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would it not be a reasonable micro mechanic to bring back scourge?, they would be able to insta-kill the collosus and the protoss would be seen using their stalkers to target them before they get too many attacks on them
vs terran i don't see a problem since you could make so that thors 1 shot them hence being safe vs terran air, and it would be a reasonable response to banshee harass as long as they don't do too much damage for it to be like 'banshee harass! oh noes scourge gg'
vs zerg it would become a very powerful map control tool since it would prevent the overlords from being everywhere.
this is of course, provided it gets very little health to be easily killed by spore crawlers/thors.
it might not work balance wise though, since after scourge did the damage vs the collo they are even more useless than corruptors
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On March 16 2011 10:41 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:36 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Excellent OP.
Imo, the main culprit in the anti-hype is SC2's new pathfinding in combination with splash damage. The splash damage mechanic is mostly unchanged since Brood War. In Brood War, armies were so spread out that we would see waves and waves of units streaming into defensive lines; whereas in Starcraft 2, we usually see huge clumps of armies charging into defensive lines, which leads to a lot more AOE overlap than in Brood War, which means armies in SC2 usually die a lot quicker than they did in Brood War. Brood War battles were very exciting for the spectators because they took up whole screens and you'd still see units coming in to reinforce from off-screen. Not only that, but in BW we actually could tell what was going on during the battle, whereas in SC2 all we see are shiny explosions and a huge graphic overlapping effects mess.
Weren't units more spread out in Brood War because players had to literally fight the game AI and reign it lest a zealot take a 7 day tour around the edge of a map where as he could have walked a straight line from A to B?
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Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2
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The main problem with the Collosus is basically that it's Batman. They're super-special awesome deathmachines that annihilate everything and know no fear, until someone pulls out a chunk of kryptonite/air units. It just makes for such a bland scissors-paper-rock dynamic where you know exactly how the fight will end as soon as you see the two armies.
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On March 16 2011 13:49 Ezekyle wrote:
The main problem with the Collosus is basically that it's Batman. They're super-special awesome deathmachines that annihilate everything and know no fear, until someone pulls out a chunk of kryptonite/air units. It just makes for such a bland scissors-paper-rock dynamic where you know exactly how the fight will end as soon as you see the two armies.
Batman is cool with kryponite, its superman your thinking of.
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On March 16 2011 12:41 Barca wrote:
Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2
True, difference is that roaches, hydras, and vikings don't melt everything into oblivion. I'm also not fond of the argument that the other units are bland as well. Thats just saturating the issue.
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On March 16 2011 14:24 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 12:41 Barca wrote:
Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2 True, difference is that roaches, hydras, and vikings don't melt everything into oblivion. I'm also not fond of the argument that the other units are bland as well. Thats just saturating the issue.
Zerg as a race is full of "dull" units, but as a whole, the race is exciting because of the way it fights. It wants to produce, engulf and surround enemies, thus making it exciting... Or at least thats what i think the race should be about.
With that in mind, i kind of hate the hydralisk because of how slow, expensive, and costly they are. Doesn't really fit the zerg image.
The reaver is simply the most ingenious unit Blizzard has ever thought of. It could potentially be a ridiculously powerful unit that annihilates things with style, or it can do squat because it's so slow and fragile. The thing is, Blizzard made a lot of "most ingenious" units. Look at the Lurker. Area damage? Cloaked?? Sounds insane right? But in fact, it's only powerful in the right hands.
The poblem with the Colossus is that it's pretty powerful in anyone's hands. That's why its bland.
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On March 16 2011 16:43 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 14:24 R0YAL wrote:On March 16 2011 12:41 Barca wrote:
Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2 True, difference is that roaches, hydras, and vikings don't melt everything into oblivion. I'm also not fond of the argument that the other units are bland as well. Thats just saturating the issue. Zerg as a race is full of "dull" units, but as a whole, the race is exciting because of the way it fights. It wants to produce, engulf and surround enemies, thus making it exciting... Or at least thats what i think the race should be about. With that in mind, i kind of hate the hydralisk because of how slow, expensive, and costly they are. Doesn't really fit the zerg image. The reaver is simply the most ingenious unit Blizzard has ever thought of. It could potentially be a ridiculously powerful unit that annihilates things with style, or it can do squat because it's so slow and fragile. The thing is, Blizzard made a lot of "most ingenious" units. Look at the Lurker. Area damage? Cloaked?? Sounds insane right? But in fact, it's only powerful in the right hands. The poblem with the Colossus is that it's pretty powerful in anyone's hands. That's why its bland.
Yeah I said the exact same thing on page 2.
But i agree with how the Zerg race is awesome conceptually. Its just that the majority of units in sc2 are very one-dimensional. The thing about units that are one-dimensional is that as a spectator you tend to be able to predict the outcome of whats to happen before it happens so its no surprise when it actually does happen, and that to me is the biggest fault with sc2 right now as a spectator sport.
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On March 16 2011 16:43 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 14:24 R0YAL wrote:On March 16 2011 12:41 Barca wrote:
Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2 True, difference is that roaches, hydras, and vikings don't melt everything into oblivion. I'm also not fond of the argument that the other units are bland as well. Thats just saturating the issue. Look at the Lurker. Area damage? Cloaked?? Sounds insane right? But in fact, it's only powerful in the right hands.
Just want to point out that's not true, lurkers are incredible in every hand, at D, lurker literally obliterates every mm force just by borrowing, because micro with 12 unit groups is so incredible hard.
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On March 16 2011 18:24 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:43 TSL-Lore wrote:On March 16 2011 14:24 R0YAL wrote:On March 16 2011 12:41 Barca wrote:
Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2 True, difference is that roaches, hydras, and vikings don't melt everything into oblivion. I'm also not fond of the argument that the other units are bland as well. Thats just saturating the issue. Look at the Lurker. Area damage? Cloaked?? Sounds insane right? But in fact, it's only powerful in the right hands. Just want to point out that's not true, lurkers are incredible in every hand, at D, lurker literally obliterates every mm force just by borrowing, because micro with 12 unit groups is so incredible hard.
Completely disagree, lurkers are retard awful unless you can use them right. Can't spread them out vs Protoss? Stormed. Spread out too much and goons will pwn you if you don't use them right.
Vs terran, sure, you can burrow them beforehand and hold a spot, and anyone can do that. Try to use them in a battle when flanking and it was hard as balls to control them.
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On March 16 2011 18:27 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 18:24 Elefanto wrote:On March 16 2011 16:43 TSL-Lore wrote:On March 16 2011 14:24 R0YAL wrote:On March 16 2011 12:41 Barca wrote:
Well okay, if Collosus are dull, what units aren't?
Roaches and hydras are both pretty dull too. Same with Vikings. If unit control makes a unit not dull then keep in mind this is Starcraft 2 True, difference is that roaches, hydras, and vikings don't melt everything into oblivion. I'm also not fond of the argument that the other units are bland as well. Thats just saturating the issue. Look at the Lurker. Area damage? Cloaked?? Sounds insane right? But in fact, it's only powerful in the right hands. Just want to point out that's not true, lurkers are incredible in every hand, at D, lurker literally obliterates every mm force just by borrowing, because micro with 12 unit groups is so incredible hard. Completely disagree, lurkers are retard awful unless you can use them right. Can't spread them out vs Protoss? Stormed. Spread out too much and goons will pwn you if you don't use them right. Vs terran, sure, you can burrow them beforehand and hold a spot, and anyone can do that. Try to use them in a battle when flanking and it was hard as balls to control them.
Not to mention one irradiate kills them and tanks in pom-pom mode outrange them x.x Ohh the painstakingly wonderful times of bw 
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On March 16 2011 10:53 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:41 fabiano wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Excellent OP.
Imo, the main culprit in the anti-hype is SC2's new pathfinding in combination with splash damage. The splash damage mechanic is mostly unchanged since Brood War. In Brood War, armies were so spread out that we would see waves and waves of units streaming into defensive lines; whereas in Starcraft 2, we usually see huge clumps of armies charging into defensive lines, which leads to a lot more AOE overlap than in Brood War, which means armies in SC2 usually die a lot quicker than they did in Brood War. Brood War battles were very exciting for the spectators because they took up whole screens and you'd still see units coming in to reinforce from off-screen. Not only that, but in BW we actually could tell what was going on during the battle, whereas in SC2 all we see are shiny explosions and a huge graphic overlapping effects mess. Weren't units more spread out in Brood War because players had to literally fight the game AI and reign it lest a zealot take a 7 day tour around the edge of a map where as he could have walked a straight line from A to B?
You make it sound harder than it actually is. I would much rather the BW AI, muta stacking, stronger lings because they can cut through marine lines, etc. The only thing that was annoying was trying to control dragoons/goliaths on destination, but it wasn't THAT bad. Moving units was mostly a piece of cake.
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Having a colossi with double damage and a reduced attack speed is dumb like hell.
What makes the colossi such an aweful unit is the attack range. It's a unit that you can't just kill with ground unit because you first have to kill the entire damn death ball / pass through the Force Field and such.
Having a colossi that deal 30x2 damage is having a colossi that ONE SHOT marine and SCV. How is that balance ?
What you need is a colossi at 6-7 range, remove extended thermal lance, with 30x2 damage and a sucky attack speed, with a big nerf to colossi's HP (reaver was 100/80 no ?), slightly lower cost, and maybe some kind of upgrade that gives him more HP / range when he bury his legs on the ground like a spine crawler.
That would be sick.
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On March 16 2011 19:26 WhiteDog wrote:
Having a colossi with double damage and a reduced attack speed is dumb like hell.
What makes the colossi such an aweful unit is the attack range. It's a unit that you can't just kill with ground unit because you first have to kill the entire damn death ball / pass through the Force Field and such.
Having a colossi that deal 30x2 damage is having a colossi that ONE SHOT marine and SCV. How is that balance ?
What you need is a colossi at 6-7 range, remove extended thermal lance, with 30x2 damage and a sucky attack speed, with a big nerf to colossi's HP (reaver was 100/80 no ?), slightly lower cost, and maybe some kind of upgrade that gives him more HP / range when he bury his legs on the ground like a spine crawler.
That would be sick.
yeah, and then we have a new worthless unit, like the reaper / mothership........
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Units spread out more in BW than in SC2 because the units in BW had a larger collision size, and because the units in BW tried to operate and path individually rather than as a group.
It's actually harder to spread units in SC2 than in BW, which is all the proof you need that the AI/UI is not inherently superior... merely different.
Anyway... Colossi are visually impressive, but rather boring in practice. It's essentially a Shuttle/Reaver combo, adjusted so as not to require or reward tight control. As a consequence, there's no diminishing returns for extra Colossi... so instead of an exciting unit capable of creating tension and comebacks, it's just Stackable Ranged DPS, not unlike the new Hydralisk that's too damn slow to perform any interesting control (beyond burrow ambushes). But at least the hydra can dance on creep >_>
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Please don't make the Colossus Reaver 2.0, this is SC2 not BW. I'm sure another, equally baller unit idea can be thought up.
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spells are rather weak compared to the extra damage this sequel has brought us. we cast them for secondary effects (feedback, fungal - although this might change) rather than damage.
and/or we prefer spells without any damage at all (force fields).
it's been a while since i've witnessed a yamato being flung around. i've only seen gretorp (iirc) use the thor's barrage thingy against immortals in a very specific build [does it still result in practically the same dps as if the thor attacked conventionally (and only if the entire spell can be cast)?]
the dps increase led directly to "MOAR UNITS!" being superior. critical mass is achieved much sooner. be that the bioball that can squeeze more power into a square inch now that medics no longer consume space on the ground (sc1 worked similarly prior to bw), new units that got blessed with a few extras on top of their impressive damage (marauders, roaches, immortals, colossi and allow me to throw in the planetary fortress) or a simple power-up (although only hydras come to mind immediately and possibly interceptors and archons ...unless you consider the wraith having been split into banshee+viking and the thor being the successor to the goliath).
anyways, the very nature of critical mass is that it can only be 'countered' properly by a larger critical mass.
to achieve it, you're forced to macro and with everything dieing this quickly and demanding a replacement, the 'bordeom' is squared.
alas, even if they reduced all attack rates, some issues remain; aforementioned squeezed bioball and the units equipped with high-volley-damage will still slap large chunks of an opponent's army around.
so i don't have a one-size-fits-all solution either... i guess i, too, am inclined to wish bw 'back': with medics technically sabotaging their own army, splash damage being limited to archons (short range) and reavers (somewhat unpredictable) so that psi storm 'had to' be strong to close the gap (deliberately leaving corsairs out of this -.-)
the only thing i can come up with to ease the situation is a scarcer distribution of attributes (or bonus damages, but preferably the former); e.g. with everyone and his dog dealing extra damage against armored units, it is no surprise infestors practically die in a fire everytime their simple move command gets them shoved right in front of the enemys' nozzles by a-moving comrades. an HP buff as was done to buildings for this very same reason cannot be done to units. imagine the ultralisk not being armored; suddenly stimmed marauders wouldn't be all that scary anymore. skirmishes between ultras and immortals could go on for a while.
we could do similar to thors. and if we still want a harder counter to both of those, we can always give '+1 vs massive' to zerglings/marines/zealots.
(on the other hand... could archons plz get their massive attributes so marauders won't slow them... pwetty pweeze...?)
ahwell... just a brainfart ^^
vOv
---
Oh no no no I’m a bracket man
Bracket man... burning out his fuse up here alone
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On March 16 2011 10:53 kunstderfugue wrote:
would it not be a reasonable micro mechanic to bring back scourge?, they would be able to insta-kill the collosus and the protoss would be seen using their stalkers to target them before they get too many attacks on them
vs terran i don't see a problem since you could make so that thors 1 shot them hence being safe vs terran air, and it would be a reasonable response to banshee harass as long as they don't do too much damage for it to be like 'banshee harass! oh noes scourge gg'
vs zerg it would become a very powerful map control tool since it would prevent the overlords from being everywhere.
this is of course, provided it gets very little health to be easily killed by spore crawlers/thors.
it might not work balance wise though, since after scourge did the damage vs the collo they are even more useless than corruptors
Yeah that makes sense you'd have to fiddle around with it but it makes sense however the corrupter would be a void unit except as a step towards broodlords, and this is SC2 they already made brood war, maybe they could add something in the expansion I think corrupter range needs to be increased.
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Post this on Blizzard forums because i would love it personally if colossi would be removed.
1. So many people complain (not saying i agree at all)
2. Reavers were so much fun. No lie they took some skill to use and micro properly and made for some great games
3. Colossi are ZzzZzzzZzzzZ
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we had the reaver... that was unique and coherent to the starcraft universe... because protoss were pacific people and readapted a civil technology to war.
Now we have colossi, that are from another universe and another science fiction novel... war of the worlds... and is a boring unit to use and to see... blizzard has become the shadow of itself in last year.
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EPT
