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On February 28 2011 13:27 Ighox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 13:19 BetaFoil wrote:
Well after reading all of this qq over the amulet nerf I just wonder if anyone has stopped to consider that they are testing the viability of templars without it so they can make changes to tvp late game effectivly. Testing the degree of templar use post amulet would be great data to have. So stop all the qq and go play with templars on the ptr. Then comment on their viability. They were too strong before and it is possible they are too weak now but how weak is what blizzard is trying to find out. So if people aren't supposed to QQ and are just supposed to "stop all the qq and go play on ptr", how will Blizzard find out that the change is terrible? By the complete silence?
I'm not entirely sure that Blizzard even watches these forums. Wouldn't it be better to QQ all over THEIR forums. Isn't that where you're SUPPOSED to discuss their PTR changes?
Not really trying to make an argument, but if it were me making a patch, I'd pay more attention to the people posting their opinions on my own forums, rather than here.
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On February 28 2011 14:23 teh_longinator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 13:27 Ighox wrote:On February 28 2011 13:19 BetaFoil wrote:
Well after reading all of this qq over the amulet nerf I just wonder if anyone has stopped to consider that they are testing the viability of templars without it so they can make changes to tvp late game effectivly. Testing the degree of templar use post amulet would be great data to have. So stop all the qq and go play with templars on the ptr. Then comment on their viability. They were too strong before and it is possible they are too weak now but how weak is what blizzard is trying to find out. So if people aren't supposed to QQ and are just supposed to "stop all the qq and go play on ptr", how will Blizzard find out that the change is terrible? By the complete silence? I'm not entirely sure that Blizzard even watches these forums. Wouldn't it be better to QQ all over THEIR forums. Isn't that where you're SUPPOSED to discuss their PTR changes? Not really trying to make an argument, but if it were me making a patch, I'd pay more attention to the people posting their opinions on my own forums, rather than here.
I'm pretty sure even Blizzard can figure out that they should never pay attention to the opinions on their own forums.
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On February 28 2011 14:19 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 14:15 dark fury wrote:
Im surprised that noone has adressed how the templar change has the potential to turn PvZ into a huge muta/ling fest, wich is basicly a bold step backwards in terms of meta-game. storm wasnt the main deterent to muta ling the surge of strong 6 gate timings completely anihalate muta ling builds, and are still strong against roach hydra so its used quite often.
it can be, there are viable mid-game transitions into mutalisk after you get a bulk force of roaches that work very well on larger maps. watch sanZenith vs Nestea on shakuras plateu, nestea transitioned into mutas after he barely hold of sans 6gate time push with roaches. sanZenith was able to keep himself in the game thanks to beatiful storm play and DT harrasment, but if the game would have been played out on the PTR im pretty sure it would have ended right there when nestea had 24 mutalisks.
Without the amulet, Templars are virtually worthless at defending against mutalisks because mutas can sweep in and snipe the high templars before they get enough mana to cast a storm.
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On February 28 2011 14:19 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 14:15 dark fury wrote:
Im surprised that noone has adressed how the templar change has the potential to turn PvZ into a huge muta/ling fest, wich is basicly a bold step backwards in terms of meta-game. storm wasnt the main deterent to muta ling the surge of strong 6 gate timings completely anihalate muta ling builds, and are still strong against roach hydra so its used quite often. also stargate openings tend to steer the game towards a reaction of hydras into collosus (blizzards ultimate plan of war of the worlds domination) however it still remains a fact that HT's are not going to be used in ANY matchup anymore. essentially blizzard has removed high templars except they forgot to remove the button to build them. Hehe i can see next patch already
*Fixed bug where you could still build HTs
*Random change to bunker
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On February 28 2011 14:26 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 14:19 TyrantPotato wrote:On February 28 2011 14:15 dark fury wrote:
Im surprised that noone has adressed how the templar change has the potential to turn PvZ into a huge muta/ling fest, wich is basicly a bold step backwards in terms of meta-game. storm wasnt the main deterent to muta ling the surge of strong 6 gate timings completely anihalate muta ling builds, and are still strong against roach hydra so its used quite often. it can be, there are viable mid-game transitions into mutalisk after you get a bulk force of roaches that work very well on larger maps. watch sanZenith vs Nestea on shakuras plateu, nestea transitioned into mutas after he barely hold of sans 6gate time push with roaches. sanZenith was able to keep himself in the game thanks to beatiful storm play and DT harrasment, but if the game would have been played out on the PTR im pretty sure it would have ended right there when nestea had 24 mutalisks. Without the amulet, Templars are virtually worthless at defending against mutalisks because mutas can sweep in and snipe the high templars before they get enough mana to cast a storm.
Damn agree, mutalings are impossible to stop with just gateway units, when mutalisks reach the "big" amount, phoenixes can't even kill them anymore, storm are the only way to counter
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mmm I'm agree with the HT nerf 'cause seeing many PRO games (PvZ,PvT) I noticed that no matter what if the toss player reach the HT technology the literally blast the enemy. Yes the PS is avoidable but think if 6 instant PS are aviodable at all... Despite that I really don't understand the Mothership changes...
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I thought this was a thread about patch 1.3?
OP please rename this thread to "The Official Khaydarin Amulet Removal QQ Thread"
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No sorry, muta/ling still will most likely not be good vs P because of as someone mentioned the 6 gate push that would outright kill it, and the fact that phoenixes just destroy mutas.
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On February 28 2011 14:51 hunts wrote:
No sorry, muta/ling still will most likely not be good vs P because of as someone mentioned the 6 gate push that would outright kill it, and the fact that phoenixes just destroy mutas.
Yeah, because rushing to muta/ling out of 2 bases is the only possible option to get mutalisks, right? there are many viable and SAFE transitions into mutas, nestea likes to go for a solid roach force first and then tech to mutas once he is up on 3 bases. with 3 sarturated bases you can almost instantly dish out a critical amount of mutas where phoenix simply wont do and you NEED templars. So sorry, but you are wrong.
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On February 28 2011 14:54 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 14:51 hunts wrote:
No sorry, muta/ling still will most likely not be good vs P because of as someone mentioned the 6 gate push that would outright kill it, and the fact that phoenixes just destroy mutas. Yeah, because rushing to muta/ling out of 2 bases is the only possible option to get mutalisks, right? there are many viable and SAFE transitions into mutas, with 3 sarturated bases you can almost instantly dish out a critical amount of mutas where phoenix simply wont do and you NEED templars.
There is a unit called stalker. They can blink and are 100 times more mobile than HTs. Plus they don't need energy to shoot.
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and to do that still takes pooling a lot of resources/larva when the P can just pus hyou and most likely win or cripple you. if the P has a stargate or 2 he can also just chrono some phoenix and stil lbe fine, otherwise make a few stargates and make some canons to keep the mutas from doing too much damage. I just really don't think mutas will be viable vs P even with this change.
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So you are suggesting mass stalker against roach/muta? im assuming you either dont play protoss very often or just dont play much at all. Blink stalker is not a cost effective answer to mass muta, you get blink stalkers to help defend your cannoned probe lines while you tech up to templars but you can never actually kill a critical amount of mutas without storm. Phoenix are not viable against mass mutas either. Ask yourself, if phoenix is such a godly hard-counter to muta play, then why does noone ever use them against mass mutalisks? because they are not effective, mutas perform way too good in high numbers and its impossible to keep up with zergs production rate. Also, with mass phoenix you will simply lose if zerg dishes out a lot of larvae on ground units. Its not viable, period.
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Fungal change allows medivac heals to be countered hard due to the increased dps.
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People should really play more on the PTR and speculate less here... its pointless! people ALWAYS freakin complain seconds after anything might possibly change...
these changes ARE most likely coming.. so deal with it!! go play on the ptr so you are prepared and actually know what you are whining about..
And if things are really that bad.. the only way to show blizz is to play on the PTR!! as thats where there statistics are coming from... not a qq thread here.
It's getting late here at work but geeze... why do people always think everything has to be the way it was no matter what change happens?? whats the point in change then?!?! the amulet and the infestor changes will drastically change the way both units are used.. but so what!? the game is developing so flow with it and learn the changes instead of this %$%#^....
so pointless to read balance threads these days...
that's all for now 
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United States7483 Posts
On February 28 2011 14:26 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 14:19 TyrantPotato wrote:On February 28 2011 14:15 dark fury wrote:
Im surprised that noone has adressed how the templar change has the potential to turn PvZ into a huge muta/ling fest, wich is basicly a bold step backwards in terms of meta-game. storm wasnt the main deterent to muta ling the surge of strong 6 gate timings completely anihalate muta ling builds, and are still strong against roach hydra so its used quite often. it can be, there are viable mid-game transitions into mutalisk after you get a bulk force of roaches that work very well on larger maps. watch sanZenith vs Nestea on shakuras plateu, nestea transitioned into mutas after he barely hold of sans 6gate time push with roaches. sanZenith was able to keep himself in the game thanks to beatiful storm play and DT harrasment, but if the game would have been played out on the PTR im pretty sure it would have ended right there when nestea had 24 mutalisks. Without the amulet, Templars are virtually worthless at defending against mutalisks because mutas can sweep in and snipe the high templars before they get enough mana to cast a storm.
And without storm, protoss literally can't deal with large groups of mutalisks. Blink stalkers only do okay while the mutalisks are in small-medium numbers, but only at defending small, critical locations. They just do shit for damage against mutas.
Mutas can also easily run from archons, and it takes a long time to get enough phoenix out to deal with a large muta ball: wheras a zerg can very easily do a massive switch to mutas (being able to save larva for a minute then pumping entire balls of a single new unit is awesome). In the meantime, zerg can harass, and straight up kill lots of important things, and even take out the phoenix as they are building if the protoss's control is slightly less than absolutely perfect with them.
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On February 28 2011 15:00 dark fury wrote:
So you are suggesting mass stalker against roach/muta? im assuming you either dont play protoss very often or just dont play much at all. Blink stalker is not a cost effective answer to mass muta, you get blink stalkers to help defend your cannoned probe lines while you tech up to templars but you can never actually kill a critical amount of mutas without storm. Phoenix are not viable against mass mutas either. Ask yourself, if phoenix is such a godly hard-counter to muta play, then why does noone ever use them against mass mutalisks? because they are not effective, mutas perform way too good in high numbers and its impossible to keep up with zergs production rate.
While your theory is correct, I fail to see how this is relevant to the removal of the Amulet upgrade.
In BW dragoon sucked against mutas just as stalkers do now, yet BW toss survived without Kaydarin Amulet.
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On February 26 2011 10:26 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 10:25 raf3776 wrote:On February 26 2011 10:24 ribboo wrote:On February 26 2011 10:23 Frack wrote:
AMULET IS GONE omg if true ;O If thats true... that would be so dumb No it's not. Amulet is way too good when combined with warp in.
I feel amulet is not a bad spell at heart, it's just the combination with warp in as stated above. What if amulet only worked if the HT were produced from gateway (NOT warpgate)? It would be kind of cool to see people actually use the gateway past the first few minutes of the game. Maybe they'll do something like that in hots?
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On February 28 2011 15:12 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 15:00 dark fury wrote:
So you are suggesting mass stalker against roach/muta? im assuming you either dont play protoss very often or just dont play much at all. Blink stalker is not a cost effective answer to mass muta, you get blink stalkers to help defend your cannoned probe lines while you tech up to templars but you can never actually kill a critical amount of mutas without storm. Phoenix are not viable against mass mutas either. Ask yourself, if phoenix is such a godly hard-counter to muta play, then why does noone ever use them against mass mutalisks? because they are not effective, mutas perform way too good in high numbers and its impossible to keep up with zergs production rate. While your theory is correct, I fail to see how this is relevant to the removal of the Amulet upgrade. In BW dragoon sucked against mutas just as stalkers do now, yet BW toss survived without Kaydarin Amulet.
I fail to see how comparing things to BW is relevant to anything. in BW you could get templars much earlier, storms had larger radius, mutas had much slower acceleration speed and templars didnt have to wait for 45 seconds before they could cast storm.
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So there was this flying unit with splash in brood war... what was it? It was pretty key to some strategies to keep down the zerg's muta count even with scourge...
Also dragoons were pretty damn effective. Albiet they didn't stop crap like Shiine making it to places he should have never gotten to, but they scared off a lot of muta harass.
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And without storm, protoss literally can't deal with large groups of mutalisks. Blink stalkers only do okay while the mutalisks are in small-medium numbers, but only at defending small, critical locations. They just do shit for damage against mutas.
Chill out n00b. They did NOT remove the storm spell. They only removed an upgrade so now you have to preemptively make HTs, how unfair is that i guess huh? Just like the old times in BW.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
