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wow, these are drastic changes in balance.
I think this is a patch that influences progaming a lot!
- No more viking flowers. ok, but why? Was there anything wrong with them? :/
- longer stim research time. Sounds good to me 
- no more amulet. not ok. Should have the amulet but not for instant storm. I have the feeling that just now, that people try to use storms more, they will disappear again because EMP is a lot stronger now...
- Fungal changes. idk. We'll have to wait and see but making it a missle? why?
This seems to be a really gamechanging patch....
How long did it take the last time they added it on PTR until it was implemented on the servers?
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On February 26 2011 21:32 kasumimi wrote:Blizzard on Shakuras Platue removal:Show nested quote +This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new. This is the reason Shakuras was removed for those who missed it. It clearly shows the insight the designers have for the game It is quite depressing, demoralizing and explains why the "new cool" shit maps made it through.
But...we wanted big maps with no backdoors and expansions. Why do they hate us so much?
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Some screenshots!
![[image loading]](http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8441/screenshot2011022623262.th.jpg)
New profile screen (no losses displayed)
![[image loading]](http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9632/screenshot2011022623365.th.jpg)
League ladder screen (split up into top 8, top 25, top 50, top 100)
![[image loading]](http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5198/screenshot2011022623264.th.jpg)
New custom map join page (looks much better than the current one)
![[image loading]](http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2994/screenshot2011022623283.th.jpg)
Grand Master Description
![[image loading]](http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2994/screenshot2011022623283.th.jpg)
Grand Master League
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On February 26 2011 21:43 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:40 megainferno wrote:On February 26 2011 21:08 Thezzy wrote:
Removal of warp-in storms is going to be interesting, it is very devastating and easy to pull off, instant 80 AoE damage whereever you wanted it.
are you serious? instant 80 AoE damage wherever you wanted it. You'd have to be stupid enough to stay in the storm for the entire duration. Most storms only do 20-30 damage One single storm does 20-30 damage if I move out fast, even that is half the health of most Bio. But it is never a single storm, it is a whole bunch of storms and then you'll get your 80 (if not 80+) AoE damage. Couple that with all the Gateway or Colossi hitting the army and stuff dies fast. Everytime I have to move my army out of a storm, they aren't attacking, just taking damage from the stim, the storm and the Protoss army.
Your conditions (which insist that Protoss have colossi and high templar, which is nearly all Protoss tech paths except for air) are that we would beat you if you only make marines and if we have infinite gas.
I agree with you. I'm surprised that you don't have EMP though (which comes out way before storm), not to mention anything else.
I fear that high templar will become quite useless without the ability to do anything for the first... what, 30 seconds or so, they come into play? Feedback isn't exactly worth the investment; it does far too little damage.
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On February 26 2011 21:41 cocosoft wrote:
Can anyone with SEA access access PTR? It doesn't work for me.
It's working for me, no problems.
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On February 26 2011 22:05 Highways wrote:Some screenshots!New profile screen (no losses displayed) League ladder screen (split up into top 8, top 25, top 50, top 100)
thanks for the pictures...
I hate it to be unable to see the win/loss ratio of players in my league =/
Its okay to NOT see them instantly in your profile, so that u really have to look for it, but in the ladder it should be in =/
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I hope all the changes make it to the main servers.
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For people saying HT are imba because warping them in to defend an expo is OP....so how do you expect protoss to defend 2nd, 3rd and 4th expos from drops? Build a planetary fortress?
Warping in stalkers and zealots doesn't work because they get melted by stimmed MM in the blink of an eye. Collosus are too slow to be able to walk around the map defending drops, not to mention simultaneous drops/attacks. DTs can be very effective if they don't have a scan...if they do then they get vaporized instantly. Cannons also get vaporized by stimmed MM if there are is no storm support. Without the warp in storm mechanic, protoss has no good way to react to drops in the late game.
Not to mention, the other casters in the game already has some way of doing damage before research. (infestor - fungal/infester terran, Ghost - attack/emp/snipe) HT has only feedback and archon morph. Archons are hardly viable as anything but an emergency use for HTs without energy/storm and feedback only works against units with energy. HT already needs 1 upgrade just to get their primary spell and another one to be able to use it without waiting 45 seconds. Makes no sense to take away amulet. If you are gonna take away amulet then fungal and emp should be changed to require research and also take away the ghost and infestors energy upgrades. Casters for each race should be similar right?
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On February 26 2011 22:12 Fenrisulf wrote:
For people saying HT are imba because warping them in to defend an expo is OP....so how do you expect protoss to defend 2nd, 3rd and 4th expos from drops? Build a planetary fortress?
Warping in stalkers and zealots doesn't work because they get melted by stimmed MM in the blink of an eye. Collosus are too slow to be able to walk around the map defending drops, not to mention simultaneous drops/attacks. DTs can be very effective if they don't have a scan...if they do then they get vaporized instantly. Cannons also get vaporized by stimmed MM if there are is no storm support. Without the warp in storm mechanic, protoss has no good way to react to drops in the late game.
Not to mention, the other casters in the game already has some way of doing damage before research. (infestor - fungal/infester terran, Ghost - attack/emp/snipe) HT has only feedback and archon morph. Archons are hardly viable as anything but an emergency use for HTs without energy/storm and feedback only works against units with energy. HT already needs 1 upgrade just to get their primary spell and another one to be able to use it without waiting 45 seconds. Makes no sense to take away amulet. If you are gonna take away amulet then fungal and emp should be changed to require research and also take away the ghost and infestors energy upgrades. Casters for each race should be similar right?
what you can do is warp in a templar before hand, problem solved
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Toss is dead thanks.
User was warned for this post
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I do not like those changes from the protoss side at all =(
The only things I look forward to are new maps and grand master league...
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removing the armulett for the Hight templar means they always have 50 or always have 75 energy at the beginning ?
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With the exception of the bunker nerf, I feel every balance change listed is a wrong move:
Bunker change is good. Bunkers are fantastic, they didn't need a super-short build time and it just made for too many cheesy zerg wins. And I much prefer this more elegant solution to a HP or functionality nerf.
Viking flower change is silly. Good or bad, it only affected one matchup, was not obviously imbalanced, and didn't do anything particlarly obnoxious to playstyles - and more importantly, actually blunted the ridiculous scouting free-for-all that is a terran scan-fest. Added some degree of positional scouting advantage (do I move my viks or not??).
The least relevant, and therefore most surprising change, is the Archon Toilet. How many high level games see this executed? None in tournaments, few in other games. It is hard to pull off, highly telegraphed (MS and Archons ?!? ), situational, and easily countered.
Also, philosophically, why remove things that appear so rarely at any level of play that blizzard cannot possibly know if they're imbalanced? Moreover, why something that is incredibly cool and fun? Really silly change, but whatever. I'm not likely to play protoss anytime soon.
Zerg changes are all terrible, terrible, stupid.
Fungal was NOT a problem at 8 seconds. At 4 second stun, I'd prefer they remove it entirely and bring back Plague. This weird mixed bag is silly, and makes our midgame options even more narrow. Phoenix play can't be stopped with infestors anymore, period. Push delays vs terran on cramped spawns is no longer an option.
Projectile change is a plain nerf, for something which is simply not overpowered. Stimmed forces do NOT need the ability to avoid fungal and sprint down the infestor that cast it.
Bonus damage to armored is...not helpful in the slightest - armored units generally don't clump, and are larger than light units anyway, so the effect is minimized. Put simply, no way I am going to invest in infestors (which cost nearly 500 gas just to get started on) for a crap version of psi storm.
HP increase is ok I guess, but becomes quite a joke in the light of the stun change.
Overall the infestor changes show some of the poorest understanding of balance I have seen outside of the Bronze / Silver league. They're just wrong on this one, just plain wrong. Nothing else to say really.
On the changes I have less certainty on, here's my 2c:
HT nerf is ridiculous. This change may well be really needed in the long term, but this was simply too early to tell, and Blizzard are simply lying if they say this massive a a change was clear-cut at this stage of strategic evolution. Maybe a watered down version of this nerf could be justified if Blizz feels their crystal balls are working in order as well as they were for the reaper changes.
Stim change is silly. Quick stim was strong and very much 'not the problem' in any matchup. Way to take out the only upgrade time that doesn't take 12 years to research....still debatable I spose,b it honestly still clearly too-early-to-tell on this one. As a zerg player it just makes mineral-only openings even more attractive for my terran opponents, making an already stale matchup more boring.
The non-balance changes are all great from what I can see, but I couldn't care less, as I don't play SC2 to hang out in the menus.
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they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right?
i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really..
all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
edit: i think they fixed the vortex because of some overpowered 2on2 strategies (vortex + nuke)
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Oh blizz...*shakes head*
I really wish there was a highlight option here to read the opinions that do matter. Too much white noise here.
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If the removal of Amulet does go through, P will eventually learn to cope by building HT's before hand. I'm just incredibly disappointed that they added some random Blizzard made maps, instead of the GSL maps.
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It's amazing how tosses say we should go mech (= higher tier). Did you guys try mech on Slag pits for example? 50 routes to your base. These bigger maps make mech 0% viable, believe me. Poor goody .. I'm just so sick of this boring MMM + viking + ghosts. It's really the only viable thing... Do you hear terrans QQ? Do you think that terrans actually are all so stupid that they can only MMM?
1) stim 30 sconds slower
2) bunkers slower
= even better for 2base timingpushes . Do people realise that protoss gateway with enough forcefields >> Terran rax? Probably not.
Amulet remove? Good, but that change will be undone soon, because of the mass QQ. So basicly we will emp HT's in the future, then run out of energy. No problemo, lets warp in 5 HT's and destroy your army. Zealots are damn good with speedleg and combined with HT's they are too good. There is a reason that jinro doesn't want to play tosses in gsl.
TvP before this patch: 40-60%
TvP after this patch (also thx to the bigger maps): 30-70%
Mark my words;)
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i dont like how they don't show losses
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It would be much better if they made the amulet upgrade 62 starting energy.
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[B]...........Not to mention, the other casters in the game already has some way of doing damage before research. (infestor - fungal/infester terran, Ghost - attack/emp/snipe) HT has only feedback and archon morph. Archons are hardly viable as anything but an emergency use for HTs without energy/storm and feedback only works against units with energy. HT already needs 1 upgrade just to get their primary spell and another one to be able to use it without waiting 45 seconds. Makes no sense to take away amulet. If you are gonna take away amulet then fungal and emp should be changed to require research and also take away the ghost and infestors energy upgrades. Casters for each race should be similar right?
What you dont seem to realize is they are trying to balance a game not individual units based on there racial counterpart. When you start comparing a Ghost, Infester, and HT to each other then you already dont understand the meaning of balance. Its seems all the Protoss are crying over something that isnt set in stone and hasn't been fully tested.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8441/screenshot2011022623262.jpg)
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