inbetween we could have the code S and code A leagues. Maybe put a bit more money in GSTL and reduce the code S money so that the wins in individual leagues are still very satisfactory for the player but that winning a team league is equally as rewarding. This way we could differentiate the teams even more, some would have these superstar individuals but not that great overall team players and other teams would have these sick guys who are just solid in playing these team bo7's.
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Team leagues such as this have a more spectator-friendly ambience, because of how much tension is generated inbetween matches. This is why they are so exciting, and fun, in comparison to individual leagues such as the GSL.
I LOVE both.. they are both insanely fun and exciting for me, but I think the GSTL has that little something extra to it, that makes it be a little nicer. However, I think that could change when the real geniuses and stars in SC2 start rising. Yea, we have MC, MVP, nestea for now, but they don't have the star power of BW figures like Bisu, Flash, Jaedong, or July, Boxer and NaDa in their prime.
The bonjwas of SC2 have yet to appear. So SC2 can only get more exciting in times to come.
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GSTL is more interesting, newer upcoming players like MMA would never shine without such a league. It seems like some of these guys should be in Code S for the amazing quality of games they display, but I'm guessing the qualifiers are so devastating to get through that one or two bad games can come back to bite you in the ass.
So far I'm going to say that both of the team leagues made for more drama and fun strategy considering how the coaches pick their lineups. Less stress for the players since everyone is relying on their team as a whole to come through. That also allows for more creative strategies to come to the surface and make SC2 a fun game to watch.
I can only imagine what it would be like if they made the team leagues a little longer (closer to 2 or 3 weeks) with more teams...etc.
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LOL at that guy who thought GSTL was actually 2v2/3v3/4v4 and was trying to defend it.....
I really liked watching last season's GSTL, haven't got around to buying my VOD ticket for this season's yet. However, I don't think I've found it more exciting than GSL, but probably on at least equal level. I'm a hugely competitive individual, and most of my favourite sports/games are as such. I identify with a 1v1, I enjoy watching the mental games that occur between two players over the course of five or seven games, and all other aspects of individual competition. That's why I enjoyed the S4 finals more than any finals before it, since MVP played the perfect mental/intimidation games against MKP, and we are all familiar with the results.
Also, the players don't seem to take GSTL as seriously....
I guess I'll take this opportunity to say it, we need longer matches in both the team and individual leagues. In GSL, from the Ro8 on should be Bo7 format imo, with the finals being a Bo9. That way you can get different playstyles in there, and enjoy the players fighting it out mentally, trying to throw the other guy off his game.
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I feel like the GSTL has better games overall than GSL's code A and code S division. I believe this is due to the fact we get to see many more play styles because of fresh new faces who would otherwise never get the opportunity to play in code A and code S. Also, contrary to what people may believe the players in code B who play in the GSTL are still just as good if not better in some cases than the code S superstars. SC2 isn't like WC3 where the very top players are literally untouchable, it's a much more even playing field than people will admit.
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Personally i find 90% of GSL games inc the finals to be very very dull to the point were i didnt even bother watching this season. But i have to say i LOVE the GSTL and the format alot more and find it way more entertaining.
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I think the drama and rivalry really powers the GSTL. There's little real conflict in the GSL besides finals.
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team league is always more exciting. You get to see players you don't really see taking out big names. And come on who doesn't love to watch there favorite player or any player just all kill a team.
I even love the other format where it comes down to Ace match all the time.Team league is just exicting in general
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GTSL gives a chance for other Code B or lower guys to show the world what they are capable of, and that certainly surprises people, like for example, Squirtle: he performed the first AK and also placed very well in the IEM finanls. Slayers_Alica and Jjob also showed potential in the GTSL and also showed how freaking good they are even before they went into Code A tournament.
GTSL SOO ENTERTAINING!! LOVE ITT
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Anyone who watched competitive broodwar can tell you how awesome the teamleague format is. I think the only thing holding GSTL back right now is that the league just isn't high profile enough, and they don't have a long-running season like Proleague. These are both things that can probably change in time, so I'm looking forward to more GSTL in the future.
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Not that it makes his post any less dumb, but Shinobi was saying that the lack of 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments shows that people aren't interested in any kind of team oriented format, including all-kill and ace game and whatever else, not that pro team games are 2v2 or 3v3 matches. Not defending him, just trying to get people to read more carefully before jumping down someone's throat.
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On March 24 2011 01:18 Boundless wrote:
LOL at that guy who thought GSTL was actually 2v2/3v3/4v4 and was trying to defend it.....
I really liked watching last season's GSTL, haven't got around to buying my VOD ticket for this season's yet. However, I don't think I've found it more exciting than GSL, but probably on at least equal level. I'm a hugely competitive individual, and most of my favourite sports/games are as such. I identify with a 1v1, I enjoy watching the mental games that occur between two players over the course of five or seven games, and all other aspects of individual competition. That's why I enjoyed the S4 finals more than any finals before it, since MVP played the perfect mental/intimidation games against MKP, and we are all familiar with the results.
Also, the players don't seem to take GSTL as seriously....
I guess I'll take this opportunity to say it, we need longer matches in both the team and individual leagues. In GSL, from the Ro8 on should be Bo7 format imo, with the finals being a Bo9. That way you can get different playstyles in there, and enjoy the players fighting it out mentally, trying to throw the other guy off his game.
Not sure if the players seem to take GSTL lightly but if that is indeed true it might have to do with the much smaller prize pool.
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On March 24 2011 01:38 adius wrote:
Not that it makes his post any less dumb, but Shinobi was saying that the lack of 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments shows that people aren't interested in any kind of team oriented format, including all-kill and ace game and whatever else, not that pro team games are 2v2 or 3v3 matches. Not defending him, just trying to get people to read more carefully before jumping down someone's throat.
But there ARE plenty of teamleagues outside the GSTL.
SGL? GPL? People ARE interested in this kind of format.
Shinobi just had no idea what he was talking about, and commuted Teamleague with 2v2/3v3/4v4
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On March 24 2011 01:39 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:38 adius wrote:
Not that it makes his post any less dumb, but Shinobi was saying that the lack of 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments shows that people aren't interested in any kind of team oriented format, including all-kill and ace game and whatever else, not that pro team games are 2v2 or 3v3 matches. Not defending him, just trying to get people to read more carefully before jumping down someone's throat. But there ARE plenty of teamleagues outside the GSTL. SGL? GPL? People ARE interested in this kind of format. Shinobi just had no idea what he was talking about, and commuted Teamleague with 2v2/3v3/4v4
SGL, GPL had only one major drawback. It wasnt winer stays format.
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On March 24 2011 01:39 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:38 adius wrote:
Not that it makes his post any less dumb, but Shinobi was saying that the lack of 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments shows that people aren't interested in any kind of team oriented format, including all-kill and ace game and whatever else, not that pro team games are 2v2 or 3v3 matches. Not defending him, just trying to get people to read more carefully before jumping down someone's throat. But there ARE plenty of teamleagues outside the GSTL. SGL? GPL? People ARE interested in this kind of format. Shinobi just had no idea what he was talking about, and commuted Teamleague with 2v2/3v3/4v4
Yeah like I said, it was still a crazy post, probably even worse than what people thought he meant, but people need to slow down and read more carefully nonetheless.
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I agree with the OP, I find GSTL infinitely more exciting than the individual GSL. Maybe it's because I'm American, or what not, but I find all the drama and ceremonies really awesome (however corny they may be). I also enjoy the mind games that go on between the teams in choosing who will play. And, I think overall the games are much more exciting because players aren't worried about playing an entire best of 3 or 5. They are just trying to win one game at a time, and because of that you tend to see different games, rather than whatever is going on in the "metagame".
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There is definitely a new source of excitement coming from Team League that simply cannot be achieved by individual competition. I know I'm always excited to see who they send out against who, especially if they pit two players with a history against each other.
Plus there's always the all-kill prospect, which is fun to watch
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I personally LOVE GSTL , and gotta admit GSL looks pretty boring to me after GSTL ( at least first few rounds )
But I also believe , GSL format is better for players individual improvement and achieving perfection since you know your opponent and can train against that race/player specifically for weeks/days. This kinda grants faster improvement and guarantees much much better games in future ( not yet because after examining their opponent that much , players are generally able to kill them by exploiting their early-mid game weaknesses these days )
I would love to see GSTL prize and size getting bigger tho , kinda on par with GSL. GSL will always be the real deal , the tournament you watch to see perfect plays and stuff , but GSTL will always be more fun/easy to watch especially if/when they grow some grudge between teams and players
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GSTL feels more important and exciting because you have team pride besides the already established player pride and rivalry
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There's a reason that even back in BW people consider PL more important than individual leagues like OSL and MSL. While there is individual prestige to be had, players and coaches tend to care more about how their team is doing in PL. Also, many people are fans of teams and not individual players, so people tend to show up and get more excited over a team battle than an individual competition. PL finals has traditionally had a larger viewing audience than any individual league finals. I'd love it if GOM came out with a SC2 PL, with a similar format. The all-kill format is fun and exciting, but not when it happens every season. I think if they copied the PL format from BW, where the league lasts about 9 months, with multiple rounds and a normal format, with one or two rounds being all-kill format and a postseason for the top teams afterward, that it would be far more exciting and beneficial to the SC2 scene. However, GOM has stated previously that they do not intend to have a full team league, so who knows whether it will happen.
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The Drama in the GSTL is awesome and has so far been really exciting. But nothing determines skill better than a player winning the GSL.
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I think the GSTL's entertainment comes from the drama of the winner's league system, the introduction of new players who aren't in GSL, and the looseness and creativity of the builds compared to normal GSL games.
It was fun to see Bomber BM Losira during the last GSTL finals, both in-game and physically. Watching SlayerS throw player after player against MC to take down the 2-time GSL champion also brought a ton of entertaining drama. All-kills are always awesome.
Back in BW, the first televised game for many top players often came not from individual leagues but instead from the Proleague games. Players like IMSeed, SlayerS_Ryung, and SlayerS_Min never really appeared in the GSL individual leagues, yet their icebreaker game in the GSTL really showed that they are formidable players with tons of potential and definitely worth watching whenever they fight their way into the GSL or any other tournament.
Also, I really enjoyed the creativity in many of the builds used in the GSTL. IMSeed wowed us with brilliant hallucination usage, trickery, and mind games. Squirtle dazzled us with excellent macro play and cool mothership usage. SlayerS_Min built over 100 banelings and caused nergasms all over the world when he nuked TOP's army with them. When a player's individual status in the league isn't at stake and there are still many kills left before a victory, many creative builds are sure to appear to entertain the audience and cheer on the team.
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On March 24 2011 01:39 Maskedsatyr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 01:18 Boundless wrote:
LOL at that guy who thought GSTL was actually 2v2/3v3/4v4 and was trying to defend it.....
I really liked watching last season's GSTL, haven't got around to buying my VOD ticket for this season's yet. However, I don't think I've found it more exciting than GSL, but probably on at least equal level. I'm a hugely competitive individual, and most of my favourite sports/games are as such. I identify with a 1v1, I enjoy watching the mental games that occur between two players over the course of five or seven games, and all other aspects of individual competition. That's why I enjoyed the S4 finals more than any finals before it, since MVP played the perfect mental/intimidation games against MKP, and we are all familiar with the results.
Also, the players don't seem to take GSTL as seriously....
I guess I'll take this opportunity to say it, we need longer matches in both the team and individual leagues. In GSL, from the Ro8 on should be Bo7 format imo, with the finals being a Bo9. That way you can get different playstyles in there, and enjoy the players fighting it out mentally, trying to throw the other guy off his game. Not sure if the players seem to take GSTL lightly but if that is indeed true it might have to do with the much smaller prize pool.
In Brood War, Proleague is of a higher priority than individual leagues as the players are playing under the name of their corporate sponsors, thus advertising their backers who pay their salaries.
The same will be true if corporations start claiming the ownership of the teams.
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i 100% agree. I love the team setting a lot more than 1v1 games. Representing your team and working together is always fun to watch. It's more than just an individual effort, but sometimes we'll get lucky and see an all-kill! Maybe I'm like this because most of the sports I grew up loving revolved around teamplay (Hockey, soccer, football) but I feel we need more of this stuff :D
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
User was warned for this post
Lulzy noob....
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I would enjoy more if not both times oGs got knock out so fast.
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On March 24 2011 02:27 lazyfeet wrote:
I would enjoy more if not both times oGs got knock out so fast.
oGs is Real Madrit... Lots of stars with no plan on how to play and who to send or what strategy to use.
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Funny story, a lot of this has to do with Bo1 format. Bo1 tourneys are so exciting because they are unpredictable and huge upsets can come with ease.
When you get teams involved, you get rivalries, more hype, and a more organized structure added to the Bo1 excitement. That's where all this is coming from. I just hope more teams either move to or are formed in Korea so we can see this league expand.
EDIT: Woot! 500th post and Dragoon!
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Proleague was more interesting in Broodwar as well. Choosing players based on the maps and their opponents etc adds an entirely new dynamic to the game that is great to watch and to think about. I hope we can get something like this in North America - possibly if/when the NASL is a success.
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
User was warned for this post Do you even follow the GSL or GSTL? It is not team games.... It is the teams in a "clan war" and it is very entertaining, however they both have their place and time and I enjoy both. Let's face it the more sc2 games the better!
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I really hope (and expect) GOM to drastically increase the team league in future seasons to be more like SC1 Proleague. There's a reason the Proleague Finals was always the biggest SC1 event in Korea in terms of audience!!
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I would really prefer they drop the individual leagues entirely for the moment in favour of a full GSTL season like in Proleague. Being able to see full teams, the camaraderie, the rivalry and all that 'good jazz' just gets me more.
Individual leagues involve less upsets, less drama and fewer "WHO IS THIS GUY AND WHY IS HE OWNING EVERYONE" moments. There is more room for creative strats aimed at taking out a single player, and other such meta game elements that make it so much more fulfilling to watch.
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On March 24 2011 02:35 kataa wrote:
I would really prefer they drop the individual leagues entirely for the moment in favour of a full GSTL season like in Proleague. Being able to see full teams, the camaraderie, the rivalry and all that 'good jazz' just gets me more.
Individual leagues involve less upsets, less drama and fewer "WHO IS THIS GUY AND WHY IS HE OWNING EVERYONE" moments. There is more room for creative strats aimed at taking out a single player, and other such meta game elements that make it so much more fulfilling to watch.
exactly, i would loooove to see some BW style team leagues
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Revoking my "last post on this topic" to explain some things for people who are confused or unable to see the bigger picture.
The whole Proleague in Korea is sponsor based and without the sponsors there would be no "pro" competition whatsoever. For sponsors in order to receive something back from their investment is much easier for them to sell teamleague competition with drama (which average Joe diggs) than it is to sell single player tournament (less drama, more competition). Now put yourself in the mind of a pro player. You are on Team (Insert Name) and you have 2 options. 1) to compete in a teamleague (backed up by sponsors) which will secure your monthly salary + more. 2) you compete in singleplayer tournaments without sponsors for lesser payday (because lets face it sponsors will not invest eternally into something that is not popular for average Joe to watch).
So will a SC pro play the game he loves and get payed good for it? Or will he try to only play pure competitively without a secure payday?
Now take the money out of the equation. Would a SC pro player rather play competitive SC with best possible competition or would he play a game that is not entirely controlled by the individual player itself (lol Dreamhack)?
We've been shoved SC teamleague games since the beginning because it is in best interest of sponsors. Yes the players get payed well but if they could choose to get payed well AND play true competition, what will they choose? And guess what, even if you don't like something, if you constantly get swarmed by it you will learn to love it. Thats the SC Proleague for you in a nutshell.
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For some reason the games are 100% better when it's team games. Players who stood out in GSTL fizzled when they went back to 1v1.
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Team leagues give clans a reason to exist and train together. It's really awkward to have to compete individually and potentially have to go at it with a training partner. Otherwise, there isn't any reason at all to train with a team. Why not train with Nestea or Squirtle if you're in oGs? I'm sure lots of players do that. As a player I like SC2 as individual competition. For me I hate having to depend on lesser players and I'm sure better players would hate me too for depending on them. It can be really frustrating. Imagine if you're MC and beat almost all their players only to have the rest of your team choke and lose the match.
That said I do like the potential to see more different players. To see guys like Bomber play, even if it's just for 1 game. That and the format is more than a BO3 which I think is too little to clearly determine the better player... though the bigger maps alleviate that worry a bit. And there isn't much build up for excitement.
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On March 24 2011 02:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Now take the money out of the equation. Would a SC pro player rather play competitive SC with best possible competition or would he play a game that is not entirely controlled by the individual player itself (lol Dreamhack)?
Most pro players SHOULD play for the fanbase, and the money (to keep playing for the fanbase)
There will never be a true top player, one who dominates all. And as you keep watching the gsl, you see alot of players fluctuate.
Its just really hard to get into, and you see from final match posts about seating (cant fill full stadiums) of just plain faceroll matches.
Skipping details, team leagues is what this game needs.
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Yeah, i like GSTL a lot more.
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I think that since the GSTL is so short, people enjoy it more. When (hopefully) there will be a proleague in SC2, people are going to connect with the player more. Team kills in the GSL will take a new level. The Dramas in the GSL will be amplified and it will add excitement to an already exciting event.
Basically, we need both to complete the circle.
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IMO part of it is what makes the group stages so great to watch: more matchups of different players. The fact is, a Bo7 between 2 players can easily lose its excitement, especially if the first 2 or 3 games were one-sided. It's just "ok this guy's gonna win it."
But in GSTL, if one player rolls another, he has to play a different player, who may have a special strategy prepared. You never know how it's going to end until the end.
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The GSTL is incredibly entertaining but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's better than the standard GSL tournament. They both have their place, and I'm one of those that'd like to see it more often.
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On March 23 2011 23:49 xza wrote:
I think GSTL should be a full league where you get all the teams that are currently in GSTL and add Team Liquid and MVP (Genius, Guineapig,DRG's team) it could be exciting to watch. We've always been hearing about these awesome players from respective teams who are so good but just aren't in GSL code A or S so maybe this could be a chance for those guys to show that they're living up to their hype?
well teamliquid in GSTL won't happen anytime soon. teamliquid is slightly lower in points wise to IM to join GSTL. However, teamliquid does not have enough players in south korea to participate in GSTL. sad to say, we won't see jinro or huk all kill in GSTL in the finals until teamliquid atleast have 7 players participating in South Korea.
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gstl has produced consistently awesome games, as well as the drama of pulling through for your team in a ace match situation etc etc. I guess because they can send in a player who's good at that certain match up or whatever. whereas in the individual leagues you can have players who are good but bad at mirror matches or something which produced lackluster one sided games. i'm personally liking team leagues more now compared to individual leagues.
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On March 24 2011 02:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Revoking my "last post on this topic" to explain some things for people who are confused or unable to see the bigger picture.
The whole Proleague in Korea is sponsor based and without the sponsors there would be no "pro" competition whatsoever. For sponsors in order to receive something back from their investment is much easier for them to sell teamleague competition with drama (which average Joe diggs) than it is to sell single player tournament (less drama, more competition). Now put yourself in the mind of a pro player. You are on Team (Insert Name) and you have 2 options. 1) to compete in a teamleague (backed up by sponsors) which will secure your monthly salary + more. 2) you compete in singleplayer tournaments without sponsors for lesser payday (because lets face it sponsors will not invest eternally into something that is not popular for average Joe to watch).
So will a SC pro play the game he loves and get payed good for it? Or will he try to only play pure competitively without a secure payday?
Now take the money out of the equation. Would a SC pro player rather play competitive SC with best possible competition or would he play a game that is not entirely controlled by the individual player itself (lol Dreamhack)?
We've been shoved SC teamleague games since the beginning because it is in best interest of sponsors. Yes the players get payed well but if they could choose to get payed well AND play true competition, what will they choose? And guess what, even if you don't like something, if you constantly get swarmed by it you will learn to love it. Thats the SC Proleague for you in a nutshell.
Most BW progamers prefer Proleague over individual leagues.
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On March 24 2011 02:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Revoking my "last post on this topic" to explain some things for people who are confused or unable to see the bigger picture.
The whole Proleague in Korea is sponsor based and without the sponsors there would be no "pro" competition whatsoever. For sponsors in order to receive something back from their investment is much easier for them to sell teamleague competition with drama (which average Joe diggs) than it is to sell single player tournament (less drama, more competition). Now put yourself in the mind of a pro player. You are on Team (Insert Name) and you have 2 options. 1) to compete in a teamleague (backed up by sponsors) which will secure your monthly salary + more. 2) you compete in singleplayer tournaments without sponsors for lesser payday (because lets face it sponsors will not invest eternally into something that is not popular for average Joe to watch).
So will a SC pro play the game he loves and get payed good for it? Or will he try to only play pure competitively without a secure payday?
Now take the money out of the equation. Would a SC pro player rather play competitive SC with best possible competition or would he play a game that is not entirely controlled by the individual player itself (lol Dreamhack)?
We've been shoved SC teamleague games since the beginning because it is in best interest of sponsors. Yes the players get payed well but if they could choose to get payed well AND play true competition, what will they choose? And guess what, even if you don't like something, if you constantly get swarmed by it you will learn to love it. Thats the SC Proleague for you in a nutshell.
A few hours ago you thought GSTL was "2v2/3v3/4v4." I don't think you should be telling OTHER people what leagues are in a nutshell
Admit your goof and move on  Right now you're reminding me of those TV characters who trip over a bench and then try to act like they did it on purpose.
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i think next year GOM should alternate, like 2 GSL then one GSTL (but of the same lenght as GSL)
Each team play each team, one and half month duration like the GSL (or something like that), with an appropriate (GSL like) prize pool.
The added benefit would be that the final would always be awesome and never disappointing (like 3 of the 5 GSL finals were)
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Not that this post is worth anything but a +1 opinion, but yes - thus far, every GSTL (especially the first one which came out for free, Korean only) has been better than GSL
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I love the GSTL, the games are sick good.
There's also a whole other strategic dimension about what player should be put in.
+ Show Spoiler +
OGS vs. Slayers is a great example of this. OGS definitely made a mistake putting Supernova in against a player who already beat Top, an excellent TvTer, allowing SlayerS to chain all-in MC and eventually get something to stick.
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I really hope they make the GSTL longer. I also though really like watching the GSL too. I think I do enjoy GSTL more and I think it's because it's so exciting to see a player sent out to maybe just take out another player, it adds more strategy, cause you really have to understand who your opponents are on the other team. As was mention already if you look at a team like OGs, they haven't done this. They really do have the talent to have won both GSTLs...
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On March 24 2011 02:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Revoking my "last post on this topic" to explain some things for people who are confused or unable to see the bigger picture.
The whole Proleague in Korea is sponsor based and without the sponsors there would be no "pro" competition whatsoever. For sponsors in order to receive something back from their investment is much easier for them to sell teamleague competition with drama (which average Joe diggs) than it is to sell single player tournament (less drama, more competition). Now put yourself in the mind of a pro player. You are on Team (Insert Name) and you have 2 options. 1) to compete in a teamleague (backed up by sponsors) which will secure your monthly salary + more. 2) you compete in singleplayer tournaments without sponsors for lesser payday (because lets face it sponsors will not invest eternally into something that is not popular for average Joe to watch).
So will a SC pro play the game he loves and get payed good for it? Or will he try to only play pure competitively without a secure payday?
Now take the money out of the equation. Would a SC pro player rather play competitive SC with best possible competition or would he play a game that is not entirely controlled by the individual player itself (lol Dreamhack)?
We've been shoved SC teamleague games since the beginning because it is in best interest of sponsors. Yes the players get payed well but if they could choose to get payed well AND play true competition, what will they choose? And guess what, even if you don't like something, if you constantly get swarmed by it you will learn to love it. Thats the SC Proleague for you in a nutshell.
What the hell are you talking about? Many of the best progamers play in both proleagues and singles leagues, as the schedules generally don't conflict. They don't have to make a choice.
On another note: As a resident of Philadelphia, I think most Americans enjoy a somewhat personal connection with their favorite atheletes. Hockey is the least popular of the 4 major sports in part because players wear masks, and you almost never see their faces. It feels imporsonal.
On that same note, watching SC can sometimes feel impersonal. I truly love watching the GSL, but aside from outgoing players like Boxer, it's hard to feel as connected to a SC progamer who I see staring at a screen as I do my favorite baseball player, who I see laughing and acting like a human being.
This is why I think the GSTL is a good thing. We get to watch progamers laughing and high-fiving their teammates, which humanizes them to us. As we become connected to them, we become more invested in the outcomes of their games, and thus enjoy the sport even more.
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I love Proleague in BW. I actually like the regular format over the winner's league format. There's just a lot of strategy involved in having certain players specialize in certain maps, certain matchups, practice against a certain player or be more all-around. Then there's the guessing game involved for coaches in terms of guessing who is it that the other coach will send.
Say a team is playing IM and the next map is a bit terran favored. As a coach, do I send my best terran player on that map because it is terran favored? Or do I send my best PvTer instead, knowing that IM might send MVP and he's weak in that match-up? Maybe my best PvTer isn't one of my best all-around players so getting a victory over MVP while saving my players would be worthwhile. But what if IM sent a different player or somebody who plays protoss/zerg? I could be screwed if my best PvTer who I sent to snipe MVP ends up playing a race he's not good against.
Team leagues introduce the concept of figuring out what your players best and worst match-ups are and what the best and worst match-ups of your opponent are. Then there's the guessing game of trying to match your best with their worst.
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I like the GSTL because, while in GSL there's the player's drive to positively Represent the team, in the GSTL the player must play for the team. So there's a lot more pressure on the player and investment in the games.
Also, there's a lot more tension and anxiety 'cause of player selection.
So ya, I think it's more exciting.
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there's more strategy involved with team games.
who goes first, who backs up, who is ace, etc.
they plan the whole thing up with who goes vs who and on what map and do what kind of strategy.
and 1 person doing all-kill is more exciting than a 4-0 bo7 game.
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Just to point out, but MC wasn't going to all kill, it was 2-2 when he entered
//tx
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On March 24 2011 02:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Revoking my "last post on this topic" to explain some things for people who are confused or unable to see the bigger picture.
The whole Proleague in Korea is sponsor based and without the sponsors there would be no "pro" competition whatsoever. For sponsors in order to receive something back from their investment is much easier for them to sell teamleague competition with drama (which average Joe diggs) than it is to sell single player tournament (less drama, more competition). Now put yourself in the mind of a pro player. You are on Team (Insert Name) and you have 2 options. 1) to compete in a teamleague (backed up by sponsors) which will secure your monthly salary + more. 2) you compete in singleplayer tournaments without sponsors for lesser payday (because lets face it sponsors will not invest eternally into something that is not popular for average Joe to watch).
So will a SC pro play the game he loves and get payed good for it? Or will he try to only play pure competitively without a secure payday?
Now take the money out of the equation. Would a SC pro player rather play competitive SC with best possible competition or would he play a game that is not entirely controlled by the individual player itself (lol Dreamhack)?
We've been shoved SC teamleague games since the beginning because it is in best interest of sponsors. Yes the players get payed well but if they could choose to get payed well AND play true competition, what will they choose? And guess what, even if you don't like something, if you constantly get swarmed by it you will learn to love it. Thats the SC Proleague for you in a nutshell.
nope, you're just a clueless noobie, and would be better off stfu-ing.
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On March 24 2011 05:42 Tschis wrote:
Just to point out, but MC wasn't going to all kill, it was 2-2 when he entered
//tx
woops sry didnt see that properly haha, all-kill is 4-0 right? not 3-0?
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Personally, I like the gstl for a few days. I think it will be boring if it was length of GSL. It seems exciting to me after a long season of the GSL. But I really enjoy watching my favorite players play for Championship, rather then favorite team.
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i like the gstl more than the gsl, but it's kind of a different thing. It's basically just a high stakes playoff from the get go, unlike a prolonged tourney.
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I think there actually was a thread about this after the 1st GSTL, and I agree. A regular league is what will grow the fanbase the most IMO.
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yea i think gom needs to nurture the fandom of these teams and create longer lasting leagues with individual leagues being less common - kind of an inverse of what is going on right now, basically
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I really enjoy the GSTL since we get to see some new faces and great players who otherwise don't make it to code A or S. It has more variety is all, which is why I prefer the korean team leagues to the individual leagues.
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Team leagues grow the fanbase the most. Individual tournaments, especially at the frequency that GSL is going just makes it seem kind of bleh.
Hell a lot of the team "drama" filters over into the individual tournaments anyway. Proleague got really really big in Korea and some of the rivalries and such carried over into the OSL/MSL.
Only good things can come from GSTL
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I just want to pitch in and agree that team leagues are the best. I'm hoping for more of this.
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GSL is boring most of the time. I mean look at the finals this time around.. I wasn't really engaged. Could be that im terran but it wasn't very entertaining. I prefer GSTL just because the winners league style is so engaging and fun to watch even if the games aren't.
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I think the single-game, play-til-you-lose format adds to the excitement, watching someone 3-kill or all-kill a team is pretty epic.
The other factor is that professional teams just do a better job of seeding than the current GSL. A professional team is going to do a better job of picking their best player for a match than the GSL points will, at least until some time has passed so players filter into the correct code (S, A, or B)
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I love the team league because it is a great change of pace and the different strategies are really interesting. You also get to see a lot of lesser known players that pull out unique strategies geared specifically for their opponent.
You also get to see a bit more personality with the players. That is something I think SC2 needs more of. You need celebrations, villains, and people you root for. The GSTL seems to foster some rivalries and get the players excited. I want to see emotion when people win and lose.
I love everything about it. However, I think it would get boring if they did it to often. I love how it is used to fill the time between the GSL seasons. Right now I really enjoy it but don't want it to get to overdone... sometimes less is more right now the GSTL is paced in a good way to break things up.
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I prefer proleague in bw over MSL/OSL just because of the amount of players we get to see and the sheer amount of games.
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GSTL is pretty awesome so far. There's been some amazing plays from people have yet to make it into Code A.
I gotta admit that when BW was still strong i was really skeptical about the chances of SC2 to impress me and I'm happy to say that SC2 is bringing it strong and I think has done justice to the SC name.
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I am loving the teamleague, though OP should have def included a poll.
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Hmmm I like GSL more because in both GSTL's oGs has lost early, and I love that team... For real though, I like GSL better because I get to see more play from the players I like rather than no-namers, and in general get to see slightly higher level play.
Basically, I love the GSTL for its entertainment value (The BM and ceremonies are amazing), but the GSL is where its at for the latest builds, trends, and timings, which is what I'm more interested in (As well as MC BM), although the GSTL HAS brought out the 3 stalker 3-gate robo.
I would much rather there be a constant winner's league type competition that occurs seperate of the GSL so I can see my favorite teams and players (as well as the up-and-coming) play even if they've been eliminated/not qualified from/for the GSL!
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Last night was the first time i'd really watched it, and i loved it
I only watched until the Bomber v MMA game finished, but that game alone was way better than alot of the GSL games.
I do like the round robin feel to it. I thought the Code S group games were a bit like this, but there's the added spice of which player plays next, and considering it can be any race, really means that the best overall player benefits most from the variety of opponents.
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GSTL is (right now) just slightly better than GSL in my opinion. Cause right now, it seems like the Ro8 was all just 1 player stomping another team (I didn't buy a ticket until after seeing if the Ro4 games were good today ) I think that GSTL would definitely benefit a lot more if they had it with more of a Proleague-style format. It would be so cool if after each GSL, they have a 'round' of GSTL.
I know that winner's league is really exciting, but after a while, I want to see some of the other players on teams. I'd like it if maybe they alternated and had like 1 'normal round' then 1 'winner's league round'. Then, at the end of the year or something, there could be a finals in a different location, let's say Gwanganri (:D).
Edit: Clarification of my definition of round.
Not what they're doing right now, but round robin style like PL.
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Prize pool for GSTL has to be increased.... even at the cost of of lowering the prize pool of GSL ^____^ increase the air time, get sponsors for GSTL , don't have the tourney in elimination brackets..... then we finally probably have TEAM LEAGUE
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GSTL is awesome, but there's not enough. BW Proleague delivered regular entertainment. I hope GOM or someone establishes a real league one day, playoffs and all. The current BW format is perfect but even getting close to it would be good enough for me.
Maybe one day we can have team leagues in other countries, and then a champions league like futbol? One can dream right?
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I find both to be just as good, they don't offer the same kind of entertainment and both are quite exciting either way
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I love GSTL more because they finish all the matches in like 1week and we get to watch a lot of matches. GSL takes so long in between to finish all the bracket.
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One thing and one thing alone makes the GSTL the greater event: "She's got the eyes of a panther!"
I do enjoy the BM and outright crazy games that get played in the GSTL as it occurs much more than the GSL.
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I would totally praise GOMtv if they made a team pro league like the BW one with a 6 round season to qualify for a top 4 playoffs (since there's only 8 teams as of right now). I don't see why having both that and the GSL at the same time could be a bad thing it would keep constant action for viewers to watch and pay for and way more opportunity for players and teams to get their names out other than in a small 4 day team tourney in between GSLs.
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I was getting pretty bored of pro starcraft until i started watching the GSTL, there is a reason why team sports tend to be vastly more popular than individual ones.
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On March 24 2011 05:01 Datum wrote:
On another note: As a resident of Philadelphia, I think most Americans enjoy a somewhat personal connection with their favorite atheletes. Hockey is the least popular of the 4 major sports in part because players wear masks, and you almost never see their faces. It feels imporsonal.
This is kind of off-topic, but hockey players don't wear masks (except the goalies) -- they wear helmets, although some have clear visors over their eyes. Their faces are pretty visible though. I think the reason Hockey isn't as big in the US has more to do with the incredible popularity of other sports like baseball and football, and the fact that (unlike in Canada) there isn't much of a culture around hockey. Up here in the frozen North we live and breathe this stuff. I can recognize all the top players by their faces, and most of the players on my home team.
On topic: I love the GSTL, but as other posters have said, we need both. You need the GSL to make the superstars so that the GSTL can make it exciting to see if they will all-kill or get taken out by a relatively unknown player. Just like in BW, where I love watching Oz put out Jaedong because I've had so much enjoyment watching him win five individual titles.
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I think people like GSTL more because it's appeared less frequently.
In BW, proleague/winner's league is on all the time, but I believe the individual leagues get more attention.
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While I like GSTL, I think with SC2 in the state that it's in, I wouldn't mind seeing them go to the other method of team battles (players can play at most one game plus ace)
Would be way more strategic for the coaches, plus it would let some of the newer players shine.
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The team dynamic cannot be matched. I like to see the personality in each team, and you can definitely identify the little quirks and personalities of each team and you can somewhat feel a greater bond between players that you simply do not get in the normal GSL. It also seems like the players enjoy themselves more than the normal GSLs. I would like to think because there is no possibility of a team kill but it is probably mostly because there seems to be less pressure due to the clan mentality.
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Wow, overwhelming majority for GSTL huh? I've only been watching the GSL, guess it's time to tune in to GSTL as well. ^^
If it's really that much better, I'm freaking excited!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50129 Posts
I think that it would be even better if it followed Proleague format rather than the Winner's League All-Kill format.
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On March 24 2011 10:50 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I think that it would be even better if it followed Proleague format rather than the Winner's League All-Kill format.
Yeah, this would be awesome because it would force us to see more matchups between a larger pool of players instead of having the team bonjwa take everyone out. I think a good mix would be appropriate.
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I like them both equally.
Why there is no alternative option on the pool?
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I am surprised that more people prefer GSTL. Personally I like both and think the should overthink their concept of the teamleague. I would prefer to watch something similiar to the BW Proleague. Now we have just one week with team-games and thats not enough.
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I like the GSTL way more than the GSL when it comes to the drama and excitement. We get to see players who haven't made the Code A or S come in and kick some serious ass! What I think would be cool for the next time they do a GSTL is to do it 4v4 style. Make it a Bo3 4v4. That would be nuts to commentate but that would definately be action packed and it's something different to try. We don't see many team game tournaments. I would like to see something different then 1v1 once in a while in the pro scene.
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I like GSTL because there are a lot of points where momentum shifts. Some of the GSL matches are pretty one-sided, and while there have been a few epic series, I don't think they compare to what we've seen in GSTL. Bomber v MVP in season one, Bomber v MMA last night, for example. After each game, the losing coach gets to dig through his bench and come up with a new player, so instead of July vs MC for 5 pretty similar games, a player who wants to all-kill has to face a wide variety of opponents and strategies.
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The one thing that I think could make GSTL better would be to have 1 slot for team foreigners where all the foreigners in S/A/B get to form a team. As it is I think the league requires 8 players on each team and that just wont happen for a loooooong time for an actual foreigner team to get enough people in korea to compete. Right now TLAF has 2 people in code S and 1 in A but those are the only 3 people in korea so they cannot compete in GSTL. Think if they allowd Huk, Jinro, Ret, Moonglade, Loner, Torch, +2 more compete together as team foreigners.
As it is GOM already reserves 4 code A spots to top foreigners, which comes to 1/8 of the code A bracket. I don't think it would be completely unreasonable to give 1/8 of the GSTL bracket to foreigners as well.
Additionally right now I can't even think of a 9th team that even comes close to qualifying for GSTL, at least this way those 8 teams that have been in both seasons have to compete to not be booted by adding another team.
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Also, as people have said, we get to see talent that has not had the opportunity to show itself in Code A or S that is clearly good enough.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I will always be highly in favor of team leagues. Regularly running proleague has been the best part of Brood War, its a great place for up and coming players to earn their chops and the playstyles/player groups are a lot more diverse. Awesome format.
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I have always preferred individual leagues and still do.
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I'm sure it's been said but I didn't read through all the pages... but they should have more matches like 2 groups of 4 teams so that we can see how more teams stack up against each other. Also, they could possibly include lesser known teams into 2 groups of 5. That may also be an opportunity to include foreign teams since the team leagues are spread out and don't last nearly as long... but I guess that's going a bit off of the main point. The GSTL season should be longer. :-|
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People do tend to do more interesting builds in GSTL.
Is it because the prize pool is smaller, so less pressure?
Is it because you have teammates to fall back on if you fail?
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Without GSTL we may never have gotten to know about SlayerSMin, Ryung and IMSeed and the like. Great format. It also produces some of the craziest games ever, like Bomber v MMA from last night for example. In addition to being a testing ground for new strats, its a testing ground for new maps as well.
Plus all that fire and shit is awesome before the games start
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On March 24 2011 09:29 xza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:42 Tschis wrote:
Just to point out, but MC wasn't going to all kill, it was 2-2 when he entered
//tx woops sry didnt see that properly haha, all-kill is 4-0 right? not 3-0?
Yeah, but it also means his team can not lose any match, I think
//tx
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Team leagues could pressure the player more (tied situation, one more to win) so it makes for far more dramatic, intense and close games ^^.
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I actually wish that more teams could apply to compete in the GSTL rather than simply relying upon a certain number of Code A + S players. Like there was some sort of qualification process available to smaller teams with only a couple of powerful players ranking in GSL (e.g. FOX or Liquid).
Could even seed some teams if they don't just want to buff it up to a Ro16 by giving the top 4 of last GSTL a "bye".
But yeah, part of my personal thrill of watching the GSTL is looking at the potential for unknown players. Too often we see all these code A names drop in and out, and part of the time it's just a bit of bad luck as an up and comer gets a poor draw. So I would love to see a non-GSL-point reliant teamleague with actual team qualifications.
Perhaps GOM could give "points" to players of a team that are in Code B? (i.e. top 200 of Korean ladder) if they wanted to use their current system. S = 1.6, A = 1, B = 0.3 or something along those lines.
Tl;dr: Would like to see GSTL be for more than 8 teams.
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Vastly prefer the GSTL.
Team vs. Team battles are far, far more epic and entertaining than just single series. Seeing a team as fearsome as IM taking on the very impressive SlayerS in the GSTL finals ... I find that quite a bit more epic than an ordinary 1v1 finals.
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So far the first two seasons of GSTL have been simply amazing not only in game quality but the added drama
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Much more exciting, its a resemblance of BW.''
SlayerS is really impressing me this GTSL, became a instant fan when they beat oGs :DD
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I love them both, but would have to agree that the GSTL just brings more drama. The team vs team dynamic of picking players and the variety in styles that you get to see makes the whole experience more exciting.
I also love watching the new players you've never heard of come out of no where and show amazing skill.
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I'm a big fan of both, but the added strategy of picking your players and maps and who to open with adds so much drama and excitement. I really love hearing Tastosis expound upon the good and bad picks and who they would have gone with too.
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i think i enjoy the gstl because the level of play is surprisingly high. Code B and Code A players are wrecking Code S players within the GSTL. At first I was reluctant to watch Code B teammates go against the best of the GSL, but boy was I wrong. A lot of the code b players are Code S material!
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the GSTL is cool because its not so "sudden death".. like MC could potentially go in first, and lose.. yet the next day, as long as his team won, we would see MC again. This leads to repeat matches of our favorite players, such as MMA who we've got to see great play from 2 days in a row!
GSL is fun, but once your favorite player is out, hes out for the season. Thats not fun.
I'd love to see a Proleague team setup soon that is like the BW style, a full season of weekly matches, with a playoffs at the end. That'd be stretched out longer, giving us more amazing games every week.. not just 4 days of GSTL
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thats true i never thought abou it like that. Your fav player definitely can lose and still get a team win and be right back in next match.
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GSTL for a couple reasons. Players are fighting as teams, theres a certain pride and comradery that comes from all it. I think we get to see some more personality from players such as when Rainbow went BC's against Maka. He was just screwing around. But we also get to see a lot of diamond in the rough players that are amazing, but haven't been in the GSL quite yet.
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They should make 2 gstl's each season because they are soo short.
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On March 24 2011 14:19 MuTT wrote:
They should make 2 gstl's each season because they are soo short.
Well 2 gstls would be weird having a team win and then redoing it all over again suddenly. A better approach if you want more games would be to have 2 groups of 4 teams, and a group stage where the teams play each other in each group, and the top 2 advance to make ro4.
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GSTL is more exciting for me.
That is the case in Brood War too. I like Proleague more overall and MSL/OSL finals only.
Proleague is the real excitement for me, so is GSTL.
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One great part of the GSLTLs is that there won't be any annoying team kills which both players and spectators don't enjoy
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GSTL should be extended to a full league rather than a single elim tournament imo
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I find GSTL alot more exciting than the regular gsl and i feel like they can make it so much more awesome
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GSTL is more entertaining for me. Get to see more varied strategies and the drama is nice, too.
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On March 24 2011 14:23 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 14:19 MuTT wrote:
They should make 2 gstl's each season because they are soo short. Well 2 gstls would be weird having a team win and then redoing it all over again suddenly. A better approach if you want more games would be to have 2 groups of 4 teams, and a group stage where the teams play each other in each group, and the top 2 advance to make ro4.
Yeah i agree. I just want more of them
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In GSTL you're guaranteed to see the best players from each team, and you get to see them against a variety of different opponents in the same night, whereas Code S doesn't even contain the best players any more because it's so hard to qualify for and so easy to get cheesed out of.
Also one sided matches are far more exciting in team league, for example I was thrilled when I saw Losira all kill Zenex, but seeing MC 4-1 July wasn't nearly as exciting.
My vote is for GSTL
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What I like the most about GSTL is how much of a baller Artosis is as a coach, his decisions, most of the time, have coincided with what the winning coaches have done (bar the all-kill ofc). He should be the "Rest of the World" coach in the upcoming GSL WC
Also, is it me, or do they cast this a bit more joyfully? I don't remember laughing as much to their casts as the past three days (I didn't catch too much of the first GSTL).
Plus, I think with the amount of upsets and the complete dominance of MC in GSL season five, GSTL, although unexpectedly much better, was bound to excite more people. I mean, when so many of the top contenders are out in the first round, the season becomes more of a "let's see who 'sucks' less" and less of a "ZOMG, ZOMG, if X player loses/wins the next map, we may very well have a clash of titans between Y and Z in the next round" and stuff like that. Or so I think.
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I was always more of a Proleague guy, so I find GSTL matches more fun for sure. I'm not a fan of the current GSTL tournament format though, but it'll probably evolve into an actual league sooner or later.
On March 24 2011 17:19 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:What I like the most about GSTL is how much of a baller Artosis is as a coach, his decisions, most of the time, have coincided with what the winning coaches have done (bar the all-kill ofc). He should be the "Rest of the World" coach in the upcoming GSL WC
That's actually a fantastic idea. I can't think of a better person for the job.
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I would love to see GSTL invite foreigner teams like Mouz, Fnatic, Eg, etc. It would be awesome. Also make GSTL like proleague, boost a little bit the pricepool to make it more prestigious and maybe Teams will work their ass of to get good results.
One can dream...
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Still laughing at the 1st post troll xD
I love the GSTL! Wish it was longer than ~4 days and included other teams. Heck, even foreigner teams. TL, Dignitas, EG, etc.? That would be awesome.
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Would be nice if GSTL was more like Winner's League but guess the GSL schedule doesn't really allow for that. I still prefer just watching the GSL though.
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i prefer the GSL. GSTL frustrates me with the questionable competence of coaches not using their best players and 6 hour streams.
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Personally I think there should be a 2v2v2v2 BGH non-fixed allies proleague with day[9] casting.
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
User was warned for this post
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the gstl games are way better then code s..
maybe because we see players training for snipe i dont know :D
but its nice to see new players also.
but the casts takes way to long..
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They are both great but i think that the team league is fun even if you dont really care about the players but in normal GSL i find it really boring unless a player i like is playing
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Where the hell is the Both option? BW scene is awesome because it has both, i dont like either one over the other, i like to watch both and observe how different it is
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the best part is the unknowns who are clearly good taking out the top players. i think the top players are still far better but when you cant prepare for the match, its almost like laddering and even the best players dont ladder at 100%.
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GSL > GSTL.
User was banned for this post on top of a long history of warnings for terrible low content posts.
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okay after the finals today i am even more convinced of what i stated
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GSTL is ridiculously awesome. Today's games were insane.
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Someone give Boxer a trophy for creating a new empire.
:S
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agree with the above, I love the mindgames behind sending out certain players at certain times. Makes the team league way more entertaining for me
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gstl finals > regular GSL finals
easily, both seasons finals so far have been spectacular.
Hoping we see some more of these players that only appear in GSTL in the GSL
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SLAYERSSSSSSSS
GSTL is so infinitely better than anything else. Anyone who fails to see how much better a team league is I have utmost sympathy for. Its so much better with the tension, the upsets, the stamina and wearing down thereof, I really hope the team leagues outside of Korea really start to take shape because its just infinitely better.
It also easily solves the issue of not giving all the money to the top player in a tournament because you have a whole team. Lets face it, there are tons of good players out there, teams solve this issue just as professional sports do it with teams of their own. Its not inherently a team game, but the team aspect just does so much good for it.
Its almost 9 am and I couldn't be a happier nerd having stayed up to watch Boxer's team kick ass.
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GSL doesn't have spanking! I'd like gomtv to implement a proleague, and do the GSL a bit less frequent.
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Wish they made a concerted effort to make a real teamleague like SPL, GSTL is kinda lackluster being only a week long.
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today's games were nothing short of legendary, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say best sc2 series I've watched thus far. GSTL is by far my fav
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Those games were the best games i have ever seen hands down, I almost cried after MMA won i was just so happy, nerd chills all over the place. and the people who didnt want koreans in the NASL and saying they were emotionless, shame on you. Lets see the NASL have games even half this good, its doubtful.
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On March 24 2011 22:46 bmml wrote:
Wish they made a concerted effort to make a real teamleague like SPL, GSTL is kinda lackluster being only a week long.
But in a way, it's so much more epic.. it's like the playoffs after the regular season in BW.
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I hadn't watched it before, but team leaque is awesome.
I much prefer this over all those code b/a/s leagues.
It's like those old pokemon games you know, send out 1 pokemon that's specifically good vs another :d.
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I know they kind of lack the number of teams to pull it off, but I really think Gom should try to find a big name sponsor to set up an actual proleague instead of just single elimination bracket tournaments. A few round robin rounds and a 4 team playoff seems like it could work.
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Team leagues imho gives starcraft 2 more depth in terms of strategies. Especially from the games i watched today, it's really more interesting to see who gets to compete against who. Even tastosis talked about the match ups a lot... damn better than individual leagues for me at least.
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I really hope they introduce a bigger team league to span the month. That would be absolutely awesome. All teams play each other twice and top 4 advance to the finals. Maybe introduce more teams too.
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GSTL is more fun to watch live, the suspense, the clinchers, something about being there when it happens that makes it soo worth watching.
GSL I find I can watch on my own time, I don't miss a whole lot by not watching live, upsets in Team vs Team is much more interesting to watch than upsets in 1v1
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On March 24 2011 22:52 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I know they kind of lack the number of teams to pull it off, but I really think Gom should try to find a big name sponsor to set up an actual proleague instead of just single elimination bracket tournaments. A few round robin rounds and a 4 team playoff seems like it could work.
true but with sc2 on the rise in china (i believe the beta is about to start for them) and taiwan having like 5 new teams, it could really be a start of something huge for sc2 in korea especially when the chinese fans start making their own progaming teams like for example .WE (loner's team).
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On March 24 2011 22:55 ComusLoM wrote:
I really hope they introduce a bigger team league to span the month. That would be absolutely awesome. All teams play each other twice and top 4 advance to the finals. Maybe introduce more teams too.
I'm sure they'll eventually do that, but at this young stage of the game they probably just want to build quick excitement/exposure with instant playoff formats. It helps increase their viewer base and get an attachment rate to the teams and players before going on to a seasonal format.
Also there are already quite a few more teams, they just weren't top8 in points.
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GSTL is much better than the regular leagues. There is an external strategic component to the Team League in addition to the regular in game strategy.
prime example of that line of thought was SlayerS throwing nothing but terrans at MVP. Whether it was to wear him down or reveal to their ace guy what he could expect it was a definite strategic decision.
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No GSL, no ground work for GSTL.
<3 Gom, keep up great work!
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On March 24 2011 22:52 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I know they kind of lack the number of teams to pull it off, but I really think Gom should try to find a big name sponsor to set up an actual proleague instead of just single elimination bracket tournaments. A few round robin rounds and a 4 team playoff seems like it could work.
Well the proleague only has 10 teams in it while GSTL has 8 teams so something could definitely be done (and should be done imo)
Team leagues are more exciting from a spectator point of view, even if they dont carry the same prestige as the OSL or MSL (or GSL in this case)
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I loved GSTL this time, way better then GSL. But mayby it just got something to do with SlayerS winning and me not liking MC. Ooh wel
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I agree that the GSTL brings much more excitement than the individual leagues. My Silver league knowledge can't explain it, but for two straight seasons, the GSTL has never failed to entertain me.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 24 2011 23:08 Louuster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 22:52 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I know they kind of lack the number of teams to pull it off, but I really think Gom should try to find a big name sponsor to set up an actual proleague instead of just single elimination bracket tournaments. A few round robin rounds and a 4 team playoff seems like it could work. Well the proleague only has 10 teams in it while GSTL has 8 teams so something could definitely be done (and should be done imo) Team leagues are more exciting from a spectator point of view, even if they dont carry the same prestige as the OSL or MSL (or GSL in this case)
To pull something off as regular proleague you would need a large fanbase and a sponsor willing to fund it, I am not certain but I don't think Starcraft 2 in general has reached that point of popularity in South-Korea as of yet. I mean with all due respect I didn't see that many fans nor have the impression that Starcraft 2 is vastly popular among the korean audience, even though they have great names such as Boxer and Nada. Sc2 is not an integrated part of the korean culture(yet), I don't think it will be easy to find a sponsor who would be willing to fund it as of now. When Sc2 grows more popular, then proleague has a much larger chance of being created.
Offtopic: as an advid Brood War fan I was impressed with the quality of the games today, TvT is more exciting in SC2(most of the time) then in SC1
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In the GSTL, you see titans play and mortals slay. Part of the appeal for me is the frequency of top code S players pitted against unknowns. Out of the lion's den, heroes are born.
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GSTL is way more exciting! But when your gonna pin point the best player GSL is better since GSTL is BO1. But GSTL is more fun for sure.
GSTL would be so amazing if they invited foreigner teams. Shouldent be so hard to do since GSTL doesnt last that many days. Not like GSL that lasts a whole month.
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I like GSL way more then GSTL. There is much more preparation in the games from the players and it doesn't feel as random, overall just a bit better quality imo.
GSTL however has been very fortunate to get much more exciting series and very dramatic games (not good per se).
Teams in what is mainly a 1v1 sport just never makes sense to me. It's like the davis cup in tennis or relay races in swimming and athletics. The players themselves don't take them too serious and they are simply not prestigious, which is by the way the reason they are always late during the olympics otherwise none of the great athletes would be competing in them.
Team events are more dramatic but there simply isn't the same prestige as in 1v1 events and the drama is always forced by choosing a wacky format.
For example in athletics the best teams often lose the relay race because of dropping the estafet baton. In GSTL the drama is forced by having this strange winner stays on format where a great player can be knocked out for their team by losing just 1 game. It would make way more sense to just let the teams choose 4 or 5 players and let those play a BO3 against eachother, but that isn't as dramatic thus this format was taken.
GSTL is very entertaining and has more upsets then the normal GSL but GSL itself is still much higher quality. That may make it a bit more boring but I still prefer it. I rather watch wimbledon then the davis cup...
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GSTL is definetely more fun and exciting.
+ Show Spoiler +seeing SlayerS win GSTL was the most epic moment in SC2 up to date. The underdogs beat oGs, ST and IM and a code A player like MMA stepped up taking down MC, July and Mvp in the Ace match of the final. Incredible!!!!
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On March 24 2011 22:49 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 22:46 bmml wrote:
Wish they made a concerted effort to make a real teamleague like SPL, GSTL is kinda lackluster being only a week long. But in a way, it's so much more epic.. it's like the playoffs after the regular season in BW.
Still not a fan, I'd prefer playoffs to mean something not just to be based upon like 3 bo5's.
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
User was warned for this post
Talk about stupidity...
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The team league format is far superior.
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On March 24 2011 23:23 Markwerf wrote:
I like GSL way more then GSTL. There is much more preparation in the games from the players and it doesn't feel as random, overall just a bit better quality imo.
GSTL however has been very fortunate to get much more exciting series and very dramatic games (not good per se).
Teams in what is mainly a 1v1 sport just never makes sense to me. It's like the davis cup in tennis or relay races in swimming and athletics. The players themselves don't take them too serious and they are simply not prestigious, which is by the way the reason they are always late during the olympics otherwise none of the great athletes would be competing in them.
Team events are more dramatic but there simply isn't the same prestige as in 1v1 events and the drama is always forced by choosing a wacky format.
For example in athletics the best teams often lose the relay race because of dropping the estafet baton. In GSTL the drama is forced by having this strange winner stays on format where a great player can be knocked out for their team by losing just 1 game. It would make way more sense to just let the teams choose 4 or 5 players and let those play a BO3 against eachother, but that isn't as dramatic thus this format was taken.
GSTL is very entertaining and has more upsets then the normal GSL but GSL itself is still much higher quality. That may make it a bit more boring but I still prefer it. I rather watch wimbledon then the davis cup...
as a viewer I just want to have my popcorn and coke and have periodic 10 minutes of breathless excitement seizures. GSTL gives me that. no need to discuss ideals imo. GSTL has a beginning, a story and an end. it has its own character. I won't change it to anything.
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I loved both seasons of gstl, but i am not sure if it's just the system that is good or it was just good circumstances, who knows. maybe the 3rd season will be boring like most gsl seasons.
i am happy for SlayerS, they looked so happy when they won ^---^
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I always enjoyed the team leagues in broodwar a lot, and are happy to see them in sc2.
Gom has done a great job trying to provide as much content and enjoyment for us.
+ Show Spoiler +Plus I love Lim Yo Hwan and i'm so happy with the finals of the team league.
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Both GSTL finals were epic so far 9 games !!!
GSTL > GSL
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I don't see why it has to be an either/or thing. Any individual sport, which SC2 fundamentally is, needs some premier individual tournaments to determine the best of the best. That said, teamleague's are exciting and bring an element of drama to the proceedings not found elsewhere.
Both are needed, IMO.
Plus, there's the additional element in SC2 that it is still fairly unestablished. Guys like Boxer, Nada, Moon, etc. would be known regardless. But MC was considered a joke in BW. Others, like Leenock, are completely new.
The more venues there are, the more professional matches are being played, the more chances for players to build their reputations, become known, establish rivalries, etc. That in turn makes the game much better for spectators, because instead of watching unknowns, we're watching players we've become fans of over time. Seriously, would these finals have been so exciting if SlayerS weren't considered underdogs, precisely because everyone knows how dominant some of the guys on the other team are? "Beating MVP" is only a big deal because we know how amazing MVP is, and we only know that because of the GSL.
Thats whats great about having the GSL (Both Code S and Code A), the GSTL, the growing foreign scene, etc. Tons and tons of matches, in lots of different settings and formats, means many different players have different opportunities to prove themselves.
SC2 is becoming an incredible game, and an incredible e-sport, faster than I would have thought possible. When the GSL was first announced I wondered if SC2 could sustain a tournament like that, but it turned out that was only the beginning and its grown tremendously ever since.
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I like both but I have to admit GSTL is more exciting. I also hope this format evolves to a bigger event in the future ala proleague.
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team leagues are much more exciting
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I think this is really random
The most important factor is the entertainment value of the games and GTSL produced better games this season
e.g.
In GTSL the final was score was 5-4 with an epic 30minutes deciding game while the GSL final was a one-sided rape
If it was the other way round, the poll would look extremly different
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Winners League format has always produced good tension and drama. Every individual match has a story woven into it, and the things at stake are greater than just one player's career.
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I have loved the GSTLs for sure, but GSL feels like the pinnacle of competitive SC2 to me, it is somehow more pure. My favorite physical sport is boxing and I love chess so its probably a personal thing. Primarily I want to know who is the best player in the world, not the best team or best coach.
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After the greatest match in SC2 history today, I don't think there can be a question of which is more entertaining.
GSTL BY FAR.
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I find the GSTL much more interesting / chill-inducing.
I can't exactly say why that is, but I believe there are three main factors at play:
#1: The series are in general longer than a typical Bo3 or Bo5 in the individual leagues. Even before the finals a match consists of at least 4 games That wouldn't really matter since there are more games a day in the 1v1 league, but since most viewers (including me) are usually looking forward to one match in particular (foreigners playing, MC/MvP/Nestea playing, some other player that you really like etc. ), the excitement really only goes on in that particular few series.
#2: The games are simply more awesome. Due to the format many players with many different styles play against each other all the time, a lot of upsets happen and many unknown players get a chance to shine.
#3: Rooting for teams isn't as disappointing as rooting for a player sometimes. When a single player loses his series, well, that's it. When you watch a team play, one player can lose because he's having a bad day, but there will still be a lot of other players left. You can hold on to your excitement much longer when your team is on the brink of destruction by having it's last player playing, and it's just amazing to see a team pull off a complete comeback.
Now we just have to wait until R1CH uses his magic wand to enable team icons in the forums here
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I just want them to switch between Winners league-format and normal format so that we get a good mix. And that they make it an actual league and not a tournament. PLEASE GOM PLEASE
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On March 24 2011 23:50 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
I think this is really random
The most important factor is the entertainment value of the games and GTSL produced better games this season
e.g.
In GTSL the final was score was 5-4 with an epic 30minutes deciding game while the GSL final was a one-sided rape
If it was the other way round, the poll would look extremly different
Not true. Look at the same polls in Brood war and I bet you my life that the results will be the same.
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On March 25 2011 00:03 Slakter wrote:
I just want them to switch between Winners league-format and normal format so that we get a good mix. And that they make it an actual league and not a tournament. PLEASE GOM PLEASE
i believe it would happen if the infrastructure is in place (more teams catching the eye of sponsors, more up and coming new players, creation of more teams). so far they are just setting the foundations.
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Probably a dumb question, but google seems to be failing me. Where do you watch GSTL games?
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The thing I think is interesting is that without the normal GSL we wouldnt know exactly who the great players where and MMA's giant slaying wouldn't mean as much. I think they work very well hand in hand.
Don't think anyone was suggesting getting rid of GSL in favor of GSTL, but just wanted to make sure all bases were covered...
Also someday we're gonna get another great final like Nestea vs MKP. It's just been a shame that the finals recently have all been pretty terrible.
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I think the GSL having Code S and Code A split up isn't such a good thing. I found the first 3 seasons of the GSL WAY more entertaining when there was a lot of unknown talent upsetting the big guns.
I also think the format of the GSL has hurt it a little, and even though the quality of games has gone up, I think the competition itself isn't quite as exciting as it used to be (even though i still love it) as it used to be a 128 player competition pre-Code A/S split up.
GSTL is just great to have also and an awesome watch!
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 25 2011 00:09 ensign_lee wrote:
Probably a dumb question, but google seems to be failing me. Where do you watch GSTL games?
They are streamed live on Gomtv, if not you can buy the ticket from Gomtv for the VODS.
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I think people enjoy team leagues more because they're more uncommon than tournaments. It's interesting to see multiple good players vs another because you never see them on a team together. Where in a tournament it's something you watch every day so it's not as exciting
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I find GSTL more interesting than GSL, because you see a lot of player you don't see in GSL yet which are really really good. You also see a bit more strategy (which player to send out when?). And last but not least, we see less cheese because nobody wants to cheese and lose for their whole team.
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I think that especially both GSTL 1 and 2 finals has been the best I've ever seen both from GSL and GSTL. This year was totally nice and I absolutely love it! However first season was better with Startale vs IM. I remember the BM between those teams were quite sick and they're battling back and forth. So close until the very end also with IM winning 5-4.
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There's not enough strategies in GSL proper over a series. If both players open with their standard build and one loses you can see how the series will fall. In temal league if one player is great at PvZ the other coach can swap in a Protoss and take him out and the series is unpredictable again.
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The biggest problem with most of the GSL finals so far is that one side of the bracket usually produces a much stronger finalist than the other. Other than Fruitdealer's run, which was such a Cinderella story at a time when Zerg was so weak, and NesTea, which was a close 7-game finals, they've been pretty lopsided.
Something that might spice up the regular GSL is to have a "tournament of champions". After we've accumulated 8 different GSL champions, throw them in a tournament together; three rounds, all best of 7 (maybe best of 5 for the first round). Imagine MVP, MC, FruitDealer, NesTea and four other GSL champs battling it out. That would produce some top quality games.
Or you could take a group of GSL champs and do some sort of round-robin so that there is constant variety in match-ups.
Either way, putting together a tournament with just the best of the best of the best should definitely produce quality games.
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On March 24 2011 23:50 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
I think this is really random
The most important factor is the entertainment value of the games and GTSL produced better games this season
e.g.
In GTSL the final was score was 5-4 with an epic 30minutes deciding game while the GSL final was a one-sided rape
If it was the other way round, the poll would look extremly different
No it's different.
In GSL, if you have a 5-0 it's a clear game. One player dominating the other, either because of matchup (one plays his best, the other his worst), or one player just not having a good day.
In GSTL, you have an all kill. One player dominating a lot of other races (not just one matchup) and also dealing with possible snipers, who only trained to kill you.
Another point is concentration and stamina. If you dont have to play BO 7/9 you can go all out during one game, go to great lengths to try to comeback. If you lose it doesnt change anything (hell you even exhaust your opponent more), but if you win you have gotten one more point for your team. It doesnt matter that you would fall apart in the next game.
In a GSL situation it would be more logical to get over with the loss and concentrate on the next games, so most players dont look for those "epic comebacks".
So I'd say GSTLs have greater potential to be more epic compared to normal GSLs.
It's also more fun to see a bunch of guys be happy about a win & doing their ceremonies compared to a single guy standing there & kissing his trophy (FBH of SC2 where are you?).
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so i think last gstl was not a coincidence.
I hope GOM will consider making the team league a more central point of their season. Or at least make it on par with the individual leagues.
As mentioned all over this thread, various reasons such as sniping, race dynamic, stamina, maps make the potential of drama in a team league way more likely.
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On March 25 2011 00:50 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
The biggest problem with most of the GSL finals so far is that one side of the bracket usually produces a much stronger finalist than the other. Other than Fruitdealer's run, which was such a Cinderella story at a time when Zerg was so weak, and NesTea, which was a close 7-game finals, they've been pretty lopsided.
Something that might spice up the regular GSL is to have a "tournament of champions". After we've accumulated 8 different GSL champions, throw them in a tournament together; three rounds, all best of 7 (maybe best of 5 for the first round). Imagine MVP, MC, FruitDealer, NesTea and four other GSL champs battling it out. That would produce some top quality games.
Or you could take a group of GSL champs and do some sort of round-robin so that there is constant variety in match-ups.
Either way, putting together a tournament with just the best of the best of the best should definitely produce quality games.
GOM doesn't have a tournament of champions setup, but they do have a tournament where invites will be based off of points accrued in GSL tournaments and top 10 players will be invited.
It's basically a tournament that awards bonuses for good performance over the 2011 GSL schedule.
5) Blizzard Cup (1 tournament a year in December) – Invitational
- The top 10 players of the point ranking of that year will play in a play-off type tournament.
- Day 1 : 10th place vs. 9th place, Day 2 : Winner vs. 8th place and so on.
- There will be 1 best of 7 matches a day
Blizzard Cup
10th place : 1,500,000won
9th place : 3,000,000won
8th place : 5,000,000won
7th place : 7,000,000won
6th place : 9,000,000won
5th place : 12,000,000won
4th place : 15,000,000won
3rd place : 20,000,000won
Runner-up : 30,000,000won (~$26,819.25)
Champion : 50,000,000won (~$44,698.75)
pretty sick to get at least 26.8K if you top the points total at the end of the year
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GSTL is definintly really exciting and interesting to see how the coaches make their decisions and you to play in the given situation. But i cant discredit GSL because its so hype what sanZenith did was just baller and july was hyped up too!
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I think the longer series contributes to how fun the games are to watch.
Cheese and all-in games are much more exciting when you know there will almost definitely be macro games to back it up. Individual leagues are exciting, but it's kind of a bummer to see your favorite player get knocked out in two games and then be gone forever.
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GSTL is definitely better in my opinion. Has a better.. community feel to it.
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I definitly like GSTL more. It's more "chess" to it.
Like, team A puts out a player that is known to be really agressive, and team B puts in a more macro-oriented player that would dominate if the game went on, but it does not and thus he is eliminated. If it was normal GSL, he would either have to choose a style he is uncomfertable with, but with GSTL the team chooses the next hero to go on the battlefield by choosing a player that can cope with the style of Team A's current player.
It adds much more excitement to think around which player that can be chosen, compared to what build a player might use.
And ceremonies is kind of cooler to .
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Im a big fan of the GSTL and would LOVE to see it expanded for more teams, be awesome to see foreign teams like Liquid and EG's
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in theory id rather see a team league but for right now id rather see regular gsl because the teams arent very close in skill levels right now and the coaches seem to be making terrible choices of who to send out because they want to raise the profile for their players sending out too many of their lesser players and what seems to be like not countering players correctly.
aside from that this gtsl has too many terrans, i think i heard in yesterdays gtsl that its been 65%~ terrans playing so far =\ imo one of the best things about a team league is your more likely to get good class balance than a single elimination bracket but it doesnt seem to be the case for some reason..
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The problem with the Pro league thing is that you got to have some serious money behind it to support the whole thing. In BW, that's actually where the investors pour down their money the most, because of the number of games actually play, and the length of the event, and the fact that it is all week long.
Sc2 doesn't have this kind of viability yet, i guess because of the fact that it is not on a national tv station. I know it is showed on Hanibi or something, but it's not big enough of a tv station to justify the investment. The situation with Blizzard and the two gaming stations doesn't help that at all.
I guess we can all hope for the situation to be solved fast, so that the SC2 exposure expand beyond the internet.
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A very interesting side effect of GSTL is that new players arise, and those players will usually be in code A next GSL season, so this hype things up.
And now I'm so scared of a MMA vs MVP in code A round 1, or any other matchup where 2 GSTL "stars" players will fight...usually I'm against bracket fixing, but I hope GOM will do something to avoid this.
For instance, they should allow the MVP players (players who have been awarded a MVP for a GSTL day) to choose their opponent for instance. Or seed them so they can't fight each other in round one.
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One thing to add;
I think team matches are easier to follow because teams provide a larger center of attention than a bunch of individuals. This leads to the feeling of more excitement imho.
I could be wrong though.
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I really hope that GOM or some other company puts more resources into the GSTL since it would be quite awesome to have it on a more regular basis.
Right now, the GOM tournaments are quite linear. GSL to GSTL to GSL, alternating without overlapping with a few cool events thrown in there like the World Team League. This is much unlike BW, where Proleague would be run regularly alongside and parallel to the OSL and MSL, thus allowing us to sometimes have up to 3 events running alongside simultaneously. I really hope that some sort of broadcasted SC2 team league can be created to run parallel to the actual GSL so that we can get more of this awesomeness.
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On March 25 2011 03:38 MrCon wrote:
And now I'm so scared of a MMA vs MVP in code A round 1
Naaah don't worry ,
+ Show Spoiler +it'll be MVP vs Leenock at first round
Kidding aside , I'm pretty sure GOM will reconsider a bigger team league idea if GSTL subscription numbers get high enough. I mean they don't have the luxury to do whatever they want after all , they have to ( and probably gladly ) please their costumers and viewer base.
On the other hand , I feel a big portion of GSL viewers doesn't even know about GSTL. Of course most of the TL users know & love it but I doubt it's that well known among casual followers. GSTL needs more ad , love and hype I guess.
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Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
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On March 25 2011 04:07 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 03:38 MrCon wrote:
And now I'm so scared of a MMA vs MVP in code A round 1 Naaah don't worry , + Show Spoiler +it'll be MVP vs Leenock at first round Kidding aside , I'm pretty sure GOM will reconsider a bigger team league idea if GSTL subscription numbers get high enough. I mean they don't have the luxury to do whatever they want after all , they have to ( and probably gladly ) please their costumers and viewer base. On the other hand , I feel a big portion of GSL viewers doesn't even know about GSTL. Of course most of the TL users know & love it but I doubt it's that well known among casual followers. GSTL needs more ad , love and hype I guess.
Can you imagine!!! That would be so wrong if it would happen. Poor Leenock, knowing his luck, it'll probably happen.
Is there a qualification for the next Code A soon, or the same guys return? I hope that Min, Ryung, Yonghwa, Bomber, Squirtle, ZerO and DongRae gets a chance at it.
I mean, Bomber is the only player who has defeated MMA if I'm not wrong.
By the way guys, what are your favorite matches of the tournament?
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On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
lol? The finals alone are totally worth it. And I live in Brazil man, I have to work much more than an average person at USA to get $5.
On March 25 2011 04:07 Tiax;mous wrote:
I'm pretty sure GOM will reconsider a bigger team league idea if GSTL subscription numbers get high
Imagine if we had enough memebrs of TL to participate? Oh man the drama, the hype, the tension!
//tx
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I love the gstl way more, you get to see more players play the tensions higher and pressure is more as if you lose you dont just let yourself down, but other players too. Im just extremely annoyed at my internet provider (uni net) blocking gom and stuff i have to watch it at my friends or find some obscure download
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
I'm guessing (/hoping) this is sarcasm, 5 dollar is like 3.50 euros... Thats, pretty much for free. 3.50 euro's for several hours of entertainment, talk about getting your moneys worth!
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On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
This is probably one of the more stupid comments ive read. Most people spend $5 for a bag of chips and a pop, or something else just as wasteful. Getting 30-40 amazingly high calibur games is most definitely worth it. I dunno why people always seem to rage over the smallest of fees.
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After seeing the results of the GSTL... these seasons need to be longer!!! Two amazing seasons with awesome results... give us more!
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i also think its helped a lot, thats in 1v1 end up feeling a race torunament... T players cheers for Terran players, Z for Z, P for P... but here, it wasnt about a zerg/terran/toss win, but a team win... and i found myself pretty happy seeing Terrans beating Zerg for example, wich dont ussually happen on 1v1, i think team battle, helps us to take our ego out of the game (yes even as a watcher), and lets us just cheers for the players we just like the most
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Well for me it's that I disapprove with the whole GSL system of code a and s and whatnot.
Furthermore GSTL has produced very very exciting matches thus far, and the best matches overall were GSTL games.
So for me the teamleague is definitely the more thrilling choice to watch.
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On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
Jesus christ how poor are you. The poll on front page says like 85% of TL likes it better than GSL, they produce ~5 hours of games a day and you wont plunk down 1/2 the cost of hollywood's latest garbage for all that content?
skip your cappuccino tomorrow and buy a ticket.
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In my opinion, GSTL is better to watch than GSL! GSTL is quite so good!
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GSL and GSTL both make each other a ton more exciting. Newcomers face champions in the GSTL, and when they win, we can't wait to see them perform in the GSL.
Great dynamic.
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I don't watch GSL anymore, for me it has gotten more boring every season. GSTL on the other hand is enjoyable.
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I like how the team work, when 1 player down, he has another to back him up, and the player after that see the strategy and know how to beat his opponent. Definitely more strategies than GSL 1v1.
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On March 25 2011 06:04 mati wrote:i also think its helped a lot, thats in 1v1 end up feeling a race torunament... T players cheers for Terran players, Z for Z, P for P... but here, it wasnt about a zerg/terran/toss win, but a team win... and i found myself pretty happy seeing Terrans beating Zerg for example, wich dont ussually happen on 1v1, i think team battle, helps us to take our ego out of the game (yes even as a watcher), and lets us just cheers for the players we just like the most
That's a very good point I actually hadn't thought of. This is very true.
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On March 25 2011 06:31 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it. Jesus christ how poor are you. The poll on front page says like 85% of TL likes it better than GSL, they produce ~5 hours of games a day and you wont plunk down 1/2 the cost of hollywood's latest garbage for all that content? skip your cappuccino tomorrow and buy a ticket.
This. That's half a movie ticket and not even half the prize of popcorn.
Hell, a large milk tea/flavored tea/slush with boba can get up to $6.
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On March 25 2011 06:48 Pwere wrote:
GSL and GSTL both make each other a ton more exciting. Newcomers face champions in the GSTL, and when they win, we can't wait to see them perform in the GSL.
Great dynamic.
Agreed! while the GSTL has been truly exciting, it wouldn't be quite as exciting if we didn't have the 'legends' from GSL to pit against the "unknown" and "underdogs" like MMA. I think both do justice to each other, i just hope GSTL can become a longer/more often thing!
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On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
That's what I used to think. Then I realized that $5 is half the price of a Chipotle burrito and I could just skip a burrito if I really need the money. Then I watched the games. Now I'm more tempted to buy GSTL tickets than the regular GSL tickets.
In BW, I really only watched MSL/OSL for the finals 'cause that was (almost) always the best of the best dukin it out for the title of numbah 1. Proleague was more exciting (ie. watching Bisu get his 495876th all-kill off Ace )
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On March 25 2011 04:10 Lori. wrote:
Subscribe for GSTL is a joke, 5$ for 4-5Days? Not worth it.
you're from Germany dude, that's a rich country.
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Even in BW I always liked PL more than the SLs.
SlayerS HWAITING! (need sc2 proteams icons now)
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GSTL there's so much more emotions and I love that. I mean the team is at stake rather than just yourself. And what's more important the coaches play a very big role. it really shows what a real team should be like
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I agree, GSTL is 100 times better than GSL:
- Seeing really good young players
- More drama seeing teams vs each other
- Teamwork
- Code S is still full of scrubs
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I personally love GSTL a lot more than standard GSL right now, however both have their own unique selling points. Whilst I feel GSL has more "refined" play, since people prepare for their opponents heavily, GSTL brings the drama and the on-the-spot creativeness that is so entertaining. Of course the teams go in with an initial game plan of who then want to play who, however there are always the weird situations like today when we saw MVP have to pretty much bag 3wins to take it for IM.
Other than the above point, I feel that GSTL is more of a "story" than individual GSL, and it's nice to see the Koreans express some emotion xD
EDIT - I'd LOVE to see the next GosuCoaching team league have the same layout as the GSTL! would be amazing!
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I prefer the teamleague, even though I haven't watched that much of it. You get to see more players and plenty of different MUs. It's also essential for a pro-scene to develop in SC2 - if it were just individual leagues, there would be fewer players and a less competive atmosphere since any team would essentially be nothing but a practice house for the best players.
GSL 5 have been a mess as well; the format has been really confusing, and it's basically just a qualifier, so a lot of the excitement is lost.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 24 2011 00:08 Rean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this... ..................... do you even know what the GSTL is? >.> I think he has close to none On March 24 2011 00:13 Shinobi1982 wrote:
I know very well what he means by teamgames. But 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are meant by blizz to be teamgames. What does MC for example gain from (gstl) teamgames?
User was temp banned for this post. If you're gonna post stuff in GSTL threads with out knowing to a detail what GSTL is, then don't post here!
Since I started to watch SC with team leagues in BW (of course just for fun with my uncle) I really like bringing back those memories!!!
GSTL is better than GSL for spectator view, but I think for tense and epic games GSL is better.
The point is that both leagues are awesome!!!
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On March 25 2011 07:11 KaelSC wrote:
I personally love GSTL a lot more than standard GSL right now, however both have their own unique selling points. Whilst I feel GSL has more "refined" play, since people prepare for their opponents heavily, GSTL brings the drama and the on-the-spot creativeness that is so entertaining. Of course the teams go in with an initial game plan of who then want to play who, however there are always the weird situations like today when we saw MVP have to pretty much bag 3wins to take it for IM.
Other than the above point, I feel that GSTL is more of a "story" than individual GSL, and it's nice to see the Koreans express some emotion xD
EDIT - I'd LOVE to see the next GosuCoaching team league have the same layout as the GSTL! would be amazing!
It is probably too much of a hassle to get an entire lineup available at one time for this style of league. Remember that the GCPL players live on different continents. That is why games are arranged individually so players can arrange them at their discretion and just hand the replays off to the admins.
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On March 25 2011 07:18 gogogadgetflow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 07:11 KaelSC wrote:
I personally love GSTL a lot more than standard GSL right now, however both have their own unique selling points. Whilst I feel GSL has more "refined" play, since people prepare for their opponents heavily, GSTL brings the drama and the on-the-spot creativeness that is so entertaining. Of course the teams go in with an initial game plan of who then want to play who, however there are always the weird situations like today when we saw MVP have to pretty much bag 3wins to take it for IM.
Other than the above point, I feel that GSTL is more of a "story" than individual GSL, and it's nice to see the Koreans express some emotion xD
EDIT - I'd LOVE to see the next GosuCoaching team league have the same layout as the GSTL! would be amazing! It is probably too much of a hassle to get an entire lineup available at one time for this style of league. Remember that the GCPL players live on different continents. That is why games are arranged individually so players can arrange them at their discretion and just hand the replays off to the admins.
Gah that's a great point. I think I was swept away by the sheer awesome-ness of how cool that would be, that I completely overlooked the logistical side of it
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There was way less BM this season though, slightly disappointed only slightly
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GSTL is way better than GSL. Its awesome to have a favorite team, and the matches feel more dramatic focusing on a group rather than one player. Also, there's always something unexpected, rather than knowing the matchup going in. It doesn't get better than having a player nobody expects (like MMA) come out of nowhere and wreck faces. A proleague format with GSL less often would be so much better imo. I hope Junkka sees all these comments here and in the LR thread and does something...
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The GSTL is way more entertaining but OP do you actually think MMA cheesed MC? Or did you not watch the game?
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I think the reason GSTL produces such exciting games is that you can have snipers / match-up specialists. What I mean by this is in the GSL, the individual has to be really good at ALL match-ups or else they will never succeed (unless they get a lucky streak of their best match-up).
In GSTL you can have someone who is AMAZING against one particular race, and practices to be really good at that. This means you can send that person out as a counter to a top tier player. This provides high quality games because if someone is a dominant force (say, IM_Mvp) you can send out your best vs. T player to try and counter them. This is why SlayerS have been so successful, they've gathered a team with high individual skill as well as AMAZING match-up specialization (they have godly Terran slayers). While other teams have focused on individual skill across all match-ups, hence less success.
This results in more upsets as well as more 'unknown' players being featured and having amazing games. Personally I prefer that over seeing the same 2-3 people owning it up in the GSL.
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I voted GSTL, but after watching GSTL last night I have to point out the one MASSIVE disadvantage of team league is the huge 10-20 minute wait between games. Obviously a lot of last night was caused by Bnet, but even without that, the fact that getting a new player in before each game to set up all their gear is actually really annoying, especially when the games themselves are often 5 minutes long. Individual league has the big advantage in that you know who's playing the next match so they can set up in the other booths while the first game is being played.
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GSTL is sooooo entertaining to watch! I love the extra layer of team strategy in picking players. I love getting to see some players on top teams who aren't Code A/S, but whose coaches obviously have faith to put them up against the big guns. It's pretty much the only opportunity we get to see such extensive teamwork within the tournament itself and not just in the weeks/months practicing beforehand. I enjoy the matches from regular GSL but I kinda hate the format. GSTL makes single elim style feel exciting and dynamic. Regular GSL just feels too short to be an individual league. I'd rather see one season stretch over 2-3 times as many games, with a much longer and more involved group stage. Multiple rounds of games where everyone fights for pole position, then elims as the grand finale to crown a champion.
But anyway, I digress. Yes, I think GSTL is more exciting than regular GSL.
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As much as i like GSL i gotta say GSTL is way more entertaining to watch, it adds another level to the excitement. Add to that that the games have just been overall better as well and it's hard to argue.
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GSTL is more exciting at the moment because we get to see more games from "rising stars" and more chances at upsets. It is always exciting to see someone almost get an all kill or better yet when a team comes back and reverse all kills (We have yet to see that.) But with time and when the game gets more figured out and is 100% balanced, I am sure they both will be great and random cheese will not get you into Code S, Solid play and mechanics will. We just have to give it time but they are both great. Nothing can beat an epic match up bo7 between a Julyzerg and MC, who knows what future finals will come to GSL, Maybe even a Jinro and a HuK.
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Was hard for me to pick GSTL over GSL because I love seing the high level individual skill from a whole range of players but the GSTL finals have always delivered and we get to see the new players come up and have a shot at being recognised. My only problem with the GSTL is that it's too short so if they could extend the time by having a round robin style of tournament that would make it even better :D
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In BW I prefered individual leages but now I like GSTL a lot for one major reason:
Coaches sending out players to snipe specific players results in a lot of very entertaining games. Also, there are not as many mirrors or at least it feals this way.
GSL brings so many TvTs. GSTL had some in the Ro8 but only a few (very entertaining) in the later rounds.
So yes, GSTL is great and I will not think about paying/not paying for it the next time. Its an insta-buy..
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On March 25 2011 07:29 Blasterion wrote:
There was way less BM this season though, slightly disappointed only slightly I think we all miss those dancing marines...
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I think it is good, and needed, to have both GSL and GSTL. I haven't watched as much GSTL yet, but the games I have seen have all been really really good. The team format seems to create a lot of interesting games and it is exciting and dynamic with all killls, which player the team will choose etc etc. As several people have already noted in this thread, it is also fun to watch up and coming players such as for example ST_Squirtle (all kill, the IMMVP match), ST_Ace and SlayerS_Alicia and IMLosira. Talented players who might not be in Code S just yet, but has a good chance of producing good results in the future I think.
+ Show Spoiler +Losira and Alicia already in Code S and Ace winning IEM.
SlayerS win in the second GSTL I think shows they have a couple of up and coming players who might do really well in GSL in the future.
I did not think the GSTL would be as exciting as it has been, so I will definitively buy season pass for GSTL in the future and watch it more regularly.
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On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
I voted GSTL, but after watching GSTL last night I have to point out the one MASSIVE disadvantage of team league is the huge 10-20 minute wait between games. Obviously a lot of last night was caused by Bnet, but even without that, the fact that getting a new player in before each game to set up all their gear is actually really annoying, especially when the games themselves are often 5 minutes long. Individual league has the big advantage in that you know who's playing the next match so they can set up in the other booths while the first game is being played.
You don't get hyped up by that?
OMG I friggin love when they pick the player and they get up and walk into the booth with that awesome song playing (which by the way I'd appreciate anyone who knows the name of that song that played each time a new player was chosen to let me know what it is xD).
I get so hyped I feel like a monkey is randomly going to jump into my window and steal my eyes right out of their sockets and leave.
Especially when they pick Nerd Killers like MMA and such who just look at the screen like an assassin looking at his next victim.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 26 2011 05:35 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
I voted GSTL, but after watching GSTL last night I have to point out the one MASSIVE disadvantage of team league is the huge 10-20 minute wait between games. Obviously a lot of last night was caused by Bnet, but even without that, the fact that getting a new player in before each game to set up all their gear is actually really annoying, especially when the games themselves are often 5 minutes long. Individual league has the big advantage in that you know who's playing the next match so they can set up in the other booths while the first game is being played.
You don't get hyped up by that? OMG I friggin love when they pick the player and they get up and walk into the booth with that awesome song playing (which by the way I'd appreciate anyone who knows the name of that song that played each time a new player was chosen to let me know what it is xD). I get so hyped I feel like a monkey is randomly going to jump into my window and steal my eyes right out of their sockets and leave. Especially when they pick Nerd Killers like MMA and such who just look at the screen like an assassin looking at his next victim.
Its more like, A new player stands up.....cut to commercial. 10 minutes later the game starts, which is kind of annoying I suppose.
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in sc2 im still in the phase where just a good game is enough to keep me happy where as in bw that isnt enough, i want my favorite team or players to play to keep me interested.
and for that pl is better than the individual leagues, imo, more games and more excitement.
so i hope that sc2 moves towards a pl, that would be awesome and i am very happy that gom has taken the first steps towards it. last gstl was awesome!
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On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
I voted GSTL, but after watching GSTL last night I have to point out the one MASSIVE disadvantage of team league is the huge 10-20 minute wait between games. Obviously a lot of last night was caused by Bnet, but even without that, the fact that getting a new player in before each game to set up all their gear is actually really annoying, especially when the games themselves are often 5 minutes long. Individual league has the big advantage in that you know who's playing the next match so they can set up in the other booths while the first game is being played.
Well, the abnormally long wait time may just be a phenomenon confined to SlayerS.
According to the GSTL2 winner's interview:
Compared to the other teams, SlayerS’ players took an abnormal amount of set up time.
Cella: We wanted to allow the players to perform in the most perfect conditions and to allow them to play to their fullest.
Boxer: I apologize if the other teams thought it was disrespectful and in the next league we’ll make sure to compensate. I think it was result of poor communication.
On the other hand, I don't think the wait times will have an issue on the VODs, which probably edited them out.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 26 2011 06:10 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
I voted GSTL, but after watching GSTL last night I have to point out the one MASSIVE disadvantage of team league is the huge 10-20 minute wait between games. Obviously a lot of last night was caused by Bnet, but even without that, the fact that getting a new player in before each game to set up all their gear is actually really annoying, especially when the games themselves are often 5 minutes long. Individual league has the big advantage in that you know who's playing the next match so they can set up in the other booths while the first game is being played.
Well, the abnormally long wait time may just be a phenomenon confined to SlayerS. According to the GSTL2 winner's interview: Show nested quote +Compared to the other teams, SlayerS’ players took an abnormal amount of set up time.
Cella: We wanted to allow the players to perform in the most perfect conditions and to allow them to play to their fullest.
Boxer: I apologize if the other teams thought it was disrespectful and in the next league we’ll make sure to compensate. I think it was result of poor communication. On the other hand, I don't think the wait times will have an issue on the VODs, which probably edited them out.
Vods(atleast the Korean, so I suppose the english neither) don't contain the wait times, I can confirm.
PS: game 1 with Alicia was so good after watching it again.
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On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
Vods(atleast the Korean, so I suppose the english neither) don't contain the wait times, I can confirm.
PS: game 1 with Alicia was so good after watching it again.
They edited out the wait times in the English VOD as well as the whole Ganzi DC. I was damm confused when I first came to the live report thread afterwards.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 26 2011 06:16 TheLight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
Vods(atleast the Korean, so I suppose the english neither) don't contain the wait times, I can confirm.
PS: game 1 with Alicia was so good after watching it again. They edited out the wait times in the English VOD as well as the whole Ganzi DC. I was damm confused when I first came to the live report thread afterwards.
Ow yea, I even kinda forgot about the Ganzi DC rofl, yea the VODS don't contain that either.
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GSTL is way more dramatic and shows more personality to players IMO
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Finals were SOOO amazing. my votes goes to GSTL hand down.
+ Show Spoiler +I was sooooooooooo hyped on MVP vs MMA :D
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On March 26 2011 06:16 TheLight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
Vods(atleast the Korean, so I suppose the english neither) don't contain the wait times, I can confirm.
PS: game 1 with Alicia was so good after watching it again. They edited out the wait times in the English VOD as well as the whole Ganzi DC. I was damm confused when I first came to the live report thread afterwards.
Awww, really?
I missed the entire Finals due to sleep, and sometimes, I want an unedited version of the VOD so that I can experience the full drama of these DC events and perhaps listen to some more of Tasteless's "vehicle of e-sports" speech.
Oh well. At least the games were awesome :D
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I like both but i think last GSTL season was better than last GSL season. Both are nice imo !
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
User was warned for this post
Just gonna quote this guy cuz everyone else did. Anyway I like the GSTL way better because you get to see a lot of talent from players who haven't been able to really make a splash in the GSL, i.e. SlayerS_MMA
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 26 2011 06:16 TheLight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 08:45 Wargizmo wrote:
Vods(atleast the Korean, so I suppose the english neither) don't contain the wait times, I can confirm.
PS: game 1 with Alicia was so good after watching it again. They edited out the wait times in the English VOD as well as the whole Ganzi DC. I was damm confused when I first came to the live report thread afterwards.
Ow yea, I even kinda forgot about the Ganzi DC rofl, yea the VODS don't contain that either.
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Both GSTL seasons have been awesome.
Way more fun than the individual GSL.
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MVP vs MMA was the most tense SC I've ever seen. For the first time ever E-Sports kinda felt like real sports to me.
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I hate the all-kill format. It's very exciting, but I don't want to get burned out on it. To be honest, I like the Proleauge format, where it normally has the standard preset 1v1s with ace match (though all the changes have pretty much fucked that), then the round in the middle with the independent Winner's League.
Back on topic, GSTL was definitely more fun to watch than the GSL. I hope they can set up something, once there are enough strong teams out there, to have something as large in scope as the Proleague. It would definitely be fun.
Also, moving into a studio like the OGN one, which is more geared for having actual in-studio viewers, would be awesome as well.
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If GSTL started doing 2v2s, like Proleague used to, I would definitely purchase the GOM season tickets.
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down for some 2v2 action
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I wish GSTL lasted longer than a single week... it's really an awesome show! For example, each matchup between 2 players could be a Bo3 instead of BO1.
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what is that song that was that they played after slayers won
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Both the all-kill and proleague formats have their pros and cons, but I get unusually excited by the extra strategic layer involving picking the right players at the right time (for instance, I think that IM could have won if they just sent Yonghwa earlier) and by the prospective of having upsets because a team will train non-stop one of their "weaker" players to snipe a "stronger" adversary. All the games are so dramatic, haha.
MMA said he practid Dual Sight the most and had 70% of his practice time focused agains MVP. Strategies like this means that a team with depth can go even against a team with stars, even in the all-kill format, as long as they use their depths to train snipers and win the mind games in choosing players and orders.
Feels like Pokemon. : P
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On March 24 2011 00:06 Shinobi1982 wrote:
If people wanted teamgames there would be pro 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 tournaments. Do you currently see any? Face it the top players in each team will mostly dislike the idea where mediocre players would love the idea to have an opportunity to win titles with their team based game.
In the end you will get shoved single player or team games by the biggest organization. And either you love it or hate it, you will have to accept it. Imo Sc/2 is a single player competitive game.
Will probably get a lot flames for saying this...
User was warned for this post
Lollllllllllllllll,
i vote for gstl, but my only wish is that the ace matches were bo3 instead of bo1 (just cus i wanna see more games). but then again, bo1 probably heightens the suspense, more so than a bo3.
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I like it, but its too damn short. They should make it more then a best of 7 for teams. Like maybe first team for their members to lose a game get eliminated so everyone on the team has to play for the team to lose. Because lets say SlayerS is down 0-6 and then boxer just destroys everyone cause he is so good. It allows for the team to come back from a mispick or chosing someone based on a wrong opinion or something like that.
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I personally enjoy some GSL matches, but I really find the GSTL to be much more exciting games. I look forward to more of them. Mind you the finals had some down times, But Defiantly worth waiting for the quality matches to unfold. Thats my 2 cents.
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I wasn't around for the Broodwar Pro Leagues, and I'm not motivated enough to watch the SWL right now, but I can totally understand why people think they are so awesome! Definately voted for GSTL I love the idea of Team vs Team in video games.
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Sorry I have not been able to read the whole thread but I just wanted to get my 2 cents in.
I think GSTL games are more fun to watch from the casual watchers POV because there is less pressure on the individual to do well, and more freedom to do builds/ideas that they wouldn't try in an individual league. If they lose in the GSL they are out till next season or dropped to Code A/Out of Code A. In the GSTL they have other teammates to rely on and some of the lesser known players get their time to shine as well. It creates an environment where you cannot practice against a single individual and plan out specific builds. It makes for more spontaneity and creativity. This is why a team like oGs, who I believe has one of the best individual lineups, doesn't do so well, their players just play too safe and "standard" while the other teams with players people may have NEVER heard of on their roster go out and get all-kills.
The different leagues cater to different styles and players who excel in the GSL may do horrible in the GSTL, vice versa. This is why IM consistently does so good, they have both types of players and know when to use them.
Personally I love both, GSTL is fun to watch for the creativity and awesome games (oGs vs Slayers game 1, even though I was rooting for oGs I loved to see the Zerg take the ENTIRE map). While I watch the GSL because I also like watching "boring" games where both players or just one are executing a build perfectly and just playing technically very well. I know I will get lots of hate but I loved MVP vs MKP finals as MVP really showed how to shut down MKP style. I also loved MC vs July as MC just shut down July's style and never really let him get aggressive (except game 3)
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I would like to maybe see 2 types of GSTL, one that is 1v1 teams and then another that is 2v2 teams.
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Right now the GSTL is better because it contains the best players going at it. All these teams try to recruit the best talent. The GSL still has a lot of people in Code A / Code S who really don't deserve to be there. Right now the GSTL just has more skill and better players competing.
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People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea.
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On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea.
you blame talking about GSTL being 2v2-3v3-4v4's on poor choice of words?
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On March 26 2011 10:04 lindn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea. you blame talking about GSTL being 2v2-3v3-4v4's on poor choice of words?
People playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are wasting time. Proleague/Gstl is a deviation from true (2v2...) teamgames to make it more entertaining. Again SC/2 is a single player competitive game.
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GSTL > GSL. More games, quicker pace, either ownage roflstomps or awesome back and forth games. And... Tastosis is casting it... couldn't ask for more but more GSTL
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On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea.
It's pretty obvious that you're desperately trying to cover up your failure and lack of understanding of how the scene works. The only reason that the very best players would prefer individual league over team right now is because it gives far more benefits to the individual. This is speaking strictly from a western point of view. As people who were raised in Asian society would know, there tends to be more of a focus on the group over the individual in East Asian cultures. Personal glory comes second to team glory. In addition, the structure of the GSL reward system as compared to the GSTL places heavy emphasis on individual performance.
You can mark my words. If official teams are formed with sponsors paying salaries to players that have contracts, with the tournaments offering smaller prize pools as is done in BW, then players would more likely prefer to play team leagues over individual. Winner typically receives 40m KRW (~40k USD) for first place, and 20m KRW (~20k USD) second place in a starleague and tournaments are held every 3 months rather than every month. PL winning team gets a prize of 80m+ KRW (~80k USD) for a once a year championship, with an additional 10m KRW (~10k USD) for Winner's League. When players are paid an actual salary like the TBLS, who earn upwards of 200m KRW (200k USD) per year, the prize money from a tournament is just an extra bonus, and the players have far more incentive to play and win in team leagues than in individuals.
You'll notice in interviews how players always mention that team leagues are more important than individual. This is not only due to the way they were brought up, but also because they understand the feeling of winning when their teams are relying on them. Of course, the individual leagues are important as well in establishing who the star players are for each team, but the team leagues are where all the drama and excitement come in. There's a big difference in winning or losing a game/set when it's only for yourself, but when you've let your team down because you lose or helped your team win, it's a whole different feeling.
On March 26 2011 10:08 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 10:04 lindn wrote:On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea. you blame talking about GSTL being 2v2-3v3-4v4's on poor choice of words? People playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are wasting time. Proleague/Gstl is a deviation from true (2v2...) teamgames to make it more entertaining. Again SC/2 is a single player competitive game.
You're even more wrong here. Proleague included 2v2 games from its very inception until the 08-09 season began, when it switched purely to 1v1 from 1v1 and 2v2 games. It was considered an important part of the league. In fact, Nestea was a 2v2 player for KT with Reach. Reach and Yellow (who were well-known 1v1 players) also made formidable 2v2 players. To say that 2v2 players are wasting time is to ignore the history of Brood War.
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On March 26 2011 10:08 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 10:04 lindn wrote:On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea. you blame talking about GSTL being 2v2-3v3-4v4's on poor choice of words? People playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are wasting time. Proleague/Gstl is a deviation from true (2v2...) teamgames to make it more entertaining. Again SC/2 is a single player competitive game.
I'm so confused. Do you still not know what GSTL is?
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On March 26 2011 10:18 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea. You can mark my words. If official teams are formed with sponsors paying salaries to players that have contracts, with the tournaments offering smaller prize pools as is done in BW, then players would more likely prefer to play team leagues over individual. Winner typically receives 40m KRW (~40k USD) for first place, and 20m KRW (~20k USD) second place in a starleague and tournaments are held every 3 months rather than every month. PL winning team gets a prize of 80m+ KRW (~80k USD) for a once a year championship, with an additional 10m KRW (~10k USD) for Winner's League. When players are paid an actual salary like the TBLS, who earn upwards of 200m KRW (200k USD) per year, the prize money from a tournament is just an extra bonus, and the players have far more incentive to play and win in team leagues than in individuals. You'll notice in interviews how players always mention that team leagues are more important than individual. This is not only due to the way they were brought up, but also because they understand the feeling of winning when their teams are relying on them. Of course, the individual leagues are important as well in establishing who the star players are for each team, but the team leagues are where all the drama and excitement come in. There's a big difference in winning or losing a game/set when it's only for yourself, but when you've let your team down because you lose or helped your team win, it's a whole different feeling.
Nothing I disagree with, SC2 will eventually hit the same road as SC/BW. It's just that I enjoy more to see skill-wise 1v1 bo7/9 game than entertainment that comes with proleague. Comparing with soccer for example, everyone who follows it knows who Pele and Cruyff are. The same people, do they know what team those players played for? Who cares at this moment (no)? And thats just a fine example of arguably the most popular teamsport in the world. Tho SC/BW/2 is a single player competitive game made into something that is not what its meant to be.
And in the end you are building your own legacy not the one of the team you are in (sure to some extend team gets a decent amount of credit). If a player owns up in a tournament, on his fan page you will almost never see props given to the team. Almost exclusively players himself gets all the props.
Guess what I'm trying to say is SC is not meant to be a teamgame, its forced upon for entertainment value.
**As you can see English is not my native language, I apologize for blatant grammar errors.**
On March 26 2011 10:20 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 10:08 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 26 2011 10:04 lindn wrote:On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea. you blame talking about GSTL being 2v2-3v3-4v4's on poor choice of words? People playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are wasting time. Proleague/Gstl is a deviation from true (2v2...) teamgames to make it more entertaining. Again SC/2 is a single player competitive game. I'm so confused. Do you still not know what GSTL is?
How can I say this politely...
Have you cleaned your bike lately? If not, you know what to do.
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The players have been giving good games would most likely get 2-0 by anyone in GSL Code A/S (save a few) as evident by ACE and Squirtle getting 2-0 in first round of code A, however when MC has played 3 games already and then he gets a guy that knows he has to cheese to win and he does just that (SCV all in) then it is not a show of player skill, super nova killed Alicia in Code A but he had a bad game and then that was reversible while in a BO3 he could come back. TL are not a good show of individual skill they show some good game that have been getting prepared for that purpose to snipe said player, but other than meh.
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Starcraft2 can be played 2v2 style if people want to. There is another layer of strategy to the game by mixing and synergizing two races against another group of high levels players doing the same. It may require different approaches, builds, maps, etc. but it isn't a waste of time.
The majority of competitive balance may be centered around 1v1 since 2v2 would be a nightmare to fully balance, but its still has its unique flavor to it that a lot of people enjoy. It is also a little less stressful I think when you have a partner you can trust and work with instead of being alone.
With that said GSTL is just a massive 1v1 knockout-fest and really seems to be more a platform for high level competitive experimentation and allowing newer or slightly weaker players to earn some real life tournament experience in studio and under pressure. It also has a bit more personality to it I would say, making it more enjoyable to watch, even though skill isn't being definitively tested between two players due to the 1v1 1 game knockout nature. But I guess you could say that what strategy is missing there is made up for with the metagame strategy of choosing who to play when, who to snipe who, etc.
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I really enjoy the GSTL. There does seem to be more excitement and you also see more player personality (we've already seen more dancing units, proxy nexus'es, etc etc in 2 short weeks of GSTL than in the months of the main GSL).
My only complaints with it are (and I don't want to take anything away because I do find the GSTL awesome):
- Having 2 teams per night makes it a really, really long cast. Especially if they both go to 7 games. Although this might be OK by itself, it's made worse by:
- There's a huge delay between each game. A HUGE delay. As in, up to 30 minutes sometimes. As much as Tastosis is cool, you can't expect them to fill such huge gaps over and over again. They need some sort of solution to this - and I don't mean better filler. Maybe they should use 4 booths and get them set up for each team's prospective next player (players should give the manager their settings so he can set up sensitivity, hot keys, sound levels, whatever else the players need to customise that always takes so long. That way who the team will pick next isn't spoilered).
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I just watched GSTL Finals, and I can tell you, the level of awesomeness is OFF THE CHARTS.
Very high quality entertainment indeed, though I love GSL and GSTL both equally. I like individual leagues because in my opinion it gives a better, or at least clearer, view of the players' overall skill.
p.s.: Code A May is going to be insane.
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GSTL is overall more entertaining but I believe the focus should always be on GSL. It inherits the true competitive spirit.
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On March 26 2011 10:50 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 10:20 DannyJ wrote:On March 26 2011 10:08 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 26 2011 10:04 lindn wrote:On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea. you blame talking about GSTL being 2v2-3v3-4v4's on poor choice of words? People playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 are wasting time. Proleague/Gstl is a deviation from true (2v2...) teamgames to make it more entertaining. Again SC/2 is a single player competitive game. I'm so confused. Do you still not know what GSTL is? How can I say this politely... Have you cleaned your bike lately? If not, you know what to do.
What does this even mean??
On topic : GSTL > GSL (in my opinion) because many of the best players play up against the wall. A team will pick a player who may not be so good GSL-wise, but one who is trained to "snipe" a particular player or race. The "superior" player in this case must play a semi-uphill battle against an opponent who might be using an unorthodox strategy against the observed standard play of the widely televised superior player. Sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense in terms of syntax or flow, but it's really late at night/really early in the morning and I'm tired.
EDIT : Typo.
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I think GSL is a good place for individuals to make their mark, but the team league simply has more entertainment value because of all the drama and backstory that fills the games.
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GSTL Season 2
/end thread
always wanted to do that ^^
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On March 26 2011 17:13 Mintastic wrote:
I think GSL is a good place for individuals to make their mark, but the team league simply has more entertainment value because of all the drama and backstory that fills the games.
Not only that, but you don't see so many 1-base or 2-base timing attacks that people abuse to win. It's quite understandable why they do it in the GSL. There is $80k on the line, so it's a win any way you can type of scenario. With GSTL, it's more about fun and entertaining your team while they watch.
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On March 26 2011 10:00 Shinobi1982 wrote:
People still quoting my first post :D? The fact that I made a poor choice of word stands (couple it with my post on page 5 for more explanation). Just because I have not been active on this forum does not mean I have not been following the scene for years. I feel sorry for some of you who only have the entertainment part of SC/2 in mind. Mostly the ones who tune into streams to only have a LT or live chat on the side and chatting about the game rather than watching and understanding what is happening in the game. And unfortunately thats the majority of the people that are watching the streams. Think about the "top of the food-chain" players for once. Would an Idra or Morrow allow someone else to take the steering wheel on their careers? You will never hear a competitive "top of the foodchain" player say they are truly excited to play in a teamleague format (unless coupled with some serious $). Will they agree to play? YES (because of sponsors). Will they like the teamgames? dragged out yeeeeees/suuuure + /looking away.
I don't even need to quote IdrAs last interview and the guy has at least 3 times bigger fanbase than any other player on TL.net. He sums it up pretty nice: "Cut the bs I am not here to entertain people". And if you don't like the answer then its BM and drama gone too far, lol.
Also the moment GOM decides to mainly focus on GSTL instead of GSL that will be the end of foreign action in Korea. Think about all the foreigners who have an ambition to play in Korea and the ones already playing in Korea.
Players dont have to choose between the two you know. The individual and team leagues dont happen at the same time. Team leagues are a bigger prize pool and the better players could just always win and if they dont then they dont deserve the win anymore than anyone else on the team.
On March 26 2011 10:08 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Proleague/Gstl is a deviation from true (2v2...) teamgames to make it more entertaining. Again SC/2 is a single player competitive game.
Deviation? Its something else entirely.. Not sure what your trying to get at.
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EPT
