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On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple.
If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases.
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On March 11 2011 12:37 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 11:53 usethis2 wrote:
In the meantime he gets even more bases and buy time for upgrades, as well as lay foundation for tech switches. Tech switches? Really? + Show Spoiler +In the match against SCfou yesterday, he teched straight for templar and never built anything else all 4 games, even though each game lasted 30-60 minutes. In the 4th game, he did this even though SCfou spent the whole game building nothing but marauders, despite already having a stargate up (he built 1 early voidray then never used it again).
In Game 1 on Metalopolis, San was preparing for a tech switch to Colossi by building double Robos at his second base and building a Robo Support Bay at his main.
Unfortunately, sC pushed into San's main and killed off every building there, including the Support Bay, before he could pump out any Colossi or utilize his double Robos in any way.
The rest of the game involved sC applying almost constant MMM pressure against San as he frantically tried to defend his expansions against the constant stream of Terran units. San was pumping all his gas into Templar to abuse Amulet to defend his expansions, and this was evident in the fact that his minerals usually spiked up over 1k while his gas was extremely low. Therefore, he simply couldn't tech switch without dying.
I think San was in a similar situation during the other games. His style was to first tech to Templar, and then tech to Colossi later once the pressure backs off for a bit. Unfortunately, sC almost never backed up his pressure, so San couldn't tech switch to anything else without spending his gas on the new tech, temporarily stop Templar production, and get rolled over by sC's superior MMM ball during the timing window when San tech switches.
Likewise, sC couldn't really switch into any other unit composition with San's Templar pressure absolutely wrecking his bases whenever he moved his attention elsewhere. Pure mech would die to storms due to its immobility and weakness against zealots, although sC could've really benefited from some blue flame Hellions in his MMM mix. Banshees would've been sniped by Feedbacks, and BCs would also be wrecked by storms and feedback.
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On March 11 2011 18:38 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple. If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases.
3-4 cannon is enough to destroy a marauder drop, Colossi are pretty mobile if you compare them to tanks and you can warp in 5 zealot and they will deal with any kind of drop harassment from the terran. You just have to have some kind of map awareness to warp in before the drop.
Protosses have a lot of defenses against harassment, way more than zerg without muta or terran without PF.
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maps are way too big
why doesn'T anyone listen to actionjesus
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On March 11 2011 19:42 robih wrote:
maps are way too big
why doesn'T anyone listen to actionjesus
or bitbybit.prime
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MC never did this style of play, MC did at best 2 base timing attacks that either killed or crippled his opponent. Actually I have never MC win when the game goes above 2 bases(vs Jinro oGsTop). Just imho.
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It was really fun to watch, but the whole time i was just thinking about how his style won't be possible after amulet is taken out. Kinda puts shadow over the games.
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On March 11 2011 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:38 Logros wrote:On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple. If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases. 3-4 cannon is enough to destroy a marauder drop, Colossi are pretty mobile if you compare them to tanks and you can warp in 5 zealot and they will deal with any kind of drop harassment from the terran. You just have to have some kind of map awareness to warp in before the drop. Protosses have a lot of defenses against harassment, way more than zerg without muta or terran without PF.
wow, comparing 3-4 canons destroying one drop to a repairable planetary fortress destroying a whole army is well, kinda funny. with sensor towers you see a drop coming miles ahead, take the prism out with 1-2 vikings BEFORE anything happens or simply move some rauders to the expo, you dont even need planetary, if you have free maphack -.-
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I just wish Protoss had a decent mirror now as the other match-ups are really starting to take shape.
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On March 11 2011 20:18 Zystra wrote:
I just wish Protoss had a decent mirror now as the other match-ups are really starting to take shape.
true that, well i seems to get better with all those anti 4gate builds around, though i hope incontrol wont prove right and this will all turn out to be a phoenix battle, which i srsly cant imagine to happen though.
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I think we're just seeing the logical conclusion of protoss dedicating themselves to the twilight tech tree. Proxy Pylons everywhere and easily reinforceable army. My problem with SAN is that if your going to stay gateway-centric than you need to go balls to the wall in chrono boosting your double forge. He seemed very lazy about upgrading.
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I just wonder how far he can get when you can't suddenly warp-in psy-storms all the time....
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Sanzenith is playing the game the way it is ment to, nonstop action/conflict with drops and harass.
I loved his games, was really sceptical of him at first but seriously the last matches he played is by my account the most fun and epic pvt in starcraft 2 history and Ive watched 100% dailys, shitloads of husky/hd and all gsl aswell as shitloads of streams.
Yes there was a great PvT in GSTL but it was still plagued by a protoss deathball alot of the time with much less harassment.
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On March 11 2011 19:42 robih wrote:
maps are way too big
why doesn'T anyone listen to actionjesus
they have not seen the light yet
someday
someday
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I have to agree with a lot of the other posters. He actually does greatly depend on amulet warp ins. with both harass and preventing incoming aggression. One of the reasons he is able to expand so much is because he reacts as fast as a zerg would by pumping out insta-storms. This strategy can still be used i would think, after the patch, but it will be less powerful and toss will have to put more thought into expanding when it's safe.
I think the major change in his play that would have even helped him in this gsl, is that he won't depend completely on hts all game. Great unit, but like any race, when ur on 4 bases, you should have atleast two powerful tech paths. HT+Collosi are pretty deadly, and even hts and voidrays are pretty awesome against terran especially.
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Look for Deth and change to Death.
Turtling by nature cannot be Brute Force and vice versa is not possible as well.
Solid post though I agree with the style, but I really think protoss will benefit from making sure they have a beat mixture that is used properly.
Zealots taking the hits.
Stalkers AA
Sentry GS + FF
3-4 Colossi
Target Firing with 1-2 immortals on high value targets.
HT storms in the proper placed inbetween zealot line and FF
This is all a lot of $, but I don't see how having a million colossi is helpful in a battle. When they go down they're so much supply removed from the battlefield and gateway units are not great, so you're left with a losing hand trying to get back in the game with a bluff.
Also I do understand that that would actually be incredibly sick APM, but getting the majority of that right and having a build that works well in you getting a good SOLID base of units protoss will be tearing it up.
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The only complaint I have with his is his is that he tends to build extra robos and never uses them. You see his resource count while hes playing this mass base style but doesn't throw down extra tech routes. In most of the games he couldn't of easily punished the MM with Voidrays or colo, he had enough money.
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I am surprised that people think San is this amazing player. It seems obvious from watching his games that he worked on a couple key areas of his play (namely early game mechanics and HT control/harass) but overall he seems really weak. In yesterdays set he pylon blocked an expo (again), Tastosis mentioned multiple times when his minerals and gas were really really high, and he didn’t demonstrate any sense that he knew what was going on in the game. He would just do shit, sometimes it would work and other times it would blow up in his face. I think someone has given him a couple simple rules and builds to follow and San just follows them without understanding why he needs to follow them. If X happens, expand (I am guessing the trigger has something to do with his money getting high). Use warp prisms to harass the mineral line. Practice HT control. The shit Day9 talks about every fucking day of the week.
San got out of the group stage because everyone wrote him off as a joke and he came out with some fairly clean timings no one was ready for. Then he played TheWind whose mechanics are obviously a bit rusty, and finally against SC who had no business being in the round of 8. SC didn’t know how to deal with the constant (and predictable) HT harass from San and had, what I would consider, weak control of his MMM army for a Code S player. While the set itself was entertaining to watch after it was over I felt like San wasn't playing to win but playing not to lose and that left me feeling really frustrated.
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I've been saying this to all the protoss that act they won't miss amulet so much because their play wasn't templar focused, but the amulet impact is going to astronomical for PvT. For one, this style is going to become completely dead. Second, protoss will become predictable and more pigeonholed into robo to compete with mass marine. You are going to be blind countered on the ladder.
The san vs. SC series was evidence IMO. San outplayed SC pretty severely macro-wise and decision-wise and was still put in positions where he could have lost those games. SC's marauder micro was really good, but without amulet SC wins that series in a one sided way... no question about it. Those games were too close for one player to get completely outplayed and hang in there with tier 1 units and the odd ghost.
I've been playing ladder and customs since the patch notes were announced without getting amulet and trying to go for storm. It's actually a terrible and non-viable way to play the matchup without amulet because the terrans I play are actually good and know when to move and when to tank the damage on their marauders. They also know how to spread their units really nicely so it comes down to unit efficiency.
I'm of the school of thought that felt amulet was too powerful, but that modifying it would be appropriate or just making all casters start at 63 energy. Being able to pay 50/150 for an instant storm anywhere you have a pylon is a bit ridiculous, but honestly if you are accustomed to the HT-oriented style in the matchup and haven't tried playing without amulet try it out and see how utterly impossible it is to beat a good terran player.
Even if you don't use this playstyle I guarantee you are going to feel the effects of this change. Guaranteed. Even if you never built a single templar in PvT, you will feel the impact.
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3 Protoss in the top 4. Protoss fightinggggg <3
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EPT
