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On March 10 2011 07:42 Sein wrote:
What kind of reactions are you talking about? The vast majority of the posts are saying "Kelly is not a good fit for this job" rather than some unwarranted personal attacks like "Kelly's English sucks and she should be ashamed".
English is my second language and I can sympathize with what you've been through. I'm sure that you are a great computer scientist and most likely a good person as well. However, if I was an employer interviewing people for a profession that heavily involves public speaking, would I have picked you when you were having speech problems or picked me when I was still very new to English? I would have to say no to both.
It's not so much the comments about people complaining that Kelly is hard to understand, but that some people seem to use this as a way to conclude she is dumb or doesn't know what she is talking about. Kelly's knowledge isn't at the level of Artosis, but neither is Tasteless, or anyone else. I just find it funny people complain Kelly doesn't know anything or give any insight but have no complaints about Doa on the same subject. Not trying to bash Doa but I can't just help but detect a double standard here.
On a personal note, must of my speech problems went away after taking speech classes when I started kindergarten until the 5th grade, but the mocking and criticism I had due to speech during that age is very scarring. I hardly ever hear complaints about my speech now, though I am still very self-conscious when I speak. I know if I was getting as much criticism as Kelly is getting I wouldn't have the courage to go on a live stream and talk again and again. I respect her for that and wish her the best.
tldr; Speech/communication doesn't equal knowledge or intelligence.
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On March 10 2011 07:35 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:08 Lonyo wrote:On March 10 2011 05:37 Chill wrote:On March 10 2011 05:36 JWD wrote:On March 10 2011 05:34 Chill wrote:On March 10 2011 05:28 JWD wrote:On March 10 2011 05:26 Chill wrote:
Okay, so my new theory is:
1. GOM selected DoA and Moletrap to be casters.
2. They couldn't make it immediately because of real life; Kelly could.
3. They hired Kelly immediately, made up this story about trials.
4. Moletrap scheduled to come, they said trial over.
Maybe not true, but at least I can justify the logic in my head as opposed to the current things GOM are saying. You don't think they hired Kelly indefinitely, but backed off and brought Moletrap in once the community blew up over it? And are now using the bit about trial casters to make Kelly's departure look better for both GOM and Kelly? It's certainly possible and does make more sense. I'm modifying the theory! GOM Evil Theory rev. 2.1:1. GOM puts out a call for casters and reviews all applicants 2. GOM focuses on availability moreso than ability. 3. Kelly is the most available and is hired immediately and openly. 4. DoA is also hired but requires a month due to real life. 5. Kelly has largely negative feedback. 6. GOM announces the "trial" and contacts Moletrap. 7. Moletrap announces he will go to Korea. 8. The trial period ends. What do you think? BTW I've been playing a lot of Phoenix Wright hahaha. Yep, I like that theory very much. It's the simplest one that explains everything I know about the situation (is consistent with the statements from GOM and Kelly I've read). Also talks with GOM seem to favour the theory of point #2. Timeline points to: 16th Feb: Kelly announces herself as caster on her twitter 21st Feb: GSL Code A starts and Kelly casts her first game 21st Feb: Moletrap posts a Youtube video saying he is going to Korean on a TRIAL for 2~3 weeks. 24th Feb: Kelly says she's leaving Korea on 17th March. 9th March: Conspiracy theories that Kelly was never on a trial and the whole trial thing is a lie. GOM made it up over the course of 5 days before Kelly had actually casted anything and ensured Moletrap released a carefully worded Youtube video including a time period and the word trial in order to cover up their mistake of inviting Kelly to cast. Well when you put it this way... it seems plausible! Anyways, I guess it is a trial system. Do you think they'll ship off Moletrap and just keep bringing in caster after caster?
I have a feeling that GOM has a few more casters lined up for trials. Wolf vaguely mentioned that he may have been considered for casting. If Doa's sudden appearance out of nowhere is of any indication, there are probably going to be quite a few more relative unknowns that have the possibility of suddenly appearing at Code A after GOM randomly announces their appearance the night before their cast.
Considering that I heard that GOM doesn't compensate for travel and lodging, it's quite cost efficient for them to rotate in lesser casters to allow for Tastosis to rest up and to allow for an ample amount of community feedback for their casters before making their final decision.
Moletrap did say that he was staying in Korea for several weeks, and I have a feeling that he plans on returning after his evaluation period is done. I have a feeling that GOM might go through several iterations of casters before making their final decision. With all the feedback that they will receive for their pool of casters, they should have an easier time choosing the right caster for a more long-term casting contract.
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On March 10 2011 07:11 petergibbons wrote:If you have butterfingers, you probably shouldn't be a surgeon. If you have a stutter, you probably shouldn't be a salesman. If you have a thick accent, you probably shouldn't be casting Starcraft 2. Kelly didn't deserve all the flak she got for sure, but the complaint people had, that her accent is too thick, was not unfounded. Show nested quote +For being the most tolerant and mature community out there, we really fucked up this time! Show nested quote +You're an asshole. People like you made her leave/get fired (whatever happened). This community has been absolute garbage to her. I honestly feel sorry for Kelly. Show nested quote +I wonder if she left behind a decent job in Singapore to pursue her dream, only to see it shattered by legions of internet trolls like us... Comments like these make me scratch my head. If they're referring to the extremely rude comments that were made, then sure, I was ashamed of those, too. It sounds, however, like some people are suggesting that we shouldn't have complained even if we didn't like her casting, which is as ridiculous and degrading to her as affirmative action and white guilt. Sure, she has a pair of ovaries and is from Singapore, but what reason is that for treating her differently? She is an adult: she knew the risks she was taking when she left Singapore for Korea. (If she didn't, this has been a valuable lesson to her.) It's ridiculous to see some of the people in this community flagellating themselves for something that was completely reasonable. Yes, it's regrettable that some people at TL were bad to her, but treat her with the same amount of respect and scrutiny you would any other adult.
Excellent. QFT. I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize that this is a perfectly normal thing.
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On March 10 2011 08:00 dogmeatstew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:35 exarchrum wrote:On March 10 2011 07:01 dogmeatstew wrote:On March 10 2011 05:57 Gentso wrote:On March 10 2011 05:56 dogmeatstew wrote:
Pretty sure half the people here would complain if GOM hired a british caster because "he has an accent"...
Seriously. You're completely out of whack. Generally, people enjoy British accents. But what's that have to do with anything? Sure people like British accents so maybe not the best example, however my point is that historically English is not "America's language" so the fact that the population of that country expects the rest of the world to form their dialect of English to match perfectly to the developed American *accent* is completely ridiculous. I have a Canadian accent, most people on this site have an American accent, a large portion have any mix of European accents etc. The point here is that its arrogant and self centred to expect other cultures to conform to you way of speaking (especially when its a borrowed language anyway, in a sense) and that basing someone's desirability as a caster on whether you can understand them as a product of how close their speech patterns are to the American dialect is absurd; especially without giving yourself a chance to adjust to hearing the accent and making better sense of it with less effort over time. tl;dr my point is that this thread is full of a bunch of ethnocentric whiners who refuse to adjust to anything that isn't what they already know. I don't think it is an ethnocentric view to say that a particular accent is difficult to understand. Certain accents have more clarity to them, even among native english speakers. For instance a thick Boston accent or Southern twang can be extremely difficult to understand, even for Americans. Most TV broadcasters in the US have neutral accents and for the most part are easy to understand. There are some thick accents from the UK (I want to say Yorkshire accent? Not sure though) that I can't understand a word of. Listening to a news reporter from the BBC provides some of the clearest and most enjoyable English to the ear. Even within a country full of accents, news and sports broadcasts select people with clarity and smoothness. There is a reason why you don't hear a Boston accent from a news anchor on CNN. The point I'm trying to make is that it is perfectly reasonable to want a caster with good clarity and pronunciation. These attributes are the norm within the broadcast industry. That being said, people were extremely hostile toward Kelly. It was unwarranted and rude. Criticism can be made without bashing someone into oblivion. Kelly is a nice person, and is clearly working really hard. She clearly enjoys casting, and her personality has really begun to shine through. However she can be difficult to understand at times. I don't think saying this is rude, ethnocentric, racist, or whatever other label someone wants to put on this. It is an observation and nothing more. I feel bad that Kelly was contracted for only one season and will be leaving, but I think GOM is making the right move in trying to find a solid casting team. I'll admit that original post was a little more rage filled that it needed to be and I do agree with you that some accents are simply clearer and cleaner than others (I think the British accent you were looking for is like cockney or Liverpool, York really isn't so bad) however I do still feel that alot of the accent hating comes from a form of ethnocentricity... well either that or just from sheer sloth. I won't try and argue that its harder to listen to accents you are unfamiliar with but I simply want to make the point that she's speaking a valid form of English and the inability of the rest of us to adapt to that isn't her fault in any way; to say differently on this matter is effectively saying that you don't think anyone should be casting if they don't have a pleasant familiar accent. From my experience, both from travelling and the horrors of post secondary instructors, strange accents become very easy to understand after a fairly short period of time, you just need to adapt and I don't feel that the starcraft 2 community is willing to give anything like that a chance, which sadly again, despite it being unintentional and unconscious does reflect a from of ethnocentricity.
I personally am really into Asians, especially girls(well solely =S), so that obviously would only be a positive to me. However, it's really annoying to have to concentrate on what the caster is saying instead of enjoying the games.
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On March 10 2011 07:49 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:35 exarchrum wrote:On March 10 2011 07:01 dogmeatstew wrote:On March 10 2011 05:57 Gentso wrote:On March 10 2011 05:56 dogmeatstew wrote:
Pretty sure half the people here would complain if GOM hired a british caster because "he has an accent"...
Seriously. You're completely out of whack. Generally, people enjoy British accents. But what's that have to do with anything? Sure people like British accents so maybe not the best example, however my point is that historically English is not "America's language" so the fact that the population of that country expects the rest of the world to form their dialect of English to match perfectly to the developed American *accent* is completely ridiculous. I have a Canadian accent, most people on this site have an American accent, a large portion have any mix of European accents etc. The point here is that its arrogant and self centred to expect other cultures to conform to you way of speaking (especially when its a borrowed language anyway, in a sense) and that basing someone's desirability as a caster on whether you can understand them as a product of how close their speech patterns are to the American dialect is absurd; especially without giving yourself a chance to adjust to hearing the accent and making better sense of it with less effort over time. tl;dr my point is that this thread is full of a bunch of ethnocentric whiners who refuse to adjust to anything that isn't what they already know. I don't think it is an ethnocentric view to say that a particular accent is difficult to understand. Certain accents have more clarity to them, even among native english speakers. For instance a thick Boston accent or Southern twang can be extremely difficult to understand, even for Americans. Most TV broadcasters in the US have neutral accents and for the most part are easy to understand. There are some thick accents from the UK (I want to say Yorkshire accent? Not sure though) that I can't understand a word of. Listening to a news reporter from the BBC provides some of the clearest and most enjoyable English to the ear. Even within a country full of accents, news and sports broadcasts select people with clarity and smoothness. There is a reason why you don't hear a Boston accent from a news anchor on CNN. The point I'm trying to make is that it is perfectly reasonable to want a caster with good clarity and pronunciation. These attributes are the norm within the broadcast industry. A southie accent (most people in Boston don't have a "Boston" accent) is easy to understand. Just add "r"s. I've never met someone who had trouble with Southern accents before, though, and I live in Boston. Hell, most kids cartoons have a "Texan" character nowadays. There's no such thing as a "neutral" accent, by the way. It just sounds that way because you're so used to it.
Sure, there neutral accents are what people are used to, but from that there are certain norms that english speaking populations come to except. Listen to the news - you will hear people speaking with good pronunciation and clarity.
Obviously there seems to be a difference in philosophy, values or something like that. But I believe someone broadcasting should have an enjoyable voice to listen to, and along with that have good pronunciation and clarity in their speech.
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On March 10 2011 07:57 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:55 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:
I think she's definitely improved while casting Code A. Quite frankly I think her analysis and game sense are quite good, the only thing holding her back is her accent, and it's not even that tough to understand.
Everyone flaming her should feel like an asshole. Imagine if you went to cast GSL in Korean and the members of Teamliquid, who represent the SC2 community, flamed you because of your pronunciation. If you look at the important parts of casting, namely the actual discussion of the game, she did a good job. To me that's what matters most, but I guess people feel differently. But she said things like "He is taking drones off gas after getting speed, looks like he is going all in speedling". I really don't think her game sense was very impressive either.
But Artosis and Tasteless say things like that too. That's the thing: no one is a perfect caster.
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It's really sad to see here leaving, I know as John said it is sort of a Beta thing, but it's only one season, and it's really hard to judge after one season. Personally, I like her a lot more than the new guy they got.
Not even Tastosis started perfect, I mean they were great from day one, but not perfect, and you can't expect every caster and caster duo to be anything like them, they really are a match made in heaven.
Hopefully she continues to cast and stay active in the community, personally I wouldn't mind seeing her back, and honestly I'm not sure if there are any casters better than her out there willing to go to Korea and replace her, but I'm still optimistic someone will prove me wrong on that one.
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I didn't watch Code A, but not because of Kelly, I didn't watch Code A last season either. That said this whole sequence of events made me ashamed in this community.
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"I think the spotlight is on me because i have an asian accent and i am female" Seriously, i mean sorry, what kinda weak argument is that and i'm talking about the last part.
As i see it because you're a female is only a + because there is barely any females in the starcraft universe which makes it even more exciting and i'm pretty sure that even if she looked like a hot model with blonde hair but had the same accent, non native english westernes would still ditch her because we can't understand the thing that excites us most, and that is what happens IN the game.
I bet / hope that half of us if she was a singaporean male with the exactly same accent we would still be ditching just as hard because it's the game we care about and whats in focus for us. She needs to think a little more out of the box here, half of TL must be over 18 and mature enough not to go completely white knight over a gurl in da starcraft universe. Just my 5 cent
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On March 10 2011 07:51 -Archangel- wrote:
You know what people are really good at?
Deluding themselves. Almost nobody will ever admit openly that they are at fault for something but there is always someone else or something else to blame.
I am sure in her mind it was easier to blame others then herself. If she was black I am sure she would blame white people...
As someone who is black I find this comment extremely ignorant and inappropriate.
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Seltzer! Does she do any commentary?
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On March 10 2011 07:50 JustPassingBy wrote:
- No, she is not impossible to understand. If you really can't understand her, you should rather worry about your seriously lacking skill in languages, than who is casting what sc2 tournament.
- Yes, she has a thick accent and quite an irritating one. I know that might not be mainly her fault, rather the educational system of singapore, but guess what, life's not always fair. Short people can't persue a career in high jump. Some people gain weight faster than others.
- No, accents can be trained to become better. It's incredibly hard though, but somebody who wants to persue a casting career with an unattractive accent should try to work on it. If you cannot, then the lack of dedication doesn't qualify you to cast one of the most prestigious sc2 tournaments in the world (not saying that casting in general is out of question!!!).
I'll add another point
- Yes, her analytical skills might've been alright and had potential for more, but that's not all there is to casting. A good chunk of it is also having an attractive (as in well-sounding) cast. Whether that weighs more than analytical skills or not depends only on personal preferences. A good caster basically has to be the audio equivalence of a model, there's no need to be perfekt in every aspect, but if there is one aspect that is not good, then you're not suited for the job.
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On March 10 2011 07:48 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:45 MisterPuppy wrote:
i've seen korean casting teams being two guys and a girl quite a few times. were they trying to replicate this and it just didn't work out with kelly?
getting girls involved in starcraft is incredibly important for its growth, and I hope that the community's complete idiotic response to Kelly the first time won't scare more girls away. Her interview saying that one of the reasons why she had backlash was because she's a girl and its a male dominated community really didn't help though :\. Absolutely NO ONE has said they dislike her casting due to her gender. Stop making it an issue--it's not.
http://i.imgur.com/HCFZV.jpg
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GOM is selling a product... they want to appeal to the most people... Kelly didn't fit in well to that end. I don't understand why you guys are getting all self righteous about accepting people with extremely grating accents to cast in English. GOM wants to both attract new people and retain old people to buy their tickets. To have a person presenting your product that makes you want to mute the sound then there's a big problem there. She had that effect on alot of people, myself included.
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On March 10 2011 07:55 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:
I think she's definitely improved while casting Code A. Quite frankly I think her analysis and game sense are quite good, the only thing holding her back is her accent, and it's not even that tough to understand.
Everyone flaming her should feel like an asshole. Imagine if you went to cast GSL in Korean and the members of Teamliquid, who represent the SC2 community, flamed you because of your pronunciation. If you look at the important parts of casting, namely the actual discussion of the game, she did a good job. To me that's what matters most, but I guess people feel differently.
It isn't just the SC2 community, its her OWN community that flamed her. That's what is truly sad. Can you imagine going moving to a country to go for a job only to have everyone hate you and insult you because you do something different? I found her commentary to be interesting and she was quick to announce when things were building. While she did make mistakes at time predicting builds and judging battles, at least she made an effort.
The role models of this community need to become actual role models, yes you are human and yes you can have your fun but certain people who are highly looked up upon in e-sports need to rethink how they act in front of thousands of viewers. I think this whole situation got blown out of proportions.
Good luck Kelly on your future endeavors. I hope you become successful sometime in the future for your commentaries.
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Too bad. I much prefered her commentary to the majority of youtube casters.
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On March 10 2011 08:08 Kazzabiss wrote:
I didn't watch Code A, but not because of Kelly, I didn't watch Code A last season either. That said this whole sequence of events made me ashamed in this community.
lol okay buddy
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On March 10 2011 08:12 MisterPuppy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:48 reDicE wrote:On March 10 2011 07:45 MisterPuppy wrote:
i've seen korean casting teams being two guys and a girl quite a few times. were they trying to replicate this and it just didn't work out with kelly?
getting girls involved in starcraft is incredibly important for its growth, and I hope that the community's complete idiotic response to Kelly the first time won't scare more girls away. Her interview saying that one of the reasons why she had backlash was because she's a girl and its a male dominated community really didn't help though :\. Absolutely NO ONE has said they dislike her casting due to her gender. Stop making it an issue--it's not. http://i.imgur.com/HCFZV.jpg
And? The only person in that article making gender an issue is Kelly. All of the comments on the side are about her accent, except for the one comment that was praising her because she looked great. What's your point with this?
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For what its worth, initially I was a Kelly hater.
3 days in though, I had forgotten.
I'd welcome her return in season 6. I wouldn't mind seeing a few other casters be given a go. Day9, TB, or Unstable.
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On March 10 2011 08:12 MisterPuppy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:48 reDicE wrote:On March 10 2011 07:45 MisterPuppy wrote:
i've seen korean casting teams being two guys and a girl quite a few times. were they trying to replicate this and it just didn't work out with kelly?
getting girls involved in starcraft is incredibly important for its growth, and I hope that the community's complete idiotic response to Kelly the first time won't scare more girls away. Her interview saying that one of the reasons why she had backlash was because she's a girl and its a male dominated community really didn't help though :\. Absolutely NO ONE has said they dislike her casting due to her gender. Stop making it an issue--it's not. http://i.imgur.com/HCFZV.jpg
I don't know why you linked that image. In it she says that she thinks that the spotlight is on her because of her accent and the fact that she's a female. While the part about her being disliked as a caster because of her accent is true, the part about her being female is unfounded and untrue. How many of the posts in this thread that says they're okay with her leaving says they dislike her as a commentator because she's a female? I'll bet you not a single one.
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EPT
