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On February 26 2011 13:00 101toss wrote:
P players,
Look at the patch as a whole. While the HT nerf certainly is sad, the terran nerfs make 4gate sooooooooooo much more powerful. There is a larger timing window before stim finishes, and bunkers take a longer to go up. Adapt, don't complain.
Great. So more powerful 4gates, more often. I can't fucking wait.
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On February 26 2011 13:00 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:56 Uhnno wrote:On February 26 2011 12:51 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:47 Shooks wrote:On February 26 2011 12:45 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:39 TheDemigod wrote:On February 26 2011 12:35 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:32 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:29 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:
[quote]
Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. Marines counter mutalisks? I fail to see the point. I start to think you're trolling... Marines can hit air. A Ghost renders a HT useless with a single ranged AoE spell. A HT kills an entire bio army with a single ranged AoE spell. That's why its 200/200. Ghosts also cost 100 min extra Maybe you should stop building bio armies against T3 units designed to destroy them? That's not what blizzard likes. That's probably why they nerfed the tank from 50 to 35 damage against marines, to prevent siege from absolutely denying bio. Actually every Terran player should transition into Mech in the lategame vs Protoss, and a lot of Terran have been doing it, you probably just don't know how to play. I don't play terran, that's probably why. Mech play also DIES to immortals (absent ghosts), carriers/voids. Mech is also pretty bad against colossi. Mech obliterates MANY toss compositions so hard it's not funny. I still have no idea how to counter a well mixed Thor/Hellion/Tanks/Viking+ mineraldump at marine mix except to not let them get there. 2 robo mass immortals to critical mass. And use your warp prism and proxy pylon to harass Terran, his army should be quite immobile.
mix 3 ghosts into the army and all your immotrals and chargelots will get 1 shotted by the tankball. while 3 templar on the other hand wouldnt do that much to a mech ball.
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Do people realize that HT's have another ability that they warp in with and can one shot medivacs? In that case HT's can still stop drop, but you have to have enough awareness to warp them in before the drop lands. Besides (this may not be true) it seems to me that one of the most dangerous aspects of a terran drop is that in small numbers with medivac support bio units become much more powerful.
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On February 26 2011 13:00 101toss wrote:
P players,
Look at the patch as a whole. While the HT nerf certainly is sad, the terran nerfs make 4gate sooooooooooo much more powerful. There is a larger timing window before stim finishes, and bunkers take a longer to go up. Adapt, don't complain.
Your solution is 4 gating? LOL, are you actually telling Protoss players to 4 gate? Since when did you need Stim to hold off a 4 gate in the first place? Yes adapting, guess how Protoss players are gonna adapt? They're gonna get collosi, fun.
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On February 26 2011 13:03 Lucius22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:00 canikizu wrote:On February 26 2011 12:56 Uhnno wrote:On February 26 2011 12:51 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:47 Shooks wrote:On February 26 2011 12:45 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:39 TheDemigod wrote:On February 26 2011 12:35 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:32 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:29 101toss wrote:
[quote]
Marines counter mutalisks? I fail to see the point. I start to think you're trolling... Marines can hit air. A Ghost renders a HT useless with a single ranged AoE spell. A HT kills an entire bio army with a single ranged AoE spell. That's why its 200/200. Ghosts also cost 100 min extra Maybe you should stop building bio armies against T3 units designed to destroy them? That's not what blizzard likes. That's probably why they nerfed the tank from 50 to 35 damage against marines, to prevent siege from absolutely denying bio. Actually every Terran player should transition into Mech in the lategame vs Protoss, and a lot of Terran have been doing it, you probably just don't know how to play. I don't play terran, that's probably why. Mech play also DIES to immortals (absent ghosts), carriers/voids. Mech is also pretty bad against colossi. Mech obliterates MANY toss compositions so hard it's not funny. I still have no idea how to counter a well mixed Thor/Hellion/Tanks/Viking+ mineraldump at marine mix except to not let them get there. 2 robo mass immortals to critical mass. And use your warp prism and proxy pylon to harass Terran, his army should be quite immobile. mix 3 ghosts into the army and all your immotrals and chargelots will get 1 shotted by the tankball. while 3 templar on the other hand wouldnt do that much to a mech ball.
You ignored his key element of advice: drops/abuse mobility. Mech is the slowest shit ever. Your mineral line will get raped and you can do nothing about it.
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Has it been confirmed whether this patch will mark the start of a new season?
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On February 26 2011 12:59 Lucius22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:55 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:49 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:35 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:32 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:29 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:24 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:20 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:15 Ratel wrote:
first they made voidrays useless without flux veins and now hts
looks like blizzards wants to to have only 1 toss build for all matchups.. coming soon: removal of thermal lance Given blizz's track record, I'm expecting this to happen EMP was designed to COUNTER storm/fungal/other spellcasters. The crying here is like saying "omg wtf why my roaches die to immortals?" EMP hard counters storm. Deal with it by attempting to minimize it's effect, not by crying for a research nerf Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. Marines counter mutalisks? I fail to see the point. I start to think you're trolling... Marines can hit air. A Ghost renders a HT useless with a single ranged AoE spell. A HT kills an entire bio army with a single ranged AoE spell. That's why its 200/200. Ghosts also cost 100 min extra so paying extra 100 mins for a unit that: - can shoot and deals good dmg to light - is fast - 20hp more - is not light (why the fuck is that actually in the game, why is a ghost not light) - can cloak - 1 emp can win a game, 1 storm cant To refute your points, HT can: -morph into archons ("free" units) -warp in anywhere at anytime -100 minerals cheaper -Dunno about the light aspect (blizzard has their heads in their asses about this, just like how the baneling isn't light either) -cloak require research -1 storm can win you the game, also you deserve to lose if 1 emp drains all of your HT -snipe kills a templar ALWAYS in 2 shots (50 energy), feedback often does not kill the ghost -it needs wtf apm and aim to hit like 5 ghosts with feedback while emp you just roughly can aim 10m away from the ht -archons are actually 100% useless -free emp -energy upgrade cheaper and less build time -ghost academy way cheaper and builds faster so sup?
Maybe its just me, but i find it kinda hard to emp templars, especially in vicinity of a xel'naga tower or they have an obs to see it coming. The thing is, if you click feedback on a ghost, your templar will move into range and feedback.
A ghost on the other hand you need to watch the outline that shows your range, and get the emp off right before the templar is in range.
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On February 26 2011 13:04 Rajay wrote:
Do people realize that HT's have another ability that they warp in with and can one shot medivacs? In that case HT's can still stop drop, but you have to have enough awareness to warp them in before the drop lands. Besides (this may not be true) it seems to me that one of the most dangerous aspects of a terran drop is that in small numbers with medivac support bio units become much more powerful.
Phoenixes are really good at stopping drops as well. I think we'll see more phoenix play if HTs become used less. A small fleet of Phoenixes can deny drops very effectively with the help of chargelots.
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On February 26 2011 12:35 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:32 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:29 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:28 FliedLice wrote:On February 26 2011 12:24 101toss wrote:On February 26 2011 12:20 Lucius22 wrote:On February 26 2011 12:15 Ratel wrote:
first they made voidrays useless without flux veins and now hts
looks like blizzards wants to to have only 1 toss build for all matchups.. coming soon: removal of thermal lance Given blizz's track record, I'm expecting this to happen EMP was designed to COUNTER storm/fungal/other spellcasters. The crying here is like saying "omg wtf why my roaches die to immortals?" EMP hard counters storm. Deal with it by attempting to minimize it's effect, not by crying for a research nerf Awesome, a counter that's available before the actual unit it counters. Marines counter mutalisks? I fail to see the point. I start to think you're trolling... Marines can hit air. A Ghost renders a HT useless with a single ranged AoE spell. A HT kills an entire bio army with a single ranged AoE spell. That's why its 200/200. Ghosts also cost 100 min extra
Uh what?
A single storm doesn't do much to even a bio army. ANY competent Terrran player will micro away from it and take 15-30 damage max, which would be eventually healed from Medivacs later. The problem was storm is you can spam it, meaning it would be hard for the bio army to get away from the damage.
Yes, I think storm was too much and yes, I agree with this removal even as a Protoss player myself.
However, if you're gonna say an EMP just makes a HT useless, you're so far mistaken.
Mid and late game EMPs are just so ridiculously strong. If a Protoss player gets caught off guard, they can throw a few EMPs off his whole army, and roll it over.
EMP can't kill units like storm can, but it instantly does an insane amount of damage and removes all immortal/sentries shields, something that is incredibly important mid/late game.
MMM already rolls over pure gateway units and without FF, it wouldn't even be close.
So stop acting like EMP does nothing. If it's just a single cast, EMP > Storm by far.
Anyway, on topic, I'm actually surprised they did nothing for the Colossus or Corrupter. Feels like they preplanned this patch like a month or two ago lol.
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I'd actually promote the warpgate upgrade removal in exchange for stronger gateway units and maybe stronger tanks/Colossus nerf.
The problem with the HTs that Blizzard seems to see is their ability to "immediately" warp in anywhere on the map next to a pylon and instantly deal insane amounts of damage. Hence they removed the amulet because it is one key component of this strength. I on the other hand would say the removal of warpgate technology has the same effect and, combined with a buff to gateway units, make 4gate less interesting (due to lack of instant reinforcement), thus giving protoss the possibility to have a safer, more variable early-mid game. This would at least somewhat help the matchup PvT, not sure about PvZ tho.
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United States3 Posts
i really wish blizzard would try to take a different approach to balancing gameplay.
instead of always looking for things to nerf, try more to look for gameplay aspects to buff instead.
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On February 26 2011 13:03 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:00 101toss wrote:
P players,
Look at the patch as a whole. While the HT nerf certainly is sad, the terran nerfs make 4gate sooooooooooo much more powerful. There is a larger timing window before stim finishes, and bunkers take a longer to go up. Adapt, don't complain. Great. So more powerful 4gates, more often. I can't fucking wait.
Should probably make a fast expand as terran harder to do... Bunkers on top of a ramp is much harder to stop than at your natural... So protoss stronger early game, protoss should get their expo up sooner. And weaker lategame... Bam, balanced.
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On February 26 2011 13:04 Rajay wrote:
Do people realize that HT's have another ability that they warp in with and can one shot medivacs? In that case HT's can still stop drop, but you have to have enough awareness to warp them in before the drop lands. Besides (this may not be true) it seems to me that one of the most dangerous aspects of a terran drop is that in small numbers with medivac support bio units become much more powerful.
so what happens if the medivac has only 100 energy?
losing double the resouces defending the drop with only stalkers and zealots?
what happens if they come with 3 or more medivacs? if your main army isnt nearby -> gz you just lost all your production buildings or/and nexus
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Interesting pacth notes, kinda sad to see the mothership finaly die like this, but as for the HT i can understand why they removed that upgrade kinda made late game insta win if you watch the mini map
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I really don't understand why Air unit flower had to be fixed..... um... any ideas?
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On February 26 2011 13:07 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:03 Rokk wrote:On February 26 2011 13:00 101toss wrote:
P players,
Look at the patch as a whole. While the HT nerf certainly is sad, the terran nerfs make 4gate sooooooooooo much more powerful. There is a larger timing window before stim finishes, and bunkers take a longer to go up. Adapt, don't complain. Great. So more powerful 4gates, more often. I can't fucking wait. Should probably make a fast expand as terran harder to do... Bunkers on top of a ramp is much harder to stop than at your natural... So protoss stronger early game, protoss should get their expo up sooner. And weaker lategame... Bam, balanced.
Genius.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 26 2011 13:00 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:39 Kratisto wrote:High Templar
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. I quit. Oh right, constructive discussion. What was wrong with Templar before? Protoss, Terran, and Zerg all had good responses to Templar tech (EMP and high health units, roach regen). I guess we'll be seeing even more Colossus-centric Protoss strategy, if that's even possible. Most people disagree with you. Templars broke TvP lategame into oblivion.
Most of the people that disagree in bronze, just saying, and the ones that aren't, are still not experimenting with mech play, I don't even know why the whole TvP lategame is OP for protoss is still being brought up, ever since we saw IMMvp vs Squirtle we saw the transition into mech is strong, IMMvp just played it wrong.
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United States7483 Posts
Most people here are missing the point:
It doesn't matter if high templar are balanced now or not. The fact is, they are rarely used in comparison the alternative (the colossus) which is used way too often. If you nerf High Templar, especially in this particular way, you'll never see HT's used again.
And I HATE colossus.
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Wow huge nerf to Protoss.
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EPT
