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The fact is that Blizzard turned HSM, reapers, now mothership (after the vortex nerf, I don't see a real reason why people would invest infinite time+ chronoboost + 400 gaz in a gigantic ball which does nothing really good) into nearly useless units after over-nerfing them.
These were the most interisting spells/units, now they're absolute garbage units and Blizzard seems to not be concerned about it.
I mean what is wrong with them ? It's pretty obvious that no one is using HSM nor reapers (ye i know somebody might make 1 to scout at the beginning...), nor carriers anymore... What are they waiting for to buff these units ? Do they plan to wait an infinite amount of time, until they have the absolute certitude that indeed these units were (almost) useless ?
I guess ex Starcraft Brood War players believe in Blizzard's ability to balance the game (or pro to find innovative ways to make good use of these units), but War3 players such as myself don't share the same faith.
People need to keep in mind that War3 balance have always been horrible ... Since day1 people thought at balancing the game themselves (there was even a Korean scandal about it...), and it was just unthinkable to not have balance discussions in the War3 forum. The game ended up being 1 dimensional and very boring and I'm afraid that the same display of incompetence could very well happen once again, in fact I'm not very optimistic about the future. Well to not be too alarming, I have to admit that I'm not that pessimistic either.
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You seriously just claimed that the priority on e-sport design is on crowd appeal over the need to create a fair game
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Nothing was interesting about randoms winning tournaments with 5 rax reaper sorry
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On March 05 2011 20:54 SlapMySalami wrote:
The reason reapers were nerfed is because reaper/ling 2s were dominating the 2s scene. It was literally impossible for comps like P/P to beat this. I do not have a source I think it was in an interview.
You don't really believe they nerfed reapers because of 2v2 do you?
Morrow (before switching to zerg) popularized a brainless 5rax reaper into marine/marauder that was literally impossible for zerg to stop.
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They made less balance patches but many more changes per balance patch..... look at the first balance changes and just see how many there are, so far in sc2 since release they have made a few changes often instead of many changes at once.
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On March 06 2011 00:06 HorsetraineR wrote:
This game is not even a year old and you start discussing balance, wait another year or two, then start discussing wether or not blizzard needs to take a drastic turn in their game design, as of right now, the game is too fresh to even be balanced. it took 4-5 years before SC even became close to balanced, still isnt in my opinion.
give it a rest.
After reading this, am i still the only one who think some Blizzard employees are paid to post on forums and troll the different SC2 communities threads?
On March 06 2011 00:20 Toadvine wrote:
Totally in agreement with the OP. I sort of think that the SC2 development team have sort of designed themselves into a corner, and are now merely trying to salvage whatever balanced gameplay they can. In a sense, they're treating the symptoms, rather than the illness. Anyone can look at 5RR and yell "nerf reapers!", as anyone can see how overpowered warp-in storms or speedrays can feel in any given game. Thing is, these are just symptoms of some bad core design decisions.
Your post is also good, it's a good complement to OP.
I'm pretty sure some "smart" changes would easily fix a lot of problems. About the warp-in mechanics for example, i've always thought that it needs a fix to "invert" the production change time for all units, example: if you choose to mute your gateways into warpgates, then units takes more time to be build instead of less (making the upgrade more logical and balanced imo) - for example 5-10 secs more. This will balance the warp mechanic and add another strategic aspect. Honestly, who has ever switch from warpgate mode to gateway mode? Never seen that, so why give this option? This show how lost Blizzard is with the core of SC2.
Reaper as you said is also a good example, this is the "awesome, fun, new unit" that noone use or just one time per game, and as a stronger scv, to scout ...
The critical problem with Blizzard last patches is that changes are not meant to make the game better, they're just intended to quickly get rid of problems: "Wtf reapers a little too strong in TvZ? Ok let's nerf this shit so we never hear about it anymore". Same with void speed upgrade, same with templar amulet, etc ...
That's just crazy.
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On March 06 2011 10:20 parn wrote:
The critical problem with Blizzard last patches is that changes are not meant to make the game better, they're just intended to quickly get rid of problems: "Wtf reapers a little too strong in TvZ? Ok let's nerf this shit so we never hear about it anymore". Same with void speed upgrade, same with templar amulet, etc ...
That's just crazy.
This. For example, if Roaches were buffed to 4 range before they "fixed" 5-rax reaper, it may have never been a problem and Terran could have an added legitimate early game strategy. Instead, Blizzard is looking at what people are having problems with at the time and is just removing them. A few weeks or months is not enough time to flesh out a strategy and solve all of the problems with it. Imbalances may or may not be there, but Blizzard should just be tweaking aspects of the game rather than drastically changing or removing them.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 06 2011 09:54 Kicks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 20:54 SlapMySalami wrote:
The reason reapers were nerfed is because reaper/ling 2s were dominating the 2s scene. It was literally impossible for comps like P/P to beat this. I do not have a source I think it was in an interview.
You don't really believe they nerfed reapers because of 2v2 do you? Morrow (before switching to zerg) popularized a brainless 5rax reaper into marine/marauder that was literally impossible for zerg to stop.
It wasn't quite impossible, but it was incredibly hard, you basically had to outplay the terran very very well for a long period of time to hold it, and it put zerg into a position where he had no options whatsoever, because if terran decided to go for the 5 rax reaper rush and you didn't do the ONE response that could deal with it, you auto lost. The problem with that is, if the terran didn't go for 5 rax reaper, you're boned.
It was terrible for the matchup. Of course, they completely missed the obvious solution to the problem, which is what a lot of people are arguing for. Put hydralisks back on t1 and roaches on t2, and modify the stats and costs of both units slightly. Hydralisks also shouldn't be light units. I guarantee that hydra/ling would own a reaper rush, even the old style, because on creep hydras were fast enough to keep up with and attack speed reapers. It also fixes so many other problems with the game, and makes ZvZ a hell of a lot less volatile.
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the game is young, strategies will come and go but by balancing changing we will see new ones. There is nothing to worry about when a patch comes out but lots of new cool stuff to try out and see where it leads. If blizzard didn't change the reaper pack then we would likely still be seeing 5 rax reaper rushes on zergs with bunkers and scv's rushes.... it would just be a mess that would really limit the game. Design has been done, we are now in the maintaince stage and re design is not a priority til the expansion so don't worry bout it and still keep up the innovation.
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Void Ray is an awesome, cool, and balanced unit that was made imbalanced by quite an overpowered upgrade. You either had to rework the unit entirely, or scrap the upgrade completely.
It was an excellent change, imo.
You can't compare how SC1 and SC2 were patched differently. You can, but it would be pretty pointless. It's a different game. Different game, different mechanics, different upgrades, different units. Different almost everything!
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I hear what youre saying that it sucks when upgrades are removed, but balance is most important. i know i didnt enjoy playing when every terran was reaper rushing.
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On March 06 2011 09:54 Kicks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 20:54 SlapMySalami wrote:
The reason reapers were nerfed is because reaper/ling 2s were dominating the 2s scene. It was literally impossible for comps like P/P to beat this. I do not have a source I think it was in an interview.
You don't really believe they nerfed reapers because of 2v2 do you? Morrow (before switching to zerg) popularized a brainless 5rax reaper into marine/marauder that was literally impossible for zerg to stop.
It's going to be a bit embarrassing for you now to have been so condescending.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163417
Ctrl+F "reaper".
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The thing that worries me most about Starcraft 2 in terms of balance is that it might end up like League of Legends, constantly being tweaked every which way because of flavour of the month strategies, leading to the game never really maturing strategically. A pro scene that's nothing but a storm of volatility is hard to get behind. Though maybe I'm just being too impatient.
On March 06 2011 10:51 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 09:54 Kicks wrote:On March 05 2011 20:54 SlapMySalami wrote:
The reason reapers were nerfed is because reaper/ling 2s were dominating the 2s scene. It was literally impossible for comps like P/P to beat this. I do not have a source I think it was in an interview.
You don't really believe they nerfed reapers because of 2v2 do you? Morrow (before switching to zerg) popularized a brainless 5rax reaper into marine/marauder that was literally impossible for zerg to stop. It's going to be a bit embarrassing for you now to have been so condescending. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163417Ctrl+F "reaper".
Good lord, they're really making balance decisions based off 2v2 play? Oh Blizzard 
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On March 06 2011 10:51 how2TL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 09:54 Kicks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 20:54 SlapMySalami wrote:
The reason reapers were nerfed is because reaper/ling 2s were dominating the 2s scene. It was literally impossible for comps like P/P to beat this. I do not have a source I think it was in an interview.
It's going to be a bit embarrassing for you now to have been so condescending. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163417Ctrl+F "reaper".
Awesome dude, awesome.
Now just quote this shit, because this is THE answer to all of your questions, read it each word carefully:
The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game.
The most > The best - Quantity > Quality. Period.
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I agree they have taken out quite a few upgrades for protoss, we are going to be left with no upgradeable units soon =(
If they take them out they should replace them with something IMO more upgrades make for a more diverse game 
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On March 06 2011 10:47 Tump wrote:
Void Ray is an awesome, cool, and balanced unit that was made imbalanced by quite an overpowered upgrade. You either had to rework the unit entirely, or scrap the upgrade completely.
It was an excellent change, imo.
You can't compare how SC1 and SC2 were patched differently. You can, but it would be pretty pointless. It's a different game. Different game, different mechanics, different upgrades, different units. Different almost everything!
It really wasnt that bad when they nerfed the upgrade to make it considerably slower, it just made voidrays a more effective harass unit late game. They really arent that great for harass anymore it would have been nice if they got a slight speed buff after removal just like a very small one.
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The difference is that SC1 already happened by chance to be amazingly balanced right from the start, only needing a few tweaks.
SC2 is riddled with problems, stemming from many things such as the way new units have been designed, to other game elements (unit collision size, macro mechanics, AI, etc.)
On March 06 2011 10:20 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 00:06 HorsetraineR wrote:
This game is not even a year old and you start discussing balance, wait another year or two, then start discussing wether or not blizzard needs to take a drastic turn in their game design, as of right now, the game is too fresh to even be balanced. it took 4-5 years before SC even became close to balanced, still isnt in my opinion.
give it a rest. After reading this, am i still the only one who think some Blizzard employees are paid to post on forums and troll the different SC2 communities threads? Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 00:20 Toadvine wrote:
Totally in agreement with the OP. I sort of think that the SC2 development team have sort of designed themselves into a corner, and are now merely trying to salvage whatever balanced gameplay they can. In a sense, they're treating the symptoms, rather than the illness. Anyone can look at 5RR and yell "nerf reapers!", as anyone can see how overpowered warp-in storms or speedrays can feel in any given game. Thing is, these are just symptoms of some bad core design decisions. Your post is also good, it's a good complement to OP. I'm pretty sure some "smart" changes would easily fix a lot of problems. About the warp-in mechanics for example, i've always thought that it needs a fix to "invert" the production change time for all units, example: if you choose to mute your gateways into warpgates, then units takes more time to be build instead of less (making the upgrade more logical and balanced imo) - for example 5-10 secs more. This will balance the warp mechanic and add another strategic aspect. Honestly, who has ever switch from warpgate mode to gateway mode? Never seen that, so why give this option? This show how lost Blizzard is with the core of SC2. Reaper as you said is also a good example, this is the "awesome, fun, new unit" that noone use or just one time per game, and as a stronger scv, to scout ... The critical problem with Blizzard last patches is that changes are not meant to make the game better, they're just intended to quickly get rid of problems: "Wtf reapers a little too strong in TvZ? Ok let's nerf this shit so we never hear about it anymore". Same with void speed upgrade, same with templar amulet, etc ... That's just crazy.
Also I totally agree with this entire post and Toadvine's post that was quoted.
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I think right now the focus should be on getting the game to a (nearly) perfectly balanced point. From there, Blizzard can switch their efforts to adding more variety and balancing that along the way, but if they don't have a solid point to back up to then it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to balance.
The thing that worries me most about Starcraft 2 in terms of balance is that it might end up like League of Legends, constantly being tweaked every which way because of flavour of the month strategies, leading to the game never really maturing strategically. A pro scene that's nothing but a storm of volatility is hard to get behind. Though maybe I'm just being too impatient.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, I played LoL before SC2's release and quit because I got sick and tired of having to wait for the game to get balanced, only to find out that the patch that balanced it also added a new imbalanced character.
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On March 06 2011 11:20 parn wrote:Awesome dude, awesome. Now just quote this shit, because this is THE answer to all of your questions, read it each word carefully: The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game.The most > The best - Quantity > Quality. Period.
I was implying that 2v2 was important in making the Reaper change.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say at all.
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EPT
