|
This season's GSL has been literally an upset-fest, and at its spotlight is the SadSanManZenith and his incredible performance throughout the season. I won't list all the great players he knocked out on his way, but I noticed something interesting in SanZenith's play style: His Protoss is kind of like Zerg.
Prior to this season, and even in this season, most Protoss strats have revolved around 1) 4-gate and 2) Colossus Dethball. One is an agreesive allin-ish tactic while the other one is more turtle-ish brute force tactic. Both strats have proven to be largely successful but at the same time other races have learned to deal with it to at least be on even footing. (Though Zerg still seem to struggle, due in part to the Stargate play)
What we witnessed in the past was large balls of MM/Viking, Roach/Hydra/Corruptor, and the deathball moving around the center area looking for a chance to catch the opponent out of position. One large battle would decide the game, and while it can be suspenseful during the time the balls are dancing around it gets quite repetitive for the spectators.
SanZenith's strategies are quite different from this scenario in so many ways, and I wonder whether if this can be an alternative of the 'traditional' dethball strategy we toss players love/hate so much. I for one am very inspired by the way he plays out his opponents. I would also like to note how I liked SanZenith has not attempted to cheese his opponents. ManZenith, for real. (No cannons, hidden gateways, or even 4-gates)
Without further ado, here are what I witnessed:
1) Heavy emphasis on economy, from the beginning of the game and throughout - He usually opens with barely sufficient units to hold off early aggression. It can be risky for sure, but combined with well-timed scouting and excellent game sense he has had no problem repelling early aggression while establishing quick natural.
2) Scouting, scouting, and more scouting - SanZenith doesn't seem to stop scouting at any moment in the game. He will send out multiple probes to different directions, and often gets the Robotics Facility only for observers, where he produces multiple observers that cover key areas. Proactive pylon placements also give excellent map awareness. It's almost like Zerg player placing lings and overlords around the map.
3) Tech up to templars while building just the right amount of gateway units. We know it takes long and a lot of money to get templar techs, and many often fall to timing attacks while trying to get there. SanZenith seem to know how many gateway units he needs to produce to dispell these timing attacks, and he often takes the battle to the middle and/or near opponents' bases before the opponents get to his base (which is quite common occurence to a turtling P), trying to cut reinforcement and put pressure on his opponents. (Reminiscent of Fruitdealer in GSL 1)
4) Once he gets Templar techs, he goes on to mass expand, instead of fighting opponents head-on. The key here is harrasment, either using proxy pylons or warp prisms. Keep opponent busy while taking over the map - I thought that's what Zerg is supposed to do mid-game.
5) Even after establishing huge advantage he doesn't go for the kill move prematurely, but rather whittle down the opponents or try to contain them. He shows his high-tech units to scare off his opponents to come out of their bases, and keep the harrasment going. In the meantime he gets even more bases and buy time for upgrades, as well as lay foundation for tech switches. (another trait of typical Zerg play) His upgrades have been always a step or two above that of his opponents afaik.
6) Once the opponents dry out or become desparate they will move out only to meet much superior army. SanZenith, patient, waits for it then crushes them and march into the opponents base for the finale.
I haven't seen other protoss playing just like this yet. This is very different from what we usually see from 'traditional' P strat - turtle, build towards the deathball, and move out to win. Now, the traditional deathball strategy is still quite powerful (especially v. Zerg) but it is refreshing to see this not-so-subtley different playstyle from a P to a great success. Really, I felt like SanZenith is playing P as if it's Z.
I think this style can and will work even after the HT nerf, because this strat is backed up by huge economy and is relying on being prepared for the opponent's attack. Harrassment may get a little weaker but on these large GSL maps there are plenty of things to do while HTs accumulate energy to strom mineral lines and what not. SanZenith also mixes in Stalkers not to mention DTs for the harrasment, so it is in no way prohibitive, IMO.
Of course all these require a lot of multitasking and map awareness. (GSL maps are huge) It also requires a good micro to expell opponents aggression while teching, and we saw SanZenith was no slouch in that department as well.
Thoughts?
|
He is most like a Zerg in that he takes expos sooner and more often than most other protoss.
This is entirely to do with the new GIGANTIC maps.
|
i think this is what all races should do on the new gsl maps...
|
One of the biggest thing's San's tactics revolve around right now is the fact that with Amulet, Templar can warp in and storm. As you said, he almost always engages the enemy closer to their own base than his own, and slowly falls back, warping in more units as he goes with the aim of dealing more damaged over time than his opponent can overcome by resupplying. I think this kind of strategy, at least in the current form he's been using in this GSL will be nullified with the proposed changes in patch 1.3 (currently on the PTR) which would take Amulet out of the game.
That being said, I do find this as a refreshing alternative to PvX deathball and 4gate. It's nice to see a change in strategy from the audience perspective.
|
One thing I'm not a huge fan of is how he doesn't seem to utilize immortal/colossi once opponents add ghosts. He also needlessly donates alot of zealots. Hes no MC, but I'm still fairly impressed.
|
On March 11 2011 11:53 usethis2 wrote:
Thoughts?
It was a really exciting and enjoyable style to watch, and encouraged a high level of micro from both sides as well as fighting all over the map. It's a damn shame that Blizzard are planning to kill off this style of play with the next patch.
Edit: I would also love to see how this style could evolve in the future, particularly with the introduction of other units such as hellions.
|
watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either
|
I'm absolutely in love with Sans play this season. And you're right, the style of expanding and harassing is quite zergesque. Who knows, maybe that is the way of the future.
|
I actually think this style is fairly standard. SanZenith has had excellent unit control and macro, though, so he really has pulled it off.
|
San - SC was the most boring best of five series I've seen on gsl. 3 hours of Zealots+Storm Vs Marauders.
|
Did no one watch season 3? MC did all of this and more, SanZenith is not an innovator. Suiciding HT's into terran base to feedback a ghost is not micro....
|
Out of all the styles in this game, his style is the most macro oriented and most entertaining. It puts emphasis on RTS fundamentals like map control, where the other builds can somewhat pseudo-ignore.
Luckily, they are taking it out and making sure every Protoss build involves a Colossus ball. I wish they would just nerf Colossus instead. In fact, just remove them and put nothing back  The game would be better off
|
On March 11 2011 12:14 Baffels wrote:
Did no one watch season 3? MC did all of this and more, SanZenith is not an innovator. Suiciding HT's into terran base to feedback a ghost is not micro....
Really MC did this style because all I remember is 1 to 2 base play most of the time.
|
SanZenith plays SC2 as though it was BW. I doubt he knows what the Protoss deathball is, and that's a good thing. His style leads to close, entertaining games that are awesome despite mistakes from both players.
|
Don't socke and whitera play a lot of HTs usually? I don't think it's something that new, maybe skipping intermediate robo units is.
I'm sure HTs will remain viable. Right now, a lot of players use the very careless and spam storms on few units or warp them right in range of units etc. They will remain strong but will require a more deliberate usage.
|
On March 11 2011 11:53 usethis2 wrote:
In the meantime he gets even more bases and buy time for upgrades, as well as lay foundation for tech switches.
Tech switches? Really?
+ Show Spoiler +In the match against SCfou yesterday, he teched straight for templar and never built anything else all 4 games, even though each game lasted 30-60 minutes. In the 4th game, he did this even though SCfou spent the whole game building nothing but marauders, despite already having a stargate up (he built 1 early voidray then never used it again).
|
It's not a style specific to zerg, templar tech because of the upgrades allows your gateway units to be effective in smaller numbers letting you spread out, harass and expand much further than robo which constantly need support or they get picked off, but together are much stronger.
Certainly protoss haven't been using it enough, but he's just playing the tree the way it needs to be played, a lot like bio vs mech for terran.
|
On March 11 2011 12:37 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 11:53 usethis2 wrote:
In the meantime he gets even more bases and buy time for upgrades, as well as lay foundation for tech switches. Tech switches? Really? + Show Spoiler +In the match against SCfou yesterday, he teched straight for templar and never built anything else all 4 games, even though each game lasted 30-60 minutes. In the 4th game, he did this even though SCfou spent the whole game building nothing but marauders, despite already having a stargate up (he built 1 early voidray then never used it again).
He was going to switch to Colossus but his main got destroyed, I think? And also in group-stage he successfully switched to Colossus (Hallucinated Colossus as well!) from HT against oGsEnsnare.
|
On March 11 2011 12:19 HeroHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 12:14 Baffels wrote:
Did no one watch season 3? MC did all of this and more, SanZenith is not an innovator. Suiciding HT's into terran base to feedback a ghost is not micro.... Really MC did this style because all I remember is 1 to 2 base play most of the time.
Yep. MC's style, while I wouldn't call cheesey, but somewhat exploitive. He is very good at that no doubt, but it's definitely different from San's style.
|
On March 11 2011 12:37 pirsq wrote:Tech switches? Really? + Show Spoiler +In the match against SCfou yesterday, he teched straight for templar and never built anything else all 4 games, even though each game lasted 30-60 minutes. In the 4th game, he did this even though SCfou spent the whole game building nothing but marauders, despite already having a stargate up (he built 1 early voidray then never used it again).
+ Show Spoiler +SC usually had at least a few marines mixed into his marauderball. That was the problem with an air switch for San.
|
On March 11 2011 12:13 StarscreamG1 wrote:
San - SC was the most boring best of five series I've seen on gsl. 3 hours of Zealots+Storm Vs Marauders.
LOL
wtf
|
I would also like to note how I liked SanZenith has not attempted to cheese his opponents. ManZenith, for real. (No cannons, hidden gateways, or even 4-gates)
That's not why he's manZenith, the original Mantoss cheesed all the time.
|
San, is good. Though he showed stubbornness in todays matches to adapt. I like going for a mostly warpgate army, coupled with Templar early.
However i feel it would have benefited him more, in the late game to try and get up just 2 or 3 Colossi. Those games wouldn't have been nearly as competitive had he found an appropriate time to do so.
While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions.
|
On March 11 2011 12:13 StarscreamG1 wrote:
San - SC was the most boring best of five series I've seen on gsl. 3 hours of Zealots+Storm Vs Marauders.
I'll admit both players stubbornness to adapt was annoying. While it wasn't the best play, that was one of the most entertaining series to watch.
|
On March 11 2011 13:07 Cyanocyst wrote:
While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions.
This just isn't true, as was seen in the match where San ran out of gas. The terran army was far more cost-efficient throughout most of this series.
|
Honestly out of the 2 protoss that played yesterday both of them would have lost completly or lost earlier at least without kaydarian amulet , so many times all the HT's the protoss had got empd and he would have to rely on warping in more too get off storms, so with kaydarian amulet it may seem a bit overpowered but without it protoss would defenetly seem underpowered should they chose high templar tech, its a conundrum.
|
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars.
|
I like it, it's a nice variation, but I think SanZenith would crumple to a more aggressive Terran player, like MarineKing or MVP. So many times in his match with SCfOu I think he could have been finished off by a final push that never came. I really disliked those matches - they were "epic," sure, but full of mistakes and very frustrating to watch, I'm afraid. SanZenith needed to take so many bases because his strat was just so ridiculously gas heavy. I wish he had thrown some immortals into his composition, considering he was facing pure mass marauder.
|
On March 11 2011 13:11 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:07 Cyanocyst wrote:
While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions. This just isn't true, as was seen in the match where San ran out of gas. The terran army was far more cost-efficient throughout most of this series.
lol, yeah sure when your trying to beat mass marauder with Ht, Zealot. Then the Terran army is much more cost efficient.
Marauders can actually kite charged Zealots when stimmed, and weather storms well. Combine that with the fact that medivcas are healing. San simply didn't have an optimal unit composition.
You shouldn't base your whole opinion of racial characteristic on one game.
|
On March 11 2011 12:09 Wr3k wrote:
One thing I'm not a huge fan of is how he doesn't seem to utilize immortal/colossi once opponents add ghosts. He also needlessly donates alot of zealots. Hes no MC, but I'm still fairly impressed.
awww wrek you switched to toss?
miss watching your streams
|
On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote:
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars.
lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time.
Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base.
|
His style revolves around 2 key points IMO. First and foremost, his style foccuses on improving the units that you can get quickly and replenish, which are the gateway units. How do you do this? Get the twilight council early! Its a cheap tech improvement that boost your army highly. Zealots inflict more damage and blink improves maneauverability. This not only bolsters your already existing gateway units, you also open up the tech path to templars. This means there is an easy transition to a higher tech while you also boost your existing army of gateway units. Another point is its similarity to the zerg style. What makes this "zerg like" is the ease of replenishing your units quickly in case of emergency. Has anyone here ever considered planting 20 gateways rather than going colo? The big disadvantage of going colo is that when you mess up your colo and they get killed, say you messed up, you cannot replenish them quickly. They are also very resource heavy and immobile. Comparing this to San's style, you can pump out zealots and stalkers like theres no tomorrow but still have enough gas to pump out spellcasters (sentry early game and templar late game). core units like zealots and stalkers arent that gas heavy. that means you have leeway to pump out more spell casters if you need them ASAP to locations where the action is taking. Compare this to colo who has to expose himself and tread all the way from the robo bay to your army group.
|
His real name is Cho-Won Kang. I call him Chobbie Won Kenobi! I love his off beat style. Like George Forman you can hit him and hit him, but he won't back up or go down. You just wear yourself out pounding on him.
|
The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it.
On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote:
watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either
On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote:
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base.
In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play.
As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in.
It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle.
And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it.
But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend.
So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways.
Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now...
Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
|
If Blizzard does take out the Amulet, this playstyle would die off. San almost lost vs pure marauder, so he would have to go Colossi just to counter terran T1
|
san's play is definitely more solid but you have to remember he did 6 gate nestea off of 2 bases which is somewhat all in and he did it again to another zerg i cant remember. He definitely tries to play a macro oriented style but not always...
|
I wonder how well san will be able to cope if ever the amulet does get taken out. It would affect his play more than the other protosses since he's so reliant in mid to late Psi Storms.
|
I think you are over estimating his early game. He opens DTs because any pressure that terran does early will not have a raven and they are good for map control all game long. Then he relies on HTs to survive and eventually wins. It would be more interesting to see a better tech switch from him after he's on 4+ base i.e. 4 robo or 3 stargate carriers. I think Tyler from his showmatch against Jinro and ladder play is demonstrating a much more solid form of toss play, not relying on trying to abuse High temps and sort of crossing your fingers that they are OP enough.
|
United States15275 Posts
On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote:
watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote:
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base. In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play. As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in. It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle. And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it. But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend. So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways. Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now... Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
Putting cannons at your expansions isn't "turtling". It's common sense.
|
Canada13389 Posts
On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote:
watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote:
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base. In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play. As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in. It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle. And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it. But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend. So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways. Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now... Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
What you fail to take into account when considering the PvT in SC2 in comparison to PvZ in BW is that in BW you could collect more energy and use storm earlier by getting an energy upgrade. Do i agree insta storms are bad? Yes. Should High Templar start with 50 energy and get no option for +max energy or + x% energy? No I don't think so.
My reason being that when on the back foot, High Templar become completely useless for the protoss with only 50 starting energy. I dont feel that instant storms is legitimate for a number of reasons. First being that it is too easy to defend, second and more importantly is you can warp in 5 seconds a way to destroy an entire mineral line.
45 seconds to build enough energy for one storm should an engagement fall poorly and terran counter is imo limiting gameplay and limiting the options for HT tech. I feel that instead of removing upgrades they should be changed
Further, while you try to explain your position you seem to only look at it from the perpsective of a Terran player. San did turtle but I dont feel that he turtled behind mass cannon. At his most forward base he did cannon up but he also focused on harass. San was also trying to take ground prior to expanding and placing cannons.
Its basically (IMO) a Protoss version of a slow push using storms to zone and create an apprehensiveness in the Terran providing time to allow expos to go up and cannons to complete to help defend.
Without amulet we won't see anything quite like san's play earlier and I am ok with that but I do want to see templar tech played with more and to remove the energy completely devotes them to being a secondary high tech unit as opposed a primary high tech unit. What we may see is more collossus into some templar. However, the fragility of the templar and the long wait time for a storm may make some people pause and think that another collossus or 3 more stalkers is more worth it (gas wise).
|
It;s gonna be hard for san to get to and win final. If he does that would be cool considering he's going to military and won't have a chance to win for awhile or maybe never if he decides to not return to star2.
|
On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept.
|
I have been thinking this for awhile actually, how much in the ZvP match especially, the roles have been switched.
A macro'd up Protoss deathball is nearly unbeatable for the Zerg, so the Protoss plays a very safe, very reactive heavy-macro style, while the Zerg is forced to try and pressure the Protoss to stop him from macro'ing up the unstoppable 200/200 Collossus death-ball.
|
IMO lategame cannons ALONG with the amulet upgrade is what makes protoss so strong. Of course in the recent GSL games San was very low economy and couldn't do the mass cannon @ ever expo sort of thing in order to drain down Terrans supply, but it is somewhat ridiculous. Cannons are not only alot better than they were in BW, they are also easy to mass build due to the queue-up mechanics. In BW it would actually take forever to cannon up a base, whereas in SC2 you can do it in less than 3 seconds.
|
Well, I hope this thread doesn't go down too much to amulet debate. In San v SC series there were some insta warp-in storms, but in previous series San usually had templars warped in ahead and carried them with his army, except when storming mineral lines. I do not think this play style is that much dependent on amulet alone. (I could be wrong, but San won many of his previous matches using similar styles without insta storms) And San certainly knows how to switch techs from what I've seen. (San v Nestea, San v Ensnare, for example) Often times it wasn't necessary, though.
|
You know, I just watched today's games. Although san vs. sc was entertaining, I think that both players didn't perform very well. Tbh I saw nothing extraordinary nor impressive.
Sc going MMM in all 4 games, despite losing the first 2 and unconvincingly winning game3 and seemed unable to put pressure on the opponent while defending his base.
While San going gateway units + templar tech, and showing a very one dimensional playstyle (abusing the overpowered kaydarin amulet).
It was very clear that both players aren't really familiar with late-game on big maps, their decision making was shaky, to say the least, especially on Terminus RE.
In my opinion San will not win this GSL.
|
Oh and what I mean 'traditional' deathball strat in my OP -> Check out Lyn v Anypro game No. 4. Anypro also failed his templar strat in game 2. It looks to me the colossus deathball is definitely easier to execute, albeit more fragile if hard countered.
|
United States187 Posts
His style definitely adds to more exciting games
|
i dont know if u can call this new t.t artosis has been pushing this style forever and he would have gone colossus but in everygame where he had the chance he was too busy catching up to sc to really make the gas needed for colossus worthwhile.
I think its also worth mentioning that sc would have easily won this series if played the same on the next patch. Without warpin storms sc would have rolled him over with bio balls
|
I think scfou would've took all the games easily if he bothered to expand more. Most of the games, san had twice as many bases as sc, yet the games were relatively equal. If sc had more bases, he definitely would've taken the games.
|
On March 11 2011 14:35 K3Nyy wrote:
I think scfou would've took all the games easily if he bothered to expand more. Most of the games, san had twice as many bases as sc, yet the games were relatively equal. If sc had more bases, he definitely would've taken the games.
i dunno if u know this or not, but its quite hard to mass expand as terran when the protoss has dt tech and warp prisms.
|
On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote:
watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote:
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base. In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play. As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in. It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle. And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it. But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend. So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways. Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now... Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
EZ Button storms? Rofl you are such a troll. Haven't you watched the games the OP talked about? You fool yourself if you have watched the SanZenith games and then honestly think that his style will be "100% possible next patch". He would have gotten absolutely raped in the face by the black libido that is a marauder's powerful, explosive cannon. Marauder medivac was actually more cost effective than zealot HT. SanZenith was barely able to stay alive against the constant aggression against the ridiculously cost efficient combo that is marauders and medivacs, even with OP amulet fueled storms.
"What you stormed me? I'll just move out the storm and lol. What 3 more storms? That's K my marauders can take it. What you have chargelots? Better quickly spam click behind my army and hit S, H or amove every .5 seconds. Wow Terran micro is so hard I should make QQ posts on a forum about how OP stim amulet is. Oh cool since my race isn't Protoss Blizz is listening to me and nerfing what I ask for!"
Not that you would realize any of this, considering Terrans get stim an eternity before Toss can possibly get storm, so you probably aren't capable of imagining your marauders without stim. The ironic thing is that both of the race's "EZ Buttonz" are hotkeyed to T.
P.S. How the hell is constant warp prism and DT harassment, staying in the middle of the map, mass expanding, putting pressure on your opponent while continually slugging your main army against his considered turtling? I think you are confusing your poor brain with the PREVIOUS common-since-the-beta "pray for good forcefields into mass collosus into a-move" strategy.
|
Protoss with amulet in its current form is too strong. When you get psi storm, at least.
However, Protoss without amulet at all is too weak. Simple solution will just to not go templar vs Terran. You're forgetting that Terran had nothing like Marauder bio in BW (ultra mobile and ultra hard to kill), and so psi storm was much more devastating against the units that it did well against.
So insta-storm warpin in its current form needs to be changed, but removal entirely is silly.
InControl had a great idea, simply giving Psi Storm a cooldown when the unit is first warped in of 10 seconds or so.
|
On March 11 2011 14:45 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it. On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote:
watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote:
IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base. In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play. As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in. It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle. And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it. But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend. So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways. Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now... Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games. EZ Button storms? Rofl you are such a troll. Haven't you watched the games the OP talked about? You fool yourself if you have watched the SanZenith games and then honestly think that his style will be "100% possible next patch". He would have gotten absolutely raped in the face by the black libido that is a marauder's powerful, explosive cannon. Marauder medivac was actually more cost effective than zealot HT. SanZenith was barely able to stay alive against the constant aggression against the ridiculously cost efficient combo that is marauders and medivacs, even with OP amulet fueled storms. "What you stormed me? I'll just move out the storm and lol. What 3 more storms? That's K my marauders can take it. What you have chargelots? Better quickly spam click behind my army and hit S, H or amove every .5 seconds. Wow Terran micro is so hard I should make QQ posts on a forum about how OP stim amulet is. Oh cool since my race isn't Protoss Blizz is listening to me and nerfing what I ask for!" Not that you would realize any of this, considering Terrans get stim an eternity before Toss can possibly get storm, so you probably aren't capable of imagining your marauders without stim. The ironic thing is that both of the race's "EZ Buttonz" are hotkeyed to T. P.S. How the hell is constant warp prism and DT harassment, staying in the middle of the map, mass expanding, putting pressure on your opponent while continually slugging your main army against his considered turtling? I think you are confusing your poor brain with the PREVIOUS common-since-the-beta "pray for good forcefields into mass collosus into a-move" strategy.
Unlike your post, I wasn't balance whining. I was analyzing what happened in the games, and commenting on it, and inferring that the play style will still be possible with amulet removed because the exact same defensive play style was possible in brood war with templars.
As for the marauders/medivacs/marines, if you read, I also mentioned that lots of protoss use a lot more sentries/immortals/collosus than sanszenith style in these games used, and those counter marauders perfectly fine in the current patch. It's an awesome style to use, the turtle protoss templar style, but next patch P will have to do it a bit more pre-emptively at their expos...ala SC1.
|
I just finished watching all san match vs Sc.
The matches were long but I didn't find it very good to watch,
both player made a lot of mistakes and always had the same unit composition, mass mauraders vs zealot ht's. I don't like this passive style of playing protoss and it will probably go away with amulet removal. MC will own him ! go mc !
|
On March 11 2011 13:26 Cyanocyst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:11 Jumbled wrote:On March 11 2011 13:07 Cyanocyst wrote:
While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions. This just isn't true, as was seen in the match where San ran out of gas. The terran army was far more cost-efficient throughout most of this series. lol, yeah sure when your trying to beat mass marauder with Ht, Zealot. Then the Terran army is much more cost efficient. Marauders can actually kite charged Zealots when stimmed, and weather storms well. Combine that with the fact that medivcas are healing. San simply didn't have an optimal unit composition. You shouldn't base your whole opinion of racial characteristic on one game.
A much better idea would be to not over-generalise when discussing racial strengths and weaknesses. I restricted my comment to one particular series precisely because it's foolish to describe one race as always more cost-efficient than the others. Protoss units are durable, but very costly, and they lack the healing/repairing abilities that make terran units last so much longer in combat.
No matter the match-up, cost-efficiency usually comes down to the chosen composition and tactics of each player, and any of the three races can win the efficiency war and outlast their opponent under the right circumstances.
|
On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept.
lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O
like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets.
Simple.
|
On March 11 2011 14:38 sLiMpoweR wrote:
i dunno if u know this or not, but its quite hard to mass expand as terran when the protoss has dt tech and warp prisms.
Planetary fortress + missile turrets negate DTs completely.
Also sensor towers negate warp-prism and HT mineral line harassment if the terran is paying any attention at all. But terrans kind of forget that sensor towers are incredible and all that.
|
Also, expanding in a far away place is something he likes to do; another main, for example, where he can just FF the ramp to be safe (San vs sCfOu Game 1 Ro8).
I think its also worth mentioning that sc would have easily won this series if played the same on the next patch. Without warpin storms sc would have rolled him over with bio balls
That is, assuming they'd play the same... which they wouldn't because they would adapt to the changes.
|
yeah it looked insane and totally awesome and propably every nerd let his hand slide, but pls do not forget, that harrassment always depends on the opponent reacting wrong. its no big deal, to have 1-2 turrets located well, to have permanent detection (saves mules) and to shut down immidiate warpprisms and some marauders and maybe a bunker will help. also 1-2 tactical vikings positioned shut down almost any prisms. san played a really brilliant game, but its a strategy that heavily depends on his opponents mistakes, not scouting, not having mapcontrol and not being prepared for harrass overall. and going templars bears a huge problem. what we saw sc doing was attacking like a madman over and over again on 3 bases. with those slow templars you cannot really attack, cause your zealots will get kited to death, the only thing you actually can do at all is harrassing, shut that down, get additional bases and youre fine, san was on the brink of eliminations several times, now just imagine sc had 2-3 more ghosts and some more marauders due to a fourth base....
also templars perfectly match this strategy, because they are exploiting the enemys mistakes. templars will only hit theirs storms, if the terran doesnt hit his emps you can see this in many battles, cause emp has more range and the ghost is faster /easier to micro.
overall the matches were awesome to watch, but sc just didnt play on the same level. if you just compare, what awesome things the toss did to get a win and what the terran did, the comparison will be in toss´ favor.
also san said himself, that after the first games he thought, this was going to be easy as hell, but the last games were really hard, well this kinda proves, that sc was adapting and a few more games, and he would be able to really deal well with this style i think.
overall great play by san and a bit dissappointing play by sc imo and i dont think, that we will see this style a lot more. what i can imagine though is templars for harrassment purposes only.
one sad thing though i have to note. is it really good for a matchup, if a player stays on t1-t2 units for 30 minutes into the game?
balance completely aside here. i really hope, bio-lategame will be nerfed and mech lategame kinda buffed, just to force a techswitch from the terran. regardless of balance i dont think its good for the game the way it is now.
|
On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple.
If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases.
|
On March 11 2011 12:37 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 11:53 usethis2 wrote:
In the meantime he gets even more bases and buy time for upgrades, as well as lay foundation for tech switches. Tech switches? Really? + Show Spoiler +In the match against SCfou yesterday, he teched straight for templar and never built anything else all 4 games, even though each game lasted 30-60 minutes. In the 4th game, he did this even though SCfou spent the whole game building nothing but marauders, despite already having a stargate up (he built 1 early voidray then never used it again).
In Game 1 on Metalopolis, San was preparing for a tech switch to Colossi by building double Robos at his second base and building a Robo Support Bay at his main.
Unfortunately, sC pushed into San's main and killed off every building there, including the Support Bay, before he could pump out any Colossi or utilize his double Robos in any way.
The rest of the game involved sC applying almost constant MMM pressure against San as he frantically tried to defend his expansions against the constant stream of Terran units. San was pumping all his gas into Templar to abuse Amulet to defend his expansions, and this was evident in the fact that his minerals usually spiked up over 1k while his gas was extremely low. Therefore, he simply couldn't tech switch without dying.
I think San was in a similar situation during the other games. His style was to first tech to Templar, and then tech to Colossi later once the pressure backs off for a bit. Unfortunately, sC almost never backed up his pressure, so San couldn't tech switch to anything else without spending his gas on the new tech, temporarily stop Templar production, and get rolled over by sC's superior MMM ball during the timing window when San tech switches.
Likewise, sC couldn't really switch into any other unit composition with San's Templar pressure absolutely wrecking his bases whenever he moved his attention elsewhere. Pure mech would die to storms due to its immobility and weakness against zealots, although sC could've really benefited from some blue flame Hellions in his MMM mix. Banshees would've been sniped by Feedbacks, and BCs would also be wrecked by storms and feedback.
|
On March 11 2011 18:38 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple. If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases.
3-4 cannon is enough to destroy a marauder drop, Colossi are pretty mobile if you compare them to tanks and you can warp in 5 zealot and they will deal with any kind of drop harassment from the terran. You just have to have some kind of map awareness to warp in before the drop.
Protosses have a lot of defenses against harassment, way more than zerg without muta or terran without PF.
|
maps are way too big
why doesn'T anyone listen to actionjesus
|
On March 11 2011 19:42 robih wrote:
maps are way too big
why doesn'T anyone listen to actionjesus
or bitbybit.prime
|
MC never did this style of play, MC did at best 2 base timing attacks that either killed or crippled his opponent. Actually I have never MC win when the game goes above 2 bases(vs Jinro oGsTop). Just imho.
|
It was really fun to watch, but the whole time i was just thinking about how his style won't be possible after amulet is taken out. Kinda puts shadow over the games.
|
On March 11 2011 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:38 Logros wrote:On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple. If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases. 3-4 cannon is enough to destroy a marauder drop, Colossi are pretty mobile if you compare them to tanks and you can warp in 5 zealot and they will deal with any kind of drop harassment from the terran. You just have to have some kind of map awareness to warp in before the drop. Protosses have a lot of defenses against harassment, way more than zerg without muta or terran without PF.
wow, comparing 3-4 canons destroying one drop to a repairable planetary fortress destroying a whole army is well, kinda funny. with sensor towers you see a drop coming miles ahead, take the prism out with 1-2 vikings BEFORE anything happens or simply move some rauders to the expo, you dont even need planetary, if you have free maphack -.-
|
I just wish Protoss had a decent mirror now as the other match-ups are really starting to take shape.
|
On March 11 2011 20:18 Zystra wrote:
I just wish Protoss had a decent mirror now as the other match-ups are really starting to take shape.
true that, well i seems to get better with all those anti 4gate builds around, though i hope incontrol wont prove right and this will all turn out to be a phoenix battle, which i srsly cant imagine to happen though.
|
I think we're just seeing the logical conclusion of protoss dedicating themselves to the twilight tech tree. Proxy Pylons everywhere and easily reinforceable army. My problem with SAN is that if your going to stay gateway-centric than you need to go balls to the wall in chrono boosting your double forge. He seemed very lazy about upgrading.
|
I just wonder how far he can get when you can't suddenly warp-in psy-storms all the time....
|
Sanzenith is playing the game the way it is ment to, nonstop action/conflict with drops and harass.
I loved his games, was really sceptical of him at first but seriously the last matches he played is by my account the most fun and epic pvt in starcraft 2 history and Ive watched 100% dailys, shitloads of husky/hd and all gsl aswell as shitloads of streams.
Yes there was a great PvT in GSTL but it was still plagued by a protoss deathball alot of the time with much less harassment.
|
On March 11 2011 19:42 robih wrote:
maps are way too big
why doesn'T anyone listen to actionjesus
they have not seen the light yet
someday
someday
|
I have to agree with a lot of the other posters. He actually does greatly depend on amulet warp ins. with both harass and preventing incoming aggression. One of the reasons he is able to expand so much is because he reacts as fast as a zerg would by pumping out insta-storms. This strategy can still be used i would think, after the patch, but it will be less powerful and toss will have to put more thought into expanding when it's safe.
I think the major change in his play that would have even helped him in this gsl, is that he won't depend completely on hts all game. Great unit, but like any race, when ur on 4 bases, you should have atleast two powerful tech paths. HT+Collosi are pretty deadly, and even hts and voidrays are pretty awesome against terran especially.
|
Look for Deth and change to Death.
Turtling by nature cannot be Brute Force and vice versa is not possible as well.
Solid post though I agree with the style, but I really think protoss will benefit from making sure they have a beat mixture that is used properly.
Zealots taking the hits.
Stalkers AA
Sentry GS + FF
3-4 Colossi
Target Firing with 1-2 immortals on high value targets.
HT storms in the proper placed inbetween zealot line and FF
This is all a lot of $, but I don't see how having a million colossi is helpful in a battle. When they go down they're so much supply removed from the battlefield and gateway units are not great, so you're left with a losing hand trying to get back in the game with a bluff.
Also I do understand that that would actually be incredibly sick APM, but getting the majority of that right and having a build that works well in you getting a good SOLID base of units protoss will be tearing it up.
|
The only complaint I have with his is his is that he tends to build extra robos and never uses them. You see his resource count while hes playing this mass base style but doesn't throw down extra tech routes. In most of the games he couldn't of easily punished the MM with Voidrays or colo, he had enough money.
|
I am surprised that people think San is this amazing player. It seems obvious from watching his games that he worked on a couple key areas of his play (namely early game mechanics and HT control/harass) but overall he seems really weak. In yesterdays set he pylon blocked an expo (again), Tastosis mentioned multiple times when his minerals and gas were really really high, and he didn’t demonstrate any sense that he knew what was going on in the game. He would just do shit, sometimes it would work and other times it would blow up in his face. I think someone has given him a couple simple rules and builds to follow and San just follows them without understanding why he needs to follow them. If X happens, expand (I am guessing the trigger has something to do with his money getting high). Use warp prisms to harass the mineral line. Practice HT control. The shit Day9 talks about every fucking day of the week.
San got out of the group stage because everyone wrote him off as a joke and he came out with some fairly clean timings no one was ready for. Then he played TheWind whose mechanics are obviously a bit rusty, and finally against SC who had no business being in the round of 8. SC didn’t know how to deal with the constant (and predictable) HT harass from San and had, what I would consider, weak control of his MMM army for a Code S player. While the set itself was entertaining to watch after it was over I felt like San wasn't playing to win but playing not to lose and that left me feeling really frustrated.
|
I've been saying this to all the protoss that act they won't miss amulet so much because their play wasn't templar focused, but the amulet impact is going to astronomical for PvT. For one, this style is going to become completely dead. Second, protoss will become predictable and more pigeonholed into robo to compete with mass marine. You are going to be blind countered on the ladder.
The san vs. SC series was evidence IMO. San outplayed SC pretty severely macro-wise and decision-wise and was still put in positions where he could have lost those games. SC's marauder micro was really good, but without amulet SC wins that series in a one sided way... no question about it. Those games were too close for one player to get completely outplayed and hang in there with tier 1 units and the odd ghost.
I've been playing ladder and customs since the patch notes were announced without getting amulet and trying to go for storm. It's actually a terrible and non-viable way to play the matchup without amulet because the terrans I play are actually good and know when to move and when to tank the damage on their marauders. They also know how to spread their units really nicely so it comes down to unit efficiency.
I'm of the school of thought that felt amulet was too powerful, but that modifying it would be appropriate or just making all casters start at 63 energy. Being able to pay 50/150 for an instant storm anywhere you have a pylon is a bit ridiculous, but honestly if you are accustomed to the HT-oriented style in the matchup and haven't tried playing without amulet try it out and see how utterly impossible it is to beat a good terran player.
Even if you don't use this playstyle I guarantee you are going to feel the effects of this change. Guaranteed. Even if you never built a single templar in PvT, you will feel the impact.
|
3 Protoss in the top 4. Protoss fightinggggg <3
|
On March 11 2011 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:38 Logros wrote:On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple. If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases. 3-4 cannon is enough to destroy a marauder drop, Colossi are pretty mobile if you compare them to tanks and you can warp in 5 zealot and they will deal with any kind of drop harassment from the terran. You just have to have some kind of map awareness to warp in before the drop. Protosses have a lot of defenses against harassment, way more than zerg without muta or terran without PF.
Except, why would you compare colossus mobility to tanks, when the style San is trying to deal with is MMM being all over the map? Compare their mobility to the composition in question, which is ***MMM***.
Also, why would you compare Protoss defense to races without their integral defense? Which Terran doesn't put up Planetaries? Your statement is just flawed. Zerg and Terran have way more defense drops than Protoss without cannons and warp gates (see what I did there?).
Not really sure how you can think you can take the worst case scenario from one side and best case scenario from the other, and just assume fairness...
|
some tosses found out what they have to do to jump over colossi tree if they want storm anyway and also how to expand pretty savely. (and most of the time the ugg so unworthy to build warp prism does the job here, but if the pros don't use em they must be bad)
And no it doesn't feel like zerg how he plays, it feels like bw toss. (as zergs won't harass they doom drop or sucide hehe) (also you always want those observers especially since they are 3 times cheaper and faster to get as they were in bw and pay of so fast)
|
On March 11 2011 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:38 Logros wrote:On March 11 2011 17:12 me_viet wrote:On March 11 2011 14:21 usethis2 wrote:On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:
mass expo cannon turtle.
Not sure how you can put those two together. Mass expo = turtle? That's an intriguing concept. lol it's when you take expos but with alot of cannons to defend it =O like a T that masses expo but puts up only PF's and Turrets. Simple. If you ever played protoss you know how fast a small group of stimmed marauders will snipe a nexus and even with 3-4 cannons there they'll just lol all over it. A Colossus army is alot more immobile so you need templars when you have to protect a lot of bases. 3-4 cannon is enough to destroy a marauder drop, Colossi are pretty mobile if you compare them to tanks and you can warp in 5 zealot and they will deal with any kind of drop harassment from the terran. You just have to have some kind of map awareness to warp in before the drop. Protosses have a lot of defenses against harassment, way more than zerg without muta or terran without PF.
lol, bullshit, 4 cannons can't never enough to stop 2 dropships full of marauders, stim marauders are just 1 shot kill cannon. Please learn how to play the game.
|
san reminded me a lot of [oops]reach, who influenced a lot of how i played; play protoss like zerg.
i'm still old school so i use templar exclusively except in pvp. and expanding like zerg was the bw way of play protoss. san is on his way of becoming my favorite player as long as he makes less mistakes ^_^ (like the confused DT in metalopolis)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
