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On February 28 2011 14:10 idonthinksobro wrote:
its a good thing that they remove the amulet - and i hope they dont revert this. Anyone that knows anything about the current state of PvT should know why this change is needed.
The problem is once protoss gets maxed in a PvT terran has a really hard time to do anything. Its actually easier to do something against the deathball as a zerg player.
You cant base race because storms kill off everything so cost efficient , you cant really engage with mass bio vs a deathball. Dropping seems to be pointless as well - just warp in a single templar 16 maruader instant death. If you go for heavy mech style colossi + phenix or blink stalkers are almost impossible to deal with.
Iam a random diamond player and whenever i roll a TvP i just do a 2banshee 1 raven 6 tank marines + scv allin because that matchup feels so broken.
you area saying there is a problem because the protoss player gets either the counter to the terran unit composition or the pro toss t3 tech is more powerful that terrans t1 units? hmmm good point, the game is defiantly imbalanced. instead of just doing cheesy all in builds try actually playing and get better
*note just a thought for terran players maurader medivac viking as a pretty good counter to templar tech if you are good with unit control and can dodge storms well-
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Well this is how I see the changes:
Removal of archon toilet - Very much needed nerf. The archon toilet was basically a "GG, I win button". The mothership must find some usefulness in other ways.
If you have ever been the victim of an archon toilet, like I have, you will know just how ridiculous it is.
Removal of amulet - Protoss needed a late game nerf besides the archon toilet removal. Whether this is the right nerf remains to be seen. I still think high templars will get used reguarly.
To kind of compensate for the HT nerf, charging zealots will now always hit their target at least once. It makes sense in my world and the charge upgrade may now be usefull in the mid game and not just the late game.
Stimpack research time increased - Finally! really about time Blizzard. No more insanely early timing pushes before Z or P even have units out.
Battlecruiser speed increased - The BC needed a buff and I think this i a step in the right direction to make terran players tech to late game instead of sitting on tier 1/2 units all game long.
Infestor nerf - I´ve played a lot of team games and I use heavy infestor play in 90% of the games. They are just insanely good truth be told. From a 1v1 pov the nerf might not make sense but for team games, this nerf is needed. If the zerg player is really good the infestor will still be an asset to every army compostion out there, incl. 1on1.
Notifications to make the macro easier - Imo the focus of a RTS game should be strategy, positioning and micro. If a player is superior in these aspects against his opponent he shouldnt lose the game cause his macro is slightly worse than his opponent and I guess this is Blizzards thoughts behind this.
Summary - On paper ALL of these changes look absolutely fantastic. I hope they turn out the way they are intended.
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has anyone succeded with new infestors so far? Is it any good vs stalkers/mmm/roaches?
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So, if the DPS of Fungal Growth is doubled, does that mean that mass medivacs aren't able to keep marines alive even after successive fungals?
The DPS buff is nice but the main reason I use infestors is because they hold stuff in place. How else can you catch stimmed marines?
A lot of radical changes in there. I don't expect all of them to make the final cut.
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On February 28 2011 16:58 DeCoder wrote:
So, if the DPS of Fungal Growth is doubled, does that mean that mass medivacs aren't able to keep marines alive even after successive fungals?
The DPS buff is nice but the main reason I use infestors is because they hold stuff in place. How else can you catch stimmed marines?
A lot of radical changes there. I don't expect all of them to make the final cut.
fungal dps 12
medivac hps 12.5
i think...
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On February 28 2011 16:44 DaCruise wrote:
Well this is how I see the changes:
Infestor nerf - I´ve played a lot of team games and I use heavy infestor play in 90% of the games. They are just insanely good truth be told. From a 1v1 pov the nerf might not make sense but for team games, this nerf is needed. If the zerg player is really good the infestor will still be an asset to every army compostion out there, incl. 1on1.
Notifications to make the macro easier - Imo the focus of a RTS game should be strategy, positioning and micro. If a player is superior in these aspects against his opponent he shouldnt lose the game cause his macro is slightly worse than his opponent and I guess this is Blizzards thoughts behind this.
i dont agree with you on these 2 points. Macro and remember to macro and constanly checking production is/was part of sc1/2. Great players are great players cause they remember to do alot of things under high presure. In sc2, the game is becoming more casual than sc:bw. Fair enough, no qqing here, but to give some1 a tool to be ignorant to your macro and still get alerted that you need to do macro again is a way to make this game again abit easier. (it wil help my macro alot lol, hands down).
As to balance sc2 1v1 and 2v2. Blizzard wanted to keep the 1v1 as sacred as posible. But with this nerf to infester they (again) dont honor this statement. That it is logical in 2v2 is 1 thing, but to unbalance 1v1 even more i just donr understand that. I dont want to see Fungle vs a ZvZ mass mutalisking player. With the new fungle, its imposible to hit (asuming 2 Pro's are playing).
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On February 28 2011 16:44 DaCruise wrote:
Well this is how I see the changes:
Removal of archon toilet - Very much needed nerf. The archon toilet was basically a "GG, I win button". The mothership must find some usefulness in other ways.
If you have ever been the victim of an archon toilet, like I have, you will know just how ridiculous it is.
Removal of amulet - Protoss needed a late game nerf besides the archon toilet removal. Whether this is the right nerf remains to be seen. I still think high templars will get used reguarly.
To kind of compensate for the HT nerf, charging zealots will now always hit their target at least once. It makes sense in my world and the charge upgrade may now be usefull in the mid game and not just the late game.
Stimpack research time increased - Finally! really about time Blizzard. No more insanely early timing pushes before Z or P even have units out.
Battlecruiser speed increased - The BC needed a buff and I think this i a step in the right direction to make terran players tech to late game instead of sitting on tier 1/2 units all game long.
Infestor nerf - I´ve played a lot of team games and I use heavy infestor play in 90% of the games. They are just insanely good truth be told. From a 1v1 pov the nerf might not make sense but for team games, this nerf is needed. If the zerg player is really good the infestor will still be an asset to every army compostion out there, incl. 1on1.
Notifications to make the macro easier - Imo the focus of a RTS game should be strategy, positioning and micro. If a player is superior in these aspects against his opponent he shouldnt lose the game cause his macro is slightly worse than his opponent and I guess this is Blizzards thoughts behind this.
Summary - On paper ALL of these changes look absolutely fantastic. I hope they turn out the way they are intended.
I'm not sure what games you've been watching or playing but pretty much every single pro SC2 player, be it Terran, Zerg, or Protoss, have been complaining about Protoss being extremely one-dimensional in that colossi tech is pretty much the only tech route to go. DTs and HTs are occasionally teched to, but they never form the bulk of any non-cheesy strategy.
Blizzard themselves have been saying that Protoss relies too heavily on the colossus and they respond by nerfing and making the other two tech trees less appealing? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Regarding the archon toilet: Yea, it was probably a little ridiculous, but there were much better ways to deal with it. For one, 1.5 second invulnerability means that the enemy's army now has 1.5 seconds to freely whack away at yours. In addition, vortex was a messed up spell in the first place due to the fact that its role as a crowd-controlling spell is undermined by the fact that the enemy can simply walk his entire army into the vortex, which basically just delays the engagement.
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On February 28 2011 16:59 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 16:58 DeCoder wrote:
So, if the DPS of Fungal Growth is doubled, does that mean that mass medivacs aren't able to keep marines alive even after successive fungals?
The DPS buff is nice but the main reason I use infestors is because they hold stuff in place. How else can you catch stimmed marines?
A lot of radical changes there. I don't expect all of them to make the final cut. fungal dps 12 medivac hps 12.5 i think...
36 / 4 = 9 != 12
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Revert the HT change to how it was in BW and nerf the Collosus to encourage varying tech IMO.
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On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for.
I don't think you've ever played BW....
The ammulet in BW increased the maximum energy of templars to 250 from 200, but it didn't increase the starting energy. All templars spawned with 50 energy, regardless if they had the upgrade or not....
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On February 28 2011 17:28 Lucid90 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for. I don't think you've ever played BW.... The ammulet in BW increased the maximum energy of templars to 250 from 200, but it didn't increase the starting energy. All templars spawned with 50 energy, regardless if they had the upgrade or not....
*edit*
I don't know where you guys are getting this 62 energy thing, but I just oppened up sc and checked, and for me before the upgrade and after it the templar starts with 50 energy. I don't remember the templar ever starting with 62 energy for as long as I've been playing BW. Please correct me if Im wrong.
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On February 28 2011 17:28 Lucid90 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for. I don't think you've ever played BW.... The amulet in BW increased the maximum energy of templars to 250 from 200, but it didn't increase the starting energy. All templars spawned with 50 energy, regardless if they had the upgrade or not....
As been said before, it increased the maximum energy to 250, but all caster units in BW spawned with 25% of their maximum energy. 25% * 250 = ~62 energy.
Edit: From Liquipedia (SCBW)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Upgrades
Energy Upgrades: Increase the maximum energy for the caster from 200 to 250. Also increases the Energy when spawning from 50 to 62.5 (except for Dark Archons, as they technically don't spawn), but only if the upgrade was finished before unit making was begun.
I personally think that a reduction to the energy of all +starting energy upgrades to +20 instead of +25 would've made no difference to anyone but Protoss, but would've made the 'instant-warp-in-storm' less of an issue. As it is, I shall be building only the hated colossi.
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On February 28 2011 17:32 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 17:28 Lucid90 wrote:On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for. I don't think you've ever played BW.... The ammulet in BW increased the maximum energy of templars to 250 from 200, but it didn't increase the starting energy. All templars spawned with 50 energy, regardless if they had the upgrade or not.... As been said before, it increased the maximum energy to 250, but all caster units in BW spawned with 25% of their maximum energy. 25% * 250 = ~62 energy. I personally think that a reduction to the energy of all +starting energy upgrades to +20 instead of +25 would've made no difference to anyone but Protoss, but would've made the 'instant-warp-in-storm' less of an issue. As it is, I shall be building only the hated colossi.
But it doesn't, I just oppened but sc and checked, all templars spawn with 50 energy regardless of the upgrade or not, this 25% of the energy spawned is not true.
Go play BW and check for your self
*edit*
I just checked again, it ended up being 62 starting energy. The first time I checked they started with 50 energy after the research was complete, but that was because I started the HT unit before the upgrade was finished. When I started the HT after the upgrade was finished, it ended up being 62.
My mistake, I didn't know.
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On February 28 2011 17:35 Lucid90 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 17:32 Aequos wrote:On February 28 2011 17:28 Lucid90 wrote:On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for. I don't think you've ever played BW.... The ammulet in BW increased the maximum energy of templars to 250 from 200, but it didn't increase the starting energy. All templars spawned with 50 energy, regardless if they had the upgrade or not.... As been said before, it increased the maximum energy to 250, but all caster units in BW spawned with 25% of their maximum energy. 25% * 250 = ~62 energy. I personally think that a reduction to the energy of all +starting energy upgrades to +20 instead of +25 would've made no difference to anyone but Protoss, but would've made the 'instant-warp-in-storm' less of an issue. As it is, I shall be building only the hated colossi. But it doesn't, I just oppened but sc and checked, all templars spawn with 50 energy regardless of the upgrade or not, this 25% of the energy spawned is not true. Go play BW and check for your self
What? I just tested it and it was 62.
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HTs are still very viable due to feedback. Medivacs get 1 shotted all the time and they are really expensive. Wouldn't mind a buff to archon to make up for this - but I like the idea of removing the terran advantage early and the protoss advantage late.
Thumbs up for this patch. The point is to give all races a fair shot at all points of the game.
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I'm not such a big fan of the amulet removal. It forces Toss to go gateway even more. I don't think a nerf was needed, though a small nerf could satisfy late game complaints from T, but nothing as big as the removal should be implemented when you have EMP so easily nullify HT's.
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i just thought of something.
call me nub, but why did they change FG into a missle cast? that means it can be picked off by point defence drones, am i right?
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What bothers me the most is the recent trend at Blizzard to just REMOVE stuff that turned out to be problematic.
Yes, I as a toss player admit that some warped in templars late-game can really finish a game even if the terran has macroed well the whole time. There's something wrong about that, definitely. Nevertheless simply REMOVING a strategic option is, in my humble opinion, never a good approach to anything. Flux vanes were insanely strong vs zerg lategame, and still, just removing them lowered the amount of strategies available. So will the removal of the amulet.
I would really prefer if Blizz tried to fix supposedly imbalanced upgrades/etc. by either reworking it or buffing counters. For example, why not add a expensive upgrade for ghosts that increases the radious of EMP? So that one ghost might get more templars? Just some crazy thinking, but this would actually increase the strategic depth of the game, removing stuff always decreases it...by...well...definition, you could say.
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Guys, do you think the vortex change can be abused?
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ya....cast it on your own units and get 1.5 seconds of invulnerability 20 seconds later....nah....i dont think it could be abused :D
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EPT
