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On March 11 2011 12:13 StarscreamG1 wrote: San - SC was the most boring best of five series I've seen on gsl. 3 hours of Zealots+Storm Vs Marauders.
LOL wtf
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I would also like to note how I liked SanZenith has not attempted to cheese his opponents. ManZenith, for real. (No cannons, hidden gateways, or even 4-gates)
That's not why he's manZenith, the original Mantoss cheesed all the time.
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San, is good. Though he showed stubbornness in todays matches to adapt. I like going for a mostly warpgate army, coupled with Templar early.
However i feel it would have benefited him more, in the late game to try and get up just 2 or 3 Colossi. Those games wouldn't have been nearly as competitive had he found an appropriate time to do so.
While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions.
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On March 11 2011 12:13 StarscreamG1 wrote: San - SC was the most boring best of five series I've seen on gsl. 3 hours of Zealots+Storm Vs Marauders.
I'll admit both players stubbornness to adapt was annoying. While it wasn't the best play, that was one of the most entertaining series to watch.
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On March 11 2011 13:07 Cyanocyst wrote: While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions. This just isn't true, as was seen in the match where San ran out of gas. The terran army was far more cost-efficient throughout most of this series.
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Honestly out of the 2 protoss that played yesterday both of them would have lost completly or lost earlier at least without kaydarian amulet , so many times all the HT's the protoss had got empd and he would have to rely on warping in more too get off storms, so with kaydarian amulet it may seem a bit overpowered but without it protoss would defenetly seem underpowered should they chose high templar tech, its a conundrum.
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IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars.
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I like it, it's a nice variation, but I think SanZenith would crumple to a more aggressive Terran player, like MarineKing or MVP. So many times in his match with SCfOu I think he could have been finished off by a final push that never came. I really disliked those matches - they were "epic," sure, but full of mistakes and very frustrating to watch, I'm afraid. SanZenith needed to take so many bases because his strat was just so ridiculously gas heavy. I wish he had thrown some immortals into his composition, considering he was facing pure mass marauder.
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On March 11 2011 13:11 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:07 Cyanocyst wrote: While his mass expand style was interesting, I thought he was careless with when/where he put up nexii. Not to mention Protoss has the most efficient late game army, So they don't really need to be ahead in expansions. This just isn't true, as was seen in the match where San ran out of gas. The terran army was far more cost-efficient throughout most of this series.
lol, yeah sure when your trying to beat mass marauder with Ht, Zealot. Then the Terran army is much more cost efficient.
Marauders can actually kite charged Zealots when stimmed, and weather storms well. Combine that with the fact that medivcas are healing. San simply didn't have an optimal unit composition. You shouldn't base your whole opinion of racial characteristic on one game.
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On March 11 2011 12:09 Wr3k wrote: One thing I'm not a huge fan of is how he doesn't seem to utilize immortal/colossi once opponents add ghosts. He also needlessly donates alot of zealots. Hes no MC, but I'm still fairly impressed.
awww wrek you switched to toss?
miss watching your streams
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On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote: IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars.
lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time.
Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base.
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His style revolves around 2 key points IMO. First and foremost, his style foccuses on improving the units that you can get quickly and replenish, which are the gateway units. How do you do this? Get the twilight council early! Its a cheap tech improvement that boost your army highly. Zealots inflict more damage and blink improves maneauverability. This not only bolsters your already existing gateway units, you also open up the tech path to templars. This means there is an easy transition to a higher tech while you also boost your existing army of gateway units. Another point is its similarity to the zerg style. What makes this "zerg like" is the ease of replenishing your units quickly in case of emergency. Has anyone here ever considered planting 20 gateways rather than going colo? The big disadvantage of going colo is that when you mess up your colo and they get killed, say you messed up, you cannot replenish them quickly. They are also very resource heavy and immobile. Comparing this to San's style, you can pump out zealots and stalkers like theres no tomorrow but still have enough gas to pump out spellcasters (sentry early game and templar late game). core units like zealots and stalkers arent that gas heavy. that means you have leeway to pump out more spell casters if you need them ASAP to locations where the action is taking. Compare this to colo who has to expose himself and tread all the way from the robo bay to your army group.
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His real name is Cho-Won Kang. I call him Chobbie Won Kenobi! I love his off beat style. Like George Forman you can hit him and hit him, but he won't back up or go down. You just wear yourself out pounding on him.
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The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it.
On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote: watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either
On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote: IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base.
In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play.
As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in.
It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle.
And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it.
But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend.
So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways.
Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now...
Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
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If Blizzard does take out the Amulet, this playstyle would die off. San almost lost vs pure marauder, so he would have to go Colossi just to counter terran T1
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san's play is definitely more solid but you have to remember he did 6 gate nestea off of 2 bases which is somewhat all in and he did it again to another zerg i cant remember. He definitely tries to play a macro oriented style but not always...
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I wonder how well san will be able to cope if ever the amulet does get taken out. It would affect his play more than the other protosses since he's so reliant in mid to late Psi Storms.
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I think you are over estimating his early game. He opens DTs because any pressure that terran does early will not have a raven and they are good for map control all game long. Then he relies on HTs to survive and eventually wins. It would be more interesting to see a better tech switch from him after he's on 4+ base i.e. 4 robo or 3 stargate carriers. I think Tyler from his showmatch against Jinro and ladder play is demonstrating a much more solid form of toss play, not relying on trying to abuse High temps and sort of crossing your fingers that they are OP enough.
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United States15275 Posts
On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote: watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote: IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base. In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play. As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in. It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle. And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it. But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend. So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways. Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now... Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
Putting cannons at your expansions isn't "turtling". It's common sense.
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Canada13379 Posts
On March 11 2011 13:57 avilo wrote:The style sanszenith used isn't new, lots of protoss players have been playing this turtle style protoss for a while now, it's very difficult to attack into because there will be a cannon flower at every base like PvZ SC1 style, except you get free warp in storms which is why blizzard is nerfing it. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 12:10 Skyze wrote: watch San's play today, it makes me really think that kind of play will be doomed once Amulet is gone.. In his games he BARELY held on vs the marauder balls, and only way he held on is due to the templars warping in last second to storm.. And that is why I think storm is needed with amulet, if they nerf that, templar play will go back to having to be after collosus...
so hopefully blizzard realises this and doesnt remove amulet. I mean, was there ever any screams of "imbalance" from amulet?? Hell, San barely won with it this morning vs terran. and its not like the terran played solid either Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 13:35 KillerPenguin wrote:On March 11 2011 13:19 link0 wrote: IMO SanZenith's style is actually the easiest style to play. Just turtle and tech to templars. lol, hell no, do u even play protoss? You need insane apm to manage a few bases, harass, and split up templars to avoid emp while doing perfect short range storms with feedback, while not letting your zealots get kited to hell. There is a reason few protoss prefer this way especially if they don't have their 3rd yet. Whitera even has many games where he has fail micro trying to pull this off because his apm cannot hold up all the time. Removal of amulet will rape this econ heavy templar style play there is no way those matches would be anything like they were. Without amulet he would have been destroyed rather than a very even long match when he was up a base. In response to these two posts, and adding to what linko said, this style is actually one of the easiest to play. As link0 said, and to elaborate, you start off playing "standard," basically any solid style, and then you begin to expand and mass cannons literally everywhere on the map and tech up to the amulet. Once you have the amulet, your expansions as P no longer can be cost effectively taken out, as you also have your 200/200 main army and 30 gateways for storm warp-in + zealot warp-in. It is definitely one of the most abusable protoss styles to play while the amulet is still in the game, and lots of protoss on ladder right now play pvt with the goal of simply surviving until they research the amulet into mass expo cannon turtle. And you are skyze you're also over-exaggerating not being able to survive without the amulet. WITH the amulet, an abusable style like this is possible where you have the "ez button" instant storm at any point on the map. It means any situation where Terran worked hard to gain an advantage right now is instantly negated from storm warp-in. Which is why blizzard is removing it. But where you are wrong, is this style will still be 100% possible next patch. The key difference being that when you play this turtle protoss cannon mass expo style, you will have to warp in templars to each expansion in advance, which means that when Terran has worked hard and gained an advantage, protoss cannot lazily insta-warp-in storms to the expansion that is currently about to be sieged. Forethought will be required on placing templar at those expansions, just like in SC1 PvZ where you'd have cannon flowers and a templar or two already at the base gathering energy to defend. So, yah this style is incredibly strong and more should be doing it. And with the amulet nerf, it will still be possible next patch, just not as EZmode. Just like when tanks got nerfed from T. It's still possible to use them, it's just much harder, which is overall good for the game in some ways. Also, you have to keep in mind that the style sanszenith displayed was dedicating all of his entire vespene gas reserve to only templars. He was not utilizing as many forcefields and immortals+stalkers or even collosus that are already a hard counter to marauder bio balls. So protoss will be entirely fine next patch, they already are doing a little bit tooo good right now... Regardless of all that, that series was goddamn amazing, i dunno how anyone could have been disappointed with those games.
What you fail to take into account when considering the PvT in SC2 in comparison to PvZ in BW is that in BW you could collect more energy and use storm earlier by getting an energy upgrade. Do i agree insta storms are bad? Yes. Should High Templar start with 50 energy and get no option for +max energy or + x% energy? No I don't think so.
My reason being that when on the back foot, High Templar become completely useless for the protoss with only 50 starting energy. I dont feel that instant storms is legitimate for a number of reasons. First being that it is too easy to defend, second and more importantly is you can warp in 5 seconds a way to destroy an entire mineral line.
45 seconds to build enough energy for one storm should an engagement fall poorly and terran counter is imo limiting gameplay and limiting the options for HT tech. I feel that instead of removing upgrades they should be changed
Further, while you try to explain your position you seem to only look at it from the perpsective of a Terran player. San did turtle but I dont feel that he turtled behind mass cannon. At his most forward base he did cannon up but he also focused on harass. San was also trying to take ground prior to expanding and placing cannons.
Its basically (IMO) a Protoss version of a slow push using storms to zone and create an apprehensiveness in the Terran providing time to allow expos to go up and cannons to complete to help defend.
Without amulet we won't see anything quite like san's play earlier and I am ok with that but I do want to see templar tech played with more and to remove the energy completely devotes them to being a secondary high tech unit as opposed a primary high tech unit. What we may see is more collossus into some templar. However, the fragility of the templar and the long wait time for a storm may make some people pause and think that another collossus or 3 more stalkers is more worth it (gas wise).
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