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On March 16 2011 03:23 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 03:14 goiflin wrote:On March 16 2011 03:10 ZeGzoR wrote:
Blizzard needs to add some fun units in HoS. Reaver and lurker comeback? The lurker would see no use in ZvT assuming that it stays in lair tech. In ZvZ, it would probably see as little usage as it did in SC1 in that matchup, although it could force zerg from being a roach-fest to being a hydra-fest, and in ZvP, I don't see alot of places for it with easily accessible detection and immortals. But I would love to see it added anyway, same with the reaver. You never know what someone might figure out with those units. I don't think you have ever seen how badly lurkers destroy groups of MnM in BW, besides with the addition of clumping they would be very powerfull if not borderline overpowerd vs MnM. However that all depends on what damage they do, if they do no +armored then Marauders in great numbers and sufficient shoot and scoot micro should be able to take them out. As for ZvZ, lurkers did not see much use in BW due to everyone going muta's, however as we see currently in SC2 not many people are going muta's, so you will most likely see alot of lurkers. The main problem however is that if you add the reaver in the game with flawless AI, combine this with the unit ball clumping and it would be massivly overpowerd. That being said, there is an interesting point in this thread about the mass usage of the 1-A units(Roaches, Marauders, Collosi). But you can't easily change this without changing the units drastically(or atleast that is what I believe.)
MM pushes come before lair tech in sc2, which is why I said that it wouldn't be a viable unit, especially without dark swarm. Tanks outrange and splatter lurks without defiler support.
I'm sure we would see more muta useage to abuse the immobility of a lurker. Although, I may have misanalyzed that situation, since hydras did like 5 damage to mutas in BW, and weren't sufficient to guard lurks from getting sniped.
But they definately wouldn't change the landscape of ZvT whatsoever. Tank/marine all the way, baby.
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If Protoss get an exciting, dynamic unit in an expansion that fills the roll of the reaver, I'd be fine. Otherwise...
The colossus can be made more interesting with a big overhaul in an expansion. I say allow them to change modes.
Mode A, is like it is now. Walker mode.
Mode B, is more like a reaver. Reaver mode. Maybe it squats down to avoid air attacks, but it's slower, and has to used a charged up version of its lasers in a small blast of some sort that'd be more deadly to workers, but shoots way slower, etc.
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I really like the idea of the slow attacks speed coloss, but not with the damage front-loaded, make it take 1-1.5 seconds to charge up. But not only that, make the charge animation show the beams going where they will attack, starting small, and then getting bigger until they get to the size they are now and do their sweep. This would make for incredible micro oppertunities as you could effectively dodge the colossus shots if you microed well enough. This would then make for protoss needing to flank and/or drop enough forcefields that the other army can't dance around dodging the shots easily.
The charge time would need to be closely monitored and balanced, so that it doesn't make the colossus useless, but still makes it worth it to try and dodge units out of the sweeps.
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On March 15 2011 09:00 Brad_Pitlord wrote:
Give Colossus Khaydarin Amulet.
Well, they may as well, since HT's will see much less use now.
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On March 16 2011 01:50 Prinny-tai wrote:seems fine to me
Last time I checked, "hype" is either a verb or a noun, akin to "to anticipate" or "anticipation". "I am anticipate" doesn't make sense, and "I am hype" doesn't, either. It should be "I induce anticipation/hype".
Creating false uses of the word "hype" (including "anti-hype") is most likely, judging by the post, a failed rhetorical strategy to portray the post as "more correct" or "more supportable". The use of exorbitant, uncommon, or "special" language beyond the ordinary (or the use of created phrases) to foment one's message is a commonly utilized tactic in many posts, but it's seen as rather redundant and unnecessary in most cases, appearing blatant in some cases.
...That was my attempt at satire / ironic mockery, but it didn't work as well as I had hoped >.>
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Agreeably colossi are a bit drab, but I wouldnt change a thing about them stats-wise. Maybe just make their animation or design a bit cooler to look at.
It's funny how people resent colossi so badly lately. With upcoming amulet patch, frankly they are the only thing that makes protoss playable.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
agreed with all points. good post!
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On March 16 2011 01:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I'm sure about 90% of SC2 units are anti-hype units, which is probably about the same percentage as in BW.
This is so wrong its not even funny. C'mon man you watch bw so you should know. Zerglings in SC2: fun for the first 3 minutes and then just go splat. Zerglings in BW: Fun for the first 3 minutes and then cracklings go RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE to expos. Mutas in sc2 vs bw: obvious. EMP vs stasis >>>> EMP vs storm. Mines, reaver, stop lurker, scourge. Heck, mines themselves make every TvX potentially hilarious for both the T or the X. I really don't see how you can say that as someone who follows BW.
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wait let me get this straight. You're saying SC2 is LESS EXCITING than BW? Sorry it's gonna take me a while to process this.
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I don't like colosi either. T.T
Reaver would be more fun but right now sc2 is all about death balls which is causing units to clump together. Reaver would be ridiculous.
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I do believe a game like Starcraft need more flashy moments to do as you said, create more hype.
If blizzard wants to take SC2 to the next level, I hope they do something about it in upcoming expansions. More explosions, be more open for creative play, more micro-intensivity possibilities etc.
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On March 15 2011 09:12 Tsagacity wrote:This was my initial reaction to SC2 during beta and my biggest complaint about it since. The most entertaining aspect of SC:BW (as both a player and a spectator) was the seemingly in-human feats that good players could pull off. It's also why I love SSBM and UT-style FPS games. I find very little excitement in SC2 outside of marine splits against banelings 
beta? we've been saying this since those battle reports came out lol
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On March 16 2011 03:46 Blacklizard wrote:
If Protoss get an exciting, dynamic unit in an expansion that fills the roll of the reaver, I'd be fine. Otherwise...
The colossus can be made more interesting with a big overhaul in an expansion. I say allow them to change modes.
Mode A, is like it is now. Walker mode.
Mode B, is more like a reaver. Reaver mode. Maybe it squats down to avoid air attacks, but it's slower, and has to used a charged up version of its lasers in a small blast of some sort that'd be more deadly to workers, but shoots way slower, etc.
See, now that is a great idea
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Change it so that the Colossus has to siege in order to gain its 9 range, and without it, only 5 range it should fire from. Remove the range upgrade.
Limit the Colossus number that can be commanded at a time to 4, and perhaps buff the damage slightly to compensate. These are my opinion regarding the unit.
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I don't know if you can quantify an entire unit as "anti-hype". Perhaps a safer assumption is that the current state of the game involves strategies and tactics utilizing the Colossus as less interesting then "X" unit.
The colossus has potential but its a high value, high risk, high reward type unit. But for example, what about hiding your colossus behind two opposing sides of high ground and using some weaker units or sentries to bait an army into a narrow pass, then using the colossus range and cliff walking to create a powerful trap blocked in with force fields. Like a baneling bomb trap except rain down the destruction from on high. I think whether a unit is anti-hype has as much to do with the current state of the game as its fundamental design.
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pwahahah id love the reaver back any day
MMM would become competely obsolete
1 reaver shot = 125 dmg
and with sc2's new pathing, a reaver would 1 shot an entire ball :D
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this discussion has been had to death already in beta and when the game was released. I don't see anything in the year or so the games been out that blizzard has any inclination of changing how the units currently work in the game.
This seems like a futile thread.
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Excellent OP.
Imo, the main culprit in the anti-hype is SC2's new pathfinding in combination with splash damage. The splash damage mechanic is mostly unchanged since Brood War. In Brood War, armies were so spread out that we would see waves and waves of units streaming into defensive lines; whereas in Starcraft 2, we usually see huge clumps of armies charging into defensive lines, which leads to a lot more AOE overlap than in Brood War, which means armies in SC2 usually die a lot quicker than they did in Brood War. Brood War battles were very exciting for the spectators because they took up whole screens and you'd still see units coming in to reinforce from off-screen.
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On March 16 2011 03:32 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 03:23 Kipsate wrote:On March 16 2011 03:14 goiflin wrote:On March 16 2011 03:10 ZeGzoR wrote:
Blizzard needs to add some fun units in HoS. Reaver and lurker comeback? The lurker would see no use in ZvT assuming that it stays in lair tech. In ZvZ, it would probably see as little usage as it did in SC1 in that matchup, although it could force zerg from being a roach-fest to being a hydra-fest, and in ZvP, I don't see alot of places for it with easily accessible detection and immortals. But I would love to see it added anyway, same with the reaver. You never know what someone might figure out with those units. I don't think you have ever seen how badly lurkers destroy groups of MnM in BW, besides with the addition of clumping they would be very powerfull if not borderline overpowerd vs MnM. However that all depends on what damage they do, if they do no +armored then Marauders in great numbers and sufficient shoot and scoot micro should be able to take them out. As for ZvZ, lurkers did not see much use in BW due to everyone going muta's, however as we see currently in SC2 not many people are going muta's, so you will most likely see alot of lurkers. The main problem however is that if you add the reaver in the game with flawless AI, combine this with the unit ball clumping and it would be massivly overpowerd. That being said, there is an interesting point in this thread about the mass usage of the 1-A units(Roaches, Marauders, Collosi). But you can't easily change this without changing the units drastically(or atleast that is what I believe.) MM pushes come before lair tech in sc2, which is why I said that it wouldn't be a viable unit, especially without dark swarm. Tanks outrange and splatter lurks without defiler support. I'm sure we would see more muta useage to abuse the immobility of a lurker. Although, I may have misanalyzed that situation, since hydras did like 5 damage to mutas in BW, and weren't sufficient to guard lurks from getting sniped. But they definately wouldn't change the landscape of ZvT whatsoever. Tank/marine all the way, baby.
MM pushes came before lair in BW as well. However lings did more damage (relatively), and marines had less health and you couldn't stutter step them.
If lurkers were in SC2, you would more likely see people doing 2 hatch fast gas no queen fast lair builds.
In regards to Marine + Tank. You never sat there with lurkers and let them die to tank fire. You would run in with a bunch of lings and lurkers and let the lurkers soak the damage, then you would burrow the lurkers close in and let the splash damage kill everything, and then the lings would catch any units running away.
Lurkers would also do a lot to balance mules in the early game. As terran would always need to save scans before doing a push.
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On March 16 2011 10:36 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Excellent OP.
Imo, the main culprit in the anti-hype is SC2's new pathfinding in combination with splash damage. The splash damage mechanic is mostly unchanged since Brood War. In Brood War, armies were so spread out that we would see waves and waves of units streaming into defensive lines; whereas in Starcraft 2, we usually see huge clumps of armies charging into defensive lines, which leads to a lot more AOE overlap than in Brood War, which means armies in SC2 usually die a lot quicker than they did in Brood War. Brood War battles were very exciting for the spectators because they took up whole screens and you'd still see units coming in to reinforce from off-screen.
Not only that, but in BW we actually could tell what was going on during the battle, whereas in SC2 all we see are shiny explosions and a huge graphic overlapping effects mess.
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EPT
