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On February 28 2011 14:39 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 14:19 TyrantPotato wrote:On February 28 2011 14:15 dark fury wrote:
Im surprised that noone has adressed how the templar change has the potential to turn PvZ into a huge muta/ling fest, wich is basicly a bold step backwards in terms of meta-game. storm wasnt the main deterent to muta ling the surge of strong 6 gate timings completely anihalate muta ling builds, and are still strong against roach hydra so its used quite often. also stargate openings tend to steer the game towards a reaction of hydras into collosus (blizzards ultimate plan of war of the worlds domination) however it still remains a fact that HT's are not going to be used in ANY matchup anymore. essentially blizzard has removed high templars except they forgot to remove the button to build them. Hehe i can see next patch already *Fixed bug where you could still build HTs *Random change to bunker
*Fixed bug where stimpack duration was accidentally extended.
*Fixed bug where concussive shells accidentally cost gas.
*Fixed bug where marauders accidentally cost two supply.
Just kidding.
As a Protoss player, I'm curious as to how the amulet nerf will affect all the talk about the overuse of colossus though. Everyone complains that Protoss absolutely need colossus to win games (once you hit the mid-game). Isn't this more true now that the high templar tech route is even less appealing? Perhaps Blizzard doesn't think it's a problem that we Protoss users use colossi so often, or was just focusing more on nerfing our late game.
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
BW toss had corsairs which absolutely wrecked mutas in large numbers.
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On February 28 2011 15:17 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +
And without storm, protoss literally can't deal with large groups of mutalisks. Blink stalkers only do okay while the mutalisks are in small-medium numbers, but only at defending small, critical locations. They just do shit for damage against mutas.
Chill out n00b. They did NOT remove the storm spell. They only removed an upgrade so now you have to preemptively make HTs, how unfair is that i guess huh? Just like the old times in BW.
mutas accelerate much faster in starcraft 2. If i warp in a HT at my nexus to prevent mutas from harrassing my probeline, you can just sweep in and oneshot him with you mutalisks before he gets the mana to cast storm. now thats a 150 gas wasted on nothing. If anything, amulet is entierly crucial to prevent muta harrass, much more so than when preventing terran drops.
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There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for.
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On February 28 2011 15:00 dark fury wrote:
So you are suggesting mass stalker against roach/muta? im assuming you either dont play protoss very often or just dont play much at all. Blink stalker is not a cost effective answer to mass muta, you get blink stalkers to help defend your cannoned probe lines while you tech up to templars but you can never actually kill a critical amount of mutas without storm. Phoenix are not viable against mass mutas either. Ask yourself, if phoenix is such a godly hard-counter to muta play, then why does noone ever use them against mass mutalisks? because they are not effective, mutas perform way too good in high numbers and its impossible to keep up with zergs production rate. Also, with mass phoenix you will simply lose if zerg dishes out a lot of larvae on ground units. Its not viable, period.
stalker/sentry/colossus> roach/muta.
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mutas accelerate much faster in starcraft 2. If i warp in a HT at my nexus to prevent mutas from harrassing my probeline, you can just sweep in and oneshot him with you mutalisks before he gets the mana to cast storm. now thats a 150 gas wasted on nothing. If anything, amulet is entierly crucial to prevent muta harrass, much more so than when preventing terran drops.
LOL some people just have funny logic. Like you said if mutas can snipe warp-in HTs, what difference does Amulet make if HTs are dead before they can even be successfully warpped in? The correct way to counter mass muta is to preemptively leave 1 or 2 HTs at your mineral line. NOT to warp-in 10 HTs under muta fire and let 8 of them die and the 2 survivors to cast insta storm. L2P lower level playerss.
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On February 28 2011 15:39 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +
mutas accelerate much faster in starcraft 2. If i warp in a HT at my nexus to prevent mutas from harrassing my probeline, you can just sweep in and oneshot him with you mutalisks before he gets the mana to cast storm. now thats a 150 gas wasted on nothing. If anything, amulet is entierly crucial to prevent muta harrass, much more so than when preventing terran drops.
LOL some people just have funny logic. Like you said if mutas can snipe warp-in HTs, what difference does Amulet make if HTs are dead before they can even be successfully warpped in? The correct way to counter mass muta is to preemptively leave 1 or 2 HTs at your mineral line. NOT to warp-in 10 HTs under muta fire and let 8 of them die and the 2 survivors to cast insta storm. L2P lower level playerss.
I never said mutas necceserly snipe templars as they warp in, but if you leave your templar in your base for 45 seconds to regegenerate mana, there is a BIG chance that the mutas are going to kill it before it gets to do damage. Is that really that hard to comprehend?
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I don't have the stamina to read 130 pages of the thread so forgive me, but could someone who played on PTR can explain me how those larva alerts works ?
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Its obvious that having a unit that can warp in and insta kill a drop is idiotic, but the problem here is the design of the Collo. Its splash is so powerful, that most Protoss will now center their armies around it even more. HT where atleast a unit you needed some micro to use effectively.
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On February 28 2011 15:45 MaverickPL wrote:
I don't have the stamina to read 130 pages of the thread so forgive me, but could someone who played on PTR can explain me how those larva alerts works ?
It's a notification like the ones that show up in the top left like unit or building complete.
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Kinda funny that they implemented that, i think most players with more than 1000+ games played have developed a "gut feeling" for when to reapply those things. I have noticed this myself that i always move back to my base by time time chrono boost expires, its like i have a timer in my head.
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Wow, just got back from a vacation with no Starcraft, and came back to this.....
Some pretty huge changes in there. The biggest one is definitely the removal of Khaydarin Amulet, but I'm not sure I support the removal altogether. As a Z player, I don't really like the fact that all I'll be facing on the ladder for a few weeks here is Voidray/Colossus. At least HT tech was somewhat intense to play with and play against, trying to pull off proper splits/flanks/baneling drops/neural parasites..... Playing against VR/Colossus is like having my face repeatedly smashed into a concrete wall while listening to the voice of Tasteless saying that "for all you newbies out there, just stay on two bases, mass up, and attack."
Used to play Terran in the beta before I switched back to the swarm, not sure how this is going to affect lategame PvT.... Will be much more difficult for Protoss, and much more Colossus focused. Hurray...... /disgust
Not sure the changes to FG are warranted. Infestors just were starting to see some use in ZvT, and I'm betting that they will definitely go down the toilet. Does it specify the speed of the FG projectile and whether it is dodge-able?
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Is anybody else having weird promotion and demotion issues? It may not be a problem but it does not seem right. I had previous plat rank then they wipe it I play 1 placement, get into plat again. Then I play 3 matches going 2-1, I get into Masters. Then I play few more games lose to a plat and 2 grand masters and beat a few masters, then get demoted to diamond, loose to 1 more grand master down to plat. Isn't it weird I was demoted for losing to a player in a higher league? Also it was saying I was Favored against grand masters while being in masters. Anybody know whats going on or notice same thing?
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Personally I think reversing KA to the BW version instead of completely sacking it would be a better solution. Insta storm anyway on the map is just wrong.
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All the BW caster energy upgrades also increased the starting energy of the caster to 62.5, because casters in BW spawned with 1/4 of their maximum energy. The increased spawn amount was almost solely relevant for High Templar and Arbiters.
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It'd be nice of blizzard to give some comments on each of the changes, whether they are set in stone, or still being tweaked (otherwise why have a PTR), it would be silly to go through all this and the more unpopular changes not occur at all.
+ Show Spoiler [for courtesy, spoilerd] +On February 28 2011 16:22 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for. No, KA equivalent in BW (forgot the name) was an upgrade to boost HT's mana pool from 200 to 250, making a full energy HT able to cast 3 storms instead of 2. Personally I believe giving HTs a bit more starting energy (like 60~65, with no upgrades required) is much better than completely sacking the KA upgrade. Since a unit gets 1/4 of its total energy upon spawning in (true in BW, true now), the KA upgrade (same name in BW, btw) essentially did increase HT starting energy to 62, in addition to increasing the cap to 250. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/High_Templar for more specifics
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On February 26 2011 20:54 SelectStaR wrote:
Cant F'IN believe Khaydarin Amule is gone!!!!!!
Protoss dont win NOTHING!!!!!! and they keeeeeeeep nurfin us!!!
WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
We have known since blizz con that blizzard was considering nerfing storm in the late game and stim in early game. I don't know if I were protoss I think this change would be preferable to something like a damage or AOE nerf.
On February 26 2011 21:07 sceroh wrote:
so you could put your own army in the vortex in order to get them invincible for 1.5 sec ? XD
Hopefully they can't attack either I can see toss doing so many cheap things with the mothership.
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@Ichabod, obviously the KA nerf won't go through just look at the amount of QQ here. Btw the zerg QQers effort evidently stopped the fungal air nerf last patch. But again I honstly think BW KA is a much more balanced upgrade.
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On February 28 2011 16:02 Boundless wrote:
Wow, just got back from a vacation with no Starcraft, and came back to this.....
Some pretty huge changes in there. The biggest one is definitely the removal of Khaydarin Amulet, but I'm not sure I support the removal altogether. As a Z player, I don't really like the fact that all I'll be facing on the ladder for a few weeks here is Voidray/Colossus. At least HT tech was somewhat intense to play with and play against, trying to pull off proper splits/flanks/baneling drops/neural parasites..... Playing against VR/Colossus is like having my face repeatedly smashed into a concrete wall while listening to the voice of Tasteless saying that "for all you newbies out there, just stay on two bases, mass up, and attack."
Used to play Terran in the beta before I switched back to the swarm, not sure how this is going to affect lategame PvT.... Will be much more difficult for Protoss, and much more Colossus focused. Hurray...... /disgust
Not sure the changes to FG are warranted. Infestors just were starting to see some use in ZvT, and I'm betting that they will definitely go down the toilet. Does it specify the speed of the FG projectile and whether it is dodge-able?
it did get some sort of nerf yeah.. the stun lasts for a shorter duration, so you cant stop a force in its tracks just as long as before. but if we look at the use from the gsl. fungal units for ultras to catch up and start doing damage. those 4 seconds kinda let everything catch up and lings to surround somewhat, and in many cases the fights didnt last all that long unless the terran was winning and simply not retreating anymore 
the other use might have been given a boost. this is where you target a bunch of marine/marauder and watch em die.. sure sure now they dont stay put as much.. but before you needed 2 fungals to kill marines.. you stil need that, but unless they also nerfed the damage (doesnt realy say in the patch notes) it will now deal 36 dmg over 4 secs instead of 8. making infestors better at killing large numbers of marines than before.
would be great if someone on ptr could check that part out
fungal dps on ptr vs old fungal dps.. 
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On February 28 2011 14:46 KaiserCommander wrote:
mmm I'm agree with the HT nerf 'cause seeing many PRO games (PvZ,PvT) I noticed that no matter what if the toss player reach the HT technology the literally blast the enemy. Yes the PS is avoidable but think if 6 instant PS are aviodable at all... Despite that I really don't understand the Mothership changes...
As Zerg vs a mothership, to see your food from 200/200 go to 110/200 in 1 second says enough i think.....
I do like some of the changes, But i wonder if the effect of these changes do add something to the game. Storm nerf is to hard imo. Amulet should give templars like 63 energy instead of 75 or something.
But were are the zerg buffs? i seen some vids bou the new infestor fungle, wtf is that? looks like a freaking baseball coverd in slime. easely avoided. Mayby the should buf the foodcap for zerg to 220. Since zerg need more drones and Queens to macro (mayby they dont need them but they always got them  ). Zerg almost always has a smaller army when it is 200 vs 200 army. Cause zerg got 80 suply workers, and 5/6 queens does eat into your army count.
Also i stil find it strange to see blizzard make such less use of BW and the ballance in that game.
Oh well, Still gonna enjoy the game nontheless.
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EPT
