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On March 17 2011 04:43 nvrs wrote:To those who are claiming the game is too random, i ll say look at football (soccer for U.S. citizens  ). Does the best team win every time in elimination matches (single or double)? Not even close... But still, you can tell who are the better players, and in a proper league that would show.
Look at the English Premier League, 4 teams have dominated for 15 years, enough said. Luck can cause an upset or bad form can cause an upset. But in general, the best always rises to the top and stays there, im struggling to see this with SC2.
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On March 17 2011 04:47 Zystra wrote:
Look at the English Premier League, 4 teams have dominated for 15 years, enough said. Luck can cause an upset or bad form can cause an upset. But in general, the best always rises to the top and stays there, im struggling to see this with SC2.
afaik the Premier League does not have single-elimination playoffs
I could be wrong though.
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First of all im not a SC2 player at all so my opinions might be wrong. The biggest problems for SC2 right now are(my opinion) :
1) units hard countering eachother.
2) Changing the ramp missing factor of BW to no vission and no missing of range units.
3) No Flanking at all
1) This is obviosly a big problem when your micro is worthless if your oponents units hardcounter yours. This wasnt the case with BW even if your oponents hardcounter your units on paper you can still come on top with superior micro.
2) I dont even understand this change at all in SC2.What was the Blizzard staff thinking??? You preety much dont leave any room for diverse strategies when ramp gives you no high ground advantage. For me this is as bad as the hard countering unit system
3) I dont understand why ppl dont flank anymore.For me flanking is what made BW battles so great. Dunno maybe the maps dont allow this and with 1 hotkey grouping all your army its much easier to let the AI to do this for you but its painfull to watch when I see protoss units streaming in line against mass marauder or mass roach blob trying to attack protoss blob of death from one side just to get forcefield to death.
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I also feel that the pros I watch have not reached their potential. If the macro has gotten so easy, why aren't we seeing 4 prong attacks with intricate micro happening on each as an extreme example. That would be very diffficult to manage along with macro but surely a genius can approach this type of mechanics. I rarely see two drops happening simultaneously because this too would be very difficult to manage along with good macro. Again, this is difficult but surely possible for someone holding down 300APM. As many have said, the maps are changing, expansions are still to come, and it is very obvious that many new strategies are developing constantly. I agree with many posters that players have not mastered the game yet and I think honestly are far from it.
That's a great point - why can't the mechanical bandwidth that has been freed up by MBS, lack of control groups, and automining can be applied to battle micro? Mechanically superior players will always have an advantage somewhere, even if the mundane, repetitive tasks are no longer manual.
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On March 17 2011 04:45 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:43 nvrs wrote:To those who are claiming the game is too random, i ll say look at football (soccer for U.S. citizens ). Does the best team win every time in elimination matches (single or double)? Not even close... But still, you can tell who are the better players, and in a proper league that would show. In football, you have more or less the same team in the champion league EVERY year, so yes it's not random. Sometime, things can't go against the odd, but it's not like the champion of 2009 will loose first round in 2010.
France = World Cup finalists 2006
France = 1st round loosers of 2010, but I suppose they lost a lot of players.
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On March 17 2011 04:48 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:47 Zystra wrote:
Look at the English Premier League, 4 teams have dominated for 15 years, enough said. Luck can cause an upset or bad form can cause an upset. But in general, the best always rises to the top and stays there, im struggling to see this with SC2. afaik the Premier League does not have single-elimination playoffs I could be wrong though.
Exactly, that is why we need a league for SC2 and when everyone has a 45-55% win ratio, ill be proven correct.
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I also feel that the pros I watch have not reached their potential. If the macro has gotten so easy, why aren't we seeing 4 prong attacks with intricate micro happening on each as an extreme example. That would be very diffficult to manage along with macro but surely a genius can approach this type of mechanics. I rarely see two drops happening simultaneously because this too would be very difficult to manage along with good macro. Again, this is difficult but surely possible for someone holding down 300APM. As many have said, the maps are changing, expansions are still to come, and it is very obvious that many new strategies are developing constantly. I agree with many posters that players have not mastered the game yet and I think honestly are far from it.
You're over-simplifying the answer that you gave to your own question. A large part of the reason that you don't see 4-pronged attacks and simultaneous drops is because it's just a bad idea to have armies split apart like that due to 1) the way SC2 works (deathballs are very much favored) and 2) because the maps are just now starting to get to the point where they're larger and more bases/more fronts can be supported consistently.
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I don't think it's that weird. I feel like MVP is just completely overrated (don't start the hate quite yet.) He is definitely a good player but he isn't the god that Tastosis makes him out to be. I feel like they were a little to quick to praise him as the best player ever.
That being said, we are still far from finding the bonjwas of SC2 and results will vary until gameplay/players become more consistent.
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On March 17 2011 04:55 Backpack wrote:
I don't think it's that weird. I feel like MVP is just completely overrated (don't start the hate quite yet.) He is definitely a good player but he isn't the god that Tastosis makes him out to be. I feel like they were a little to quick to praise him as the best player ever.
That being said, we are still far from finding the bonjwas of SC2 and results will vary until gameplay/players become more consistent.
He went 16-1 and won a GSL. nuff said, but I have a feeling that the person we saw today was not the same person as we saw in January.
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On March 17 2011 04:24 Innovation wrote:
the argument is that mechanics needs to be made more difficult
I just can't understand this. The mechanics needs to be made more difficult ? Like no workers rally point ? Limit Control group back to 12 units ? can't use control group on more than 1 building ? These mechanics improvement are all things that made me love SC2 much more than I used to like BW, because you can at last focus on your overall plan/micro/ stategy instead of losing time sending each SCV manually to it's mineral patch.
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On March 17 2011 04:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
I also feel that the pros I watch have not reached their potential. If the macro has gotten so easy, why aren't we seeing 4 prong attacks with intricate micro happening on each as an extreme example. That would be very diffficult to manage along with macro but surely a genius can approach this type of mechanics. I rarely see two drops happening simultaneously because this too would be very difficult to manage along with good macro. Again, this is difficult but surely possible for someone holding down 300APM. As many have said, the maps are changing, expansions are still to come, and it is very obvious that many new strategies are developing constantly. I agree with many posters that players have not mastered the game yet and I think honestly are far from it.
You're over-simplifying the answer that you gave to your own question. A large part of the reason that you don't see 4-pronged attacks and simultaneous drops is because it's just a bad idea to have armies split apart like that due to 1) the way SC2 works (deathballs are very much favored) and 2) because the maps are just now starting to get to the point where they're larger and more bases/more fronts can be supported consistently.
People who roll with one hotkey deathballs are at best low tier players. Deathballs are actually a lot worse than spreading out your units and hitting multiple expos. Ideally you want your army split into 2, 3, or 4 hotkeys, especially with the power of AoE damage that currently exists. With Zerg's starting to use infestors more, and the buff coming, you will find yourself wanting to split up your units.
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On March 17 2011 04:57 drcatellino wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:24 Innovation wrote:
the argument is that mechanics needs to be made more difficult I just can't understand this. The mechanics needs to be made more difficult ? Like no workers rally point ? Limit Control group back to 12 units ? can't use control group on more than 1 building ? These mechanics improvement are all things that made me love SC2 much more than I used to like BW, because you can at last focus on your overall plan/micro/ stategy instead of losing time sending each SCV manually to it's mineral patch.
LOL, like where to put your proxy pylon.
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On March 17 2011 04:57 drcatellino wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:24 Innovation wrote:
the argument is that mechanics needs to be made more difficult I just can't understand this. The mechanics needs to be made more difficult ? Like no workers rally point ? Limit Control group back to 12 units ? can't use control group on more than 1 building ? These mechanics improvement are all things that made me love SC2 much more than I used to like BW, because you can at last focus on your overall plan/micro/ stategy instead of losing time sending each SCV manually to it's mineral patch.
It makes it more impressive when someone has the ability to focus on strategy/planning just as much while doing so much more mechanically.
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The only thing I'll contribute is that in a basketball or other sport event, the game is over when the clock expires, regardless of how far ahead one team is. In a format where the better player wins 100% of the time, It's still exciting to watch since the game doesn't drag on while it happens. Good player sees Bad player doing something he can take advantage of and steamrolls.
Dramatic upsets and comebacks usually happen because one team plays amazing and the other plays bad or makes mistakes. You don't see a lot of dramatic upsets in football where both teams are playing great. Players will suffer from the same problem as teams do, they just might not have a great game, or they might play superbly. I like that kind of system better than a system where you just need to win more than 50% to be victorious.
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On March 17 2011 04:48 SkelA wrote:
First of all im not a SC2 player at all so my opinions might be wrong. The biggest problems for SC2 right now are(my opinion) :
1) units hard countering eachother.
2) Changing the ramp missing factor of BW to no vission and no missing of range units.
3) No Flanking at all
1) This is obviosly a big problem when your micro is worthless if your oponents units hardcounter yours. This wasnt the case with BW even if your oponents hardcounter your units on paper you can still come on top with superior micro.
2) I dont even understand this change at all in SC2.What was the Blizzard staff thinking??? You preety much dont leave any room for diverse strategies when ramp gives you no high ground advantage. For me this is as bad as the hard countering unit system
3) I dont understand why ppl dont flank anymore.For me flanking is what made BW battles so great. Dunno maybe the maps dont allow this and with 1 hotkey grouping all your army its much easier to let the AI to do this for you but its painfull to watch when I see protoss units streaming in line against mass marauder or mass roach blob trying to attack protoss blob of death from one side just to get forcefield to death.
#1: Units do not hard counter each other. Units can be more effective vs other units (marauder vs roach or muta vs thor for example) but that doesn't make them a hard counter... The way you phrase your point makes it look like you are implying that the game is rock-paper-scissors. It is to some extent, but not because of unit counters. Thors, which are the supposed "counter" to mutalisks can be out maneuvered or magic box'd. It is rock paper scissors because of other factors such as detection, unit count and "omg my units can't shoot up".
#2: Missing attacks is RNG based... RNG = Volatility. High ground still has an advantage via vision. Its not as much of an advantage, but its still an advantage.
#3: Forcefields are omni directional, and chokes are so small that you can wall hug to reduce your army's surface area dramatically. Also because of the small chokes, attempting to split your army to execute a flank could result in half of your army simply being cut off from the other half... which never turns out well. That being said, if you can manage to pull off a flank, it does still have some payoff. Mutas killing vulnerable siege tanks, vikings/corrupters taking out collossi from an angle, sandwiching MMM balls with ZLots so you can storm them all come to mind.
Both #2 and #3 really effect the spectator aspect of the game, but not necessarily how out of control the gameplay is.
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On March 17 2011 04:57 Zystra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:55 Backpack wrote:
I don't think it's that weird. I feel like MVP is just completely overrated (don't start the hate quite yet.) He is definitely a good player but he isn't the god that Tastosis makes him out to be. I feel like they were a little to quick to praise him as the best player ever.
That being said, we are still far from finding the bonjwas of SC2 and results will vary until gameplay/players become more consistent. He went 16-1 and won a GSL. nuff said, but I have a feeling that the person we saw today was not the same person as we saw in January.
Exactly.
Nobody is consistent yet so we need to stop treating them like gods.
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I don't really understand the problem in making the mechanics more difficult. Bronze players are going to stay in Bronze, Diamond in Diamond and Masters in Masters because having the Macro mechanics in is the most important thing. If you want to chill with 50 APM and try to become better in this game you probably should switch to WoW.
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On March 17 2011 04:24 Innovation wrote:Show nested quote +Wait, I remember there being a tens and tens pages long thread of people complaining that SC2 is too simple compared to SC:BW.
Now SC2 is so difficult it gets to point of "uncontrollable randomness"?
Some day I have to keep a log of how trends change, just so that I can copy/paste what people said just 1 month ago. That is not at all what is being argued here....the argument is that mechanics needs to be made more difficult and scouting needs to be made more accessable.
Oh, I see, it's this discussion again:
-Too little scouting tools -> randomness
-Game skill ceiling is too low
I can maybe agree with the scouting thing, personally I would love to have more tools for that. Skill ceiling too low? Bu..ok. I guess so.
I guess a lot of results of this and past GSL seasons have been good players losing to scrubs with luck. I'll show myself out of this thread.
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The slow mechanical players might be doing as well as the former SC1 pros right now, but there are a lot of things that exist in SC2 that allow players to cut corners and take advantage of their opponents who have low apm or bad mechanics. Player with high APM can take advantage of surges in minerals by MULE, for example, better than lower APM players can. As the game matures, the players who have higher APM and better game sense are going to beat the current high ranked players who are now getting by with all-ins and timing attacks and only so-so apm/mechanics. Just be patient.
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On March 17 2011 05:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 04:57 drcatellino wrote:On March 17 2011 04:24 Innovation wrote:
the argument is that mechanics needs to be made more difficult I just can't understand this. The mechanics needs to be made more difficult ? Like no workers rally point ? Limit Control group back to 12 units ? can't use control group on more than 1 building ? These mechanics improvement are all things that made me love SC2 much more than I used to like BW, because you can at last focus on your overall plan/micro/ stategy instead of losing time sending each SCV manually to it's mineral patch. It makes it more impressive when someone has the ability to focus on strategy/planning just as much while doing so much more mechanically.
There's a video on youtube showing a girl who can stack and unstack a dozen paper cups in a few seconds.
Impressive? Definitely. Does that mean stacking cups is fun? Definitely not.
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EPT
